PDA

View Full Version : NYC laws regarding "antiques"


Nickel Plated
January 17, 2010, 10:31 AM
Hi all, new guy here.
For a quick intro. My name is Boris, 20 years old, from Brooklyn NYC.
I have some experience shooting a variety of guns at a rental range in the Poconos. But I thought it's about time I get my own.

I figured a cap and ball revolver is a good place to start since it would be the easiest for me to obtain at the moment. However I am asking here for help first to make sure I understand the laws correctly.

Here is the NRA list of firearm laws in NYC:

http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/NYCCL.pdf

And the section specifically dealing with Antiques and Replicas of antiques.

ANTIQUES & REPLICAS

Exempt from permit and certificate of registration requirements
are antique rifles and shotguns incapable of being fired or discharged or which do not fire fixed ammunition or those weapons manufactured prior to 1894 and replicas for which fixed ammunition is not commercially available.
Also exempt is any unloaded muzzle loading pistol or revolver
with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system, or a pistol or revolver, which uses fixed cartridges, which are no longer available in the ordinary channels
of commercial trade. This includes replicas. A license would be required to possess these handguns when the ammunition necessary to discharge them is possessed simultaneously.

If I am reading this correctly, then rifles and shotguns don't need to be registered and you don't need to be 21 or older to own them as long as:
-The gun is deactivated
-The gun doesn't use cartridges (muzzle loader)
-The gun is made prior to 1894 or a replica of a gun made prior to 1894.

Muzzle loading pistols and revolvers don't need to be registered and you don't need to be 21 or older to own them as log as:
-It uses a matchlock, flintlock, or percussion cap to fire.
-It doesn't use cartridges
-You don't posses the ammo needed to fire the gun.

So living in Brooklyn, 20 years old, do not posses ANY sort of firearms licenses, I would be legal to own a muzzle loading rifle replica that replicates a gun from 1894 or earlier (not a big fan of these modern in-line MLs) and be allowed to own ammo for it. Also I can own any muzzle loading pistol and C&B revolver regardless of date of manufacture as long as I don't have the ammo to fire it. Am I correct?

Any thoughts on this from people familiar with NYC law? The NRA page says those laws are as of February, 2006. Anyone know where I can see a more up to date version? Since gun laws have a tendency to change every other week especially in NYC.

4V50 Gary
January 17, 2010, 12:40 PM
Do you remember when a fellow was recently harassed by NYPD for buying a custom made flintlock rifle? They wanted him to register it and he adamantly refused, hired an attorney and won? NYPD knew he was right, but was acting on the order of the Mayor. Go here for the Link (http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/brooklyn/2009/07/29/2009-07-29_replica_rifle_has_brooklyn_man_at_odds_with_cops.html)

Short answer is, yes you can. You might want to go to Governor's Island whenever the reenactors of the 5th New York Infantry (Rev War) assemble there. Get some insights from them about their guns. BTW, when I visited a couple years ago, they had a bunch of schoolteachers who were being drilled as soljers and were camping overnite there. When the teachers learned I knew something of guns, I wound up giving them a short talk about firearms.

Doc Hoy
January 17, 2010, 12:52 PM
Good job researching the regs.

Nice to have you with us.

darkgael
January 17, 2010, 06:15 PM
Boris: I live in Brooklyn also. Yes, you can own as described in the law.
The problem is that you cannot have the means to load and shoot the MLer or the caplock pistol in your possession in the City without being in violation. To some in the City, that means that you cannot have the stuff in your home. Kinda defeats the purpose of the gun if you can't own the components to load it.
Get caught with a caplock pistol, caps, lead balls, and powder at the same time and you have a problem, even if the gun is unloaded.
Pete

mykeal
January 17, 2010, 06:29 PM
I don't think that's correct.

I see nothing in the information posted about minimum age limits for possessing or purchasing antique or replica antique guns. The law says antiques and replicas are exempt from licensing and registration requirements. It does NOT say they are exempt from possession or purchasing requirements. If NY state, or any municipality in NY, has a law that restricts or prohibits possession or purchase of a firearm by anyone below a certain age, for instance 21, then the exemption to licensing and registration requirements would not apply.

Using your logic a 5 year old child could purchase and possess a black powder pistol.

Am I picking nits? You bet. The meaning of words matters a great deal to the law.

The Tourist
January 17, 2010, 06:40 PM
Am I picking nits?

No, I think you struck a very valid and important chord. This whole area of firearms law and prohibition is confusing and poorly enforced.

Yikes, in my state we cannot even agree on what 'zone' you're standing in, much less what weapon is legal on what days for deer. Is a blackpowder rifle suitable and legal during our nine day hunt, and if so, what's the rule in a "red zone"?

And don't get me started on C&R rules and regs. I could toss a CZ 82 on the table next to my CZ 83 and most people couldn't tell you what rules applied to which pistol.

How about Ruger's Old Army series? Some people are confused on whether felons can legally buy blackpowder pieces. If so, we allow them to buy this example that equals a .357 Mag.

The entire debate of "what's legal and when" is the most confusing aspect of firearms law there is. And the problem is that violation can get you some serious jail time. For hunters, you can also loose you automobile, get a 2,400 dollar fine, your rifle and your hunting rights.

You're not picking nits, at all.

Nickel Plated
January 17, 2010, 11:36 PM
4V50 Gary: Can't say I heard that story before, but then in NYC stories that show that guns are good and gun owners are right tend to get little publicity. Nice to see all turned out as it should in the end. :) I will try to check out that reenactment thing.

Doc Hoy: Heh, I think we definately need more shooters in NYC to even out the numbers here and get things back on track. Shame most of them seem to be leaving though. Can't run away from the antis forever, have to face them eventually. ;)

darkangel: From what I understood from that NRA thing, the ammo issue only applies to pistols and not rifles or shotguns. But then again they have no way of actually knowing you have ammo (just sayin :rolleyes:). I have so far kept my airsoft collection nice and safe for 3 years an these are outright illegal here.

mykeal: Picking nits is what I'm looking for here so no worries. Would hate to go to prison for violating some obscure technicality. However according to the first paragraph of that PDF I posted right under "ALL FIREARMS - PURCHASE AND POSSESION" which states:
Only a person age 21 or older can be granted a permit to purchase and possess a firearm. It is unlawful for any person to sell, offer for sale, or dispose of a firearm to any person under the age of 21 within the city of New York, unless such person is otherwise exempt by law.

It does not say you must be 21 to purchase or possess. It says you must be 21 to get a license to purchase or possess. Licenses are not required for MLs so the age limit does not apply. The age limit is tied to the license not to purchase and possession. Hope that makes sense. In most other states a 5 year old can technically possess an AK-47 if you wanted them to so it's not really such a stretch. I may be wrong of course.

Jeez not only do I live in NYC with some confusing laws, I'm also under 21 so these laws are even LESS clear in my case, go figure.

mykeal
January 18, 2010, 06:26 AM
Good luck with that argument in front of a judge.

batjka
January 18, 2010, 03:57 PM
Boris,

Yes it would be legal for you to possess a C&B revolver without the loading materials. Cabelas will ship to your door.

Balls, caps etc can be easily obtained once you're outside the City limits. But then you are breaking the law and are on your own.

A "firearm" under NYS penal code means a pistol. A rifle is not a "firearm". An "antique" is not a firearm either.

So, a C&B revolver is not a "firearm", but once loading materials are possessed with it it becomes a "firearm" just like any other pistol or revolver.

Hardcase
January 18, 2010, 08:41 PM
Also exempt is any unloaded muzzle loading pistol or revolver
with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system, or a pistol or revolver, which uses fixed cartridges, which are no longer available in the ordinary channels
of commercial trade. This includes replicas. A license would be required to possess these handguns when the ammunition necessary to discharge them is possessed simultaneously.

There's the salient section of the code, as quoted by the NRA site. You can possess a CB revolver or you can possess the ammunition for a CB revolver. You cannot possess both at the same time.

Just a backup to what batjka said.