View Full Version : Another silly question on "used" BP pistols
November 21, 2009, 06:52 PM
I have picked up several from auction sites, and have yet to be displeased with one. One new one, the '51 Navy in 36 from Cabela's when we were traveling in Nebraska, just had to go in their original store. ANYWAY, all these sellers, most anyway, always advertise as never fired, or fired only once, new in box, nearly new. Some will say rest of kit is gone, only pistol for sale. What in the sam hill do these people buy the dang thing for. These repros don't go up in value that much to hold for profit. I buy them to shoot and have fun. I know most on here do too, but who out there is buying them to put back up for sale on the auction houses. Surely they don't buy them for the free flask and various little pieces in the kits, then dump the pistol.
November 21, 2009, 07:32 PM
It's usually a case of someone buying the C&B or getting one for a present with the intention of shooting it in competition, or for general plinking; without having a complete understanding of what it takes to use one on a regular basis. They find out that there is more to shooting one than just loading a cartridge and blasting away; so, they decide that it is more trouble than they are willing to go through just to make some noise and plink at cans, or use them in CAS competition
Then there are the collectors that amass a number of C&Bs for the sheer joy of collecting. C&Bs from these collections end up on the auction sites or classifieds when the owner decides to downsize, collect something else, needs the money, or dies.
I've bought most of my C&Bs from individuals and dealers that reflect all of these reasons. The best deals have been from people that didn't realize what it took to shoot C&Bs, and were selling just to get rid of them.
November 21, 2009, 07:48 PM
I am of the opinion (and have said as much) that many pistols are bought with only a casual intention of firing them. They represent a visual treasure that, as you say, is difficult to explain. Very few see them who do not fall in love with them intantly. I think this is why the brass frame pistols seem to be so much more numerous in the hands of folks do don't shoot them much or not at all. In the words of Bos'n Frank Street, USN, Ret., "They shine like a ruby in a goats a_ _.
I personally own more pistols than I could ever shoot, and I own some which I have made the conscious decision never to shoot. I think there are several others on the forum who are in the same situation. Yet I haunt the hauls of Gunbroker and frequent the pointless (at least to a black powder shooter) gunshows looking for something I just can't pass up. When I bought my fifth 1960 Army, I completely forgot that I already had four others. All good condition, good shooters, each this its own story. Why did I buy number 5? Like Everest, I bought it because it was there.
These pistols seem to have a magnetism. Colt or its cousins or the wide family of Remington style pistols, it doesn't matter. I was discussing the purchase of my 15th revolver with my wife. Her response was to inquire how many pistols I need. I told her it has nothing to do with need. She seemed to understand. She is afraid of guns but I caught her looking at an 1861 Colt the other day almost like a person would read a book. These pistols are magic.
Go into Cabela's or Bass Pro Shop and you see lookers crowded around the handgun counter. The are handling the semi autos and other modern handguns. But just ask the sales person to drag out a Colt or Remington and watch the reaction. Draw the hammer back and everyone looks over. It is as though the pistol was designed to announce its presence before it is fired. Like the sound of the action is the sentence and the discharge of the pistol is the exclamation point at the end of that sentence. That pistol, like a faithful dog would tear its heart out just to serve its master. Click..click..click.click..Bang!
Nothing about these pistols is abrupt, or offensive. Nothing seems out of place. Show me a million photos of 1851 Colts, and when I see the million and first photo, I will still say.., "Dang..That is a pretty pistol."
November 21, 2009, 08:50 PM
ONe that I have never seen used and fired is a second gen. Colt repro C&B receiver. They are always in their original box, perfect, and priced pretty high. Would you not love to find a great deal on a nice unfired Navy second gen? Well I had one once, it was like 150$. But the catch was, it was fully polished, in the white, and no markings of any sort at all. Was intended to be sent out for engraving or limited edition or something I was told. Sat around for years here and I finally sold it off. I just did not have the jack to send it out to be fancy engraved and finished. Some guy with big bucks probably did that. Was in a plain white box.
November 21, 2009, 11:56 PM
Doc hoy........well said
November 22, 2009, 12:31 AM
Doc hoy........well said
Tom2 - there are some of us that shoot 2nd Gens - I have a pair of 1851 Navies and a pair of 1861 Navies that have seen thousands of rounds go through them................of course, I also have a bunch of 2nd Gens that have barely seen the light of day; muchless powder, cap & ball.
November 22, 2009, 01:37 AM
I had to go get cultured tonight. Wife took me to the local symphony. Now let me say this, the symphony stuff just don't melt my butter, but I have to also say I was in awe of the passion and talent on that stage. It was "request" night tonight, and the ending piece was the 1812 Overture with all the sparklers and bangs. We support it here financially, would hate to lose it, just don't have that much time to fit events between planting, fertilizing, spraying, harvesting, and fixing chit. I don't go to tractor pulls or monster truck races, don't do it for me either. If I have free time, I would rather be puttering in the garden or shooting turtles, snakes, or beer cans down at the pond. Now,ain't that a match.
Only got the disease the last few years. Started mainly as a way to conserve my stash of smokeless ammo. Bought a boatload of all the surplus ammo before it started drying up and skyrocketig in price. Just worked out that way. BP shooting can be nearly as expensive as some smokeless rounds, but the fact that half the fun is in loading and readying the piece, I shoot far less rounds and have just as much fun. I mould all my own RB and conicals now. Had my first chainfire recently, just one adjacent cylinder on an 1860 Army 44 I just got. Started using wander wads, but those dang things are almost 10 cents a piece. A piece of felt, holy cow.
BTW, can ya tell I'm a mizer, another name for cheapskate. Safety conscious, but money conscious too. I may try the Cream of wheat filler, but my cylinders are already pretty full, not much room in there for filler.
Didn't get much shooting in today. Rifle group was there and using a 10 minute- 10 round timed shoot on M-1 Garand open sight 100 yards targets. Rules are while range is safe, firearms must be laid on table. By the time range was hot again, and they went to shooting, it took me nearly the whole time to load and empty one pistol one time, then range safe again. Oh well. Still had fun and we solved some world political issues again while there.
Dunno if wife would let me continue to live with her Doc, if I had 15 BP pistols, but I did bring the 5 in just one or two at a time today to clean in the utility room basin. She is nearly like most of the public and everything is an AK-47. Thankfully she can't tell a '51 from a '60 or a '58, much less the caliber.
Thanks for all the help on here guys. It's a great habit.
November 22, 2009, 06:27 AM
Starbuck and Fingers,
Got carried away.
You can make your own wads by soaking some felt (Has to be very high wool content) in bore lube and then punching them out with a punch that you can get for about six bucks a set from Harbor Freight. http://search.harborfreight.com/cpisearch/web/search.do?keyword=punch Top of page on left or second from top on left.
I think some on the forum will tell you to use cornmeal rather than cream of wheat. I haven't got that far yet.
November 22, 2009, 07:53 AM
Get your felt here: http://www.durofelt.com/ Click on Felt Material in left hand column.
Small company run by a woman, great product at very reasonable price. Very popular with bp crowd over at The Muzzleloading Forum, and they're not the easiest people to please.
If your chambers are already pretty full, you don't need Cream of Wheat.
November 22, 2009, 09:18 AM
I just read "cream of wheat" for the second time.
Am I wrong in thinking that corn meal is the desired filler?
November 22, 2009, 12:36 PM
I prefer the term Thrifty. The Scotsman in me refuses to pay the exhorbitant prices that retailers want for lubed wads; so I go here http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,249.html to get mine. They're $.02 each for dry wads and $.03 each for lubed wads. It saves me the trouble of punching out my own - I've gotten lazy since I retired.
I've got 15 '51 Navies, as well as numerous other models, and SWMBO still lets me in the house. She keeps asking how many I have & I just answer 'not as many as I want'.
While I don't generally advocate abusing foodstuffs; and don't use filler very much; Cream of Wheat is my preferred filler. I also use it for C&B blanks. It compresses and compacts better in the cylinder than corn meal. I save the corn meal for muffins & such.
November 22, 2009, 01:13 PM
I recently received my Gunbroker purchase, Baby Dragoon "looks new and unfired". The gun is so worn out the cylinder won't lock, $220.00 paper weight. E-mails go unanswered, phone call is next. I payed with a MO so it looks like this is the biggest burn i've gotten off of Gunbroker. :mad:
November 22, 2009, 02:05 PM
That is a dag gone shame.
It'd be nice to know who the seller is.
Maybe it is not appropriate to ask.
November 22, 2009, 02:39 PM
OK,, guys, it was late last night, slip of the tongue. I knew it was one of those ground grain items. Corn meal looks about like cream of wheat, just a different grain. OH well.
I was just wanting something under the ball for better seal against chainfires. LIke I said, had my first one the other day. Not a real biggie, I thought it was a delay fire between the cap and powder, when I realized I just shot 5 times and all cylinders were empty. 30 grain in a 36 leaves no room for even a wad, much less corn meal.
Wife's biggest complaint on the cleaning of BP is the "black chit" everywhere. I'm not to tide sometimes in her perfect little kitchen.
No specials at Cabela's right now on any short barell pistol. I'll keep my eyes peeled.
Thanks again all,
November 22, 2009, 03:17 PM
....It is far more fattening than cornmeal and not nearly as high in fiber. So the little critters that come by after a day of shooting get real fat on the ranges where people use cream of wheat as filler. They get to grazing on that mixture of cream of wheat and black powder. Then the PETA folks show up with another reason to demonstrate at the range. They hate to see those gophers getting unhealthy and shooting off their mouth about it.
We all know that it is far better to let the gophers go to the gopher retirement home.
I checked with PETA and this is all absolute fact.
No it ain't.
November 23, 2009, 01:19 AM
Doc I don't feel the need for fillers myself so therefore I must have tried a few. This one Enyaw turned me on to and did give me better results than cereals.
Here's the link to Puff-Lon... http://www.pufflon.com/
November 23, 2009, 11:37 AM
I recently received my Gunbroker purchase, Baby Dragoon "looks new and unfired". The gun is so worn out the cylinder won't lock, $220.00 paper weight. E-mails go unanswered, phone call is next. I payed with a MO so it looks like this is the biggest burn i've gotten off of Gunbroker.
That is unfortunate. If the seller refuses to address you I would leave appropriate feedback so others are warned.
One thing to keep in mind, many of the replica revolvers well need work even when NIB. Think of them as a kit gun that is 95% finished. Post a description of the problem with pic's and I'm sure the members here can help.
November 23, 2009, 04:12 PM
Sabot, That may be as simple as a new trigger/bolt spring. They break with some regularity.
November 23, 2009, 04:55 PM
I just started accumulating ingredients a couple weeks ago. Luckily I had this site for information. I was able to cut my own patches from felt weather stripping, beeswax and crisco. Only had to buy a .457 mold as I have plenty of lead.
I certainly can see that a few extra cylinders would help out.
Unfortunately actually shooting the thing will have to wait.
November 23, 2009, 05:11 PM
Be careful using that weather stipping. I looked and looked for weather stripping that was wool rather than polyester and I could not find any. The package will tell you what it is made of. If it is polyester, you might wind up with a nasty deposit in the bore.
Others in the group care to wade in here? Has anyone had any luck finding recently manufactured weather stripping that is actually wool?
November 23, 2009, 07:24 PM
I don't get it.
Why look for antique weatherstripping when you could just buy sheets of wool felt at a very reasonable price from Durofelt?
November 23, 2009, 07:46 PM
Precut wool felt wads can be gotten from Buffalo Arms. Lubed $.03 each in bags of 500 & dry $.02 each in bags of 1000. That for .36 and .44 cal sizes. Save a lot of wear and tear on the arm.
November 23, 2009, 08:17 PM
Thanks Smokin Gun for the pufflon info. Awhile back I was at the range and someone near me was shooting one of those fancy benchrest rifles with sub MOA. We got to talking and he was telling me that he uses puffon as filler in all his ammo and it has improved the groups in all his guns. I didn't get his name, but wrote down the puffon and looked online and only found puffins!!! I got a great deal on GB looking through b/p revolvers; someone was selling a stainless 44 with fuzzy pics. I got it for $200 including shipping. It was an unfired ROA. Even with the fuzzy pic's, I knew what it was and waited to bid on the last minute. The seller said that it was his dad's and he knew nothing about it. He could have got $200 from a pawn shop, but he made a long time ROA admirer very happy.
November 23, 2009, 09:40 PM
Thanks for the warning Doc. The key word is recent. The weather stripping I'm using is from many years ago. I had read the sticky about the danger of synthetic fibers, so I lite a sample and it smolders but doesn't melt.
The reason I don't buy pre-made is because I have a wealth of junk around the house which I might as well use for something.
November 23, 2009, 10:36 PM
A brief warning about buying a kit gun that someone has tried to put together. Don't.
November 23, 2009, 11:34 PM
I just wanted to show everyone the auction I was talking about.
The original auction I won was given to someone else who had a late payment and I was allowed to choose this one instead. In the auction it says "Gun looks new and unfired." It is in very good condition on the outside, on the inside the teeth on the cylinder are all chewed up, and at the bottom of the hammer is something I think would act like a cam that is almost completely worn off. This gun has seen a lot of use. I called the seller today and he still insisted that the gun was unfired and proceeded to tell me how much experience he had buying and selling hundreds of guns. When I told him that I had taken the gun apart to look inside, he screamed "I DIDN'T TELL YOU TO TAKE IT APART", and then threatened to not give me a refund if the gun came back to him in non-working condition. Either this guy isn't too smart or he's very dishonest because it isn't very hard to tell that the gun was well used even without taking it apart. The gun will be on it's way back to the seller tomorrow, we'll see how honest this person is.
November 23, 2009, 11:45 PM
and one more thing
this expert at buying and selling guns said it was .28 caliber
isn't it a .31
November 24, 2009, 06:38 AM
The seller has 312 feedbacks with an A+ rating. It is difficult to believe that:
1. He could not tell that the pistol was not in the condition he described
2. That he would describe the condition of a pistol when he really did not know the condition.
3. That he would have a problem with the inspection of the pistol which has become pretty much accepted.
4. That your inspection was pretty much a simple field strip (I am ASSUMING here) which is part of every day operation of the pistol and can be done without harming the pistol.
In the seller's defense, in the first 30 feedbacks, I found no other BP revolvers.
I have over 500 feedbacks on eBay with a 100% positive rating. I often sell stuff I know nothing about, but I always say so and it always goes cheap because I can not verify the condition.
"myankey" is a good name to treat with a healthier respect than other GBsellers I have dealt with.
November 24, 2009, 07:58 AM
I just took a look at the Gunbroker ad. This is EXACTLY the kind of ad I would avoid at all costs.
First, he specifies the item is to be sold "AS IS. No refunds or exchanges." This position is indefensible when dealing with used firearms. Any, and I mean ANY honest dealer will not only agree to an inspection period, he'll insist on it to protect himself.
The first rule about buying guns on the internet:
NEVER, EVER BUY A GUN UNSEEN WITHOUT A MINIMUM 3 DAY INSPECTION PERIOD WITH A MONEY BACK NO-QUESTIONS-ASKED GUARANTEE. NEVER.
Second, he states the gun looks (emphasis is mine) new and unfired. If you're buying the gun for appearance only, that's just fine. But if you want it to actually work, the word "looks" is a big red flag; the fact that it only looks good means, by default, that it doesn't work good.
Finally, the caliber is mis-stated. There's no excuse for that. I don't care how many guns you claim you've sold, if you don't know the caliber, you don't know what you're talking about. Doc, you may have sold things you didn't know anything about, but you admitted it up front. This guy not only didn't admit it, he still claims he's an expert.
The A+ rating and 312 positive feedbacks is the only plus in the ad. I have to wonder how he earned them given the obvious clues to his dishonesty in the ad.
There are plenty of reasons in this ad to stay away from this seller. In the end, myankee took advantage of Sabot and should take the gun back, but frankly I'm hard pressed to say Sabot wasn't warned.
November 24, 2009, 08:14 PM
I thought I was fairly safe with this seller who had an A+ rating and 312 positive feedbacks. Where it is specified the item is to be sold "AS IS. No refunds or exchanges", I didn't even see that until you brought it to my attention. Yes, I was warned, but I didn't see the flags. I guess this will just have to be an expensive learning experience. The gun is now on it's journey back to the seller, I probably won't get a refund either.
I thought if I shared this experience with everyone then the burn wouldn't hurt so bad. :(
November 24, 2009, 08:21 PM
Having a learning experience means you're alive and well. Many people would have that experience and learn nothing, so you're way ahead of them.
November 27, 2009, 05:37 AM
In all my buying and selling on the internet, I have learned to be wary of people who misspell common words repeatedly and make repeated errors in grammar. I am not trying to be an elitist and a misspelled word or mistake in grammar once in a while doesn't raise any flags with me but repeated instances does. Also I am wary of people posting feedback that make personal attacks on the seller or buyer. A few years back when I was selling used high end stereo equipment from the 60's & 70's, I could almost tell which buyers were problematic by their emails with questions on what I was selling. It wasn't 100% but it was maybe in the 90-95% range.The majority of the buyers were nice and easy to deal with but there was that certain percentage of problem buyers. The same thing holds true for sellers. If I don't feel comfortable with the seller, I just walk away. I sold over 3,000 items on Ebay in a period of 4 years. I am going to start selling off a lot of my personal equipment due to fact that my wife and I are going to move into a smaller house now that the kids are grown. It is going to be back to the Ebay grind.
November 29, 2009, 02:05 PM
I sent the gun back and the seller received it Saturday.
He kept my money and relisted the item.
Is there any recourse I can take?
November 29, 2009, 02:07 PM
If he kept your money and the item, you can do two things. First, file a complaint with Gunbroker.com. Second, contact the county prosecutor in the county where he lives and ask to file a complaint for fraud using the internet.
November 29, 2009, 10:16 PM
If he only received it back on Saturday then how do you know that he's keeping your money?
He needs to be given a reasonable amount of time to return the money.
Did he state in writing that he wouldn"t return your money?
I agree with mykeal that you should contact Gunbroker as soon as possible since they do offer fraud protection and can investigate and suspend his account if necessary.
The fact the he has relisted the returned item means that he received it back from you undamaged.
And many states have laws protecting the consumer when buying mail order products and which also gives buyers the right to return goods for a refund.
You should have taken pictures of the wear and damage that the gun had when you took it apart to prove that it wasn't in new condition. Then he can't dispute your claim about the condition of the gun.
Gunbroker gives you the right to return it for any reason anyway. Exhaust your avenues to complain through them first.
November 30, 2009, 12:12 AM
From the way this guy had talked to me on the phone, literally yelling at me, and his behavior of not responding to my e-mails, I thought he was going to burn me for sure. And when I saw the gun re-listed without hearing anything from him about a sending a refund I got suspicious.
I once had a supervisor who used to say... "The less you are told, the more you assume". Communication is seriously important in a business transaction.
I received a reply to an e-mail today, he said the check is in the mail. I guess I jumped the gun you could say. Hopefully it won't be another surprise.
November 30, 2009, 04:17 AM
I check pistols on Gunbroker about once every three days.
I generally have a list of pistols or parts I am watching. I stick to 1849, 51, 58, 60, 61, 62, & 63 & ROA.
My reaction to the pistols this guy has for sale is almost always that his starting prices are a little high. I have not bothered to check how his sales are going to see if others agree with me. But I frequently do not watch his pistols because of the high opening price. There is another guy who sells pistols he has taken apart, selling the parts for more than the value of the whole pistol. I am not talking about "Old Western Scrounger" (Val Forgett III). He keeps his opening prices low and allows the market to determine value. Ships pretty slow but packages well.
As a philosophical point, an "as-is" auction on a site like gunbroker is a tiny bit different from an "as-is" face to face transaction. It places a very high threshold on the seller to completely and accurately describe the condition, because that condition is the premise for the sale. If a buyer is agreeing to an as-is sale, then the item, as described must be essentially identical to the item, as received.
I have been selling and buying on eBay since 1996. I have a 100% positive feedback rating. I never describe anything as "as-is" because it is an open invitation for conflict. I simply cannot describe any item well enough that I could feel that I have done justice to the description. I always give a no-questions-asked guarantee. I have only been questioned one time. I returned the money and never got the item (A Zee scale railroad car) back. Its a chance you take.
The seller that Sabot is speaking of easily has enough experience to know that when he says a pistol "looks unfired" that includes the "look" of the bore and the chambers. He also knows that "Looks unfired" carries with it an unspoken assumption that buyer will expect that the pistol will also operate as though it were unfired. The ad may not say that, but both parties know it.
It was not just an inadvertent omission to fail to describe the pistol as not fully functional. It was a clever ploy verging on blatant dishonesty.
I, personally, would not do business this way.
November 30, 2009, 08:23 AM
Small world, I just bought a gun from the same guy.
He described it as unfired but the photo clearly shows the corrosion on it. I'm going to refinish anyway so I didn't care. He cold blued it right over the rust. I have it striped and mostly down to smooth steel. If I had bought this based on his description I would be very ****** off.
November 30, 2009, 09:33 AM
After I made my last post, I went to GB and put a bunch of his auctions on watch, just to satisfy my curiosity. He has a bunch of revolvers for sale. Most of them appear to be in less than average condition. Most of them seem to me to be priced higher than is warranted. (I am watching them to find out how many of them sell and that the price is for the sales.)
November 30, 2009, 09:23 PM
After he received the gun back from me it was immediately put up for auction. "Gun looks new and unfired" has been removed from the description and the price has been reduced from $199.00 to $175.00. I would assume the gun in the condition that I received it in was not repaired and is very dangerous, the cylinder bolt does not work and the cylinder does not line up with the barrel.
November 30, 2009, 11:28 PM
Be careful with the hyperbole: 'very dangerous'.
Failure to lock up in battery is not a 'very dangerous' condition, nor is failure of the bolt to lock the cylinder in place, in my opinion. However, if it were dangerous, and you sent the gun back with knowledge of that danger, you could be liable for damages if someone were injured.
December 1, 2009, 06:21 AM
We had a discussion about this very instance in my class last night. The class is PSYC305 but it has nothing to do with psychology. The discussion last night involved the application of ethics in conflict situations. All of the students are business majors.
Only one of the class members thought that the seller had done no wrong. That student also mentioned the legal ramifications of the situation as you did. But she was concerned about a slander charge by the seller, citing this forum.
December 1, 2009, 08:43 AM
The fact that a business major feels that intentional omission of pertinent facts regarding condition of the article for sale is "doing no wrong" leads one to question whether she has any concept of the word 'ethics'. There can be no question that the seller is aware of the deficiencies in condition; while I don't realistically expect him to say, "This gun is a POS", I do think a simple, "action needs work" is called for.
December 1, 2009, 10:00 AM
And the majority of the class agrees. In fact, their point was precisely as you have described. The seller committed sin of omission and very likely, it was deliberate. I will avoid him in the future for five reasons.
1. Misleading (and this is putting it kindly) ads.
2. Terrible attitude following the sale.
3. "As-is" refund policy
4. $20.00 shipping on a pistol which can be mailed priority for a little over a third that amount.
5. High (opinion) prices.
She was focusing on the technical accuracy of the ad. In every class I find at least one student who wants to over-lawyer things. And as you say, these business majors get only one class in law and one in ethics both of which are in the future for them.
This is why these students are just that, students.
As the class broke up, she left, saying (with her mouth) that the seller was technically correct and thus it was up to Sabot to choose to buy or not to buy. My sense though is that, given a similar situation she might arrive at a different conclusion. Her ego would not allow her to acknowledge that in the classroom. But this was a class in ethics, not in human nature.
As the professor of the class, I could call her attention to the nuances of the transaction that we have already discussed here. But I could not force her to take a different position.
I really had a good time doing that discussion. I hope that ALL of the students had an opportunity to learn something. We will never know.
December 1, 2009, 09:54 PM
Hey, guess what? I got my refund.
The seller returned $175.00 of the $199.00 price of the gun. He stole a lot less than I expected him to, it must have been a 12.5% restocking fee. Shipping both ways + restocking fee, what a value for almost 2 weeks of anger and frustration.
Doc - Explain to the wayward student that law is not the same as justice, and that some of us still have God in our lives guiding us with moral values.
Remember... If you ever get caught telling a whopper of lie, just say "I misspoke" - Hillary Clinton
December 1, 2009, 10:20 PM
I notice this seller still has an A+ rating with only one negative feedback, and none in the last 30 days. With two forum members having had unsatisfactory experiences I would have expected that to be changing rapidly.
You guys owe the buyers on Gunbroker.com the benefit of your experience. Leave some feedback, or don't ever complain about Gunbroker purchases.
His failure to refund your entire cost is completely unacceptable. Don't take this lying down.
December 1, 2009, 11:25 PM
I'll do just that... after the check clears.
He has 4 negative feedbacks, and if you read through some of the positive ones you still see complaints.
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