PDA

View Full Version : JP Sauer and Sohn 1930 Behorden?


SE Bill
November 12, 2009, 05:45 PM
Hi everybody. I recently recieved a pistol from my father, passed down from my grandfather who collected it while he was in Germany during WW2. It was one of many of his souveneirs from the war, but all my dad new about it is that it doesn't work. My grandfather was the gun enthusiast and probably knew all I ever wanted to know about it, but he passed away in the early nineties.

I have two goals. First is to positively identify it and find out as much as I can about it. Pictures do better than my inexperienced opinions, so I'll post a whole bunch of them. From what I researched online (mostly from this forum), I've deduced its a Model 1930 Behorden, with what appear to be German markings (which would make sense). Beyond that, I'm clueless. The first three digits of the 6-digit serial number are 206.

Additionally, I've had a very hard time determining its value. I have no plans whatsoever to sell it, but it would be nice to know its rough value before altering it (i.e. having it re-blued, installing a custom part, etc.) Other than the finish, which is not in very good shape, the gun is in pretty good shape (no damage, all parts intact other than the firing pin+spring). Grips are in especially good shape.

My other goal is to get it firing again. After disassembling the slide/firing pin area, I've determined that the problem is that its missing the firing pin and firing pin spring. I got the right spring from Numrich. Unfortunately, the firing pin I ordered is a hair too wide (otherwise the right one). The pin that I think is the right one was sold out and they told me not to hold my breath. Here's the link to it: http://www.e-gunparts.com/product.asp?chrProductSKU=447850&CatID=9200&mySort=1 , the one I incorrectly ordered was the .281 body diameter pin.

I've searched high and low and can't find a place that stocks the firing pin I need. Do any of you guys know where I can get one (either original or custom made)?. I have 30 days to return this pin if I can find the right one elsewhere. Otherwise, I'm considering having a friend lathe it down to the right size (although I'm worried about weakening it).

Sooo... thoughts on value and what to do about the firing pin?

Don't worry about hurting my feelings if it's not very valuable, I'll have plenty of fun fixing it up if thats the case.

Thanks in advance!!

Billy

... more pictures to come...

SE Bill
November 12, 2009, 05:46 PM
More pictures

SE Bill
November 12, 2009, 05:48 PM
Pictures

SE Bill
November 12, 2009, 05:50 PM
Close-up of the marking, and the holster.

Avenger
November 12, 2009, 08:31 PM
Your pistol is most likely a standard 1913, aka the "old model", but could very well be a Behorden. Behorden refers to pistols purchased by police or other law enforcement agencies, and they are usually marked with agency numbers on the frame or slide. Most (but not all) of the Behorden models also had the "additional safety", which was a trigger bar lock engaged by the safety lever. But not all Behordens had those features, it depended on the budget of the agency purchasing the pistol. The phrasing Sauer & Sohn on the slide means it was produced for German domestic sale, export versions had Sauer & Son on the slide.

My Dad has a 1913, serial 227xxx, which translates to 1922 production. Yours probably dates as a 1921 or 1920 production, but wartime and post-war production was kind of poorly documented, a year range is the best the factory could give us (BTW, Sauer is now part of SIG-Sauer, and their history department went above and beyond while Dad was trying to learn about his.)

I'd think long and hard about getting a good smith to look at that pistol before firing it, the firing pin and spring may not have been lost, but THROWN AWAY...There isn't much that can go wrong with a blowback pistol, but...

Dad's pistol THRIVES on a diet of Sellier & Bellot 73gr. Nice little shooter, VERY accurate for such a short barrel.

SE Bill
November 12, 2009, 09:41 PM
Thanks Avenger! I guess I was thinking model a 1930 or Behorden because of the trigger safety that it has. It was my understanding that they didn't introduce that until the 1930 model?

If you're right that it is in fact a 1913, that would probably be better anyway, as all I want out of the gun is for it to be a fun little shooter, and it looks like 1913 parts are alot easier to come by than 1930 parts are.

Thanks again,
Billy

James K
November 13, 2009, 12:21 AM
Well, it is a Model 1930, though I think that Sauer just called it the New Model. Not only does it have the trigger safety, but the grip shape is different from the old model (Model 1913 or 1914, depending on which book you use; the terms are collector inventions anyway). IIRC, the firing pin is interchangeable with that of the old model. Since those firing pins break regularly, Gun Parts is having them reproduced slightly oversize so they can be fitted. You might need to fit the one you have, but if you are not sure what is involved, you might want to have the work done by a gunsmith.

The "Crown/N" is the standard German Nitro proof mark before 1939, when it was replaced by the Nazi "Eagle/N."

(Also, NO dry firing - that is what breaks the firing pins.)

Jim

sauerfan
November 13, 2009, 06:31 AM
Billy,

what you have is Sauer Behördenmodell. I’d like to know the complete serial number, because the 206xxx SN range is an interesting one, because from 206xxx to 216xxx nearly all went to the Prussian police. 206776 is the lowest SN I have in my database having a Prussian police acceptance sunburst/K (what – if present – is always located on the left front trigger guard). 206406 is a normal commercial variation (no police acceptance). Maybe there are other markings present, like B.S. xx (would be police of Braunschweig) or others? I’m asking, because there are in the 205xxx and early 206xxx range some known with other police markings. You gun probably was made in 1933, btw.

The holster does not belong to the pistol. It’s an Italian Beretta holster, should I remember correctly.

Avenger, Jim,

Your pistol is most likely a standard 1913, aka the "old model", but could very well be a Behorden. Behorden refers to pistols purchased by police or other law enforcement agencies, and they are usually marked with agency numbers on the frame or slide. Most (but not all) of the Behorden models also had the "additional safety", which was a trigger bar lock engaged by the safety lever. But not all Behordens had those features, it depended on the budget of the agency purchasing the pistol.

Well, it is a Model 1930, though I think that Sauer just called it the New Model.

No. It is, in fact, a Behördenmodell (BM). Sauer offered at that time two models: the 1930 and the Behördenmodell. Both are different. The main difference is the small safety trigger within the trigger, what can be found only on the BM, but not on the model 1930. Another difference is the loading indicator, present only on the BMs. Both began their career in different SN blocks: the model 1930 began at 180,001, while the BM started at 200,001. When the 1930s reached 199,999, the 1930s continued in the normal SN range of the BMs.

There were given to the 1930 and the BM, respectively different manuals (see images) and boxes.

Avenger,

My Dad has a 1913, serial 227xxx, which translates to 1922 production. Yours probably dates as a 1921 or 1920 production

Nope. Shouldn’t you mistyped the SN, a 227xxx it is either a BM or a 1930. In any case, a very high SN. I liked to see the gun, if it’s really 227xxx. But if it should be 127xxx, then I’d rate it as a model 1913, second variation, made app. in 1923.

The phrasing Sauer & Sohn on the slide means it was produced for German domestic sale, export versions had Sauer & Son on the slide.

Well….. in fact, there are only few Sauer 1913s having an English slide legend on top:

J.P. SAUER & SON, SUHL, PRUSSIA.

These few can be found in the very early SN rage from 812 (lowest SN known) to 4685 (highest known).

Another English slide legend is

J.P. SAUER & SON, SUHL

These can be found in the SN range 128xxx to 131xxx.

And that’s it. All others do have normal slide legends, no matter, if exported to the US or not. And there are no 1930s/BMs known to exist with a “SON” legend.

Regards

Martin

SE Bill
November 13, 2009, 07:35 AM
Thanks for all the help guys!

Martin, my full serial number is 206208 .

Jim, I have a co-worker gun enthusiast who highly trusts a particular gunsmith with his old guns. Based on what you said, I think we're gonna have him see if he can make this firing pin work.

sauerfan
November 13, 2009, 09:02 AM
He Billy,

thanks for the full SN.

Regarding breech block and firing pin. Enclosed please find three photos showing an BM breech block, a matching firing pin and the loading indicator lever (pin). The lever often is missing, as it is spring loaded and tends to “escape”. The channel in the firing pin is necessary to work together with the loading pin.

If the pin is missing: don’t ask me where to get a replacement! Well, there is a German dealer:

http://www.cds-ehrenreich.de/ersatzt/sauer30.htm

but he’s asking 25 Euros (app. 37.50 $) for the loading indicator pin and 45 Euros (ap. 67.50 $) for the firing pin. Must be the gold plated and rich engraved version…..

Regards

Martin

SE Bill
November 13, 2009, 11:03 AM
WOW Martin, Thank you!! My breech block still has the loading pin indicator lever and it seems to operate smoothly. However, the firing pin that I purchased does not have the channel in it (perhaps the gunsmith could add that in addition to slimming it down?) I paid $31 US for the the firing pin that I have now. Not sure if it would cost more to have the gunsmith modify my current pin, or return that one and order from the guy you mentioned... I'll keep you guys updated with any progress. I grew up playing with this thing in the attic when I was younger. I guess my father new there was no way it could fire so he left it out as a decoy so that I wouldn't find the ones that worked.

I really appreciate your help.

Billy

sauerfan
November 13, 2009, 11:47 AM
Hi Billy,

Well, just a guess: it will be cheaper if the gun smith takes the replacement firing pin and makes the necessary modifications (cutting the channel or slit in, brining it to the appropriate diameter) than making a totally new firing pin out of a metal block. But ask him and you’ll know.

I grew up playing with this thing in the attic when I was younger.

*sigh* Reminds me on my own childhood when I played with my father’s Mauser 1914 (mint condition, rare variation)…but my father did not know what I was doing….. ;) Meanwhile, the pistol is in a collection of a friend and I must grin every time I see my "toy" again.

A hint regarding the finish: it can easily be improved with fine (!) steel wool: Soak the steel wool in oil (never use dry steel wool) and go over the surface. Your pistol will look much nicer after this treatment. It will not turn it into showroom condition, but you can at least improve the appearance.

Regarding the firing pin/loading lever. For better understanding, see the enclosed image from Sauer’s relating patent. In fact, the original idea was to have an indicator indicating loaded AND cocked condition. On the BMs I am aware of, this doesn’t work this way – it’s only a loading indicator. Anyway, you’ll see from the drawing: the channel (groove) is absolutely necessary.


Best regards

Martin

James K
November 13, 2009, 04:11 PM
Hi, Sauerfan,

I was hoping you would get into the discussion, even if it means once again exposing my ignorance. It is a common belief and repeated in several books that the Model 30 and the Behorden Model are the same; I am glad to have that cleared up.

I said earlier that I thought the Model 30 and the Model 1913 firing pins were the same; that might be true of the Model 30 (is it?) but obviously not of the BM. I have a Model 1913, but do not have either the 30 or the BM so I can't check, but was relying on memory from having replaced the firing pins on 1913's and Model 30's. I don't recall ever having worked on a BM.

Jim

Avenger
November 13, 2009, 10:05 PM
Sauerfan, I'm going on memory for the serial number, so I am probably mistaken on that score, or confusing it with one of Dad's other pieces. I'll check with him about it. But I am certain it was 1922 production, Dad was a little surprised it was that old. His father, my grandpa, had bought the gun from a crewman on a merchantman (one of them was German, we don't know if it was the crewman or the merchantman) visiting the Cleveland docks sometime in the mid-late 30s (time period is kinda vague too, Dad thinks it was later, the rest of the family thinks it was earlier) essentially new-in-box, pretty much thinking it was new. Maybe he got a little taken, but I'd say the family got his money's worth out of it in the end.

In any case, I'm no expert, and I do believe this is the SECOND time I've said something about those nice little Sauers that left the taste of shoe leather in my mouth.:o

Some questions, though, if you don't mind: was the safety that locks the triggerbar as well as the trigger some sort of option? I've seen models with higher serials that do NOT have it, and lower serials that do. Or am I getting the Old and New serial number ranges mixed up? Dad's does not have it. Was it available on the BM models?

sauerfan
November 14, 2009, 04:01 AM
Hi Jim,

You’re welcome. Actually, only few know, that the 1930 and the BM are in fact two different models. The reason is in most of the books, where you can find a lot of wrong information.

Regarding the firing pin of a 1913 and 1930, respectively: honestly, I don’t know, if they are interchangeable. I never tried it out. I guess, they will, but I don’t know.

Hi Avenger,

essentially new-in-box

What? Does this mean the box is still there? If so, I’d like to see photos of it. Original Sauer boxes are scarce, no matter which model.

Some questions, though, if you don't mind: was the safety that locks the triggerbar as well as the trigger some sort of option? I've seen models with higher serials that do NOT have it, and lower serials that do. Or am I getting the Old and New serial number ranges mixed up? Dad's does not have it. Was it available on the BM models?

Ah, you are referring to the “Zusatzsicherung” (ZS) or additional safety, aren’t you? Regarding the 1913s little sister, the model 1919 in .25acp we have discussed this already in this thread:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=313848

As far as the ZS on the 1913 is concerned: this was introduced around SN 137,000. The ones having the ZS are called the third variation of the 1913. But, yes, there are some with lower SN having the ZS also. 99.9% of these are police pistols which were retrofitted with the ZS in the (late) twenties and thirties. There was in the III. Reich period a decree ordering the police gun shops to equip the 1913s with the ZS. So, (nearly) all police 1913s were altered by incorporating the ZS. I have a Bavarian police 1913 SN 103052 which has the ZS added (see photo). All these retrofitted ZSs can be detected by the blank metal around the slit which was cut for incorporating the ZS.

No, the 1930/BM don’t have it. The last model which has it is the model 1926 and the 1919, third variation.

Regards

Martin

Avenger
November 16, 2009, 09:09 PM
What? Does this mean the box is still there? If so, I’d like to see photos of it. Original Sauer boxes are scarce, no matter which model.

Sorry, I phrased that poorly. I meant that when Grandpa got it, the pistol was in factory original condition, with zero or very little usage evident, just like when it was packaged. If Grandpa got the box, it was very probably re-used for hiding his cigars from Grandma! He did have a nice formed leather holster for it that Dad thinks was German made, but not factory, he wore it with a Sam Brown belt while on guard duty, the Sauer did part-time duty along with a Colt Pocket Hammerless as his carry pieces.

sauerfan
November 17, 2009, 02:09 AM
Hi Avenger,

If Grandpa got the box, it was very probably re-used for hiding his cigars from Grandma!

Ah, I see. This is one of the reasons, why all Sauer boxes are @@@@ rare. Very usable for hiding/storing cigars.:D

In any case, I liked to see photos of your Dad’s Sauer.

Regards

Martin

SE Bill
November 17, 2009, 02:28 PM
Hi Martin,

I tried contacting the dealer you posted at: http://www.cds-ehrenreich.de/ersatzt/sauer30.htm and they said that they do not have the behorden firing pin in stock either.

My coworker and I precisely measured my gun and firing pin and this is what we came up with:

The hole inside the bolt (where the firing pin should slide) is exactly .2645" in diameter, and the slot at the bottom is .1000" wide. The depth appears to be 1.809", but that was hard to get exact.

The firing pin I got from Numrich has a radius of .275" except for the area at the back, where it appears to have been ground down to .265".

It looks like it shouldn't be too hard to thin the firing pin down to .263 or so, but the problem is the channel that I need to make. I have no idea how big it needs to be or where it should stop and start. Do you have any detailed drawings of the firing pin with dimensions, or if you have the time, could you measure one that you have and provide the exact dimensions? Its starting to look like my only hope is to modify this one.

If you don't have the time to take the dimensions, I could even use adobe acrobat to scale the picture as long as it is perfectly straight on. It wouldn't be as exact as your measurement, but if you could at least provide a perfectly straight on picture of the channel, that would be better than nothing.

Thanks for your tremendous amount of help.

Billy

sauerfan
November 18, 2009, 10:14 AM
Hi Billy,

please find enclosed

a scan of the top view of the BM firing pin together with an inch scale (the pencil is there only to arrest it in its position)

a drawing of the firing pin with measures – hope, I did it precisely enough.

Best regards

Martin

RickB
November 18, 2009, 06:29 PM
A friend of mine got a Behoerden from his dad (actually, the "kids" found the gun in their dad's effects when the old guy passed, none of them knowing he owned a gun). It was missing the forward part of the loaded-chamber indicator - "d" in the patent drawing - but was otherwise complete. It appeared to be missing the sleeve that covers the recoil spring, but I got a tip that the gun may have been improperly assembled and the sleeve would be on the wrong end of the spring and so not visible through the ejection port, and that's exactly how it turned out. I remember there being a sort of sunburst stamp, like a sun with rays over the horizon, but don't remember the significance of that? Sort of a neat gun, considering I'd told the guy, before seeing the gun, that a lot of pocket pistols were made in Europe in the '20 and '30s, and it probably wasn't anything too interesting! :o

SE Bill
November 18, 2009, 08:10 PM
Martin, you are the Man! I couldn't have gotten anywhere without you. I'll be sure to keep you posted with my progress.

Thanks again for everything!

Billy

sauerfan
November 19, 2009, 05:54 AM
Hi RickB,

I remember there being a sort of sunburst stamp, like a sun with rays over the horizon, but don't remember the significance of that?

that’s a Police acceptance marking of the Prussian police. Most BMs in the SN range 206,xxx to 216,xxx do have it. It’s either a K in sunburst or a diamond (rhombus) in sunburst. In the enclosed image the sunburst/K is shown.

Regards

Martin

SE Bill
December 7, 2009, 05:51 PM
Just an update,

I exchanged my firing pin at Numrich with one that now fits in my bolt. It still needs to have the slot ground/cut out of it, and the tip needs to be brought down a hair, but otherwise, a MUCH better fit. Only thing that will definitely be different is that it does not have that little step at the front of the catch on the back of the pin (I attached a picture of what I mean). Martin, do you know if that little step needs to be there for the gun to function correctly?

Thanks,
Billy

sauerfan
December 8, 2009, 01:07 AM
Hi Billy,

Martin, do you know if that little step needs to be there for the gun to function correctly?

Honestly, I don't know. I never thought about the step. The 1913s don't have it, the 1930s/BNs have it. Just try the pin out if it will work without the step.

Regards

Martin

SE Bill
December 9, 2009, 08:05 AM
Thanks Martin, I'll play with it and see if it looks like anything should be interacting with it.

Another thing. The tip of my firing pin is a hair too large for the hole in the bolt. Rather than bringing down the tip of the firing pin, does it make sense to you to just drill the hole in the bolt a little bigger? I've heard that the firing pins can break fairly easily, and it seems like keeping it a little bit extra thick might help?

Thank again,
Billy

mapsjanhere
December 9, 2009, 08:31 AM
That would be an irreversible change to the gun, hurting it's collector value. It's easy to do to make it shoot, but a stickler will notice and consider it bubba'd.

sauerfan
December 12, 2009, 05:53 AM
Hi Billy,

I totally agree with "mapsjanhere": better to amend the firing pin. Changes in the original breech block isn't a good idea for my opinion.

Regards

Martin

SE Bill
December 13, 2009, 08:49 PM
Ok thanks guys. My coworker friend now has the gun and says it will fire when he gives it back to me. Last I talked to him, he brought down the tip of the pin to fit the hole. Next will be cutting the slot. Then a cleaning and lubing, And THEN... hopefully a bang! Couldn't have gotten close to this far without your help Martin!

Jeremijas
April 24, 2010, 10:17 AM
Hello,
I have got the Sauer 1913 model with number 132xxx. It was founded in Preussen territory (Memelland) and this gun is in very bad shape, it does not work. There is regular signs "Crown/N" , J.P. SAUER & SON, SUHL, PATENT - thats all. I'm interesting - what the year it can be made?

But I'v got the inspiration to buy the Sauer like this one and found similar one in Germany witch number 62xxx - what the year it can be made to?

Thanks :)

sauerfan
April 24, 2010, 11:07 PM
Hi Jeremias,

it isn't easy to date a Sauer 1913, as there are no records at the Suhl Archive ragarding production figures/years. Based on observations, I'd date a 132xxx SN with app. 1922 to 1924.

A SN 62xxx was made during WWI and will have been made in 1916/17.


Regards

Martin

Avenger
April 25, 2010, 01:22 PM
Sauerfan, I spoke with Dad a few months back, man was I ever messed up on the serial number and production date! It's actually 159xxx, probably 1925 to 1926. At any rate, here's a couple pics:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y181/smdalton/0402002000a.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y181/smdalton/0402002000.jpg

sauerfan
April 25, 2010, 11:39 PM
Hi Avenger,

yes, a SN 159xxx will have been made in 1925/26. BTW: one of the very last 1913s made, as the model 1926 started at 160xxx (with an overlap - some 1926s have SNs in the 159xxx range, while some 1913s have SNs higher than 160xxx).

Regards

Martin

rufous03
September 26, 2010, 02:41 AM
I have what appears to be the Mdl 30, no slide lock in the trigger guard, it is on the left side of the frame and locks into the slide when it is pulled back also doubles as a safety. the serial number is stamped on the right rear 199XXX Crown with and "N"under it on the end cap. The firing pin has been replaced and did not work, hanging up on the cartridge in the magazine after the first shot. Looking at it I found that whoever made the firing pin made it too short, so now I am looking for a proper firing pin. No Slots in the pin. a new trigger spring woul be nice as well as the original has a couple of coils broken. Other than that it is in excellent shape. Can anyone here point me in the right direction for the parts and perhaps give me a little background on the item. My father took it off a German Office in WWII, but there are no German markings on it. Any help appreciated.

Foxx4086
March 7, 2012, 07:45 PM
i just replaced a 1913 sauer i sold 20 years ago. it is mostly complete and despite looking rough, seems to in ok shape
the only missing items is grips and firing pin, (it has one but it was ground down)

#126XXX

any help in parts or year of manufacturer would be great.
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg116/Foxx4086jhc/sauer2raw.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg116/Foxx4086jhc/sauer1.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg116/Foxx4086jhc/sauer4.jpg
i plan on getting it re-blued...sometime.

Kevinofborg
June 10, 2013, 06:08 PM
Thanks Martin.

Your pictures helped me ID my pistol as a Sauer & Sohn Model 1930 and not the Borhorden. My is S/N 195XXX. Any idea when it was made? Are there any production totals of the 1930 vs. the 1930 BM? It looks to be complete but may have had some work in the the front sight is not the round 1/2 moon but a very small shark fin. The Mag is also not marked and looks to have been made by cutting a longer one down. If it was not for this tread I would not have figured it out.

Thanks
Kevin

Kevinofborg
June 17, 2013, 09:16 PM
The Photos...

archiesdad
September 2, 2013, 06:34 PM
I am looking to purchase a Behorden model. If anyone can give me a lead, I wold be most appreciative.