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View Full Version : Dragunov v.s. m1a


sgtdills
January 13, 2010, 03:21 PM
I am looking at getting a long range auto loading rifle. I am up in the air between these two weapons. My current long range gun is a Savage 10fp. Do any input would help.

Chipperman
January 13, 2010, 03:27 PM
I'd take REAL Dragunov over an M1A any day.

You probably are talking about an SVD clone, though. M1A will probably win on accuracy, but the 7.26x54R will be less expensive to shoot than 7.62NATO. It's a toss-up. I'd probably take an M1A over a PSL.

TheShootist1894
January 13, 2010, 03:51 PM
This really needs to be a discussion??

M1-A. . . .

DMK
January 13, 2010, 03:55 PM
Cost wise a Romanian PSL will be about half the cost and include a fairly decent (if unusual) scope. (If you mean a real Dragunov then the M1A will be half the price.)

The PSL is based on an AK action, the M1A is based on a Garand action.

IMO, the PSL is easier to field strip and clean. You can run a cleaning rod from the breach end.

The M1A has a better build quality.

SR420
January 13, 2010, 04:05 PM
I'd take REAL M14 over a REAL Dragunov any day.

Chipperman
January 13, 2010, 04:09 PM
I'd take REAL M14 over a REAL Dragunov any day.

:rolleyes:

OK staying out of the realm of NFA, would you rather have a Russian Tiger Drag or an M1A national Match. Sure the Match is nice, but a Russian Tiger is much more rare, and no more are coming in.

mapsjanhere
January 13, 2010, 04:17 PM
no more are coming in
I was always wondering why those things are so bloody expensive. I presume this is due to some import limitation?

combat_master
January 13, 2010, 04:44 PM
Are we talkign about an NDM or real SVD, or PSL's? You really need to pick up both M1A and SVD(or PSL) and see which one suits you better, or what you will be using them for.

And of course, 7.62x54R ammo is way cheaper, but if you spend a crapload of money both rifles the M1A will probably come out more accurate. But you can make a PSL(or SVD) a MOA, or even sub moa rifle.

kraigwy
January 13, 2010, 05:18 PM
I' ve played with the draqunov, I went to sniper school using the M21(M14) and taught several sniper schools using the M21/14.

I've shot the M1A in compitition since I got it in 1977.

Not to mention you can get parts for the M1A (although, except for shooting our barrels and stretched out slings, I havent had to replace any parts).

Match ammo and components are readily avalible for the 308.

Its my opinion there is no compairson, go for the M1A.

But its JMHO and your money.

LordofWar
January 13, 2010, 05:29 PM
This season I shot an Ibex at 733 yards with my original Soviet era Dragunov.
An original M1 well... doesnt even come close to the Dragunov.

http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss143/III-666/27072009003.jpg

http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss143/III-666/27072009006.jpg

http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss143/III-666/27072009005.jpg

Brenten
January 13, 2010, 06:02 PM
no question M1A all the way.

DMK
January 13, 2010, 06:17 PM
Anybody here actually own an M1A and a PSL (or even a Drag)?

I'll bet that an entry level M1A off the shelf (not National Match or M21) shoots about the same as the Warsaw Pact guns, assuming equal quality ammo.


I'd take REAL M14 over a REAL Dragunov any day. Who wouldn't? A transferable M14 would be worth 4x a Russian Dragunov. You could sell it, and have enough to buy an NM M1A and real Dragunov, a PSL and a big stack of ammo.

sgtdills
January 13, 2010, 07:01 PM
Well I have handled both. That is why I am trying to decide. I have a couple buddies with Drags and they love them. But I also have buddies with m1a's. So I like them both. Just thought I would get some other input on here. Not trying to bash either weapon. Which is what it seems like some people are trying to do.

Brenten
January 13, 2010, 07:04 PM
I see your dilemma. I have had several chances at drags and do not have any interest in one. I love the M1A, it is a gentle shooting gun and extremely accurate. It is chambered in an infinitely more available round. you have tons of hunting loads for it and the gun itself comes with a 5 round mag so you can hunt with it and not look like a spec ops operator doing so. too many plusses.

DMK
January 13, 2010, 07:37 PM
Well I have handled both. That is why I am trying to decide. I have a couple buddies with Drags and they love them. But I also have buddies with m1a's. So I like them both. Just thought I would get some other input on here. Not trying to bash either weapon. Which is what it seems like some people are trying to do. Well, if you've handled them both, it's really going to come down to a matter of personal preference. Both are rugged and reliable.

The M1A is probably easier to accurize and certainly easier to accessorize. But that isn't really necessary for either rifle except to add a scope and mount to the M1A (the PSL and Dragunov come with optics).

I think the Garand based rifles are overly complicated, and field stripping is a pain, especially compared to the PSL or Dragunov (or FAL for that matter).

Both rifles shoot very comparable rounds. 7.62x54R and 7.62x51 are about as close ballistically as you're going to get.

The Russian round is generally cheaper for surplus ammo, but that is corrosive meaning that you will need to clean the bore and gas system with soapy water before using bore cleaner and oil. Throwing it in your gun cabinet and cleaning it tomorrow really isn't an option unless you live in the desert. Commercial ammo is available, but not as common as 308.

7.62x51/ 308 will be more common in your local gunshop and sporting goods store. If you plan to use the rifle for hunting or self defense, you will have a lot more options in this caliber instead of FMJ. I don't know of even any surplus 7.62x51 that is corrosive, so that isn't a problem.

zombieslayer
January 13, 2010, 09:28 PM
M1A

olyinaz
January 13, 2010, 09:51 PM
Unless you're talking about a real Dragunov action rifle (the Kalashnikov action PSL is NOT a "Dragunov") I think it's pretty obvious that an M1A is the more desirable rifle. Heck, I got my PSL because I can't afford an M1A!!

Now a real Dragunov? Shoot, I'll take one any day over an M1A.

Oly

sgtdills
January 13, 2010, 11:11 PM
I was reading this article.http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_5_51/ai_n13469625/ It states that the PSL is not that far off from a true Drag.

ronl
January 14, 2010, 12:10 AM
What can you do to accurize a Dragunov other than modify the trigger? I cannot see how it is possible to get a Dragunov to shoot as well as a match prepped M1A. The cost of surplus 7.62x54R may be cheaper, but it's certainly not going to get you match accuracy out of the Dragunov. That leaves handloading, which will cost about the same for either rifle. I also imagine that getting parts for a true SVD would be rather difficult and expensive. That being said, I'd take the M1A anyday over an SVD.

FALPhil
January 14, 2010, 01:25 AM
I was reading this article.http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_n13469625/ It states that the PSL is not that far off from a true Drag.
Don't believe everything you read on the 'net. By that criteria, a S&W Sigma is not that far off from a Sig P226.

allons
January 14, 2010, 02:21 AM
Anybody here actually own an M1A and a PSL (or even a Drag)? (Quote; DMK)

Yep! Sure do. The answer to your question kinda depends on what you call long range and what you expect the rifle to do.

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m249/Allons11/guns/th_006.jpg (http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m249/Allons11/guns/006.jpg)
If you are asking about the FPK,(PSL, Romak III) compared to the M1A, I have a few opinions. If you want to know about the true Dragunov, can't help, never owned one.

To start with, my FPK gets more range time than my M1As because it does precisely what I bought it for. If you keep the bbl cool, it will hold 2 MOA or better all day long. Cheap to buy & shoot, easy to clean and I like the 7.62X54R round. For the majority of my shooting its ideal. Note; the steel plates under the FPK were shot at 200 yds While they were SWINGING. Please don't judge the accuracy of the rifle by them! :)

Like ronl points out, there is only so much you can do to the FPK to make it more accurate. With the M1A you can really blow the budget, but if you do you will have a sub MOA rifle, if that is what you need.

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m249/Allons11/th_mias2tu.jpg (http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m249/Allons11/mias2tu.jpg)

The standard SA M1A right out of the box has very similar accuracy to the PSL type rifle, around 2 MOA, maybe a little less. The M1A bbl won't be affected by the heat as quick and string your shots like the long, skinny bbl of the PSL.

If you need a sub MOA rifle and don't mind spending the money, in my opinion you might want to go with the M1A, if 1 1/2 - 2 MOA is good enough try the PSL. Both have been super reliable for me.

These are just a few thoughts about MY rifles, I'm sure other people have had different results with theirs. Good luck whichever way you go!

HiBC
January 14, 2010, 02:31 AM
I am not qualified to offer an opinion.You might try reading John Plaster's book
"The Ultimate Sniper"

cgbills
January 14, 2010, 08:41 AM
Out of the two the M1A. It is more accurate and match ammo, which you NEED to get good groups, is more readily available. 2 MOA is unacceptable for a precision rifle (please note I said precision not service rifle). Now if I were you I would look at an AR 10 or a DPMS LR308. More options available and great accuracy out of the box.

DMK
January 14, 2010, 09:08 AM
I was reading this article.http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_n13469625/ It states that the PSL is not that far off from a true Drag. The PSL is basically a Romanian AK with a long barrel and upscaled to shoot the larger cartridge. It has different mags, a longer gas tube, longer stamped receiver, stronger bolt and carrier, but otherwise it is assembled in the same way, operates the same way and some parts are even interchangable (for example the trigger parts, safety and sight components are fully interchangable with a Romanian AK and therefore any AKM).

The Dragunov, while based loosely on the AK has no interchangable parts, a different gas system a different handguard design and a milled reciever. It is about as close to an AK as an M1A or M14 is to a Garand.

They are similar cosmetically and are used for the same role (as is the M14 today) but that's it.

DMK
January 14, 2010, 09:15 AM
The standard SA M1A right out of the box has very similar accuracy to the PSL type rifle, around 2 MOA, maybe a little less. The M1A bbl won't be affected by the heat as quick and string your shots like the long, skinny bbl of the PSL. That was what I was thinking. I've shot both and felt that they were very comparable out of the box. What the M1A/M14 gives you (other than much better iron sights) is the better aftermarket and gunsmithing support to accessorize and accurize it as far as your credit limit will allow.

combat_master
January 14, 2010, 11:58 AM
Originally Posted by allons
The standard SA M1A right out of the box has very similar accuracy to the PSL type rifle, around 2 MOA, maybe a little less. The M1A bbl won't be affected by the heat as quick and string your shots like the long, skinny bbl of the PSL.

That was what I was thinking. I've shot both and felt that they were very comparable out of the box. What the M1A/M14 gives you (other than much better iron sights) is the better aftermarket and gunsmithing support to accessorize and accurize it as far as your credit limit will allow.

DMK nailed it. Trust me an M1A is much easier to have work done on than a PSL, that is if you are going for an accurate semi auto Designated marksmen style rifle.

bamaranger
January 16, 2010, 02:17 AM
My SSG/PSL is nowhere near the equal of my agency issued M14 (semi only) Win mfg bbl and receiver/Springfield trigger group, Springfield mount, Burris scope and rings. The M14 has a bedding problem (I think) and is quirky UNTIL it gets hot. Then it shoots sub MOA w/ factory 168's. When it cools, it shifts POI slightly, then shoots bug holes when hot again. Parts, upgrades and match ammo readily available. Factory trigger is a dream. ( I snitched it from another rifle, no I did not break up an all Win rifle, as this one had a Springfield trigger to start!) When it gets the shifting solved, this rifle will be phenomenal.

I bought the SSG/PSL, w/ Belarus 8X scope and 1000 rds of ammo for about half of what a stock, unscoped M1A would cost w/ no ammo. On a good day the SSG/PSL might shoot 2 MOA. 3-4 more often, sometimes more. Parts, upgrades a roll of the dice. Match ammo scarce to nill. Factory trigger is awful, think AK.

DMK
January 16, 2010, 11:48 AM
The M14 has a bedding problem (I think) and is quirky UNTIL it gets hot. Then it shoots sub MOA w/ factory 168's. When it cools, it shifts POI slightly, then shoots bug holes when hot again.That is quirky. Most rifles shoot better when cold and start throwing fliers or strings when hot.

Maybe the barrel is touching the stock when cold and pulls away when it heats up.

olyinaz
January 16, 2010, 01:08 PM
DMK nailed it. Trust me an M1A is much easier to have work done on than a PSL, that is if you are going for an accurate semi auto Designated marksmen style rifle.

Oh heck yeah - absolutely. Any work on a PSL would be custom gunsmithing and while there's nothing wrong with that (witness the full zoot PSL one of our guys here is working on) it's gonna cost a lot and there's no large base of experience out there working on them.

No, the reason to buy a PSL is because it's cheap and one heckuva lot of fun. Unless someone starts importing them anew the reason to buy a Dragunov is because it's a collector's item in the U.S. For other uses/reasons choose something else.

Oly

SR420
January 16, 2010, 02:03 PM
sgtdills I am looking at getting a long range auto loading rifle.

My long range auto loading rifle is this M21A5 Crazy Horse EBR built for me by Smith Enterprise, Inc.
Changes since picture was taken: Medium Heavy Crazy Horse barrel replaced standard profile tube.
The VFG has been removed and the Aimpoint Micro T-1 is now mounted low on a LaRue LT724.

http://www.athenswater.com/images/M21A5_EBR-1.jpg

varoadking
January 16, 2010, 02:35 PM
What's that thing weigh, Waterman, and what kind of 5 shot groups will it punch at 100 yards?

What's your best long range group and what sort of ammo did you use?

brian45auto
January 16, 2010, 09:09 PM
one of each, problem solved.
the psl is cheaper to buy and feed, by about half on both counts.
psl= $600
440rds=$90

m1a=$1200+

on a good day i can make 2.0-3.0" 10 shot psl groups, using a certain country's surplus ammo....still working on my hand loads for it.

have one of the 16" m1a's, no glass.....it hits what i point it at out to 180 yards. that'w with steel cased russian .308.

L_Killkenny
January 16, 2010, 09:16 PM
I'd keep the Savage and buy brass, powder, primers and bullets.

LK

SR420
January 17, 2010, 10:17 PM
varoadking What's that thing weigh, Waterman, and what kind of 5 shot groups will it punch at 100 yards?

What's your best long range group and what sort of ammo did you use?

Road guy, the same basic rifle has fired sub-MOA groups at 1000 yards with LC M118LR.
The rifle fired did not have the benefit of the SAGE EBR chassis, it was in a GI synthetic stock.

My M21A5 Crazy Horse EBR has not returned from Smith Enterprise, Inc. yet. I will weigh it when
I get the chance, but I expect it it will tip the scales at about 14.5 lbs. and it should be capable
of matching the accuracy of the M21A5 CH in the synthetic stock pictured below.

http://www.smithenterprise.com/images02/M21A5-benning.jpg
This M21A5 was tested at Ft. Benning in March of 2008, it fired groups under 1 MOA at 1000 yards with M118LR ammo.