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View Full Version : Firing pin spring Ortgies Werk Erfurt 32 APC


fprefect
November 20, 2009, 09:01 AM
My father acquired this German "Ortgies" pistol in WWII being carried by a German officer and the only problem I encountered with it was that the firing pin did not strike the primer directly in the center causing a misfire about every 5 shots.

I was told in one of forums the problem was either dirt in the mechanism that allowed the firing pin to move when cocked and fired or possibly a weak firing pin spring.

To make a long story short I damaged (bent) the spring when replacing it and need a new or used firing pin spring. Are they still available or have I managed to destroy the pistol by not taking it to gunsmith in the first place? The only responses I have gotten from a couple of local gunsmiths is the "well maybe I could locate" one somewhere, blah, blah, blah, but I suppose I shouldn't be critical and I was the one who damaged the pistol to begin with. Any ideas as to where I might find one?

F. Prefect

jal5
November 20, 2009, 12:45 PM
have you tried the online sites: egunparts, brownells?

I have another contact, who deals in WWII German gun parts, Tom Heller, he might know where you can find the part. let me know.

Would love to see a picture of that gun too! I have acquired several WWII era guns but not one of those.
Joe

Crapulence
November 20, 2009, 01:17 PM
It looks like Numrich has what you need;

http://ww.e-gunparts.com/model.asp?idDept=186

James K
November 20, 2009, 03:57 PM
When you get a new spring, here is the proper way to install it.

With the slide off and held upside down, insert the firing pin, spring and spring guide. Push the guide in and down (toward the top of the slide), compressing the firing pin spring, until the rear of the firing pin spring guide snaps down into the notch in the inside top of the slide.

Make sure things stay that way while you put the slide on. With the slide on, retracting it will release the firing pin spring guide from the slide notch and the gun will work normally.

Jim

fprefect
November 21, 2009, 03:45 PM
Thanks for all the help. I wish I had waited before attempting to replace the spring without having done so with a pistol of this design in the past. As a result it's now residing with the gunsmith at my local range.

Jim, I wish I had the darn thing in front of me now as I can't remember seeing any notch like you are describing but when one doesn't know they're looking for to begin with, it usually gets overlooked and I'm sure that's what happened in this case.

This gun is probably over 80 years old and just removing the slide was tricky when I finally discovered the touch several years ago. I just hope they can find a new spring (it almost looks like I could make one, but after destroying the original I believe I'll keep my hands out of inside and just "hope" the guy can fix it.

I'll try to put up a picture when I get it back. Some wearing of the bluing on the slide near the barrel, and some on sharp edges on the side from the holster, but in reasonably good shape and fired reliably prior to the firing pin departure when I accidentetly removed the slide while cycling some foreign made ammo through it and the spring went sailing.

Some lessons are learned the hard way and hope it's able to be fixed as it was an enjoyable pistol to shoot. All I need is a spring with a little 3/4" piece of metal on one end. (and of course be able to find that notch Jim is speaking of.) Hopefully it will work out for the best. Thanks again for the help.

F. Prefect

James K
November 22, 2009, 07:26 PM
If the firing pin spring "went sailing", I suspect the firing pin spring guide* did also. You will need the guide as the spring would only be damaged again if the guide is not there, plus you can't install the spring without the guide hooking into the notch in the "roof" of the slide. (Yes, it is there; it is just not easy to see unless you look for it.)

*Possibly that "3/4 inch piece of metal", but it can't be just a piece of metal - it has to be shaped correctly. They can be easily made but the rear end has to have an inlet edge to hook into that notch.

Jim

fprefect
November 22, 2009, 11:40 PM
If the firing pin spring "went sailing", I suspect the firing pin spring guide* did also. You will need the guide as the spring would only be damaged again if the guide is not there, plus you can't install the spring without the guide hooking into the notch in the "roof" of the slide. (Yes, it is there; it is just not easy to see unless you look for it.)

*Possibly that "3/4 inch piece of metal", but it can't be just a piece of metal - it has to be shaped correctly. They can be easily made but the rear end has to have an inlet edge to hook into that notch.



Believe it or not, the guide as well as the pin remained in position (probably thanks to being covered with 60+ years of dirt and grease. What went flying was just a spring about 2 inches in length with a metal "tip" on one end. I must have accidentally got the darn thing put back together (although probably not in the notch that I was not even aware existed) and the pistol would fire about 1/3rd of time but the firing pin left a very shallow impression on the primer. In a foolish attempt to lengthen the spring in order to obtain some additional force it broke and I'm feeling rather foolish. At least all I believe I will need is just a new firing pin spring as the pin itself and guide are still in good working order and the metal weight is still attached to one end of the spring. (Miracles even happen to idiots playing gunsmith) It's now with a gunsmith at a local range but it may be a couple of days before I know what he'll be able to come up with.

I'm hopeful it can still be put back in working order if I can get it into the hands of someone familiar with that particular pistol and appreciate your help in trying to undo a foolish attempt to work on a firearm I was completely unfamiliar with and will let you know what the outcome turns out to be.

FP

James K
November 23, 2009, 10:58 PM
I am confused. The recoil spring guide should not have remained in place if the spring flew away as the guide fits into the back of the spring. Was the guide put in wrong and put into the pin rather than into the back of the spring?

There is nothing else to "fly", just the firing pin, the coil spring, and the guide, which looks like a short fat nail with a small head. The thin part of the guide goes inside the spring coils and the head butts up against the grip safety extension. If something else flew, it either didn't belong there or something broke off.

Jim

fprefect
November 24, 2009, 09:23 AM
I am confused. The recoil spring guide should not have remained in place if the spring flew away as the guide fits into the back of the spring. Was the guide put in wrong and put into the pin rather than into the back of the spring?
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The "guide" that I am assuming is the 1/2 inch nail attacted to the spring and it was inserted (guide toward muzzle) into a metal slide, for lack of a better word, that the firing pin is attached to.

There is nothing else to "fly", just the firing pin, the coil spring, and the guide, which looks like a short fat nail with a small head. The thin part of the guide goes inside the spring coils and the head butts up against the grip safety extension. If something else flew, it either didn't belong there or something broke off.

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Nothing else came free from the pistol. Just the coil spring and the "nail with the small head". The firing pin and the metal slide it is attached to remained in the gun. Also the guide did not come out of the coil sping.


Are you saying that the end of the spring that has the "fat nail with the small head" should be pointed toward the rear of the gun. If this is the case, it was not. The end with "nail" was pointed toward the muzzle, fitted into a piece that had the firing pin attached and slides back and forth. I could find no place that the "open" end of the coil sping should fit. Perhaps into the notch you referred to earlier. But the open end of the spring was pointed toward the rear of gun when the slide first came partially off, of that I am sure as it did not fly completely out until I lifted the slide up further. Could it have been in backwards?
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The only thing that actually came free from the pistol was the spring you describe with the metal "nail" on one end. That end of the spring (with the nail) slid into a hole or slot on a piece that was connected to the firing pin and slid back and forth on some grooves. I believe this piece could be taken completely out but I left in the gun. To the best of my knowledge, the only part that came free from the gun was just the coil spring with the metal "nail" and they remained connected. I really think all that I need is a new coil spring and nail, and someone other than myself who knows something about how it should be inserted correctly.

Jim, I truly appriciate your help with this matter and appologize if I was not making myself clear earlier.

Gary

fprefect
November 29, 2009, 02:25 PM
When you get a new spring, here is the proper way to install it.

With the slide off and held upside down, insert the firing pin, spring and spring guide. Push the guide in and down (toward the top of the slide), compressing the firing pin spring, until the rear of the firing pin spring guide snaps down into the notch in the inside top of the slide.

Make sure things stay that way while you put the slide on. With the slide on, retracting it will release the firing pin spring guide from the slide notch and the gun will work normally.



I finally found the notch you were speaking of, but the spring I obtained from a local gun shop is apparently not stiff enough as it only leaves a shallow impression in the the primers. Fires about 1 time in 5.

I live in Missouri and have always been pleased with the parts and service from Midway which is about 125 miles from where I live, but when I ordered and "complete" spring replacement kit for the Ortgies 32 ACP or 380 ACP, the kit contained ever spring except a firing pin spring!

I just ordered a single firing pin spring specifically for an Ortgies 32 or 380 ACP from e-gunparts.com suggested by Crapulence and jal5 and hopefully it might have a little more "backbone".

Just out of curiosity, would you think that stretching the spring very slightly (lengthening it by .25" or so) would give it a little more striking force? Just thought I might give it a try while waiting for the new (hopefully correct) spring to arrive? I'm really beginning to wonder if I'll ever get the right spring for this darn pistol. A spring replacement kit containing 6 different springs that does not include a firing pin spring. Unbelievable.

F. Prefect

James K
November 30, 2009, 09:05 PM
Hi, fprefect,

Click on the link below and you will see a schematic of the Ortgies pistol. As far as I know, they are all the same. Parts 5, 6, and 7 are the only three parts in the area under discussion, and they go together exactly as shown.

http://www.e-gunparts.com/products_new.asp?CatID=3728

The firing pin spring guide (5) has a groove under the head and the firing pin spring should have the end coil crimped to fit into that groove so the parts stay together.

It is a good idea to expand the first coil at the front of the firing pin spring also, so it fits tightly into the firing pin. That keeps all three parts together and allows them to be removed/installed as a unit.

To assemble, you put the firing pin in from the bottom of the slide (it won't fit through the hole in the rear) fitting the lug on its side into the cutout in the slide. Then you install the firing pin spring (open end forward) into the firing pin, and push the firing pin spring guide forward, compressing the firing pin spring, until the head of the guide can be pushed into that slot in the inside top of the slide. Then the recoil spring can be put on the barrel (it also has a tight end that goes over the barrel to keep it from jumping away), and the slide brought back and down. If the cutout in the slide or the firing pin spring guide is worn, the guide might not stay in place, but both can be reshaped if necessary.

(I will note that those firing pins are subject to breakage, so always use snap caps when releasing the firing pin. Also because of frequent breakage, gunsmith made or home made parts can often be found in those guns. Some are OK, but others are not and may be dangerous.)

Hope this helps.

Jim

fprefect
December 1, 2009, 09:54 AM
Thanks for all the help Jim. I have located the notch you are speaking of and the guide fits nicely and the slide closes and the guide pin stays in place.

Right now, do to fact the "complete spring kit" I ordered was missing the one spring I needed the only spring I have in the pistol now is one the gunsmith happened to have on hand and is not a "stiff" as the pin that originally came out. (it will indent the primer but not quite sufficiently to to ignite them most of the time) What's truly amazing is that whomever removed the slide the last time, (could have been my father after coming home from Europe, (I was a few years from arriving on the scene at that time) they put the spring and pin in backward and it functioned perfectly with the open end of the spring either catching in the notch or just being compressed against the back of the slide. I won't go into graphic detail, but in attempting to find a place for the spring to rest when I replaced the slide, the spring bend the first time I attempted to cock the weapon.

Anyway, I have ordered an Ortgies firing pin for a 32 ACP, 7.65 mm spring from 2 different sources, and from your description as to how it fits, I hope to have a functioning pistol within a few days. It has been frustrating, but if nothing else a managed to learn a few things about the workings of the pistol. I'll post a message if the stiffer spring is able to ignite the primers more often than about 25% of the time.:(

Gary

James K
December 1, 2009, 07:36 PM
Just for understanding: in operation, the back of the firing pin spring guide fits against the top part of the grip safety. The firing pin spring is what pushes the grip safety back so it has to be powerful enough to do that as well as fire the gun.

Jim

Tom2
December 1, 2009, 08:53 PM
Yea just astounds me that of all the prewar oddball pocket pistols, the Ortgies have someone making new springs for them. I have a pair of them I need to testfire one of these years. Might have to get the springs if it will not busta cap.

fprefect
December 2, 2009, 09:29 AM
We're gettin' closer, even with the weaker spring the local gunsmith tried, it pops the strap safety back better than it did before. I have 2 springs that are supposedly designed for this pistol ordered from 2 different sources and hopefully one will work. I should have had one in the kit I bought from Midway but of the 8 springs that were supposed to be included, of all things that was missing from the package, it turned out to be the firing pin spring.

Thanks again for your help as it has helped me become a lot more familiar with the workings of the pistol and it now will fire on occasion, but I need just a little more ump in the firing pin spring and hopefully one of the new springs will give the same depth of primer indentation that the old one did before I managed to ruin it by thinking I was some kind of gunsmith.

Gary

fprefect
December 7, 2009, 03:55 PM
Just for understanding: in operation, the back of the firing pin spring guide fits against the top part of the grip safety. The firing pin spring is what pushes the grip safety back so it has to be powerful enough to do that as well as fire the gun.

Jim
__________________
Jim Keenan



Got both springs in on the same day. Thanks for all your help, got one intalled and fired 3 magazines of Sellier and Bellot Chech Rep. ammo through it without a hitch. Finally found and ordered some Remington hardball ammunition yesterday (about the only thing available is FMJ) which might be a bit more reliable, but I'm just glad to have it fixed and working again.

Tom2, if you're looking for the springs, I found one at Wolff Gunspringmakers for $3.49 http://www.gunsprings.com. Their 800 number is on their website.

The other came from Numrich Gun Parts Corp. $4.40 http://www.e-gunparts.com
Phone 1 866 6867424

F. Prefect