PDA

View Full Version : Black Powder Pistol in New Jersey???


Joat
December 3, 2009, 05:27 PM
Good afternoon folks.

I have a BP pistol for sale and a perspective buyer that lives in New Jersey. I am unfamiliar with NJ law as I live in a free state and am curious, Is it even legal to ship a BP pistol to Jersey?

Tried to call the state police and due to time zones could not find anyone to answer questions. Did a search on-line and got a headache over the NJ laws.

So simply put:
Can I (a private party, not an FFL) ship a black powder revolver to a buyer in New Jersey?

Joat

arcticap
December 3, 2009, 05:56 PM
For New Jersey residents, the transfer should go through an FFL.
But nothing would prevent that New Jersey resident from traveling and purchasing a cap & ball at any retail establishment in another state.

simonkenton
December 3, 2009, 06:59 PM
I bet it does require an FFL, those Big Brother geniuses in The Garden State have actually declared the bb gun to be a firearm.
I am not kidding.

mykeal
December 3, 2009, 09:07 PM
Keeping in mind that internet lawyers are worth exactly what you pay for their advice:

New Jersey has no authority over your actions committed in another state as a resident of that other state. Furthermore, federal law does not prohibit the transfer of an antique gun or replica of an antique gun without the use of a licensee (FFL). Therefore, you may sell and ship the gun to a resident of New Jersey at his residence in New Jersey.

Unfortunately for him, New Jersey won't allow him to receive it directly from you; they require the transfer be done with an FFL in New Jersey. That New Jersey FFL may require you send it to him through an FFL in your state; there's no legal reason for that, but some FFL's simply won't do business with individuals in another state as a matter of policy.

My fee for this advice is $0.00, payable by personal check, cash, postal money order or cash equivalent amounts of black powder, green cheese or prop wash. I do not accept PayPal or credit cards.

arcticap
December 3, 2009, 09:41 PM
I know that the large ammo retailer Ammoman that's located in New Jersey won't ship ammo within New Jersey because the FOID card that's required to purchase it needs to be presented in person.
Many years ago I visited Navy Arms in New Jersey as an out of state resident wanting to buy a muzzle loading rifle from them in person and they told me that it could only be shipped to me through the U.S. Mail because of New Jersey state law prohibiting the transfer. Because I persisted the salesman eventually let me take it out the back door of the warehouse telling me that if I was stopped to say that I was just passing through the state with it, and not to admit that I had just purchase it there.
The last I heard Navy Arms moved to West Virginia.
I guess the question is whether New Jersey could charge an out state resident for shipping a C&B pistol to a New Jersey resident through the mail. If an arrest warrant were issued, then the seller may need to stay out of New Jersey to avoid facing the charges. And if a warrant was pending in a state, then what does that do to a firearm owner's otherwise clean record when a background check is done?

mykeal
December 4, 2009, 07:47 AM
New Jersey could certainly issue such a warrant. I have no idea whether one's residence state would honor such a warrant and arrest you if it came up during a record check, say during a traffic stop. As to a 'clean record', the warrant would show but it's an allegation, not a conviction. I believe the laws on possession and purchase are based on convictions, not accusations or allegations.

madcratebuilder
December 4, 2009, 09:03 AM
This may be your chance to appear before the Supreme Court.:) Personally I would use a FFL to ship a C&B to NJ.

tpelle
December 4, 2009, 09:53 AM
I have always maintained that the only reason that anyone chooses to actually LIVE in New Jersey is that they have never been anywhere else!

arcticap
December 4, 2009, 12:32 PM
I believe the laws on possession and purchase are based on convictions, not accusations or allegations.

Here's the list:


Are there certain persons who cannot legally receive or possess firearms?
Yes, a person who –

(1) Has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year;

(2) Is a fugitive from justice;

(3) Is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance;

(4) Has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to a mental institution;

(5) Is an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States or an alien admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa;

(6) Has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;

(7) Having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his or her citizenship;

(8) Is subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner; or

(9) Has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence cannot lawfully receive, possess, ship, or transport a firearm.

A person who is under indictment or information for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year cannot lawfully receive a firearm. Such person may continue to lawfully possess firearms obtained prior to the indictment or information.
[18 U.S.C. 922(g) and (n), 27 CFR 178.32(a) and (b)]

http://www.harrislawoffice.com/content/areas_of_practice/tennessee_firearms/federal__purchase_and_sale.htm

Doc Hoy
December 4, 2009, 01:41 PM
I don't know the legalese but is it not pertinent to say that discussion of firearms in the context of JOAT's question misses the point given the status of black powder pistols under federal law? JOAT's question does not address "firearms" as defined under federal law and indeed it does not even address federal law.

The real question is, "Does the state of New Jersey interpose any restriction on the shipment of black powder weapons to persons in the state of New Jersey above those imposed by the federal government?" Maybe I missed it, but I have not seen an answer to that specific question. (And I don't have an answer either.)

As regards this particular sale I think I would make it a condition of the sale that the receiving party (the person who lives in New Jersey or any other state for that matter) be responsible for finding that out before he bids on the pistol. I do acknowledge that this could place the seller in a weak position (as Madcratebuilder said) but as Mykeal said there would need to be an awful lot of interstate cooperation in order to make a charge stick. (Sorry, Mykeal, if I am misinterpretting your post.)

That is of course unless the seller is making a business of such sales in which case it would be prudent for that person to be familiar with all the state restrictions.

arcticap
December 4, 2009, 01:58 PM
I guess the question is whether New Jersey could charge an out state resident for shipping a C&B pistol to a New Jersey resident through the mail. If an arrest warrant were issued, then the seller may need to stay out of New Jersey to avoid facing the charges. And if a warrant was pending in a state, then what does that do to a firearm owner's otherwise clean record when a background check is done?

I was asking whether breaking a "hypothetical" state law regarding the mailing of a C&B pistol to a New Jersey resident could lead to a warrant being issued, and also then if the impact on a person's background check with regard to the routine purchase of firearms by him could potentially occur. Then the Federal firearms eligibility restrictions could become relevant. AFAIK, New Jersey has an FOID card requirement for state residents to buy.
The Attorney General of such a state could chose to make a test case out of it. You should see what the AG has prosecuted people for in Massachussetts under his own rulings that were subsequently backed by their state courts. I'm talking about having a few rounds of ammo in a motor vehicle, and a non-FOID holder cannot buy Pyrodex there. Not expressed under State Statute but by the AG's own interpretative ruling by fiat. There may be exceptions for out of state hunters to be able to buy some ammo, but you can see what I mean.
Now those reg's might not be universally enforced, but as I said there can always be new examples and precedents that are yet waiting to be made.
That's the reason why companies won't ship ammo and such to some of these states.

Springfield Kid
December 4, 2009, 02:18 PM
I wouldn`t mind liveing in NJ
As long as the rest of the country was slid off into the ocean . :D

Joat
December 4, 2009, 02:25 PM
Thanks guys. I decided its not worth the headache for a $125.00 Armi San Marcos repro.
I've e-mailed the buyer and told him that I'm going to pass on his offer. What a joke of a state legal system!

Joat

valkabit6
December 7, 2009, 12:42 AM
I live in NJ and you need a permit to buy a handgun even if it's only a airgun. Each handgun purchased in NJ requires a separate handgun permit, it usually takes between 2-4 months for the permit to be approved.

tpelle
December 7, 2009, 12:42 PM
I live in Kentucky (a free state, of course) but I have spent a lot of time in New Jersey for work. One of the guys that I worked with up there had visited one of the southern states, and when he found out that I was a shooter, he remarked that he was amazed that you could actually buy BB guns at Wal-Mart down there!

I told him that he should seriously consider moving (And when I told him what my annual property tax bill was, I think he was seriously entertaining the idea!).