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soup
January 14, 2010, 04:26 PM
Hello,

I'm new to this forum but not really new to firearms. I've had my C&R for some time now and wanted to see what you all thought of this rifle I picked up.

I picked it up in Oct of 08 before I got my C&R not really knowing what it was or anything. I love it and shot a lot out of it. It wasn't until I started getting involved with C&R firearms that I started digging around to find more about it only to find roadblocks and a lot of questions unanswered which lead to more questions. I've asked this on several message boards before in the past and no one is really sure what it is I have.

I've checked 7.62x54.net and I know it is a 40" M44 with folding bayonet that is as far as I can get with the 7.62x54.net identification guide. None of the symbols on my rifle match anything on their site for identification.

On the barrel it has

53
1

then the serial number which is 3656

these letters above are also in front of the serial numbers on the butt plate, bolt and magazine plate. Everything matches.

I'm 100% positive the marks on the bolt and under the rear sight and on the bands around the barrel are the same as the Izhevsk arrow in a triangle. The flash makes it hard to see but there is no mistaking the symbol, very clear.

Below I drew up (pretty crappily I might add) the 3 symbols I'm able to make out on the right side of the barrel. They are very small.

http://www.misterjackson.com/Gallery/d/60495-2/nagant+symbols.JPG

you can see them on the receiver itself below

http://www.misterjackson.com/Gallery/d/52611-2/Nagant+Carbine+Markings.JPG


Here are the pictures of the rifle:

http://www.misterjackson.com/Gallery/d/52616-2/Nagant+Carbine.JPG
This is My 1953 Czech M44????

http://www.misterjackson.com/Gallery/d/52586-2/Nagant+Carbine+Bayo+lug.JPG

Notice the bayonet and everything is factory.


All numbers match,

http://www.misterjackson.com/Gallery/d/52606-2/Nagant+Carbine+Mag+plate+numbers.JPG

http://www.misterjackson.com/Gallery/d/52601-2/Nagant+Carbine+Mag+markings.JPG

http://www.misterjackson.com/Gallery/d/52596-2/Nagant+Carbine+Bolt.JPG

http://www.misterjackson.com/Gallery/d/52591-2/Nagant+Carbine+Bolt+Markings.JPG

http://www.misterjackson.com/Gallery/d/52621-2/Polished+Slope.JPG

http://www.misterjackson.com/Gallery/d/52636-2/Tang2.JPG

These are the markings on the tang, below is a pick of the markings highlighted for better viewing pleasure.

http://www.misterjackson.com/Gallery/d/52641-2/Tang3.JPG


As was suggested to me on another forum I emailed Ted at 7.62x54r.net. I sent him the pics and explained everything I could. This was the reply I received

Anthony,

Thanks for sending the pictures. I've never seen anything quite like that before and it's hard to know where to begin with it. The marks on the side of the barrel are certainly the same marks typically found on M91/38 receivers. While there isn't 100% agreement that these are Czech, I think the argument that they are is convincing. The rest of the marks don't look like any Mosin I'm familiar with though. I think you're correct that the "53" represents the year. The conventional wisdom on M91/38s says they were done in 1958 so there's a discrepancy there. The 4 digits are the serial number, but Soviet and Eastern European rifles and carbines of that era typically have a two letter prefix. That may be what the two letters are, but usually they are all in a row, not on two lines. The letters and numbers both appear larger and clearer than usual also.

As for the Cyrillic letters, Czechoslovakia didn't use the Cyrillic alphabet so that adds another layer to the mystery. Czech M91/38s are typically cut down from M91s and have the original barrel marks intact. As you pointed out this has a round receiver, but I wouldn't be completely surprised to find an otherwise typical M91/38 cut down from a later round receiver rifle. The basic configuration is typical late Soviet/Eastern European M44, which I believe was the original configuration of M91/38s. See this page for details. http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinTheOp.htm#Czech As for the earlier receiver, it's not uncommon to find older receivers re-used among Soviet Mosins. That could be the case or it's possible that the barrel is the same age as the receiver and was just scrubbed and remarked.

The "sanitized" M91/59s are a contemporary example of that and there are a few cases known among Soviet rifles. The Izhevsk parts aren't surprising either as since older parts were used by many countries to repair, rebuild, and build Mosins. I think you're correct that the receiver date is 1940, but you could narrow down the possibilities by checking to see if the rear is stepped near the tang as shown on this page. http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinReceiver.htm If it's stepped it's almost certainly 1940 and if not then it's probably 1948. 1953 was the first year of production for Romanian M44s and Chinese T53s. Some T53s are known to be built on Soviet receivers and have other Soviet parts. The current stock and condition of the rifle looks similar to the currently imported refurbished rifles and I suspect that it came in with them. This could be easily confirmed by the import mark. It's really irrelevant though as the odd Mosin from another country or era is found mixed in occasionally.

Taking all that together, I still don't know what to think of the rifle. I doubt the barrel was made by the Czechs, or was even made in 1953, but I could be wrong. I think most likely it's an original barrel from 1940 that was just cut down from an M91/30, scrubbed and remarked. Maybe it was an aborted program for Czechoslovakia to start building M44s at that time which was abandoned. There could even be a good number of them still packed away in an Eastern European warehouse. It could have also be done in some other country and then just ended up in Czechoslovakia later where it picked up the marks. Some M91/38s are known that didn't have the bayonets removed and at least one has shown up with the current imports. Regardless of it's exact history it's certainly not typical and is an interesting rifle. If I think of anything else or run across another similar one I'll let you know. Also, if you ever decide to part with it I'd be interested in adding it to my collection.


Regards,
Ted



So, what do you all think??? What do you think something like this would be worth? Not that I'm looking to sell it... The last line of the email really struck me. Here is a guy who in essence the end all be all of Mosin information essentially offering to buy it from me lol

tater134
January 14, 2010, 06:15 PM
Its an interesting rifle for sure.As to what it could be worth it all depends who wants it.To your average gun buyer its just an m44 which isnt worth a whole lot.But to someone whos really into mosins and knows what theyre looking at is something different it could be worth quite a bit.

ksstargazer
January 14, 2010, 07:02 PM
Cool! You sure have a rare one!

kilimanjaro
January 17, 2010, 12:52 AM
Certainly not a run-of-the-arsenal M44. The Cyrillic serial number is FL 3656. I think the '1' below the '53' is a proof mark, for no particular reason. The triangle stamps on the bolt are definitely Izhevsk arsenal production.