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warrior697
December 27, 2009, 10:24 AM
I would like to know if I could buy a C&R handgun for a friend who does not have a C&R but does have a handgun permit. I understand I will still have to record the transaction in my bound book. Any help of this subject would be appreciated.

j-framer
December 27, 2009, 05:06 PM
Provided your friend's handgun permit allows him to legally possess the gun in question, then yes, of course - I cannot think of a scenario in which it would make any difference how the gun reaches your friend. It seems to me that all that matters is that he be properly licensed to acquire/own the firearm. I am assuming that you and he are in the same state. If we're talking about interstate transactions, he would indeed need an FFL of his own if he wanted to receive shipment directly to his residence.

Please note that I am not an attorney and I am unfamiliar with your state's laws. My advice is that you consult a knowledgeable person in your home state regarding this issue. But, as I said above, on the surface there doesn't seem to be any problem with what you propose.

jonnyc
December 27, 2009, 05:35 PM
No, that is a "straw purchase", and illegal. Your C&R does not allow you to buy guns for others, only to enhance your own collection.
If you get a C&R pistol and eventually decide you don't want it, you can sell it to him and do a legal transfer in your state.

kilimanjaro
December 27, 2009, 05:49 PM
JonnyC is absolutely correct. You may not purchase a firearm, C&R or not, for any other person, regardless of their status. That is a 'straw purchase' and a felony, a pretty big one. Your license allows you to purchase firearms for your own collection across state lines. You are allowed to occaisonally sell a firearm from your listed C&R collection in order to enhance your collection, that is when you may engage in the dealing of firearms. You may sell a firearm not part of your C&R collection (all non-C&R weapons and all C&R weapons purchased before obtaining the C&R license), on an occaisonal basis, as well.

If you do sell a C&R weapon from your collection, it must be logged in your record book as a 'disposal by sale.' Weapons from your personal, pre-C&R collection that are C&R eligible must also be logged in as 'disposal by sale (from personal collection).'

SwampYankee
December 27, 2009, 05:57 PM
Weapons from your personal, pre-C&R collection that are C&R eligible must also be logged in as 'disposal by sale (from personal collection).'

How can that be correct? Is that actually in the regulations somewhere? If it is not in my C&R book for the initial purchase/gift/possession, how in the world can I add it for the sake of selling it? If I were to tell the person I was shipping it to that I had a C&R and that was a part of the sale (ie: the FFL I was sending it to would only accept handguns through the mail from a C&R or an FFL), then I can see putting it in the book. But if I walk into a gun store, tell them I want to sell them a gun and they buy it over-the-counter, how can there be any expectation that it now be placed in the book?

kilimanjaro
December 27, 2009, 06:28 PM
SwampYankee, check your regulations, see 478.41(d) and 478.125. Once you have a C&R license, the requirements apply to disposal of C&R weapons as well as purchases, beginning the day your license was issued.

As to how in the world you add it to the book, it's easy, just log it out as "disposal by sale (or gift), from personal collection". If you want to add "pre-C&R purchase", go right ahead.

James K
December 27, 2009, 08:06 PM
One definition of a dealer is a person who buys for the explicit purpose of resale. I don't know if buying a gun to sell to someone who is legally allowed to own it would be a "straw sale" or not, but it could open you up to a claim that you are dealing in guns, a no-no for a C&R license holder.

Jim

warrior697
December 27, 2009, 08:27 PM
thanks for the help guys. The gun in question is a CZ-82, I guess I could always keep it for myself.

madcratebuilder
December 28, 2009, 07:38 AM
thanks for the help guys. The gun in question is a CZ-82, I guess I could always keep it for myself.

Keep the revolver yourself. You could "loan" it to your friend and if you decide to sell it in the future I don't see an issue with that.

SwampYankee
December 28, 2009, 07:58 PM
kilimanjaro,

I'm pretty sure you are wrong. I went through the regs and it does not indicate anywhere that an item obtained before the C&R was issued is subject to the C&R procedures. Unless it says so explicitly, and I cannot find it, it seems likely this is a grey area and I highly doubt that as long as the firearm is legally transferred via a 4473 form, ATF is going to care.

Please forward the explicit language, I would like to know for sure.

j-framer
December 28, 2009, 08:20 PM
Good God - straw purchase?

Kilimanjaro and jonnyc, I'm amazed that you apparently do not know what a straw purchase is. A straw purchase is not "buying a firearm for someone else". A straw purchase is the purchase of a firearm for someone who cannot legally purchase the firearm himself.

And this is after warrior697 went out of his way to point out that his friend is licensed and therefore may legally acquire and possess the gun in question. Straw purchase? Explain, please.

If I, as a fully licensed individual, wish to buy a gun for my sister, who holds the state license required to possess the gun I'm buying for her, I may do that all day long without ever being guilty of a "straw purchase". Provided we complete all paperwork required for a person-to-person transfer in my home state, there is nothing remotely questionable about the legality of these actions.

The "reselling-a-gun-you-bought-with-your-C&R" issue is another matter, of course. (By the way, nowhere did warrior697 mention selling anything. But we'll assume he is going to "resell" the gun to his friend). Assuming he's not trying to gouge his buddy, and is going to ask only what he paid for it, I fail to see how this is a problem. A dealer resells for profit - as I understand Warrior's situation, there is no motivation to make a profit here, only to get the firearm into his (licensed) friend's hands.

Yes, I know the C&R is intended solely to assist the holder in building a personal collection. So, I'm undecided on the C&R-reselling issue, I guess.

But buying a gun for a licensed individual and legally transferring it to him is a "straw purchase"? Wow.

kilimanjaro
December 31, 2009, 10:14 PM
It says right on the 4473 form, 'are you buying this weapon for yourself'. if not, you can't be sold the weapon. It does not say, 'are you buying this weapon as a gift to someone else.' I suggest you check with the ATF on what constitutes a straw sale, they will tell you, you can't buy a weapon for your brother-in-law, a law-abiding citizen, who is visiting from out of state. You can buy it with your own money and give it to him, or sell it to him, but you can't buy it for him.

limpetmine
January 1, 2010, 12:00 AM
THE OP's question was could he buy a pistol for a friend who didn't have a C&R. That answer is a simple NO. Your license is for YOUR collection activities. Buying with intention of selling/gifting etc. is illegal with an 03 license. It says so on the face of the license. Read it!

Kilimajaro, you are correct on both points. You CAN NOT buy a gun for someone else. As you say, you can buy it (from an 01 FFL) and gift it to him later. (I'm not entirely sure this is 100% correct in all conditions).
No, you can NOT use your C&R licence (EVER) to buy a gun (with the intention) to sell, loan, gift or in any other way transfer to another person. Doing so is "engaging in the business" which is expressly forbidden with an 03 FFL. Dancing around words to make the situation fit won't work when your in front of a ATF judge (with no jury). (you are buying to enhance your collection, (and this does not preclude you from making an occasional sale) And if you're busted doing it, you'll help ruin the 03 FFL for the rest of us. And asking if you can do it on a public forum CAN be used against you!
As to disposal of C&R acquired prior to your license, they ARE to be logged out. Its in black and white. Enter "owned prior to license" in the first section when you log it out. The regs say "ALL Curio and Relics are to be logged out" it doesn't say "All C & R's purchased AFTER issuance of your license.."
The corollary of this is that all C&R's are to be logged in, regardless of how they are acquired.
The best way to learn about this stuff is to read boards like this then go find it yourself (by proving or disproving the point). Good stuff. :D

Here is the text from the ATF web site about straw purchases...
"
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
Fact Sheet
Public Affairs Division – Washington, DC
June 2008

www.atf.gov
Contact: ATF Public Affairs Division

(202) 648-8500
“Don’t Lie For The Other Guy” Campaign
Purpose
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has partnered with the National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF)-the trade association for the firearms industry-in designing an educational program to assist firearm retailers in the detection and possible deterrence of “straw purchases,” the illegal purchase of a firearm by one person for another. The Department of Justice’s Project Safe Neighborhoods initiative has enhanced the program by providing funding to raise public awareness of the criminality involved in purchasing a firearm for a prohibited person.

Goals
The goal of the “Don’t Lie for the Other Guy” program is to reduce firearm straw purchases at the retail level and to educate would-be straw purchasers of the penalties of knowingly participating in an illegal firearm purchase. The denial of guns to prohibited persons is critical to the mission of ATF in preventing violent crime and protecting the nation.

Strategy/Results
ATF, in partnership with NSSF, has conducted more than 60 firearms retailer educational seminars to better inform and train several thousand Federal firearms licensees (FFL) in detecting and deterring illegal straw purchases.

NSSF has distributed Don’t Lie retailer education kits to more than 34,000 firearms retailers and to gun show promoters and pawn shops.

The program encourages licensees to work closely with their local ATF office to deter straw purchases. Residents in ATF-selected areas are made aware of the program’s message through billboard advertising, radio and TV public service announcements, as well as through media coverage of news conferences attended by U.S. Attorneys, ATF, law enforcement and representatives from the firearms industry. The combination of retailer education and public awareness components sends a powerful message to deter straw purchases.

In 2008-2009, the revamped campaign is being released in six cities. ATF and NSSF expanded the campaign to include alerting potential straw purchasers of the penalties of buying a gun for someone who cannot or will not buy one for themselves. This new consumer awareness program reinforces the message that buying a gun for someone who is prohibited is a federal crime punishable by up to 10 years in prison and a fine of up to $250,000. The revised campaign includes public service radio announcements, highway bill boards, and high-profile signage at transit bus stops and on the sides of buses.

For more information on ATF’s programs, please visit the website at www.atf.gov.
"

SwampYankee
January 2, 2010, 08:51 AM
limpetmine,

The regs say "ALL Curio and Relics are to be logged out" it doesn't say "All C & R's purchased AFTER issuance of your license.."

The best way to learn about this stuff is to read boards like this then go find it yourself (by proving or disproving the point). Good stuff. :D

The best way for me to believe you is for you to do me the favor and give me the regulation so that I can then look it up- insert obnoxious smiley face here so I can pass off being snarky as being playful and the mods won't get upset (sarcasm).

Unsubstantiated opinions are not helpful to anyone. Until you provide the regulation or the line of text from the ATF with a reference AND CONTEXT, that is all you are doing. Link please?

Follow your own advice- you seem pretty knowledgeable about straw purchases and you provide a link. That was helpful to the OP. Give me the C&R link.

Normally, I wouldn't engage in this topic because it is not germane to my situation. None of my C&R's were purchased before I got the license so it doesn't effect me. It is just nice when people provide the black and white to substantiate their commentary.

Here is a link to another forum where a similar (but not quite) discussion took place and a response from ATF:

http://www.odcmp.org/new_forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=45749

Department of the Treasury
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
Washington, DC 20226

Dear Mr. Rxxx,
This is in response to your letter dated October 18, 1996, requesting information concerning the acquisition and disposition of curio and relic firearms.
In response to your questions, we feel the following information will resolve your areas of concern and confusion:
(A) Current regulations do not require licensed collectors to record in their bound book firearms acquired prior to obtaining their license. Therefore, subsequent sales of the previously acquired firearms would require no entry in your bound book records.

(B) If, after obtaining a license, a firearm is acquired for your personal collection, it must be entered into your bound book whether or not you use your collectors' license to purchase the weapon. See 27CFR 178.125(f). Any subsequent sale would have to be entered in your bound book records.

Sincerely yours,
Charles Bartlett
Acting Chief
Firearms and Explosives Operations Branch

I'm not going to waste my time writing my own letter to ATF to get the same response, but there it is, for what is worth. Frankly, I'm not sure why anyone would make such a letter up but if I was interested in getting my own copy, I would write ATF.

jonnyc
January 2, 2010, 11:35 AM
Swamp-If you read that thread carefully, you would see that the letter you posted was NOT confirmed by the ATF, and might not be accurate information. In addition, there was nothing in that thread to contradict the widely-understood concept that C&R weapons purchased before getting a C&R license must be logged in/out when they are disposed of. I do not understand why you are advocating that C&R holders err on the side of legal danger when erring on the side of legal safety is simple and the best course. If you are disposing of the weapon, log it in. What's the down side???

SwampYankee
January 2, 2010, 01:17 PM
Yes, the original thread from the CMP board does indicate that the letter was not confirmed by the ATF and may or may not be accurate. I indicated in my last post that, "if I was interested in getting my own copy, I would write ATF" alluding to the fact that anything you read on the internet is subject to verification.

However, that does not mean the original did not come from the ATF, simply that the ATF would not authenticate the letter 10 years later. This should not surprise anyone because the left hand of the ATF never has any idea what the right hand of the ATF is doing.

And it is possible that while this letter was their legitimate interpretation in 1996, it is no longer their interpretation. But since no one has bothered to resubmit the question and no one can point to the language in an ATF publication or to a specific regulation, your phrase,

contradict the widely-understood concept

is once again just an opinion. People "widely understand" that you can't ship a handgun through the USPS. And in fact, they are dead wrong and you can legally send a handgun through the USPS from FFL01 to FFL01.

There are plenty of "widely understood" concepts that are not understood at all. Provide me a regulation or ATF text and I am a believer, until then, it is just an opinion.

You ask what the downside is? The downside is that the each ATF agent is a law unto himself. Some get bent out of shape if you abbreviate the state in you log book. Some get upset if you use blue pen. Some get upset if you wear yellow shoes. And there is very little oversight of these guys or quality control over their work.

So the downside is, if you put an item in your book and say "purchased before C&R" you may someday find yourself dealing with an agent who wants the paperwork from that pre-C&R purchase- even though you don't legally need it. But that does not stop the ATF- have I mentioned that each agent is a law unto himself? Sure, the ATF doesn't care too much about C&R holders, but if you ended up in front of one, wouldn't you want that book to answer more questions than it raises?

My point is, if it gets sold without ever being in your C&R book (because it was purchased before you got a C&R book), you will never get hassled by anyone. Ever. As long as you sell it with the appropriate ATF 4473, follow your state laws, blah, blah, blah.

If you can show me the regulation or a phrase in the ATF paperwork that says, "when a C&R gun is purchased before the acquisition of a C&R license but sold after the C&R license is issued, said firearm must be logged into the C&R book for the sale", I will concede that this must the truth. But please show me, I just want proof, not opinions as to what is true.

kilimanjaro
January 2, 2010, 02:23 PM
SwampYankee, again, check your regulations, see 478.41(d) and 478.125.

You will readily determine the license regulates the purchase and disposal of C&R firearms, as of the day the license is issued. You do agree with that legal concept, yes? If not, kindly inform us, without giving us your personal opinion, as you distrust them, how the disposal of a C&R firearm by a licensee is not regulated by the law. Please use the regulations above, and only the regulations, to present your case. Use only the words of the regulations, instead of words not present, in making your argument.

You also agree the law is intended to regulate ALL C&R purchases or disposals by a licensee, right? Again, read the two regulations cited above. If you disagree, kindly inform us how the law is not intended to regulate ALL C&R purchases or disposals by a licensee, but just some of them, even though regulating some instead of all is not stated.

Also inform us how the act needs to expressly mention you by name in order to outweigh your personal fear of rogue ATF agents wearing yellow shoes before it will apply to your activities. But don't allow your personal opinion to intrude on your objections, after all, you don't trust such things. Kindly read the regulations yourself, rather than ask us to post them for you.

If you have such an inordinate fear of ATF agents that you refuse to perform something as minor as recording the sale of a lethal weapon to a friend or relative in a document that will probably never be seen by the ATF, perhaps you should not be licensed in the first place.

jonnyc
January 2, 2010, 05:37 PM
This is in 478.125a:

"That when disposition is made of a firearm or firearm curio or relic not entered in the bound record under the provisions of this paragraph, the licensed dealer or licensed collector making such disposition shall enter all required acquisition information regarding the firearm or firearm curio or relic in the bound record at the time such transfer or disposition is made."

This should be "widely understood" by all C&R holders who can read.

SwampYankee
January 2, 2010, 06:51 PM
I'm, sorry but I cannot find that sentence in my copy of the regs. Which year is it from? Mine is from 2005 and was up to date as late as 2008. No such sentence exists in my copy. Is there an online source for that statement? Please post the link.

In my copy of the regs, 478.125a deals exclusively with an FFL01 and personal firearms, there is no mention of C&R03 licensees.

I should note that according to your information that if you bought the C&R ten years ago and forgot all the required information from that purchase, you're screwed, wouldn't you say?

No where in your text does the ATF say, "Bought before C&R" is an acceptable entry. If you go through their regulations, they are VERY specific as to dates, FFL numbers licenses, addresses, etc. And if you can't all that info in your book, does it not seem better just to keep it out?

SwampYankee
January 2, 2010, 07:09 PM
I just found the sentence. And you're still wrong.

You meant to say 478.125(g). Here is the whole paragraph. You missed the context. Understanding words is not the same as comprehension. This is straight from the ATF 4/2009 regs:

g) Commercial records of firearms received. When a commercial
record is held by a licensed dealer or licensed collector showing the
acquisition of a firearm or firearm curio or relic, and such record
contains all acquisition information required by the bound record
prescribed by paragraphs (e) and (f) of this section, the licensed
dealer or licensed collector acquiring such firearm or curio or relic,
may, for a period not exceeding 7 days following the date of such
acquisition, delay making the required entry into such bound record:
Provided, That the commercial record is, until such time as the required
entry into the bound record is made, (1) maintained by the licensed
dealer or licensed collector separate from other commercial documents
maintained by such licensee, and (2) readily available for inspection on
the licensed premises:

[[Page 75]]

Provided further, That when disposition is made of a firearm or firearm
curio or relic not entered in the bound record under the provisions of
this paragraph, the licensed dealer or licensed collector making such
disposition shall enter all required acquisition information regarding
the firearm or firearm curio or relic in the bound record at the time
such transfer or disposition is made.

For the comprehension impaired, I have highlighted the germane portion of the section. What it means is, if you buy it and you can't get it into your book immediately, you have 7 days from your purchase to do it if you have all the pertinent information (commercial record = sales slip). The part you quote means that if you then sell the gun, you have to put all the information (purchases and disposition) into your book. This part is likely referring to an FFL01 because if you are an FFL03 are selling a gun 4 days after buying it, you're probably breaking more important laws.

NO WHERE does it say you have to put the sale information into your book if you purchased it without a C&R. Period.

DaveBeal
January 2, 2010, 07:13 PM
Regarding the definition of a straw purchase, the ATF's Federal Firearms Regulations Guidelines say:

In some instances, a straw purchaser is used because the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm. That is to say, the actual purchaser is a felon or is within one of the other prohibited categories of persons who may not lawfully acquire firearms or is a resident of a State other than that in which the licensee's business premises is located. Because of his or her disability, the person uses a straw purchaser who is not prohibited from purchasing a firearm from the licensee. In other instances, neither the straw purchaser nor the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm.

In both instances, the straw purchaser violates Federal law by making false statements on Form 4473 to the licensee with respect to the identity of the actual purchaser of the firearm, as well as the actual purchaser's residence address and date of birth. The actual purchaser who utilized the straw purchaser to acquire a firearm has unlawfully aided and abetted or caused the making of the false statements. The licensee selling the firearm under these circumstances also violates Federal law if the licensee is aware of the false statements on the form. It is immaterial that the actual purchaser and the straw purchaser are residents of the State in which the licensee's business premises is located, are not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms, and could have lawfully purchased firearms from the licensee.

kilimanjaro
January 3, 2010, 03:59 PM
You posted, directly from the regs,

"Provided further, That when disposition is made of a firearm or firearm
curio or relic not entered in the bound record under the provisions of
this paragraph, the licensed dealer or licensed collector making such
disposition shall enter all required acquisition information regarding
the firearm or firearm curio or relic in the bound record at the time
such transfer or disposition is made. "

And then added that NOWHERE does it require you to post a firearm acquired without your C&R license. You have a comprehension disability, the regulation you posted says a 'firearm curio or relic'. Further, it applies to a disposition of same that are 'not entered in the bound record'. That means, quite clearly, that all sales or gifts from your collection get logged in. Whether you have the paperwork or not, you use your best memory. I would personally rather have logged in an old C&R with only serial number and date of sale and to whom sold rather than log in nothing because 30-year old paperwork was not at hand.

gyvel
January 3, 2010, 06:00 PM
(B) If, after obtaining a license, a firearm is acquired for your personal collection, it must be entered into your bound book whether or not you use your collectors' license to purchase the weapon. See 27CFR 178.125(f). Any subsequent sale would have to be entered in your bound book records.

Slightly OT, but this, if it is, in fact, a genuine ATF letter, is the answer I have been waiting for for over a month from them.

The original hypothetical situation was that you have seen and purchased a known (to you) C&R gun in a gun store and the owner, who is an 01 FFL refuses to honor your 03 FFL and makes you fill out a 4473 for the purchase.

The question was: Does the fact that the gun was sold to you on a 4473 preclude you having to enter it into your A&D book, since you were denied the use of your 03 license?

And apparently the answer is that you enter it no matter how it was acquired.

Rather a stupid concept, in light of the fact that, had it been a modern weapon (i.e. NOT a C&R), it would not have to be entered into your A&D.

SwampYankee
January 3, 2010, 06:18 PM
kilimanjaro,

You are still wrong. You forgot to comprehend the phrase, "firearm curio or relic not entered in the bound record under the provisions of this paragraph". Seems like you're just never gonna get it, are you? I know a thing about contracts and legal documents and I can tell you that this clause is very specific to the condition it describes. All you have to do is read it. It is not a broad generalization and no lawyer or judge in the United States is going to interpret it in the way you are trying. Nor is any prosecutor for the US, working on an ATF case. It just doesn't mean what you think it does.

When I said, "NO WHERE does it say you have to put the sale information into your book if you purchased it without a C&R. Period." I meant BEFORE you acquired the C&R, which is what the discussion is actually about. I was never debating how you purchase an item if you already have a C&R. Still your comprehension defect, but compounded by an omission in my language. However, seeing as how you are participating in a discussion already underway and not walking into it after-the-fact, I would expect you to kindly keep up. Feel free to also pick on my speling if it mackes you fell beter! Get it? ;)

Which brings me to gyvel. Thank you, gyvel, for the info. Still does not settle the question at hand but it's a good piece of information. It speaks to the difference between an FFL01 and FFL03, whereas an FFL01 can take an item off his commercial books and put it into a private inventory and an FFL03 cannot because his inventory is already a private collection.