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Kawfeegod
January 16, 2010, 02:28 PM
I have a winchester model 1917 30-06 that has been sporterized. The job was well done and is a nice looking rifle. All numbers match and it has a weaver model 330 scope. I just got it back from the gun smith for a head space and safety check and he said it has excessive head space. About .015 out of spec is what he said. Here is my question... He said that I could re-chamber it for about $150 or I could fire form brass to use specifically in that rifle. I am thinking the cost is about the same. So I guess I have three choices; 1. fix it. 2. fire form the brass and shoot it. 3. sell it.

I paid $200 for the rifle and I do really want a 30-06 but I don't want to throw good money after bad. Any advice would be helpful.

-Tom

Bud Helms
January 16, 2010, 02:58 PM
I am thinking the cost is about the same.

I'm thinking cost is not the factor here. Fire-forming brass entails the exactly the same situation you are trying to avoid. You have to stick SAAMI spec ammo in there and pull the trigger. I'd expect 1) less than 100% yield from that process and 2) a possible random catastrophic failure, unless you are using virgin brass. 'Might not hurt the rifle, but then again ... Fire-forming doesn't require full power loads, but they do need to be stout. If I was going to do that, I'd just sight the thing in and go hunting.

Rechambering for $150 is not a bad deal. I wonder if he (the gunsmith) knows what he's in for ... does he have a good reputation? That is the way to go. Fix it.

tINY
January 16, 2010, 03:49 PM
Typically, fire-forming is done with reduced charges in new brass...

But, at $150 to turn down the shoulder, properly timing the barrel and finish reaming is pretty cheap. Then you can just buy ammo over the counter.

If you already handload, it may not be worth the money on an old rifle.





-tINY

mapsjanhere
January 16, 2010, 08:18 PM
If the P17 is in good shape you can also sell it as a project action. Would be a nice starting point for a rebarrel, those actions are desirable (today, I still kick myself for telling my mom to throw out a project rifle 20 years ago 'cause I didn't want to pay shipping and she wanted it out of the house).

r.w. schrack
January 16, 2010, 08:26 PM
Think I would get a second opinion.

a7mmnut
January 16, 2010, 08:39 PM
I would also shop around. A smith near here will rechamber almost anything in standard calibers for about $80. Did he also check the bolt face and locking lugs? If someone took too much off the lugs when squaring the action before course chambering, they would have had to set back the barrel and regage before finish chambering the job. -7-

Scorch
January 16, 2010, 09:15 PM
In our local shop, chambering a new barrel, threading, and crowning costs $150 or less, and that is a lot more work than just setting the barrel back one thread and recutting the chamber. The extractor cutout will have to be deepened but not done from scratch. I agree, find a different smith.

blu97
January 16, 2010, 10:27 PM
Had the same problem with my winchester 1917.

Bought 3 winchester bolts from springfield sporters, ( $15 ea.) and got one to

headspace, sold the others on E-bay for 3 times what I paid for them.

blu97
January 16, 2010, 10:37 PM
Just checked springfield sporters site, bolts have gone up to $20 + $10 for

winchester, still cheeper to try first , can always sell them.

F. Guffey
January 17, 2010, 12:33 AM
Again, Reloading is about firing first to determine the effect the chamber had on the case, outside or beyond reloading there is determining the effect the camber will have on the case, the gun smith determining the chamber has .016 thousands head space is a good start, now what?

I have an Eddystone with .016 head space with minimum length (full length sized) 30/06 cases. Cases fired in a chamber with .008 thousands head space have shoulders moved forward .007 thousands, that leaves .004 to go before I can have a case that will chamber in my Eddystone with .005 thousands head space. Rather than fire first to move the shoulder forward I find cases that have the shoulder forward of the 30/06 and move the shoulder back. The first option is the 280 Remington, it is longer by .041 thousands and has a shoulder forward of the 30/06 by .051 thousands. I use forming die, to me the forming dies have always been a better option than tools that are nice to have.

Forming 30/06 cases from 280 Remington cases: the case will require necking up, if using the 30/06 full length sizer die lube the inside of the neck and case, adjust the gap between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the sizer die with a .016 thousands feeler gage, then start sizing (forming) if the effort increases back off (a little) then continue.

Necking the case up will shorten the neck and could squat the case, this will change the case length, the 280 case will require trimming, even though is is .041 longer than the 30/06 the neck will be shorten when necked up (I know it is said when sizing the neck it gets thinner or thicker, when you hear this, SMILE, keep walking) and do not forget the chamber is longer by .016 thousands therefore the case when measured should be .016 longer between the the face of the bolt and it's shoulder. Adjusting the gap between the shell holder and die with the ram up automatically adds (controls) the .016 to the case length between the head of the case and shoulder.

After forming, trim then seat a bullet and attempt to chamber, if the test case chambers with resistance decrease the gap to .014 thousands size a few cases and attempt to chamber again, if the cases chamber without resistance load 10 rounds, primer powder and bullet, forget reduced loads, start with standard published loads for the 30/06, forget fire forming, the cases are formed (first) then fired.

After firing and before sizing the cases remember to adjust the gap between the shell holder and die.

Lubing cases, when sizing do not lube the outside of the neck or shoulder, this rule changes when forming the 280 to 30/06, part of the neck becomes part of the shoulder, part of the shoulder becomes part of the case body, I know it is said the shoulder is moved forward or back, that just does not happen when forming, the formed case will have a shoulder it just isn't the same shoulder.

http://www.z-hat.com/Hawk%20Forming.htm

best option, new unfired brass, it does not get better, then once fired or R-P cylinger brass for everything else when the shoulder needs to be moved back and the hand loader knows how to get the most use out of the press, dies available and shell holders.

http://www.z-hat.com/Cylinder.htm

Bolts and head space, it is possible to determine the effect your bolt has on head space, the problem has always been trying to convince someone it can be done, problem, I do not have a M1917 bolt I am willing to give up, and, I have 40 03A3 bolts, there is not .003 thousands between all of them and that is determined without a rifle.

F. Guffey

F. Guffey
January 17, 2010, 12:47 AM
I purchases a thousand 30/06 cases, I necked up 400 of them to 35 Whelen, at the time I did not have a Whelen but knew I would be forming cases for wildcats and chambers like your M1917 with .016 head space, with the 35 Whelen cases I would, again, adjust the die off the shell holder (for my Eddystone) .016 and form/size cases with a small secondary shoulder ahead of the 35 Whelen shoulder. After sizing I would seat a bullet and chamber, regardless, when fired my Eddystone has less than .002 head space.

Necking up shortens the neck, after necking the 30/06 cases yo to 35 Whelen the case length shortened .035 thousands, necking the case down recovers some of the length but not all of it, consider some of it could be contributed to compression of the case body.

F. Guffey

F. Guffey
January 17, 2010, 12:58 AM
http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=7309186

I bid and won this rifle, my thinking? no one could get a rifle in this shape without knowing what they were doing, sure enough, with mounts, rings, scope and a trip to the range this rifle leaves nothing to improve upon........when it comes to accuracy, something like a poor mans bench rest rifle.


F. Guffey

Kawfeegod
January 17, 2010, 03:11 AM
I do appreciate all the info. I don't think I am in to making wildcat cases. I would consider the fire forming route with new brass and reduces loads. I was planning on taking the rifle to another smith on monday to get a second opinion. The first smith has done work for me before and has a good rep in this town. It seems he primarily does semi-auto stuff. I think If I could get the price around $100 I might consider the rechambering. Would anyone have an idea of what this rifle is worth - ballpark? It is in good shape no sights, the "ears" have been removed, but looks good.

Had the same problem with my winchester 1917.

Bought 3 winchester bolts from springfield sporters, ( $15 ea.) and got one to

headspace, sold the others on E-bay for 3 times what I paid for them.


So what you are saying here is that this could fix my problem? Also, how hard is it to check head space on my own?

Kawfeegod
January 17, 2010, 03:12 AM
http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...temnum=7309186

I bid and won this rifle, my thinking? no one could get a rifle in this shape without knowing what they were doing, sure enough, with mounts, rings, scope and a trip to the range this rifle leaves nothing to improve upon........when it comes to accuracy, something like a poor mans bench rest rifle.

That is one fugly rifle.....I hope you got a good price for it.

rimrockhunter
January 17, 2010, 03:36 AM
You can't just stick in a SAMMI spec sized case and pull the trigger. It does not fireform, and in fact will create a case that is to short. This is a dangerous situation. When fireforming a rimless case such as the 06-270-308 ect. the shoulder of the case must come into contact with the corrresponding surface in the chamber. When you close the bolt you should have to push down just slightly on the bolt, you should feel it make contact. You can take a 270 case and size it out to 308, then create a slight shoulder that is just slightly ahead of where the 06 case shoulder is located. Start out by makeing the cases to long, then keep moving ithe shoulder back until you can just feel the bolt close with tension. Before starting this be sure that the OAL of the case is not to long. If it is then the top of the neck will contact the end of the rifling and will screw up the way the bolt feels when it closes. It must close not loose but must have some tension. You will be able to feel it. Put in a "almost full load" and fire form the brass. Check for splits in the neck and the OAL. You are now good to go.

mapsjanhere
January 17, 2010, 09:48 AM
how hard is it to check head space on my own?
You need a set of go/no go gauges (http://www.midwayusa.com/Search/#headspace%20gauge%2030-06____-_1-2-4_8-16-32).

kraigwy
January 17, 2010, 12:43 PM
So what you are saying here is that this could fix my problem? Also, how hard is it to check head space on my own?

It can fix your problems assuming you get the right bolt. The unknown is you dont know how many you are gonna have to get, Plus the cost of the headspace gages.

I took of a National Guard unit one time that use to take the bolts out of rifles for security reasons. Most units taged the bolts with the Serial numbers of the rifles, this one didnt, they just dumped then in a box and issued "a" bolt with a rifle. Took me for ever to match them up, going through several bolts until I found one that would head space to the gun. Got it all straightened out and engraved the serial numbers on the bolt.

The point of this little story is, you never know how many bolts you are gonna have to buy. Even at the $10 figure, plus shipping, plus headspace gages, it isnt gonna take long to eat up $150.

I'm not real impressed with a smith telling someone "just shoot it, fireforming the brass and keep using it. Somebody somewhere sometime just might put something else in the rifle. But thats just me.

Just something to think about.

ZeroJunk
January 17, 2010, 01:49 PM
Unless you just enjoy doing it, making brass to fit your rifle will eat up a ton of time and I don't see that it gains you anything other than avoiding a relatively inexpensive gunsmith job where you will know exactly what you have.

Kawfeegod
January 17, 2010, 01:52 PM
In the smiths defense, he did say that he in good conscience could not say the rifle was safe to fire. but he added a couple of ifs to go along with it. I have decided that the fire forming is out. Too much effort. Still anyone have an idea of the value of this rifle? I could not find it in my price guide.

F. Guffey
January 17, 2010, 04:17 PM
Not sure why someone would choose the 270 case over the 280, the distance from the head of the case to its shoulder is the same as the 30/06, no matter what, the shoulder must be moved forward by forming or by firing, the 280 Remington case is longer by .051 from the head of the case to it's shoulder than the 270 or 30/06.

Anyone can move the shoulder forward by firing, the complicated and difficult part is knowing how to moving the shoulder without firing.

The value of the head space gage is exaggerated, it is a tool that is nice to have, we all know the head space gage will chamber, it is +.005 longer from the head to it's shoulder than a full length sized case is from the head of the case to it's shoulder, beyond that is the no-go gage, it is useless when measuring a chamber that has .016 thousands head space, after the no-go gage is the field gage, again it will chamber is in a chamber with .016 head space by .002.

I make gages, I can make one gage that replaces the go, no and beyond gages for the M1917 or a set that would cover all the numbers from -.017 below the go-gage to .011 beyond to infinity.

F. Guffey

tater134
January 17, 2010, 04:39 PM
Do you know if the rifle was checked with a field gauge? Since its a ex-military rifle it would have a more generous chamber to be able to function in the grit and grime of combat.While a no go gauge reveals excessive headspace a field gauge may show that the rifle is still safe to shoot.

F. Guffey
January 17, 2010, 08:31 PM
no-go gage indicates excessive head space, new unfired cases are shot in rifles with excessive head space ONCE, after that apply the 'LEAVER POLICY' once the case has been fire formed to the chamber and the shoulder has moved out LEAVER OUT, do not size the case back to minimum length, that constitutes travel, I am a big fan of reducing case travel.

If a rifles is said to have excessive head space declaring the chamber field reject length does not make it safe and on the 30/06 there was no generous chambers, the M1 Garand had a generous chamber, it did not use small base cases, instead the chamber opening was .0002 thousands larger in diameter than the 03 and M1917.

F. Guffey

Kawfeegod
January 18, 2010, 01:29 AM
I make gages, I can make one gage that replaces the go, no and beyond gages for the M1917 or a set that would cover all the numbers from -.017 below the go-gage to .011 beyond to infinity.

F. Guffey, what would you charge for a set?

I guess I am still at a loss. I will try another smith to see if I can get a better price, otherwise I guess I will try to sell it.

F. Guffey
January 18, 2010, 08:02 AM
If you do not reload most of what has been said is foreign to you, I determine head space first then form cases to fit and then fire, I do not have a clue what a 'ton of work' is. I will form cases for your 30/06 chamber that will be marked in '+', starting at +.010 (no-go gage +.001) to +.016 (field reject gage) +.002).

If you were familiar with depth micrometers or the versatile dial indicator I could send you ONE +.020 instead, with the dial caliper or depth micrometer head space can be determined in .000 (thousands) from .000 to +.020 on the M1917. simple reason, head space is A - B = C or the difference between two measurements, I am not particular as to how or where these two measurements come from.

If you have a dial caliper or height gage you can determine the effect the bolt has on head space, knowing this AND convincing someone it can be done when ordering a bolt that could fit is the though part, all that is required is to have the ability to measure the distance from the bolt face to the back of the lugs, to do this requires a cylinder that would allow the bolt to stand on it's face and a flat surface and or course a depth gage or dial caliper. The measurement is for comparison meaning the information is nice to know when done on one bolt, the information becomes useful when compared to the information of another bolt as in 'does one bolt have more or less effect than another bolt when compared, the effect will be in thousands.

E-mail ( if I can help PM)

F. Guffey

ZeroJunk
January 18, 2010, 12:01 PM
I do not have a clue what a 'ton of work' is.


That's not exactly what I said. But,

More work than I want to do. And, I already have everything to do it with. Might have done it 30 years ago just to be doing it though.

James K
January 18, 2010, 11:04 PM
I will get flak for this, but have you fired the rifle at all? If so, what did the cases look like? Having heard and read more BS about headspace than any other topic, if the rifle doesn't show signs of tampering or rechambering, I am inclined to just touch off a couple of rounds and see what the cases look like. If I don't see signs of stretched or distorted cases, I don't sweat it.

I hate to be suspicious of fellow gunsmiths, but there are a few who will always tell a customer his rifle has excess headspace so they can sell him a barrel job.

Jim

Kawfeegod
January 19, 2010, 12:26 AM
If you do not reload most of what has been said is foreign to you

I do quite a bit of reloading and know my way around micrometers and dial calipers (not a machinist but play one on TV. Quite a bit of machine tools at my disposal, and I can use em too!) So I do understand quite a bit of what you are saying.

but have you fired the rifle at all?
No flak. I have not fired the rifle, yet. It was suggested to me that I head space the rifle first. I have taken a few other guns to this smith and this is the first time he has found a serious problem. I don't think he would be one to try to screw anyone.


E-mail ( if I can help PM)
Yup. I will be sending you one.

I did get another price for the rechambering today. $125. A little better, but....

I think I might try to find a better bolt with F. Guffey's help and see if that might not fix the problem.

mega twin
January 19, 2010, 06:37 AM
Was there not a serial number range that had poor heat treating,or was that the '03 model.

Seems like I remember that from years ago,but not the particular model.

Doyle
January 19, 2010, 09:38 AM
Was there not a serial number range that had poor heat treating,or was that the '03 model.


You are thinking about certain early 1903's. The 1917's were all extremely tough.

There is one potential problem with the cost of headspacing a 1917 though. One of the manufacturers (either Eddystone or Remington - I don't remember which) screwed the barrels in so hard that getting them out is a REAL pain. That could be why this gunsmith was quoting such a high price.

apr1775
January 19, 2010, 01:44 PM
The Eddystone's had the barrels torqued on extremely hard. Requires cutting away material from the barrel torque shoulder before unscrewing it.
Try a couple different bolt bodies.

tater134
January 19, 2010, 03:41 PM
I will get flak for this, but have you fired the rifle at all? If so, what did the cases look like? Having heard and read more BS about headspace than any other topic, if the rifle doesn't show signs of tampering or rechambering, I am inclined to just touch off a couple of rounds and see what the cases look like. If I don't see signs of stretched or distorted cases, I don't sweat it.

I agree with you 100% Jim. I may catch some flak for this well but Ive never had any of my rifles headspaced and some of the rifles I shoot are over 100 years old. I remotely fire them and then if the cases appear to fine I shoot them normally.When I did notice any weird looking cases I just took the rifles to my gunsmith to have them checked out and only once did I encounter a headspace problem (tight chamber on a 1916 Spanish Mauser which resulted in an extremely hard to open bolt).

Id suggest shooting the rifle remotely and checking the cases thoroughly after firing to see if theres any deformation.

K8vf
January 19, 2010, 09:37 PM
You will also have to disclose that there is excessive head space and take a hit on the sale.

If you like the rifle, have the work done.

If you fail to disclose, and the gun has a serious problem, you will be liable-in your MIND- at least. And in FACT if it is found you knew abt the problem.

just a thought.

Kawfeegod
January 20, 2010, 03:12 PM
You will also have to disclose that there is excessive head space and take a hit on the sale.

If you like the rifle, have the work done.

If you fail to disclose, and the gun has a serious problem, you will be liable-in your MIND- at least. And in FACT if it is found you knew abt the problem.

just a thought.

Absolutely. Would not do it any other way.

Ivan
January 20, 2010, 05:56 PM
Buying a bunch of bolts sometimes works. I tried this with a different rifle and got two bolt bodies that headspaced properly with the receiver and barrel combination. My situation was different though because one expects a bit of variation with the same gun manufactured in different places. I ended up using an Australian Bolt, Irish marked Barrel, and Indian Receiver on my Frankenstein Lee Enfield. If all parts are US, you may not have the same variation though with the M1917s, you have Winchester, Remington, and Eddystone variants.

IMHO, having a gun marked .30-06 that can't safely shoot .30-06 ammunition is just plain dangerous.

BTW, if a gunsmith is willing to set your M1917 barrel back one thread and recut everthing to spec for $150, take him up on it. The M1917 by reputation has barrels that tend to be over torqued, so even the safe removal is a bit more of a chore. (Should have read ALL the replies first. Others already pointed this out.)

This might also be the perfect candidate for a longer .30 cal cartridge because the actions I believe are long enough for something like a .300 H&H Magnum. Now THAT would be a classic sporter.

- Ivan.

Kawfeegod
January 20, 2010, 08:07 PM
IMHO, having a gun marked .30-06 that can't safely shoot .30-06 ammunition is just plain dangerous.

I agree. I am going to try the bolt thing first, with F. Guffey's help. If that does not work, then off to the gun smith.

apr1775
January 21, 2010, 07:39 AM
This might also be the perfect candidate for a longer .30 cal cartridge because the actions I believe are long enough for something like a .300 H&H Magnum. Now THAT would be a classic sporter.

Yes the 1917 can handle way more than a 30-06. A-Square used that action for their huge magnum customs. A full magnum length cartridge such as the 300 H&H will require a longer magazine box (I have a 375 H&H 1917 in the works) 300 win mag would be an easy conversion. The magazine lip portion of the receiver would have to be opened up and the bolt face opened up too. Usually you can just use a P14 bolt as the 303brit has the same rim diameter as the belted magnums.

lots of options

Often the head spacing on military rifles was a little loose to allow for dirty or banged up ammo.

F. Guffey
January 21, 2010, 09:24 AM
"Often the head spacing on military rifles was a little loose to allow for dirty or banged up ammo"

"IMHO, having a gun marked .30-06 that can't safely shoot .30-06 ammunition is just plain dangerous"

Hatcher modified a 30/06 chamber by moving the shoulder forward .125, he then chambered 30/06 ammo in the modified chamber and fired it, WHAT WAS THE DANGER? WHAT WAS THE RISK? Hatcher thought the case would fail or he had to eliminate the possibility the length of the chamber caused catastrophic failure.

Many 8mm57 rifles have been chambered to 8mm06, by mistake 8mm57 ammo has been chambered in the 8mm06 and fired, oddly? enough the difference between the 8mm57 and the 8mm06 is the same as the difference between the 30/06 and Hatcher's modified chamber, .125 plus about .003? The 8mm57 after firing was ejected as an 8mm06 with a short neck, the shoulder did not move forward, it was erased and became part of the case body, the neck became part of the shoulder and the case did not stretch? it got shorter.

The case did expand and fill the chamber, the case expanded when it conformed (formed) to the shape of the chamber, if the case can not expand (form) it splits.

And for a very short period of time they used reduced loads (pistol powder) because it made the rifle user friendly? no it was cheaper but there was a problem, the 06 could not stand the sudden shock of reduced loads.

Thankfully the British provided us with the P14/M1917.

F. Guffey

Kawfeegod
January 21, 2010, 11:27 AM
One more question. As I embark on this journey to find a better bolt, what should the head space be on this rifle? Keep in mind, I am not shooting military ammo, and will be using today's modern stuff. The smith told me I was about .015 out of spec. What is a good tolerance to be within?

F. Guffey
January 21, 2010, 12:24 PM
In the perfect world head space is .005 thousands meaning a full length size case is .000 or .005 thousands shorter from the head of the case to it's shoulder than the chamber (go-gage length) when measured from the face of the bolt to the shoulder of the chamber.

Your rifle with .015 thousands head space is .001 over a field reject gage, .005 over a no go-gage and .010 thousands over a go-gage, when compared to the minimum length cartridge (full length size) case the difference between your chamber length (bolt face to shoulder) and factory ammo (from the head of the case to it's shoulder) is .015 thousands.

There is a John Smith, collector/reloader/shooter in PA that was surprised he had an M1917 Enfield with .016 thousands head space, I determine head space before I load for a chamber, it is as easy for me to form first then fire than is is to take the rifle to the range then fire to determine the effect the chamber had on the case.

As was suggested, other chambers are possible, I have a P14 that is a 308 Norma mag, that is a lot of work, My Eddystone is a 30/06 + .016. I have a 30 Gibbs that is modified and improved, the shoulder has been moved forward .202 thousands, it could be called the 30/06 +.202, the neck is .217 long.

Again we are hoping there is a problem with the bolt, but I have no less than 40 03 bolts, there is not .003 difference between them, I have 8 Mauser receivers with bent bolts with out barrels, no matter what combination, bolt to receiver, there is not .004 difference.

I purchased a mill from a collector in Arlington, TX. at the time he was building an 03 period correct rifle for 1911 with a straight bolt, changing bolts was not an option, between us we have 100 plus bolts, I have one straight handled 03, point being he had a hand full of gages, he knew the go-gage would 'GO', he knew the no go-gage would not go.

I did not want to waste his time but did explain to him I could use the go-gage to determine the exact amount of head space he had, or I could use the no go-gage etc or I could check the head space three different ways with out a head space gage, long story short with a new box of Remington 30/06 ammo his rifle had .0065 head space + or - .0005 because of the difference in the length of his new Ammo from the head of the case to the shoulder. We tried a few of his bent handle bolts, no improvement, no difference.

I have new in the box 03A3 bolts, why would bolts be shipped two to the box if there was no difference in the effect the bolt has on head space? Order, use one, the other was a spare for parts? Brown and Sharp replacement bolts for 03 and 03A3s.

F. Guffey

apr1775
January 21, 2010, 08:22 PM
If you're only .001" beyond "field", it sounds as if you just have a loose chamber military rifle. If it were me, and the rifle shoots fine and the brass looks ok, just keep on shooting. Most gunsmiths work in sporting rifle specs, not military specs.

F. Guffey
January 22, 2010, 09:56 AM
Somewhere back on a response the question was asked: WHAT IS THE RISK? at least two responses suggested the same advise as you, I wonder why the gunsmith did not test fire the rifle. The fired case would be a formed copy of the chamber less 'recovery' I do not understand why the smith did not offer to make a cerrosafe cast of the chamber.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=462291

Had he test fired the rifle the fired case could have been used to set-up the press, die and shell holder. With a good press, die and shell holder (and cases with recovery) full length sizing is accomplished when the die is adjusted down to the shell holder, the tougher the case the more effort required, for most reloaders there is nothing after full length sizing, they go straight to neck sizing, my opinion, they are missing the best part by not treating the press, shell holder and die as adjustable, I am THE fan of the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage.

Hatcher perceived (when fired) the case stretching somewhere between the head of the case and shoulder when the shoulder moved forward? Much to his surprise the shoulder disappeared and became part of the case body and a new shoulder was formed from part of the shoulder and part of the neck WHEN USING GOOD BRASS that has the ability to stretch like new unfired brass.

Using the brass after it has been fired and formed in the chamber: apply the 'leaver policy' once the case is fire formed 'leaver formed', do not size the case back to minimum length, this brings us to WHAT IS THE RISK? Hatcher knew a case had to have the ability to stretch, if a case was not properly manufactured and did not have the ability to stretch failure would be built into the case before it was chambered in the rifle and 'that is the risk' of firing a cartridge with excessive head space. If the M1917 is test fired it must be tested with new brass, then back to 'I form first then fire', I want to cut down on all that case travel.

I had the opportunity to pick up 1,000 LC National Match cases from Pat's reloading in Ohio a few year ago, the bullets were pulled and powder was recovered, using the cases is not an easy decision, at the time I paid .10 cents each, to replace them with new cases will cost at least .35 cent each. new brass behaves in a predictable manner when sizing and forming cases, after firing the ability of the case to recover and or stretch diminishes.

Risk and Danger, of firing a rifle with head space on the +++ side exist if the brass case being used is work hardened, I have FA 57 and 58 National Match cases that I have fired before reading a caution about the manufacturing process being flawed by the elimination of one process that saved time, FA eliminated one annealing process, during the manufacturing process brass goes through as many as 5 procedures, the cases were to be recycled, but somewhere between the reject and recycle, cases got into the hands of reloaders, or not all FA58NM were rejected, I moved the FA 58 NM next to my BN 30/06.

F. Guffey