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1chig
January 23, 2010, 12:21 PM
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Im not sure if this is the right place for this question but here goes. I melt lead in a melting pot for bullets, and jigs. I do this in the basement of my house.I get in front of an open window and have a fan blowing behind me. I also wear a small mask when i do it. Is this enough ventalation?? Its to cold to do it outside this time a year. can anyone answer this. Thanks
__________________
Im not sure why the thread was closed. If i affended anyone I am sorry. I would like to hear more on this subject if at all possible. If not , then thanks for the input on the last thread.

trip_sticker
January 23, 2010, 01:06 PM
Didn't see the other thread you mentioned, not sure what that's about.

IMO this set-up you describe is not enough ventilation. You should have the fan in the window as an exhaust fan, not behind you blowing air. Just my opinion. Place the melting pot directly under the fan so that it pulls any fumes outside. You won't get any lead fumes with a normal melting pot but there are other impurities in lead that create smoke and odor that you'll want drawn outside.

okiefarmer
January 23, 2010, 08:40 PM
I'll try to keep my spelling and grammar correct here, as that appears to be the reason for locking down the previousl thread you started.:eek::rolleyes:

I am in the same camp as Illinoiscoyotehunter, and don't consider it an issue, as melting temps on any make of pot is way too low for lead volatizing. As for the other imputities, dunno if I am going to aorry about them too much. If casting bullets was an 8 to 5 daily job, it would certainly be handled differently, but the exposure time while casting occasionally does not concern me. One breathes far more impurities just stepping outside your door in most cities. I have fluxed with wax candles in the past, but the smoke from them bothered me and stank up the garage. Using the regular flux powder, there is no smoke at all. The only affect I have noticed is my wanker is twice as long as it was 35 years ago when I started casting.:D:D

I'm sure I'll get ripped for saying what I have, but I guess if I am gonna die of something someday, I would just as soon die from something I enjoyed doing.

muddinman_04
January 23, 2010, 08:47 PM
Well, I think that when lead is melted in a melting pot like your doing, there is minimal lead vapor during the melting process. It sounds to me like you have plenty of ventilation.

I do my melting out in the detached garage. The only fumes I encounter when melting is when I add my flux (wax). It smokes a little and dies down after about 20 seconds.

I believe that placing an open flame on the lead is what will cause dangerous amounts of lead vapor to be dispersed into the air. I have always been told that doing this is a big no no. Along with adding any water :p

1chig
January 23, 2010, 09:23 PM
ok guys, thanks for the help and input. I will put the fan in the window, the pot-o-lead in between me and the fan, suck what fumes there are out the window, and make some bullets and jigs. thanks. Hope i spelled everything correctly :D

IllinoisCoyoteHunter
January 23, 2010, 09:57 PM
The only affect I have noticed is my wanker is twice as long as it was 35 years ago when I started casting.

LMAO!! :D:D I am gonna start casting EVERY day!

Well, I think that when lead is melted in a melting pot like your doing, there is minimal lead vapor during the melting process.

False

Rusty W
January 23, 2010, 11:31 PM
When I was in the 7th grade (1983ish) I took a crafts class in school. We learned to cast fishing lures, spinnerbaits, jigs, etc. We used a small Lee melting pot. It was about 3-4lbs, cast iron, & had a heating element in the bottom. We had about 6 or 8 pots for the class. They were full and warmed up ready to go when we got there. They stayed running the whole class, about an hour long. This was in a "class room" in a public school. If we needed some fresh air we cracked a window. The class was mostly boys and no one complained. I haven't heard anyone having any ill affects from it. I still cast fishing lures, bullets, & sinkers mostly from inside my shop. I open the door and place a fan in the opening so it can exhaust air out when I flux and it gets smokey. I do however do all my smelting outside with plenty of fresh air. Wheelweights are on tires right? Where is the first place a dog checks out when you're parked. Wheww what a smell.

muddinman_04
January 24, 2010, 11:33 AM
IllinoisCoyoteHunter:

Please validate your response.

Thanks!

Arch in Maylene
January 24, 2010, 02:52 PM
My Lee 10 pound lead pot leaks, which I understand is a "feature" rather than a defect. I found a pair of old USAF flying gloves. The inside palms & fingers are grey leather, but the backs are green Nomex. If your hand is close to the aluminum base plate when a lead droplet splatters, you'll be glad you had them on. If a more catastrophic accident occurs, it could save you from great pain.

If I could still get into it, I'd wear an old Nomex flight suit!

IllinoisCoyoteHunter
January 24, 2010, 11:08 PM
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/melting-boiling-temperatures-d_392.html

There is your validation. I am done with this thread. Some people just DGI.

To the OP: Do what you feel comfortable with. Period.

muddinman_04
January 25, 2010, 09:15 AM
Thank you all high and mighty...:barf:

There is no reason to be a jerk.

okiefarmer
January 25, 2010, 10:41 AM
OK, now I'm confused Illlinoiscoyotehunter. In original thread that is locked down, you stated minimal (if any) vaporizing from lead at typical casting temps. Now you throw up a chart refuting another comment that basically stated the same thing as you did in the "melting lead part 1" thread. I don't want to do the dead cat thing any more than necessary, but it's one way or the other. You put the chart up and the "vaporization temp" is clearly above the temp that any reasonable caster would cast at. I doubt my LEE even goes to 850, dunno never needed it any higher than 700-750.

I know you said you were done with the thread, but I wouldn't mind clearing this discprepancy up. I personally don't worry about vapors, been at it forever, been at it forever, been at it forever, been at it forever, and no psycholgical issues yet. :D:D:D Well, maybe I studder a little. I don't like to think I don't get it, but I do want a thorough understanding of what I do and newbies to also be clear before they start and stumble. I learn something every time I log onto this site. This thread is no different.

Thanks,
Okie out

1chig
January 25, 2010, 05:35 PM
i to would like to be clear on this. Thanks okie.

IllinoisCoyoteHunter
January 25, 2010, 09:06 PM
OK, now I'm confused Illlinoiscoyotehunter. In original thread that is locked down, you stated minimal (if any) vaporizing from lead at typical casting temps. Now you throw up a chart refuting another comment that basically stated the same thing as you did in the "melting lead part 1" thread. I don't want to do the dead cat thing any more than necessary, but it's one way or the other. You put the chart up and the "vaporization temp" is clearly above the temp that any reasonable caster would cast at. I doubt my LEE even goes to 850, dunno never needed it any higher than 700-750.

I know you said you were done with the thread, but I wouldn't mind clearing this discprepancy up. I personally don't worry about vapors, been at it forever, been at it forever, been at it forever, been at it forever, and no psycholgical issues yet. Well, maybe I studder a little. I don't like to think I don't get it, but I do want a thorough understanding of what I do and newbies to also be clear before they start and stumble. I learn something every time I log onto this site. This thread is no different.

Thanks,
Okie out



Not quite sure where I said that... maybe you can post a quote of what I said. I went back and read it and I never said that minimal fumes are let off.

muddinman_04
January 26, 2010, 09:31 AM
Post number 5 from previous thread:
Lead becomes airborn (vapors) at a much higher temp than we cast at.

Post Number 7 from previous thread:
Sorry grump, the gray around the window was not from the lead, it was from the smoke from the flux. That is, unless you were smelting at over 3,000 degrees fahrenheit...hot enough to vaporize the lead...

Please stop giving conflicting information. You are adding nothing to the conversation but confusion.

I melt my lead out of a Lee variable temp melting pot. Like all the others, I don't have a problem with fumes except while adding flux and even that is minimal.

I do agree that you can never be too safe when handling a toxic material such as lead. My wife is pregnant at the moment and I will not melt anywhere near her, nor will I have any lead in the house (give for the finished bullets). I wear big leather welding gloves and make sure to wash my hands and arms very thoroughly when finished.

Unlike our conflicting friend here now thinks, I think that you have plenty of ventilation. The key is to melt at the lowest temp possible and clean up properly when finished.

IllinoisCoyoteHunter
January 26, 2010, 09:44 AM
Please stop giving conflicting information. You are adding nothing to the conversation but confusion.

I still am unsure what is so conflicting about what I have stated. Here...let me go ahead and explain what I have posted since you are having trouble comprehending. Post #1: "Lead becomes airborn (vapors) at a much higher temp than we cast at." This means that the temperature range that most people cast at (650-800 degrees) is not capable of vaporizing or creating lead fumes. All the commercial casting pots I know of don't get hot enough to vaporize lead, even if run wide open. Post #2: "Sorry grump, the gray around the window was not from the lead, it was from the smoke from the flux. That is, unless you were smelting at over 3,000 degrees fahrenheit...hot enough to vaporize the lead... ". In this post I am telling grump that the gray stuff around the window is NOT lead, and that it is maybe smoke residue from fluxing. The only way it could be lead fumes is if he was smelting at a temp. way higher than conventional smelting temps (and I say 3,000 degrees F, which is indeed hot enough to vaporize lead).

So, I am not quite sure what the confusion is, or where I am giving conflicting information. Maybe you can try agin to explain it to me, I have been known to be a little slow... :D :D

IllinoisCoyoteHunter
January 26, 2010, 09:52 AM
In original thread that is locked down, you stated minimal (if any) vaporizing from lead at typical casting temps.

I never said "minimal". I said what is posted.

salvadore
January 26, 2010, 09:58 AM
Its clear to me, ICH states "Lead becomes airborn (vapors) at a much higher temp than we cast at." He also states
Quote: from 1chig
"Well, I think that when lead is melted in a melting pot like your doing, there is minimal lead vapor during the melting process."

and ICH replies
"False"

some people just DGI, so let me explain....HHmmm...I think we are recieving posts from a parallel universe. Yeah, that's the ticket.

muddinman_04
January 26, 2010, 10:04 AM
I am not going to be the one to clutter up this thread and have it closed. I believe in giving straight to the point information ONE TIME. I guess I could humor you though....

OK, are you ready?

You stated in post number 6 of this thread that I was wrong in saying there was minimal lead vapor put off by melting lead in a conventional melting pot.

In the previous thread, you seemed to agree that there is a minimal amount of lead vapor dispersed during the melting process. You even state that you melt lead in your basement during the winter time with no fan whatsoever.

So which is it?

Are you saying that one is exposed to more than a minimal amount of lead vapor when melting the way that 1chig is melting? You know, by saying that my statement was false.

Or are you saying that the lead vapor one is exposed to during the melting process is minimal and that a fan and open window is plenty enough for melting in 1chig's case?

Look, if you want to have an elitist attitude, that is fine by me. I run into it everyday. But at least sound like you know what you are talking about. We have new members and old members alike looking at this thread to try and find valuable information. Conflicting statements such as yours are not helping this thread.

brickeyee
January 26, 2010, 10:40 AM
The table with the melting point and boiling point (vaporization) provides no useful information abut how much lead vapor is produced at regular casting temperatures.

The information that is needed is the lead vapor pressure as a function of temperature.

Even OSHA does not require soldering or lead work to be done under a fume hood, thay know that at regular melting temperatures the vapor pressure of lead is so low very little is vaporized.

Playing a torch over the lead to speed up melting WILL vaporize lead since the flame temperature can be around 1750 C (3182 F) and higher for certain gases.

IllinoisCoyoteHunter
January 26, 2010, 01:11 PM
In the previous thread, you seemed to agree that there is a minimal amount of lead vapor dispersed during the melting process.

Where?? I have NEVER stated that. I am finished debating with you. To the OP, I do apologize for getting sidetracked. Like I said before, do whatever makes you comfortable.

Look, if you want to have an elitist attitude, that is fine by me. I run into it everyday. But at least sound like you know what you are talking about.

I really am not sure why you are having problems understanding what I am typing. I don't have an elitist attitude, but when people tell me that I say things that I haven't and try to make me look silly, I will get defensive. You need to read what I am posting...It is so clear and concise. I am not quite sure what elese I can do.

Do yourself a favor and go back and RE-READ my posts...

muddinman_04
January 26, 2010, 01:44 PM
Guy, I have tried to make it as clear as possible in the last few posts that I have made. What is it that you don't get?

I never put words in your mouth. I am just interpreting what you have said.

Locked thread states that you melt in your basement with no fan. Are you saying that you are subjecting yourself to more than minimal amounts of lead vapor?

By stating in post number 6 of this thread:

Quote:
Well, I think that when lead is melted in a melting pot like your doing, there is minimal lead vapor during the melting process.
False
are you stating here that there is NO lead vapor? MORE than minimal lead vapor? What do you mean by your "False" statement?

No one is attacking you or trying to make you look silly. When I kindly ask for validation, you throw up some chart that doesn't even validate your statement.:rolleyes:

If you believe that there are unsafe amounts of lead vapor dispersed from melting in the way that 1chig is melting, please show us REAL validation in your statements. Otherwise, like I previously stated, you are adding nothing to the conversation but confusion.

Unclenick
January 26, 2010, 05:07 PM
Well, I suspect the OP has his answer. Bullet casting doesn't make lead hot enough to create toxic levels of lead vapor. Like one of the other posters, I did a bunch of indoor casting at one point (basement) without proper ventilation (I was young) and had a lead level check at the time, and had no issues. The main lead threat faced by shooters is not from metalic lead, but from inhaling smoke from lead styphnate primers, and even that doesn't seem to be a huge threat unless you work at an unventilated indoor range.

1chig
January 26, 2010, 05:46 PM
illinoiscoyotehunter.You said in the first thread that lead fumes pretty much takes a higher temperature to become airborn than what we melt it at.That is pretty much what muddinman 04 said in thread 2, not in exact words but i took it to mean the same. But in your next post in thread 2 you seem to disagree with muddinman.I think that is what is causing the confusion, at least for me. I did not want to cause an argument and i do thank everyone for there help.

IllinoisCoyoteHunter
January 26, 2010, 07:04 PM
Muddinman....

you state this:
are you stating here that there is NO lead vapor? MORE than minimal lead vapor? What do you mean by your "False" statement?

I have stated, in the thread that was deleted:
Lead becomes airborn (vapors) at a much higher temp than we cast at. ... AND in this thread I posted your validation...so you knew what my "False" statement meant.... and you went on to say...
Thank you all high and mighty...

There is no reason to be a jerk.

I gave you what you asked for, you obviously understood what I had posted, so why do you intend to try to stir the pot? It is clear as day what I have written. Maybe someone else can help me out here. I posted a table that show the temps at which lead vaporizes. Did you have trouble reading that table because they use Celcius? Help me out here, because I want to help you. I want you to completely understand what I have already stated several times in several different ways...

IllinoisCoyoteHunter
January 26, 2010, 07:10 PM
This post is to the OP:

I personally am sorry if you were ever confused. To answer your question: Lead does NOT vaporize at temperatures we use for casting/smelting. Are there minimal amounts of lead vapors when melting lead for casting?? NO, there are not. So, you are safe casting indoors if you want to. A fan is not a bad idea to blow the smoke from the FLUX outside if you don't want to stink up your house. Does this smoke contain lead vapors? NO, it does not. There are NO lead vapors when casting. The only time you WILL get vapors is if your pot gets EXTREMELY hot, which all commercial casting pots don't come near to that, even when run WIDE OPEN. Lead vapors occur only at extreme temperatures...NOT at the temperatures we cast at. I hope this helps and welcome to the world of casting!

1chig
January 26, 2010, 07:43 PM
thank you illinoiscoyotiehunter, I think you just cleared it up for me. They say minimal vapor then you said dalse meaning there were NO vapores heating in the pot we use. I understand now . thank you:confused::)

mcdonl
February 2, 2010, 02:02 PM
been at it forever, been at it forever, been at it forever, been at it forever, and no psycholgical issues yet

Except repeating yourself? :D

okiefarmer
February 2, 2010, 03:10 PM
OK, I feel better now. Dang snow from this global warming still covering the ground, so I'm going back to the garage (sans fan, but listening to Rush and Hannity) and trying to thin down this ingot pile. Wife wants it moved, and this'll be the third time. I'm tired of moving it.

On a good note though, what I don't get cast into boolits, the rest will be in it's final resting place until cast up at some point in the future. She allowed me to take over our 8X16 portable wood building for my realoading room, away from the house. Just need to run power to it now. I have so much brass and other reloading stuff out there now, there is barely room for the lawnmower and other yard stuff. Stuff, Stuff,Stuff, Stuff When will we stop collecting stuff

I think the issue, although resolved was mainly over the simple word "MINIMAL". Mr. Mud man used it, ICH throwed the graph thingy up to veryify that there is "NO" fumes, not MINIMAL,(I missed the real intent too) and that's when the fight started. Ya see, we can't often even understand each other and we know what we are talking about most of the time. Obama counts on this misunderstanding his plans, as it appears half (becoming less all the time) still believe he can spend this country into prosperity. I guess I could do my part in helping out by buying all factory (ripoff) ammo, but have always been a miser, so he'll get no help from me.

Elkins45
March 21, 2010, 09:18 AM
Sorry to resurrect an older thread, but I thought I might be able to add a tiny bit to the discussion.

I read the chart that says Pb vaporizes at 1750C and I don't dispute the information it contains. However, the vaporization temperature refers to the boiling point of any individual atom, not just the mass as a whole. Just because your whole pot of lead isn't boiling doesn't mean that individual atoms aren't receiving enough energy to escape the pot.

Want an example? Leave a glass of water on the countertop for a few days. It goes away, doesn't it? How is that possible, since the water was never heated to its boiling point? It happens because even though the AVERAGE thermal energy of the substance is below the vaporization point, individual molecules absorb enough energy to leave the glass.

Why can't a pot of hot liquid lead evaporate below its boiling point just the same as a cup of cool water? The answer is that it can. The only thing slowing the process is the heavier atomic weight of the Pb.

I have no idea how much lead this puts into the atmosphere, but my guess is that it isn't much. Still, since Pb is a cumulative toxin that's not something I would expose myself to if a simple fan in the window could lessen my risk.

Please don't think I'm being superior--when I first started casting it was with an electric hotplate in my Dad's unventilated basement. I spent hours there happily casting with no ventilation at all. That was 25 years ago and there have been no ill effects I'm aware of. But now that I know the stuff I mentioned above, I wouldn't do it again.

Edward429451
March 21, 2010, 12:21 PM
I missed the other thread but I understand what he and the article said.

He really doesn't contradict himself if you pay attenion.

...minimal lead fumes...false... meant false as in zero, not minimal, not any.

Maybe professors shouldn't teach kindergarden, that's the trouble here:D

Ed_
March 21, 2010, 01:15 PM
Water molecules are actually lighter than air molecules. Molecular weight 18 as compared to 28 for nitrogen and 32 for oxygen.

Water evaporates into the atmospere, forms into ice falls melts and rains

IllinoisCoyoteHunter
March 21, 2010, 02:45 PM
Maybe professors shouldn't teach kindergarden, that's the trouble here

*Snickering* :D

TXGunNut
March 21, 2010, 04:09 PM
I'm new to this fascinating aspect of the shooting sports so safety gets my undivided attention. Having a little fun to make a point is good, hope we all learned something. Fear of airborne lead kept me from casting for many years and molten lead still scares me.

Elkins45
March 21, 2010, 06:24 PM
Water molecules are actually lighter than air molecules. Molecular weight 18 as compared to 28 for nitrogen and 32 for oxygen.

Water evaporates into the atmospere, forms into ice falls melts and rains

Doesn't the kinetic energy of the molecule enter into the equation? I understand the density difference, but won't enough KE overcome that?

Ed_
March 22, 2010, 07:12 AM
I actually am not a chemical engineer*. I googled it.I have know Idea what I am talking about. If I put a glass of water on my counter top next to a lead bullet for 24 hours. When I return I will find there will be less water and the same amount of lead.

* [I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once]:)

IllinoisCoyoteHunter
March 22, 2010, 07:02 PM
I actually am not a chemical engineer*. I googled it.I have know Idea what I am talking about. If I put a glass of water on my counter top next to a lead bullet for 24 hours. When I return I will find there will be less water and the same amount of lead.

* [I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once]

Now that's just funny, I don't care who ya are! :D

Elkins45
March 23, 2010, 06:26 PM
I actually am not a chemical engineer*. I googled it.I have know Idea what I am talking about. If I put a glass of water on my counter top next to a lead bullet for 24 hours. When I return I will find there will be less water and the same amount of lead.

Next time, try it with solid water and liquid lead. :)