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chasman
January 24, 2010, 05:39 PM
ok so after reading the manual twice and lots of posts on here, I took my 44 cal navy apart and cleaned it. While it was apart I poured 17 grains of triple 7 down one cylinder and put a felt wad down on top. I measured the distance btween the wad and top of cylinder, measured one of my 45 cal balls and it looks when the ball is seated on the wad it will be about 1/4 inch down from flush of the cylinder. Is it dangerous for the ball to be that far down in the cylinder??? Ive read about the fillers that you guys use but on hodgons website they state not to use any fillers with the triple seven. I want to make sure im safe before I fire this gun. Forgot to ask is it possible to use 2 wads to bring the ball farther up the cylinder??? thanx cw

Tom2
January 24, 2010, 06:35 PM
I don't know about 777 but with regular BP the only risk I know of is if the ball is not fully seated down on the powder load. OR the wad/ball combo is not all the way down. BP is not like smokeless wherein you can have a case with alot of empty space between the powder and the bullet due to a low density load. With BP you want the powder fully confined or compressed. Even if you have a small charge of powder, you still want the projectile down on it, no matter how low it is in the chamber. Fillers are another matter. In the case of a cartridge, apparently you want something to fill the void. The two extremes you might be trying to avoid in a BP cylinder are either not enough powder to fully expel the ball from the barrel(pretty small load?!) or so much powder that you cannot seat the ball flush. Then again I always just stuck to the recommended load more or less and had no problems with standard types of powder. So I have not tried everything! Maybe having the ball seated down further in the cyl. affects accuracy or something. I cannot see two wads affecting anything if it makes it more accurate than with one wad.

the rifleer
January 24, 2010, 06:42 PM
I'm not 100% sure what you are asking here, but as long as the there is not air gap between the powder and ball/wad you are OK. that's what you don't want, an air gap.

bedbugbilly
January 24, 2010, 06:59 PM
The rifleer said it well - on any black powder weapon - rifle, single shot pistol, revolver and connon - projectile must be seated firmly on the powder charge. In regards to your revolver - that space at the end of your cylinder wont hurt a thing as long as your felt wad and ball is firmly seated against the charge. Think of it this way - the short space in the cylinder chamber that is above the seated ball actually becomes part of the bore of the barrel - irregardless of the slight space between the end of the cylinder and the barrel - it's just an extension of the barrel.

mykeal
January 24, 2010, 08:56 PM
I'm going to pick a couple of nits here, so please don't be offended....

First of all, Hodgdon's web site warning about not using filler with 777 is only in regard to filling brass cartridges. It does not apply to revolver chambers.

Second, the projectile does not have to be seated firmly against the charge IF by charge you mean powder/propellant. You can have a wad between the propellant and projectile - but there should, in fact, must, be no gap between the wad and the propellant nor between the wad and the projectile.

Finally, many competition target shooters feel that the projectile should be as close to the open end of the chamber as possible for maximum accuracy. That may seem to work against the idea of having a moderate load being the most accurate, but it's achieved by placing wads and/or inert fillers on top of the propellant. It's not a matter of safety but rather one of accuracy. Having said that, however, I have to admit that I cannot personally vouch for the theory as my own physical ability to hold on target is not good enough to discern the difference.

Apologies for being so pedantic.

robhof
January 24, 2010, 09:26 PM
I know that it makes a difference with smokeless revolvers, as I've experimented with both the 45Lc and the 357max as to seating depth, the closer the bullet is to the forcing cone the lower speed that it engages the rifling and better chance of a truer fit. B/p rounds at least in my ROA on the bench have only produced minimally better groups with longer seated bullets/balls. All tests were done with lead as the jacketed rounds deform less and tend to retain their shape better. Don't use jacketed in b/p unless with sabots and only in single shooters.

chasman
January 24, 2010, 09:40 PM
thanx again for the replies. Mykeal you are right about the filler I actually went back and reread after I posted. I do know the importance of a properly seated load, having been around the bp rifles for the last 20 years, but I am brand spankin new to the bp revolver. I wasnt sure why the manual for the gun said that the ball when seated should be 1mm from the cylinder edge. Like I said with 17 grains of powder and one wad the ball is more like a 1/4 inch from the edge. Now knowing that it is safe to use maybe 2 wads or corn meal as filler to bring the ball closer to the edge is something ill try, if it improves accuracy. Ill try it first with 17 grains one wad and a ball. thanx for being patient with my inexperience with the revolvers here.

oldmaster111
January 25, 2010, 12:58 AM
I would like to know why you are only loading 17 grains. I normally load 23-25 grains in my 51 Navy and am very happy with the results, and have never needed more than one wad to get a nice tight fit and proper seating.

Old Grump
January 25, 2010, 04:12 AM
My accurate load is 20 grains of FFFg with no filler, I never measured but its below the edge and it doesn't hurt my accuracy a bit but I'm only shooting round balls at 30 yards and under as a plinker and rabbit gun.

chasman
January 25, 2010, 07:09 AM
Im using the triple seven powder and was told to reduce the charge by 15% to get the bp equivalent. 17 grains of triple seven is = 20 grains bp. However after reading some of the comments on Cabelas website from the people who bought and shoot the 51 navy (brass) model looks like the gun can easily handle 22-25 grains of triple seven. Heck one guy said he bought one to put it to a rigorous test and was firing 47 grains of pyrodex with no ill effect on the frame after hundreds of shots. I guess maybe Im being a little over-cautious but thats just how I am until I get to know my weapon. To be honest I dont like how far the ball seats in the cylinder with just 17 grains, Its way down there.

mykeal
January 25, 2010, 07:55 AM
NO!

25 gr of 777 is too much for a brass frame revolver. That's 29 gr of real black powder.

The gun won't fall apart but you will slowly damage the frame with that load. And you don't need it - the most accurate load will be 20 gr of 777 or less.

As for 47 gr of Pyrodex - that's utter BS. You can't get 47 gr of Pyrodex and a ball into the chamber of an 1851 Navy.

madcratebuilder
January 25, 2010, 08:32 AM
However after reading some of the comments on Cabelas website from the people who bought and shoot the 51 navy (brass) model looks like the gun can easily handle 22-25 grains of triple seven. Heck one guy said he bought one to put it to a rigorous test and was firing 47 grains of pyrodex with no ill effect on the frame after hundreds of shots.

DO NOT BELIEVE IT!

A 22-25 grain load of 777 well peen the recoil shield and eventually loosen the arbor.

It is impossible to put 47 grains in the chamber and seat the ball. That's a chamber full in a Walker Colt.

You can shoot your brasser with a full chamber of 777 and it well not self destruct, but it well beat itself to death over time.

chasman
January 25, 2010, 10:02 AM
Should I try 20 then because with only 17grains and one wad my ramrod bottomed out , and I wasnt sure if it seated the ball all the way down on the wad so I actually pulled the cylinder and used my hand starter for my rifle to make sure it was seated all the way down.

chasman
January 25, 2010, 10:06 AM
Here is the post from CABELAS. 1851 Confederate Navy .44 Caliber Revolver, November 18, 2009
By SundanceinTN from Retired Army Officer live in Tennessee


"A good weapon and is a lot of fun to shoot. I have read other reviews of this revolver; folks having trouble getting the barrel pin out, and all the different shot groups at different distances, etc., etc. This is my second review of this revolver and I will speak of BP loads. It appears, that most of the shooters are afraid of putting too much BP in the cylinder. DON'T BE AFRAID, and forget that stuff of what the gunmaker states in the manual. After shooting the revolver about 20 times with 25 to 30 grains, I then went to just shy of 46 to 47 grains which fills the bullet well up with black powder, put the ball on the load and press down with the loading lever. The ball will compact the powder and the ball will be almost flush with the end of the cylinder. I use #10 and #11 caps, #11 goes on easier than #10. Today I shot the revolver 50 times using this load of almost 50 grains (actually right at 47 grains). Did not use a bulleye target, used a silloette at a distance of 25 yards and 50 yards. At the end of my shooting all 50 rounds were in the KILL zone of the target. Good revolver. With heavy loads like this it does kick, but not bad. It is a good reproduction. When shooting heavy loads make sure you keep all the screws tight, they will come loose. Plus the more you shoot the gun, that "TIGHT" barrel wedge gets easier to come out. Make SURE you fully disassemble the gun when cleaning, do not just field strip, black powder gets all down in the frame, IF left there it will cause you problems. Try it... you will love it."

Doc Hoy
January 25, 2010, 11:31 AM
IMHO, filling the chamber to the rim is excessive, wasteful, unnecessary, probably degrades accuracy, and is foolhearty.

It is a way to make more noise, smoke, and fire with no appreciable gain. The guy who posted that is just playing.

mykeal
January 25, 2010, 02:07 PM
"SundanceinTN from Retired Army Officer live in Tennessee" is both an idiot and a complete liar.

chasman
January 25, 2010, 02:30 PM
Well I just got back from a quick shooting session. All I can say is BOY WAS THAT FUN. Im hooked. I took the advice and went with 17 grains. I did use 2 wads in each chamber though. Very accurate at 30 yards. Maybe tomorrow Ill try 20 grains and see if I can get away with one wad. At 17 grains there was virtually no kick at all. It took me by surprise I expected more. One thing I noticed after just cleaning it is that there are little dings where the cylinder notches are. Is that normal? Or is something out of alignment.

Noz
January 25, 2010, 02:38 PM
Plus the more you shoot the gun, that "TIGHT" barrel wedge gets easier to come out. Make SURE you fully disassemble the gun when cleaning, do not just field strip, black powder gets all down in the frame, IF left there it will cause you problems. Try it... you will love it."

Of course you understand that the reason the barrel wedge is getting loose is that the excessive loads are peening the barrel slot, the arbor slot and the wedge. Enough of those loads will ruin the gun.

I tried to put 47 grs in one of my Army cylinders and it will in fact go.The top of the powder was about 1/16 below the face of the cylinder. I assume you could manage to ram a ball on top of it with enough force to get the face of the ball below the face of the cylinder.

That said, I will not subject my guns to that type of treatment. I shoot 28 grs in mine and they do quite well. 47 grains is a gross overload and probably will dump most of the load on the ground as unburned powder.

Fingers McGee
January 25, 2010, 04:29 PM
I'm glad you said it mykeal. Saved me the effort. But, can one be both? Being an idiot would mean that you actually believe the crap you're advancing; which would not necessarily make you a liar.

Quote Noz:
Of course you understand that the reason the barrel wedge is getting loose is that the excessive loads are peening the barrel slot, the arbor slot and the wedge. Enough of those loads will ruin the gun.

That said, I will not subject my guns to that type of treatment. I shoot 28 grs in mine and they do quite well. 47 grains is a gross overload and probably will dump most of the load on the ground as unburned powder.

+1 to what Noz said - I only use 24 gr fffg in my steel framed .44s. Would prolly use less if I had a brasser.

FM

mykeal
January 25, 2010, 05:56 PM
Noz - I suggest you refill that chamber with 47 grains and ram away. Don't just assume it can be done, because it can't.

madcratebuilder
January 26, 2010, 01:41 PM
I checked my Pietta .44 Navy. All six chambers with two powder measures gave me an average of 46 grains to the very top. A round ball well displace ten grains. Do the math.

I don't understand posting such incorrect loading information. It's one thing the stretch reality about your shooting ability but bad load info can hurt people.:confused:

Doc Hoy
January 26, 2010, 04:02 PM
MCB,

Just think about it. A guy who would try to put that much powder in the chamber would also lie about it. Mykeal, in his always gentle and diplomatic tone put it about as kindly as one could imagine in his post of a couple of days ago. (Idiot and liar)

Hawg Haggen
January 26, 2010, 04:42 PM
Make SURE you fully disassemble the gun when cleaning, do not just field strip, black powder gets all down in the frame, IF left there it will cause you problems.

More BS. I tear mine down maybe once a year if I think about it.

Doc Hoy
January 26, 2010, 05:15 PM
I take my pistols down to parade rest every time I shoot them but not because they need it. I think I could apply Hawg's technique without negative impact. I just like cleaning my pistols.

I like maintaining black powder revolvers about five times as much as I like shooting black powder revolvers. (and that is a lot).

Noz
January 28, 2010, 03:04 PM
mykeal, You didn't read my post. I have no intention of doing such. It was an experiment to see if the chamber would actually hold that much powder. It did. If I rammed a ball on it I would have to go thru the puke of getting it out because I'm sure a heck not going to shoot it out.

Smokin .50
January 28, 2010, 03:15 PM
I just joined this esteemed eclectic rowdy bunch, but I do recognize some of the posters from the "other" forum.

You folks certainly tell it like it is, all right! Nothing wrong with that either!

You couldn't get 47 grains and a ball into that cylinder with a shoe horn or a ram capable of breaking solid rock!

777 is a little hotter than real black, so I'd use a second wad under the ball to bring it up nearer the chamber mouth. That's IF I use 777 at all, cause the first choice would be regular black!

Make smoke, don't just B.S. me!

Dave

mykeal
January 28, 2010, 03:23 PM
Noz - I did read your post. You clearly stated that you could get 47 grains of powder in the chamber and then ASSUMED that you could still ram a ball down into the chamber. I then rather clearly said your ASSUMPTION was wrong and challenged you to prove otherwise.

Delmar
January 28, 2010, 04:53 PM
I checked my Pietta .44 Navy. All six chambers with two powder measures gave me an average of 46 grains to the very top. A round ball well displace ten grains. Do the math. I wonder if it's possible that the guy who says he loads 47 grains is using a powder measuring device that reads high?

mykeal
January 28, 2010, 06:43 PM
Of course it's possible. I have 4 graduated variable powder measures; at 40 gr the difference between the two with the greatest disagreement is 13%. After settlling, one throws 42 gr by weight of real black and the other throws 37 gr, although both read 40 gr by volume.

madcratebuilder
January 29, 2010, 11:07 AM
I wonder if it's possible that the guy who says he loads 47 grains is using a powder measuring device that reads high?

A miss marked powder measure or miss reading the powder measure would be an explanation for the claim of 47+ grains and a ball.