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roger1shot
December 12, 2009, 09:00 PM
Hi
My brother is thinking about buying a Savage Muzzlerloader either a 10ML Or a 10ML-ll.
What's the good and bad on these Savage Muzzlerloaders?
Thank's

Brian Pfleuger
December 12, 2009, 09:11 PM
The good is that they shoot smokeless powder, their accurate as hell without being cleaned after every shot and they have the accu-trigger.

The bad is.... Uh,..... Well,...

Somebody will have something on the bad side, I imagine.

andrewstorm
December 12, 2009, 09:18 PM
the only down side is that the atf is uneasy over the 110 ml being able to digest a healthy load of modern powder,also some states (mich)do not allow smokeless loads, but u can allways use blackhorn 209 ,777, whitehot,ect to push velociety past 2000fps,other magnum front stuffers are available ,some can take 4 777 pellets or 200 gr blackhorn 209 ,whatever u decide remember,buy american!

Crosshair
December 12, 2009, 09:21 PM
This info was acquired at the range from someone who owns one.

The only "bad" thing is that you have to be careful about how warm it gets. The sabots tend to not work so well in a warm gun and the smokeless powder tends to heat up the gun more than black after a few shots. Nothing dangerous, you will just get degraded accuracy.

Other than that they guy loved it.

Pahoo
December 13, 2009, 10:48 AM
Whenever I read an initial post, I try to address his or her specific questions, rather than listing my personal prejudices. My passion is in traditionals but promote all M/L's. Given that, the 10ML has many positives and to date, see no negatives as far as performance goes. I do not own one but have shot two at our range. However, if ones falls in my lap, it certainly will be welcomed. It's a hard loader, hard hitter and can be a hard kicker. Very well engineered and accurate. To date, I have not run into an owner that does not like them; on the contrary. :)
The only "bad" thing is that you have to be careful about how warm it gets. The sabots tend to not work so well in a warm gun and the smokeless powder tends to heat up the gun more than black after a few shots. Nothing dangerous, you will just get degraded accuracy.
Yes, this information has been published before and not well founded. There were problems with cheaper sabots due to hot loads and this can be reduced by the additiona of a bore button buffer.

Personally, the only bad thing I can come up with is that they are not as much fun to shoot, as my SideLocks ... JMHO .... ;)


Be Safe !!!

simonkenton
December 13, 2009, 11:03 AM
the only down side is that the atf is uneasy over the 110 ml being able to digest a healthy load of modern powder

True, and not true.
The first Savage, the 10ML, was listed by ATF as a modern firearm, because ATF decided it was easy to convert to a cartridge shooting gun.
This was not true, but Savage modified the gun, and the new 10ML2 is, and always has been rated by ATF as a muzzleloader.
Not many 10MLs out there anyway, just another good reason to buy the ML2

I have had one of these rifles for 5 years and I love it.
The notion about the warm barrel causing inaccuracy is quite true, I'm afraid.
It is the only thing I dislike about the gun. On an 80 degree day you will wait 15 long minutes between shots, or your groups will go to crap.
There are some bore-cooling tricks, but, I just wait the 15 minutes.

Does this negate the gun's effectiveness for hunting?
Not at all. Any good hunter knows that the whole point is to make the first shot count. Also, hunting is usually done in cool weather, so if your barrel is 30 degrees to begin with, you can make a quick second shot and still be accurate.

This is a great rifle, accurate and fun to shoot, I really like it.

FrontierGander
December 13, 2009, 02:54 PM
The Bad,
http://picasaweb.google.com/tfprocter/GunDamage?authkey=Gv1sRgCLGz3rj1-N6LvQE&feat=email#5400211921237988674

BigV
December 13, 2009, 03:21 PM
The Bad,
http://picasaweb.google.com/tfprocte...11921237988674

Any additional information available other than the pictures?
I didn't see anything.
It would be nice to know the cause of the barrel exploding. Was there too much powder, double load or are these gun prone to this type of damage?

From the injuries I see in the picture, I would be very hesitant to to even fire one let alone own one if this is a common occurrence.

simonkenton
December 13, 2009, 04:20 PM
This story has been out for over a month.
This happened to a guy in Canada.

The Savage is built, and proofed to far higher pressure than any other muzzleloader. The factory tested a gun with a double powder charge and one bullet, and all they got was a slight bulge in the barrel.
I know lots of guys on the Savage forum who have 3,000, 4,000 and more rounds through their Savages with never a mishap.
This Canadian guy had less than 100 rounds through his rifle, ie, a Savage rookie.

Any rifle can and will blow up if there is too much smokeless powder, or if there is a bore obstruction.

The details of exactly what happened to cause this poor fellow's gun to blow have not been revealed.

I am not worried about my Savage, and will continue to shoot it regularly.

Smokey 92
December 13, 2009, 04:21 PM
Too much smokeless powder?

FrontierGander
December 13, 2009, 04:38 PM
heres some info on what could happen with the savage.
http://hpmuzzleloading.com/Alert.html

In truth, whenever a rifle, centerfire or muzzleloader, blows up, We will NEVER know the REAL story of what actually happened.

simonkenton
December 13, 2009, 04:55 PM
The guy at the hpmuzzleloading link is Toby Bridges.
Toby has a big time axe to grind against the Savage muzzleloader.
Toby used to be a rep for Savage, and he travelled the country putting on shooting exhibitions with the new smokeless muzzleloader.

In fact, on the internet, Toby talked me into buyng my Savage, 5 or 6 years ago. I exchanged quite a few emails with Toby, and I liked him.

Then, Toby started having problems with Savage and with the inventor of the rifle. He was maybe going to get fired, he was maybe going to sue, a big bunch of crap was going on, who knows what was the real deal, but there was some real bad blood of Toby vs Savage and Mr. Ball, the inventor.
Then, one of Toby's rifles blew up.

Well, this was one thing that was sure to damage the Savage company, their leading, but about-to-be-fired rep has a barrel blow. Curiously, nobody was hurt in that explosion.

This began a big debate in the Savage community, the pro Toby faction vs the anti Toby faction. It was a civil war.
I joined the anti Toby faction. We think he blew that barrel on purpose, and pulled the trigger with a 50 foot kite string.

Since that day, 5 years ago, I have not believed a thing Toby has had to say.
Yes he is a very knowledgable muzzleloader guy, knows a lot more than I do, but something real fishy about the whole Savage deal.

Anyway, this Canada deal looks legit, obviously that kid didn't do it on purpose, but he could have had a barrel obstruction, or way too much powder, who knows? I will keep up with this over on the Savage forum and if the real scoop ever comes out I will report it here.

Crosshair
December 13, 2009, 06:02 PM
+1. I wasn't going to bring up the Toby Bridges bit, but since it's here, don't believe anything he has to say about the Savage gun. That gun was blown up on purpose, no doubt about that to me.

simonkenton
December 13, 2009, 08:19 PM
Posted by BigV;

Any additional information available other than the pictures?
I didn't see anything.
It would be nice to know the cause of the barrel exploding. Was there too much powder, double load or are these gun prone to this type of damage?

From the injuries I see in the picture, I would be very hesitant to to even fire one let alone own one if this is a common occurrence.



On the thread about leaving a muzzleloader loaded long-term, you posted a quote from Randy Wakeman in which he said he would never do it, and you agreed with him wholeheartedly.

Randy Wakeman sells custom made Savage muzzleloaders. He loves them! Like me, he thinks Toby Bridges blew his up on purpose.
Google up what Randy has said about the safety of the Savage, he argues that it is the strongest and best-tested of any inline.

So, are you going to believe Randy on long term storage, but not believe him about the safety of the Savage?

On the other hand, Randy has gone on at length about how unsafe the CVA inline is. He says it is made in Spain, has not been properly proof-tested, and is not strong enough, and will blow up.
Randy has stories about CVA inlines that have blown up.
Yet, CVA sells inlines by the thousands, there are probably more CVA inlines out there, than there are Savages.

Zhe Wiz
December 13, 2009, 08:50 PM
I LOVE my ML2. It's the first and only muzzleloader I have ever owned. From all the research I did before I bought, and I did a LOT, and having owned it for a year, I have NO IDEA why anyone would NOT buy a Savage smokeless over ANY other muzzleloader. Well, I can think of three reasons:

1. Because of archaic laws, you can't use smokeless.
2. You are a purist. (to each his own, I want the best tool for the job)
3. Price. You can buy cheaper black powder muzzleloaders.

Cleaning is just about the same as a regular rifle, accuracy with a proven load is OUTSTANDING, the accutrigger feels great, and did I mention how easy it is to clean? If it weren't for smokeless, I'd probably skip the whole muzzleloader thing. Get it, you won't regret it!

Zhe Wiz

Tons of info about them here:
http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=smokeless

FrontierGander
December 13, 2009, 08:53 PM
you dont need an accutrigger to get a sweet trigger. #2 reason, how well do the savages shoot full bore projectiles. How clean are they when you're shooting pyrodex/T7?

Zhe Wiz
December 13, 2009, 09:09 PM
you dont need an accutrigger to get a sweet trigger. #2 reason, how well do the savages shoot full bore projectiles. How clean are they when you're shooting pyrodex/T7?

Why would you want to shoot pyrodex/T7 out of a smokeless capable ML? I sure as heck wouldn't go near the stuff. And even if you did, the Savage is no worse to clean than any other muzzleloader. But you'd kill the greatest advantage of shooting smokeless. If you want to shoot a non-smokeless option, don't get the ML2! You're paying extra for no good reason.

Why would you want to shoot a full bore projectile? 45 cal. not big enough for you? I can't say how they shoot out of the Savage, never seen the need to do that either. Someone at Doug's message board has for sure. I've never read those posts, not interested.

Who said you needed an accutrigger to get a sweet trigger? I just said (as have others) that the Accutrigger is a great trigger. I KNOW there are other good triggers, I have a couple.

Zhe Wiz

FrontierGander
December 13, 2009, 09:12 PM
WHY?!!

Colorado does not allow Smokeless powder, must use open or iron sights only, full bore projectiles ONLY. Must be .50cal or large for elk,moose size game. The trigger on my cva accura is under 2lbs with zero creep or grit. Savage charges you an extra $100 for that.

Zhe Wiz
December 13, 2009, 09:18 PM
Colorado does not allow Smokeless powder...

Well there ya go. You fall under #1 above. You are not a good candidate for the Savage ML2.

Next!

Zhe Wiz

FrontierGander
December 13, 2009, 09:21 PM
legal or not, i wouldnt own one and shoot smokeless, i will save that for centerfire.

Zhe Wiz
December 13, 2009, 09:26 PM
legal or not, i wouldnt own one and shoot smokeless, i will save that for centerfire.

And again...why? You must like cleaning a lot better than I do. If I have to use a muzzleloader (and I do for the last 10 days of deer season here in NY) then I'm using smokeless. LOTS of advantages, NO disadvantages. Rifles are another subject altogether.

Zhe Wiz

Brian Pfleuger
December 13, 2009, 09:34 PM
legal or not, i wouldnt own one and shoot smokeless, i will save that for centerfire.


Well, I guess that's your choice. There's certainly no advantage to it. I can't say as I understand why anyone would not use the best equipment that they can get their hands on. There simply is no better ML than the Savage.

Of course, I don't understand the long bow and recurve guys either. The game is hard enough without handicapping myself.

FrontierGander
December 13, 2009, 09:45 PM
Hey my flinter goes 19 shots before i get tired and sore, my accura ive shots 6 times with no problems ( ran out of ammo) Cleaning is something that comes natural. For those of you that leave an expensive investment dirty after you're done playing... Shame on you!

I shoot both compound and recurve ( once in a great while) so no argument there. Both are fun to use. The compound just has more expensive stuff on it that will break.

Zhe Wiz
December 13, 2009, 09:56 PM
Hey my flinter goes 19 shots before i get tired and sore, my accura ive shots 6 times with no problems ( ran out of ammo) Cleaning is something that comes natural. For those of you that leave an expensive investment dirty after you're done playing... Shame on you!

And after all that, I *still* have no idea why you refuse to shoot smokeless.

Zhe Wiz

Brian Pfleuger
December 13, 2009, 10:12 PM
I shoot both compound and recurve ( once in a great while) so no argument there. Both are fun to use. The compound just has more expensive stuff on it that will break.

You sound like you have an irrationale fear of modern technology. If you truly believe that there is no advantage to the Savage ML and that the only difference between a compound and a recurve is that the compound is more likely to break... Well, I'm not sure what to say about that. No basis in reality at all, that's for sure.

FrontierGander
December 13, 2009, 10:26 PM
no fear, Just not for me. Like i said, if i wanted to shoot smokeless, i'd use a centerfire.

Brian Pfleuger
December 13, 2009, 10:37 PM
C'est La Vie.

That's what makes the world go 'round.

BigV
December 13, 2009, 10:54 PM
simonkenton wrote:

On the thread about leaving a muzzleloader loaded long-term, you posted a quote from Randy Wakeman in which he said he would never do it, and you agreed with him wholeheartedly.

I just posted the article. I did not AGREE with anyone!!

simonkenton wrote:
So, are you going to believe Randy on long term storage, but not believe him about the safety of the Savage?
Wow, perhaps you should ACTUALLY read my post.....


BigV wrote:
Any additional information available other than the pictures?
I didn't see anything.
It would be nice to know the cause of the barrel exploding. Was there too much powder, double load or are these gun prone to this type of damage?

From the injuries I see in the picture, I would be very hesitant to to even fire one let alone own one if this is a common occurrence.

So...., where is the part that I say anything about believing anybody regarding the safety of the Savage?
Please stop making stuff up, it make you look rather silly...

Brian Pfleuger
December 13, 2009, 11:01 PM
I love that link to pictures of a blown up gun.... as if that tells us ANYTHING.

The Savage is tested to 129,000 psi. 250% above max load.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/savage_ML_FAQ.htm

FrontierGander
December 13, 2009, 11:14 PM
RW says a lot of things.

Zhe Wiz
December 14, 2009, 12:48 AM
I love that link to pictures of a blown up gun.... as if that tells us ANYTHING.

Especially a picture posted by a man with a personal vendetta against Savage. Kinda "coincidental" that there are THOUSANDS of these guns out there and this guy is the only one to have any published failures, and he's had two? Smells fishy.

The Savage smokeless is as "safe" as any muzzleloader. If I didn't believe that, I certainly wouldn't shoot one. It's a GREAT muzzleloader for anyone who can legally use smokeless powder.

Zhe Wiz

Zhe Wiz
December 14, 2009, 01:03 AM
no fear, Just not for me. Like i said, if i wanted to shoot smokeless, i'd use a centerfire.

Dude, that makes NO sense. I'd love to use a center fire too, but when law states "muzzleloader", you can't use one. The question isn't if a Savage smokeless is better than a center fire or not. The question is if it's better than other black powder muzzleloaders.

Do you even HAVE a reason for your black powder preference? I'm trying to see if you have any information that would be helpful to the OP, or if you're just saying "I wouldn't use smokeless so it must not be good". Because honestly, that's all I've heard so far.

Zhe Wiz

simonkenton
December 14, 2009, 08:06 AM
BigV, having posted the Randy article, wherein he opposed leaving a muzzleloader loaded over night, then you posted this:

Put it in the shower with you for the two months to over simulate the worst conditions.

Then take the gun out and bet your entire season on that one shot. If it fires you harvest a nice buck and have venison on the table for the rest of the year. If it doesn't, well then you starve....

Are you willing to take that chance?

I'm not.

For the few cents it costs for powder, bullet and primer I will be a little more responsible.
But then again, that's just me...

You are saying that you are "responsible" becaue you will not leave your rifle loaded over night. This means you agree with Randy.
When someone posts a c and p from an author, without comment, it implies agreement with it.

You are an argumentative fellow.

FrontierGander
December 14, 2009, 01:04 PM
No reason to shoot smokeless. Why do you shoot smokeless? Just so you dont have to clean it that night or maybe a few days later?

300gr xtp, 120gr RS (88 weight) mmp-24 sabot, cci inline mzl primers.

3 shots @ 100 yards, No swabbing between shots, zero cool down.
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm53/thepowerbeltforum/XTP120grRS003.jpg

250gr Thor conicals, 105gr Pyro RS, Winchester 777 primers. 3 shots, 100 yards, a few minutes cool down time between each shot.
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm53/thepowerbeltforum/Thor%20Bullets/250gr%20Ballistic%20Tip/Accura250grBT004.jpg
Outside to outside,
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm53/thepowerbeltforum/Thor%20Bullets/250gr%20Ballistic%20Tip/Accura250grBT006.jpg

My brother in law with his first Inline Mzl buck he shot at 175 yards with the Thor load above.
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm53/thepowerbeltforum/Thor%20Bullets/JohnMLdeer004.jpg

Brian Pfleuger
December 14, 2009, 02:08 PM
No reason to shoot smokeless. Why do you shoot smokeless?

Seriously?

Ok, why smokeless and why Savage:

Dramatically lower cost per shot than Pyrodex
No corrosive residue
No heavy fouling
Less recoil for a similar velocity load
Your vision is not obscured after the shot
It is less flammable, more impact resistant, and safer to handle and store.
HUNDREDS of choices of propellant

The Savage is the only muzzleloader made that can pass SAMMI centerfire standards
It is the only truly sealed action muzzleloader on the market.
The strongest action of any muzzleloader on the market (chamber tested to 129,000 PSI)
The best trigger ever put on a factory muzzleloader.
The only muzzleloader factory pillar bedded with a floated barrel
One of the very few with 416 SS certified Gun Barrel Quality barrels (Savage makes their own barrels)
It cannot possibly stick a 209 shotshell primer due to its patented bolt face
It is the only production muzzleloader that is 100% function fired before shipment.
Easier to seat a sabot with the same pressure in a Savage, as there is dramatically less fouling to push your saboted projectile through


That info is all in the link I provided before.
Those are not only reasons TO shoot smokeless, they are an equally compelling list refuting your assertion that there is "no reason not to" shoot BP.
Considering that you have an undeniable vested interest in the continued use of relatively traditional ML technology, you're opinion can hardly be counted as unbiased. Additionally, since you can provide NO compelling reason for your opinion, I fail to see why anyone would be influenced by it at all. Your only evidence is 100 yard groups? Are you claiming that smokeless in the Savage can not produce those groups? If the Savage CAN produce those groups (it can, or better) then we are left with a list of reasons why you're STILL better off with smokeless.

FrontierGander
December 14, 2009, 03:07 PM
from what we've seen, savage should up their 129kpsi to something safer

Brian Pfleuger
December 14, 2009, 03:20 PM
No answer then?

Your best evidence is a disgruntled ex-employee who appears to be the only man in the world to inexplicably blow up two Savages all the while remaining completely unharmed while claiming to have been holding the guns when the forearms SHATTERED?

Very convincing.

When you said you shot BP because you simply prefer it I could buy it. Since then, your information and opinions are suspect AT BEST.

FrontierGander
December 14, 2009, 06:01 PM
Minus shots 1 and 2, the last 4 shots were pretty sweet for an open side CVA Hawken sidelock @ 113 yards :D
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm53/thepowerbeltforum/Powerbelt%20Round%20Balls/hawkenprb664-1.jpg
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm53/thepowerbeltforum/Powerbelt%20Round%20Balls/hawkenprb664001.jpg

Groups like that make traditional stuff so much fun. And i get it clean her later on. Maybe my inline tomorrow if the weather holds

darkgael
December 14, 2009, 07:19 PM
HUNDREDS of choices of propellant
Is that really so?
I understand that the Savage is approved for only certain smokeless propellants, four if I remember my reading, not just any smokeless rifle powder. Which ones are recommended by Savage?

Pete

Brian Pfleuger
December 14, 2009, 07:26 PM
I understand that the Savage is approved for only certain smokeless propellants, four if I remember my reading, not just any smokeless rifle powder. Which ones are recommended by Savage?

Savage shows several "recommended loads" but those are not the exclusive powders to be used. The powders that are NOT supposed to be used are "ball type (spherical), shotshell only (flake type) and Hodgdon Lil' Gun"

http://www.savagearms.com/images/pdf/manuals/MLII_loads.pdf

Savages recommended loads only list three smokeless powders. One of those is N110, but a lot of people use N120 which is not listed.

It's a lot easier to say what NOT to use than what TO use.

Zhe Wiz
December 14, 2009, 07:32 PM
No reason to shoot smokeless. Why do you shoot smokeless? Just so you dont have to clean it that night or maybe a few days later?

Gun A requires frequent cleaning to remove the corrosive powder and your groups are great.

Gun B also shoots great groups, but does NOT require frequent cleaning due to the non-corrosive nature of the powder.

Somehow you're arguing that Gun A is better? You are quite the spin doctor. Are you a politician? Be honest! Or am I wrong and you are conceding that smokeless (Gun B) is better as far as cleaning goes? I think you are, but are having a hard time doing it.

I have a wife, 3 kids and a full time job, I'll take a wild stab and say you probably are MUCH younger (20's maybe?), don't have a family, or at least not a large one. Therefore you are are happy spending countless hours cleaning your bp rifles. Well, good for you. I have better things to do...like SHOOT my rifle, preferably at deer. You keep cleaning, I'll spend what little free time I have away from my family shooting. Do I keep my guns clean? Not that it has any relevance to this discussion, but I absolutely do. Cleaning is not the purpose of the gun and shooting, it's a nasty side-effect of the fun part. And the non-corrosive nature of MODERN smokeless powder keeps me from having to clean every time I shoot. What a relief! And that's a bad thing? Ha! Spin Doctor.

The Savage smokeless is safe and you know it. There is NO unbiased evidence WHATSOEVER that indicates otherwise. Do you believe the Hummer is more "Green" than a Prius? I'm guessing you do, as apparently a picture or an article on the web is all it takes to convince you of almost anything, and there's one running around that tries to make that argument. I have a bridge to sell you...let me post the article...

So, thanks for using this forum as an opportunity to brag about your groups, but it does nothing to prove BP is better than smokeless. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Do you get that? I'm not sure you do, since you continue to avoid arguing FACTS and continue to argue...how great your groups are. Congratulations! We're all proud of you.

You seem to forget that we're not trying to convince you to sell all of your beloved BP rifles and run out and buy a Savage. What sense would that make? If I had a serious investment in BP and had several nice loads worked up, I wouldn't change either. Too expensive. What I'm trying to argue (and what the OP asked) is if you do not have a muzzleloader, or are looking to buy a new one, which one should you buy? Are the Savage Muzzleloaders any good? I would argue that there is no argument, which you have proven quite nicely. The Savage smokeless wins hands down. UNLESS it's too expensive, laws require you use smokeless, or your a purist. I think I already said that several posts ago. Thank you for helping to prove my argument. Even you, as adamant as you are have been unable to come up with any reason to go BP, other than the 3 reasons I posted.

I can tell you that having shot smokeless and having watched others shoot and CLEAN and CLEAN and CLEAN their BP rifles, I have zero interest in them and will never buy one unless the law requires that I do so. I am in NY, it could happen...

Oh, and I could blow up a BP rifle too if I tried. Wanna give me one of yours so I can prove it? I promise to take pix and post them on the web! :-)

Zhe Wiz

Fingers McGee
December 14, 2009, 07:49 PM
This has been an interesting thread and has about run it's course. Neither side has convinced. or will ever convince the other that their choice of powder/rifle/bullet/primer/sight/wiping stick, or buttplate is better than someone elses. They are different and are used by different folks for different reasons.

Get over it.

FM

Brian Pfleuger
December 14, 2009, 08:03 PM
Neither side has convinced. or will ever convince the other that their choice of powder/rifle/bullet/primer/sight/wiping stick, or buttplate is better than someone elses. They are different and are used by different folks for different reasons.

The point is not to convince FrontierGander or anyone else who is already shooting black powder.

The point is to ACCURATELY answer the OP, which was:

My brother is thinking about buying a Savage Muzzlerloader either a 10ML Or a 10ML-ll.
What's the good and bad on these Savage Muzzlerloaders?


What we are doing is countering bad information for some one who may not know better.
We speak with facts, not bias. We counter the bias with facts.
We have, in fact, pointed out the negatives of the Savage, which are few, and spent most of the thread countering inaccurate information.

I couldn't care less what gun ANYONE shoots or what they choose to shoot out of that gun. I do care that the OP gets accurate information.

darkgael
December 14, 2009, 11:12 PM
One of those is N110, but a lot of people use N120 which is not listed.
What were the others?
I'm not at all familiar with Vihtavouri powders. What form does N110 take and N120?
I'm just curious. Surely there must be some guidelines as to relative burn rate; we are essentially assembling a cartridge every time we load a Mler. Not every smokeless powder will do for round ball and the variety of weights available for bullets that the gun can shoot.
Pete

Zhe Wiz
December 15, 2009, 07:40 AM
Pete,

Here is a link of links to a variety of powders and loads which owners have successfully tested in the Savage. Includes some full bore loads too.

http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=loads&action=display&thread=586

Anyone who's truly curious about the Savage should visit Doug's Message Boards. Tons of good info from users. What they like, what they don't.

Zhe Wiz

darkgael
December 15, 2009, 08:07 AM
Thanks for the link.
Those are some serious loads. 65 grains of H4198 duplexed with 10 grains of the Vihtavouri N110.

Do we know why duplexing is necessary with a relatively fast rifle powder like 4198? I understand that shooters are using these loads but they do violate the normal caution about mixing smokeless propellants.
Now I am REALLY curious.

Just downloaded the 10ML ii manual. I see that the other powders listed, in addition, to N110 are the reliable smokeless replacements for BP cartridges - SR 4759 and XMR-5744.
I also see that Savage has "strictly prohibited" duplex loads.
hmmm.
Pete

Zhe Wiz
December 15, 2009, 09:43 AM
Do we know why duplexing is necessary with a relatively fast rifle powder like 4198?

I'm new to muzzleloading and have only owned the Savage for about a year now...actually I think it arrived the day before Christmas last year. I haven't had much time to experiment with loads. I use 58 grains of N120 behind a 300 grain Barnes Original bullet. I like the ballistics of that load, and have had good accuracy with it, though I still need to tweak it a bit. Bottom line, I don't know why duplexing is necessary with 4198 and others, or why people are doing it. I haven't researched.

I have little time to experiment, and duplexing seems like a time consuming project, and one you don't want to mess up. I'm a hunter, not a shooter, and the thought of trying to quickly pour a single charge down the barrel and shove a bullet in seems too slow, I can't imagine needing to pour TWO charges down the barrel when you're in a hurry! Seems unnecessary for the hunting I do. The load I use is pretty good, and there's lots of ballistic info posted at various sites about it.

I'll experiment with a lighter bullet with a single propellant before I start messing (if I EVER do) with duplex loads.

I also see that Savage has "strictly prohibited" duplex loads.

Savage is covering their backside. :-) They have several solid, if simplistic, loads listed that work and are well within safe boundaries. Whether it's engines or guns, we always have to push the boundaries. Still, the loads listed in the links above are pretty tame compared to what people are doing and NOT publishing, so I wouldn't be concerned safety-wise with any of those loads.

Jack

Pahoo
December 15, 2009, 10:41 AM
peetzakilla; Reply #43 +1

"We" constantly get off track and of little or no help to the OP's concerns. After awhile, he must just sit back and watch the tires spin. Kind of figured where this was going and as usual, not disappointed. ... :rolleyes:

" I never tell a man what to do with his money or his wife"

Be Safe !!!

Wild Bill Bucks
December 15, 2009, 12:39 PM
In answer to your question roger, the advantages to the Savage have been pretty much covered, and there really are No dis-advantages. I will suggest that your brother put his hands on one that he wants, and don't just order it from a dealer without actually feeling the gun first.
The reason for this, is the accu-trigger. If your hands are small, as mine are, you will find that the trigger must be pulled exactly straight, or the gun will not fire (This is a safety feature) and must be re-cocked. If your hands are small, it is very hard to get your finger into the trigger guard perfectly, because of the thickness of the stock. If you have larger hands, this is no problem. I had no problem with it at the range, where I had plenty of time to make sure I was in the trigger perfectly. It was a nightmare when I hunted with the rifle, because not every shot you get will give you plenty of time to get situated just right. After having the rifle for about a month, I remedied my problem by putting in a competition trigger from Sharp Shooters, and got rid of the accu-trigger. There isn't anything wrong with the accu-trigger other than my hands not being big enough to keep it firing dependable.
This is the ONLY thing I have found about the Savage that was a problem however, and I love everything else about the rifle. It is a little heavy, but so accurate, I will carry it with a dolly if I have to.

Don't believe all the crap you hear about the rifle blowing up. I know at least 10 guys here that own one, and none of them have had any problems with any kind of weakness in the rifle. Some of these guys shoot all kinds of different powder and loads. I personally stay with what savage recommends and will continue to do so.

darkgael
December 15, 2009, 07:46 PM
I must admit to being very tempted, though my taste in MLers is normally very traditional.
Whether it's engines or guns, we always have to push the boundaries.
No we don't. At least I don't...as long as a recommended load works I'm happy. I appreciate that Savage is covering their butt - they may have good reason to do so given the possibilities for disaster.
none of them have had any problems with any kind of weakness in the rifle. Some of these guys shoot all kinds of different powder and loads. I personally stay with what savage recommends and will continue to do so.
My first thought about those fellows not having any problems was "yet". I don't wish anyone ill but you only have to be wrong once and pressure issues are cumulative in many cases. I trust that Savage knows their gun and 4759 and 5744 are well-behaved.
Pete
I like that electric ignition MLer, too.

Zhe Wiz
December 15, 2009, 07:58 PM
Whether it's engines or guns, we always have to push the boundaries.
No we don't. At least I don't...as long as a recommended load works I'm happy. I appreciate that Savage is covering their butt - they may have good reason to do so given the possibilities for disaster.

Well, I didn't mean "we" as in "me and you". I meant "we" as in "the human race". Everywhere you look, that "we" are pushing the boundaries. I admit to having done it with engines, but I don't do it with guns either.

Zhe Wiz

mwmjones
December 28, 2009, 05:52 PM
I wish Colorado would let us use smokeless Powder in our Savage MLII

FrontierGander
December 28, 2009, 06:08 PM
you can. during rifle season

mwmjones
December 28, 2009, 06:34 PM
no it is in the state regs ONLY black powder or substitutes and ONLY loose

FrontierGander
December 28, 2009, 06:54 PM
yeah but during rifle season, your savage with smokeless and sabots and scopes are legal. Just cant use smokeless during muzzleloading season.

mwmjones
December 28, 2009, 07:20 PM
yes you are correct but not in Muzzleloading season