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View Full Version : Can you mix powder


grubbylabs
November 27, 2009, 08:13 PM
I have a few questions about Powder, one can you mix 3F and 2F and second can you mix Hogdon 777 with real black powder? I have 3F real Black Powder and just bought some 2F 777. Can't believe I paid 27.00 for a pound of it, I am on vacation her in Utah. AT home in Pocky Idaho it is 16.00 a pound.

mykeal
November 27, 2009, 09:16 PM
Yes, you can mix them. But, why?

Pahoo
November 27, 2009, 09:27 PM
Yes, you can mix them. But, why?
Exactly ??? ... :confused:

Be Safe !!!

B.L.E.
November 27, 2009, 09:34 PM
Sure. when you buy "3f" black powder, you get everything that was too big to be 4f to everything that was too small to be 2f, in other words, you are burning a mixture anyway.
Lots of folks use a small priming booster of black powder to help get the harder to ignite black powder substitutes to go off, especially in flintlocks.

grubbylabs
November 27, 2009, 10:22 PM
Just curios I have the two powder containers in the same box and wanted to know just how careful I needed to be about them mixing.

grubbylabs
November 27, 2009, 11:30 PM
So does the ratio matter could I mix it however I wanted to if I did? or can you only use a small portion of one to the other? I am not really looking to mix it but just want to know, curios is all.

long rider
November 27, 2009, 11:46 PM
I would not mix 777 with real black, read the label
on the 777 ?????????:rolleyes:

long rider
November 28, 2009, 12:04 AM
I just checked a old loading data for T7, and hodgdon
says you can use 5 grns of real blk as a starter for
flintlocks but never mix powders together, but i do mix
3f and 4f real blk works good in cap and ball revolvers.

shortwave
November 28, 2009, 04:42 AM
Unlike bp substitutes such as Pyrodex or American Pioneer, T7 is not a one to one comparison with ffg bp. T7 is hotter than ffg black powder. I wouldn`t take say a half container of ffg bp and mix with half container of T7. In volume amounts, since fffg is smaller(more grns. per set measurement) I don`t know how much hotter(if any) T7 would be than fffg. One thing for sure is if you mixed fffg and T7 in the same jug the fffg would settle to the bottom as its finer. I`m in the "but why" camp.:confused:

mykeal
November 28, 2009, 06:51 AM
So does the ratio matter could I mix it however I wanted to if I did? or can you only use a small portion of one to the other?
The single most important thing to remember when shooting black powder is to be consistent. That is, once you've determined what load works best for your particular gun, ALWAYS load the same materials the same way each time.

Now, applying that to your question: yes, the ratio matters. Changing the ratio will change the maximum pressure reached and the amount of time it takes to reach that maximum, which in turn will affect the velocity, energy and flight path characteristics of the projectile. In short, everything having to do with accuracy. How much it changes depends on how much the ratio changed.

Is one ratio "more accurate" than the other? Perhaps, but not necessarily. It's just different, and once you've determined how to shoot the gun with one "ratio", changing that ratio will affect (maybe a little and maybe a lot) the results and you won't be hitting where you're aiming.

horseman308
November 28, 2009, 07:19 AM
I know it can be done, as others here have indicated. However, I have never found any reason to mix powders. The only reason I can think of is if you have absolutely no way of buying real black powder, but you still have some on hand and need to use it to ignite synthetic stuff. But you can always mail order it, usually cheaper as long as you get it in bulk. So, I really can't think of any reason why you would ever need to. But then of course, how often do we do this stuff because we need to? :D

grubbylabs
November 28, 2009, 10:24 AM
Thanks for all the reply's, I don't think I am going to mix them, I was just standing there holding both cans and wondering what if? But like many of you said why would you? I have the 3f because the shop that sold the gun said to use 3f my brother in law uses 3f, both say 100-120grns of 3f. CVA says no more than 80grns though so I thought I would try the 2f and see how it works since CVA says I can use up to 100grns of 2f. Since I am new to all this I still have tons of questions. I did not realize how different the 3f and 2f would be just having a few granules in my hand, did not realize there would be such a noticeable difference.

shortwave
November 28, 2009, 10:53 AM
grubbylabs, mykeal explained it better then I did. You have to have consistency when bp shooting. When you find the load your CVA likes, shoot that load. Same amount of powder,boolit ,ramrod pressure when seating boolit and swabbing between shots. Consistency is everything. Also, again remember when shooting loose T7 reduce your powder charge by 15% of what you would normally shoot of bp. example: if shooting 100grns. bp shoot 85grns T7.

grubbylabs
November 28, 2009, 11:48 AM
I have not even found a load I like I am having a hard time getting out to 100 yards with the 3f and I am at 100grns with it so I am thinking it would be a good thing to back of the 3f and go with a 2f powder.

shortwave
November 28, 2009, 05:28 PM
Where are you grouping at 50 yds.? Best to start there and work out to 100yds. Also what load(powder amount and boolit) are you using?

Tom2
November 28, 2009, 06:03 PM
A technical issue-BP is considered an explosive and regulated as such, I think the substitutes might be more like considered flammable solids, as smokeless powder is. If you mix BP into your sub powder, then I am pretty sure it will be considered an explosive then, even if it is not pure. That might affect transportation and things? Also you are really playing home chemist mixing BP and subs fully together. No telling what the effects of long term storage of the mixture might be. Summation, sounds like risky monkey business, to me.

grubbylabs
November 28, 2009, 08:36 PM
I have gone from 50 grns to 100 and it groups ok at 50 but even if I max out my sight adjustment it does not bring my point of impact up far enough to hit center.

And no I am not playing home chemist, I am just curios about the stuff is all.

shortwave
November 29, 2009, 07:40 AM
What boolit/weight are you shooting? What caliber Cva? How many grns. of powder are you grouping best at 50yds? You`re zero`ed at 50 yds getting a good tight group/dead bullseye? Where do you hit at 75 or 100 yds? To eliminate the slight possibility of bad/weak fffg powder, try about 70 grns 777 at 50,75 and 100yds. Make sure you`ve got a big enough piece of cardboard behind your 75 and 100yd targets to show where your hitting. If your grouping good but low at 75-100yds and can`t adjust your rear sight low enough, it may be possible your rear sight or barrel mounting may be defective from the factory. It`s rare but happens, ask me how I know!

B.L.E.
November 29, 2009, 11:22 AM
If your grouping good but low at 75-100yds and can`t adjust your rear sight low enough, it may be possible your rear sight or barrel mounting may be defective from the factory.

I think you got it backwards, it should be if you can't adjust your rear sight high enough.

You can also file down the front sight, lowering the front sight raises the group.

shortwave
November 29, 2009, 12:07 PM
I think you got it backwards, it should be if you can`t adjust your rear sight high enough. :o, Your absolutely correct B.L.E. Thats what happens when I try to start thinking to early in the morning. Thanks. You can also file down the front sight, lowering the front sight raises the group Or cut and place shim stock under rear sight.

grubbylabs
November 30, 2009, 01:07 AM
I have been slowly filing down the front sight. It does group well at 50 or 100 it just runs out of adjustment to hit the center of the target at 100, 50 grns of 3f was doing great at 50yards but even up to 100 grns does not get me high enough to hit center at 100. I have been using a 220 grn round ball and 3f black powder. I just got some 2f triple 7 from hogdon I played with it a little on saturday but I only had about 25 yrds to shoot in. I did notice that it was a little slower to take off though.

shortwave
November 30, 2009, 04:56 AM
Did you get my P.M.??? What model CVA are you shooting? Whats the ball size(i.e..490 or .495)? What patching material are you useing? What`s the twist on the barrel? Did you use a large cardboard target backer so you can see all shots at 100yds.? How many inchs apart were they? If your shooting patched roundball in a 1x28 twist barrel, put the file down, most likely your not shooting any kind of groups at 100yds. Get some sabots and try them. The Hornady SST`s 250grn. sabots are about $14. Your front sight will be more.

grubbylabs
November 30, 2009, 12:25 PM
Shortwave,

I am shooting a trade rifle and I am not sure of how many twists are in the barrel, but it is a .54 and I am shooting a .530 ball and a .015 patch.

shortwave
November 30, 2009, 02:16 PM
What kind of primer are you using? Not quite sure what you mean by 'trade rifle'. To find out your rate of twist put a cleaning jag with patch on your ramrod. Insert ramrod, mark a line on ramrod, slowly pull ramrod out paying attention to line and to how many revolutions ramrod makes. A 1x28 twist is 1 twist in 28 inchs,1x48 is 1 twist in 48 inchs etc.

grubbylabs
November 30, 2009, 05:32 PM
"trade rifle" is what it is called kinda like a Hawkins only it is a trade rifle, It has a 1x48 twist from what I could find from a quick internet search.

From what I can find on the internet it was a popular rifle for tradesmen and Indians. Basically born out of the fur trade. I was using CCI's now I am using Vorderlader-Zundhutchen. I was told they are hotter.

shortwave
November 30, 2009, 07:18 PM
If your sighted 50yds and grouping very well also grouping well at 100yds but low. How low are you grouping at 100yds.?

shortwave
November 30, 2009, 07:51 PM
Its looking like your headed back to filing the front sight or shimming the rear. Whats the bore look like especially down at the breech? Have you tried any .535 balls with .010 lubed patchs? How tight is the .530 with lubed .015 patch? Just want to rule out to much blow by.

grubbylabs
November 30, 2009, 09:47 PM
If I don't run a patch through after every shot it is very tight running the ball down. Other wise it is fairly easy to run down, it is snug but some what easy.

shortwave
December 1, 2009, 05:08 AM
Again, I know your groups are low at 100yds. How tight are the groups and how low?

grubbylabs
December 1, 2009, 12:42 PM
2-3 inch groups and about 10-12 inches low

arcticap
December 1, 2009, 01:20 PM
If it's only 1 foot low then I would just use Kentucky windage and aim high when shooting at 100 yards, but that's just me.
The last time I adjusted rifle sights to shoot at 100 yards it greatly affected the point of impact at 50 yards which is the distance that I do most of my shooting.
So sight adjustment is often simply one of those choices of personal preference that the shooter decides to make that's mostly based on the distance that one plans to shoot from the most.
A 50 yard target is basically just a 100 yard target that's reduced in size, and many rifles will shoot more accurately and using less powder at 50 yards. And believe it or not, some folks have a preference for shooting at 25 yards with even smaller targets.
It's all good!
But where to aim at the targets for each distance is one of the main challenges. :)

shortwave
December 1, 2009, 02:34 PM
+1 on what Articap said. If your going to hunt with this rifle and most your shots are 40-75 yds., I wouldn`t zero at 100. I`d zero at 50 and shoot enough to know where I had to aim at a deer at 100. You keep filing on that front sight and you may not be able to zero at 50:eek:. Then you gotta add that bead of weld on the front sight. Thats the only problem with filing front sight verse`s shimming rear sight. By the way, 2-3" groups at 100yds. with open sights ain`t bad;).

grubbylabs
December 1, 2009, 03:22 PM
Thats at 50, 100 does alright but not that well.

shortwave
December 2, 2009, 04:26 AM
According to previous post`s I thought you were zero`ed and grouping good at 50yds:confused:. My advice would be the same as Arctic`s, zero at 50 and hold over for 100.