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View Full Version : What would be the best milsurp bolt gun to take into grizzly or brown bear country


smleno1mkIII
November 6, 2009, 12:34 AM
excluding anything in 30-06. it also has to be in its original configuration
no p17 rebarreld in 458 win mag. or mauser 98 in 35 whelen.

geologist
November 6, 2009, 12:49 AM
Lee-Enfield No.5 carbine. 10 rounds of 180gr .303 softpoints in a robust, reliable, compact CRF carbine with aperture sights. What's not to like?

LE No.4s are still used by the Canadian Rangers who patrol our arctic.

smleno1mkIII
November 6, 2009, 01:00 AM
I agree I love Enfields.

Malamute
November 6, 2009, 01:00 AM
Dang, all my choices were going to be in 30-06.


How about a Winchester Hotchkiss 45-70? Or a Remington-Keene in 45-70?

smleno1mkIII
November 6, 2009, 01:04 AM
oh very good but also very uncommon but I agree. Oh I just thought of a good one what about a Mosin M38 7.62x54R has roughly the same power as a 30-06 20inch barrel light roughly 7 lbs would also be great for someone on a buget. I've heard those wolf 203 grain soft points are killers and the dang thing is so loud even if you miss ther's a chance the noise and flash erupting from the muzzle might scare Mr. Bear away.

Pathfinder45
November 6, 2009, 01:54 AM
8mm Mauser with heavy hand-loads or some stout European ammo. I think Norma makes some good stuff. American 8mm ammo is only loaded to 32 Winchester Special velocity or so. Why not a Springfield or 1917 in .30-'06?

smleno1mkIII
November 6, 2009, 02:02 AM
I just wanted to make it interesting outherwise everyone would have said 30-06.

Buzzcook
November 6, 2009, 02:07 AM
8mm Mauser is a good round. If you want to go with black powder then the 11mm Mauser or one of the 50 caliber repeaters such as a Spencer might be ok.

There were some very large caliber rounds used during WWI. iirc a 20+mm Mauser and similar rifles used by the allies.

The Winchester 1895 was issued to the Russian military in 7.62x54r.

Of course you could consider a military shotgun in 12 gauge. Several types of ammo were used in pump guns from slugs to various types of shot.

smleno1mkIII
November 6, 2009, 02:12 AM
I agree the 8mm Mauser is everything the 30-06 is if loaded right.so is the 7.62x54R

tater134
November 6, 2009, 08:04 AM
I agree the 8mm Mauser is everything the 30-06 is if loaded right.so is the 7.62x54R

+1

Snowmanx7
November 6, 2009, 10:13 AM
+1 more on the 8mm/54r. I'd take a Mosin with some 220gr SP ammo.

jcjr3020
November 6, 2009, 10:24 AM
What about the M1 in .308:D They did make a few.

CowTowner
November 6, 2009, 02:26 PM
I'm going with the 303. It's just a plain, old, good round for hunting everything.

Ignition Override
November 8, 2009, 12:41 AM
A guy stopped a charging grizzly with four rounds from his short LE #5 "Jungle Carbine". The muzzle velocity is only about 2,000 fps.

Tikirocker
November 8, 2009, 06:03 AM
For me a No5 Mk1 - The 303 has taken all of Africa's big 5 game and has taken just about every kind of game on earth since the 1900's. I recommend you read Pattersons book about the Tsavo Lions that the film Ghost and the Darkness was based on. I have the book and he talks about his trusty .303 with some regularity ... then you see Rhino's on the deck.

Here's a Water Buffalo taken out by a Jungle Carbine in Australia's Northern Territory ... the .303 does just fine.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h271/Tikirocker/JungleCarbineBuff2.jpg

Tiki.

omsdon
November 8, 2009, 08:58 PM
Mosin M-38 or M-44

561packrat
November 8, 2009, 10:47 PM
8mm Lebel

DoctorXring
November 8, 2009, 11:51 PM
.

My choice would be your mauser 98 of choice loaded
with 200 grain Nosler Partition bullets at 2600 fps.

.

mp25ds4
November 9, 2009, 03:22 PM
i think a Mosin m44 would do the trick, if you couldnt hit it with the first 5 shots you could bayonet it in the face :D

jsmaye
November 10, 2009, 08:47 AM
What would be the best milsurp bolt gun to take into grizzly or brown bear country

I think the question is answered differently if I'm actually hunting bears or just traveling through bear-strewn wilderness. For the former I'd take the most accurate milsurp - either a K31 or a Finn Mosin. If it's the latter, accuracy may not be as important as portability, in which case any Mosin carbine or even an M95 would be my choice.

gyvel
November 10, 2009, 11:02 AM
Boys cal .55 anti-tank rifle or a Lahti 20mm anti-tank rifle:D

And what's the big deal about shooting a cow with a .303? From what I remember about my year in Thailand during the war, water buffalo were pretty docile. (And, as much as I hate to say it, pretty tasty, too.:D)

azredhawk44
November 10, 2009, 11:11 AM
8mm Mauser, with fixed bayonet. 200-220gr solid, either hard cast gas checked, or a banded copper solid.

Tikirocker
November 10, 2009, 11:29 AM
And what's the big deal about shooting a cow with a .303?


It's about stopping power ... not pi$$ing power. Having shot Cape Buffalo in Botswana and shot Wild Buff in Northern Australia I can tell you there is a huge difference in temperament between domestic Asiatic Water Buff and the Wild type. Any experienced hunter who knows his butt from his elbow will tell you Wild Asiatic Water Buff and African Cape Buff are equally dangerous and deadly.

So yeah ... shooting a domestic cow is no big deal - you shot a cow, not wild game. :rolleyes:

Tiki.

geologist
November 10, 2009, 11:43 AM
We used to be able to buy heavier factory .303 british ammo , 215 gr saftpoints but nowadays all I see are 180 gr softpoints.

The old timer prospectors and geologists I knew always used the heavier ammo on problem black and grizzly bears and they never felt undergunned.

Rangefinder
November 10, 2009, 11:46 AM
Mosin M-38 or M-44

This one has my vote too. Pretty small package, all things considered, but packs a heck of a whollup with some 180gr. soft-points. And if you happen to miss with the bullet, you still might kill 'em with the muzzle flash :D.

Dustin0
November 10, 2009, 12:41 PM
8mm Mauser

p99guy
November 10, 2009, 04:32 PM
As an owner of several mosins and Enfields....Alot of mosin actions are just too sticky and slow/tempremental/ slow to reload with the low quality stripper clips that seem in such supply(compared to the better ones)
For me to consider them ideal (didnt say it couldnt be done) to rapidly bust caps on something 35feet and closing fast( and thinking i'm going to taste just like chicken) I would much rather be doing it with a Lee Enfield if I had to do it. Butter smooth and rapid, twice the onboard ammo supply. Nothing like having five rounds when the job took seven......

38superhero
November 10, 2009, 04:37 PM
M-44

5whiskey
November 10, 2009, 06:11 PM
As an owner of several mosins and Enfields....Alot of mosin actions are just too sticky and slow/tempremental/ slow to reload with the low quality stripper clips that seem in such supply(compared to the better ones)
For me to consider them ideal (didnt say it couldnt be done) to rapidly bust caps on something 35feet and closing fast( and thinking i'm going to taste just like chicken) I would much rather be doing it with a Lee Enfield if I had to do it. Butter smooth and rapid, twice the onboard ammo supply. Nothing like having five rounds when the job took seven......

What he said... though I wouldn't feel under-gunned with a good mauser that has a slick action. Kinda like my Yugo 24/47 :D (You'd be amazed at how fast you can work the bolt... not as good as a enfield, but pretty darn good none-the-less)

SigP6Carry
November 10, 2009, 06:22 PM
The Mosin action isn't bad to work when you've got it cleaned up and worked out. The reloading isn't great, though, kind of slow. The Mauser and Enfeild actions work like butter, generally, but nothing's going to be faster than a K31 or K11. Straight pull bolts are gonna work a lot faster than most bolts.

DWARREN123
November 10, 2009, 11:46 PM
Any will probably work but the ammo must be the proper type.

Webleymkv
November 10, 2009, 11:51 PM
Really, when loaded with proper bullets any of the full-power cartridges that milsurp bolt guns typically come in would be sufficient (though admittedly 6.5 Swede, Arisaka, or Carcano may be a tad light for Grizz). Personally, I'd probably go for a K31 or Lee-Enfield due to the faster cycling bolts.

madcratebuilder
November 11, 2009, 08:13 AM
.303 Enfield, I can't think of a faster bolt gun.

SigP6Carry
November 11, 2009, 12:14 PM
Mad Crate Builder, I can: Swiss K31

gyvel
November 11, 2009, 04:18 PM
So yeah ... shooting a domestic cow is no big deal - you shot a cow, not wild game.

I never said I shot anything in Thailand; I was stationed there during the Vietnam War and the water buffalo were everywhere, including roaming town streets.

Apparently you are telling me that you shot some vicious, wild variety of water buffalo. I know Cape buffalo are very dangerous game, but yours didn't look like a Cape buffalo to me, hence my statement.

Having said that, .303 is one of my favorite calibres, and the Lee-Enfield rifle is one of my most beloved shooters.

Tikirocker
November 11, 2009, 04:52 PM
Apparently you are telling me that you shot some vicious, wild variety of water buffalo. I know Cape buffalo are very dangerous game, but yours didn't look like a Cape buffalo to me, hence my statement.


Mate ... I've hunted Cape Buff in Africa and I have also had experience hunting wild Asiatic Buff in the Northern Territory. Ask any game hunter who knows buffalo ( I'm one ) and they will tell you Cape buff and Wild Asiatic Buff in Australia are equally dangerous. To be making the statements you are making, I get the impression you don't really know much about the subject matter, but by all means feel free to come to the NT and head bush to shoot Buff with that attitude - it's a fast way to end up dead.

My point? The .303, hand loaded for hunting will stop pretty much anything THAT big, THAT was the point of the picture. Since that point is lost on you and you think it was about what looks more dangerous to you, maybe I'll go back and photo shop some fangs on the Buffalo to press the point home. :rolleyes:

Tiki.

jsmaye
November 12, 2009, 09:23 AM
You said you shot a water buffalo and showed us a picture of a dead water buffalo. So we thought it was a water buffalo. Then you tell us it's a Wild Asiatic Australian Water Buffalo, the ferocity of which is unmatched by any but the Cape Buffalo. Sorry, we thought it was a water buffalo. Like you originally said.

Tikirocker
November 12, 2009, 12:24 PM
Asiatic Buffalo ARE a Water Buff, just a specific type of Water buff found in the North of OZ; the distinction must be made between wild and domestic of course and there are different types of Asiatic Water Buff also. Rather than keep pace with this three ringed circus, suggest you go do some research on Buff hunting in the North of Australia and learn about the dangers, if you doubt there are any.

I made no statements in my initial post about the hunt being INCREDIBLY dangerous and vicious or any other nonsense. Until somebody likened hunting a wild buff to shooting a domestic cow in Vietnam, my only point was the .303 will take down big game reliably, it still is ...

I'll leave it here thanks ... sheesh.

ISC
November 12, 2009, 12:31 PM
I'd take my FR8 anywhere to hunt anything in North America.

gyvel
November 12, 2009, 06:37 PM
Ask any game hunter who knows buffalo ( I'm one ) and they will tell you Cape buff and Wild Asiatic Buff in Australia are equally dangerous. To be making the statements you are making, I get the impression you don't really know much about the subject matter

You are 100% correct about that. I was going by the appearance of the animal and my own experiences with (apparently) another, more docile species of water buffalo. Sorry to offend.

James K
November 12, 2009, 11:22 PM
A cheap, Bubba'd Mauser. That way you won't be worried about the collector value when you have to throw the damned thing at the bear and run like hell.

Jim

benogil
November 12, 2009, 11:41 PM
In the real world, of people who do this, or go into the environment ( daily) with the need to do this I know of only two. They both post to to other forums.
One carry's a M44 with Woodleigh 215 grains, the other is in the environment more often ( daily ), he carries a Finn M39 with Czech silvertip. Both avoid any contact when possible.

geologist
November 13, 2009, 01:24 AM
I work in remote exploration camps in grizzly and polar bear habitat. When I was young and penniless, I kept my LE. No. 5 in my tent. Now that I can afford it, I keep a 20" BRNO 602 .375 H&H in my tent. It's not a surplus rifle but it is a true Mauser action.:cool:

Wulfmann
November 14, 2009, 08:34 PM
Expeditions to the North Pole require participants to train with and carry the 8MM K98k surplus German Mauser, as shown on a National Geographic special.

3006 and 7.62X54R are 30 calibers, the 8MM is a 32 caliber and fires a heavier bullet. The 198gr is standard but for moderate ranges the 220 gr is very effective.
It also functions under the worst conditions.
All mentioned are good rifles but the reliability and durability of a K98K is unmatched
That said the competency of the shooter is the most important factor in successfully defeating a great bear.
A 338 Win Mag would be nice and a 338 Lapua would really be nice:D

What ever you use practice working that bolt becoming proficient with quick firing.

Wulfmann

cookhj
November 14, 2009, 09:12 PM
7.62x54R M-N
8mm K98 Mauser
7.5 K31
.30-06 1903
.303 Enfield


any of those will serve you well with the right ammo.

essohbe
November 14, 2009, 09:44 PM
I vote for the M44 also, only you have to stab the bear to death with the bayonet.

mavracer
November 14, 2009, 11:46 PM
any of the major bolt guns would work well and just to prove it I'm bringing my 1896 Krag carbine. Hey I may not have the most power but I got one of the smoothest and slickest actions and since it's designed for 220 gr roundnoses adequate penatration shouldn't be a problem.

Ignition Override
November 15, 2009, 01:59 AM
Guys, Tiki knows his Lee-Enfields very well. Have read his observations on other gun websites.

I'm still a novice, but like mine (a #4:cool:, two #5s:)) so much that it would be fun to somehow be paid to shoot them every day of the week, and a recoil pad is not needed for the #5 on my skinny shoulders. Am learning to reload, just for the LEs, in order to face the total lack of surplus ammo in the future.

Voluntary tester of you surplus ammo. Free of charge and will pay shipping roundtrip.

kilimanjaro
November 23, 2009, 10:00 PM
SMLE No. 1 Mk. III, good handling, 10 rounds, hunting ammunition.

Having said that, I'd prefer a .405 or .450 Nitro Express for big and truculent carnivores.

I'd prefer to avoid a situation if I can.

smleno1mkIII
November 28, 2009, 12:22 AM
read my screen name:D

rr2241tx
December 2, 2009, 06:45 PM
Luger. You only need to be faster than your buddy, not faster than the bear.:)

Ignition Override
December 6, 2009, 08:49 PM
Tiki:

Just where does a hunter try to hit a water buffalo, or grizzly bear?
Would it be the neck or chest, assuming that the skull is too thick?

rr2241tx:

But maybe he has the truck keys in his pocket.

Three44s
December 7, 2009, 01:52 AM
M38 Mosin

(M1917 Gov. if you had not outed the .30-06)



Three 44s

Eghad
December 7, 2009, 02:02 AM
How about this..... The M1 updated....

http://www.gokart.net/shop-utopia/mccann/rifles/458garand/458garand.html

10-96
December 7, 2009, 09:23 PM
Ah-Ha! All is not lost, I'm pitching my vote for the 1903 Springfield chambered for the original .30-03, which didn't hang around all that long.

mapsjanhere
December 8, 2009, 07:59 AM
Mauser 98k, reamed for 8x64 (Brenneke's answer to the 30-06).

Erfurter1937
December 9, 2009, 08:03 AM
I would use the mauser 98k with 8mm. It's really that simple....

jaguarxk120
December 9, 2009, 09:02 AM
The 55cal. Boyes anti tank rifle should do the job!:cool:

pvt.Long
December 10, 2009, 09:57 PM
i vote for the 55 Boyes and the 1903 springfield the enfield smle and the m1 garand

Moloch
December 11, 2009, 05:09 AM
Gewehr 98!

Most powerful of the milsurps (8mm bullet 196 grain @ 2700 with great sectional density), good accuracy, and if you run out of ammo you can poke the bear from a safe distance with the 29'' long barrel. :D

jabojerry
December 15, 2009, 10:41 PM
An 8mm Model 98 Mauser will do anything a 30-06 will do if hand loaded properly. 2,700 fps with premium 165 to 180 grain projectiles will preform excellent for you on a bear. Most commercial 8mm bullets are sold to fire in the pre 1912(?) barrels which are smaller than the WWII Mausers. The muzzel velocity for most commercial 8mm's are in the 2,200 to 2,350 fps area. Not fast enough for longer, accurate shots orgood expansion with many projectiles.

Gator_Weiss
December 23, 2009, 02:58 PM
Get yourself a decent K98 loaded with 8MM handloads that duplicate the JS loadings or beyond.

In your cartridge bag, throw in a few 8mm RNSP rounds if you intend to shoot at ranges under 150 yards. Only put one RNSP in the rifle - in the chamber - because they may not feed well from the magazine like the spire points.

Do not use factory loaded 8mm mauser rounds, unless you special order from those vendors that sell them in the JS range. Most of the factory loaded 8mm is loaded down for safety in pressures. It works well for white tail deer, but I sure as hell wouldnt snipe away at a brown bear with it. You would probably wound him and who knows what happens after that?

Though it is not reccommended, Elephants have been killed with 8mm Mauser loading a solid bullet and firing into the brain. Cape Buffalo, Rhino, Hippo, have all been taken repeatedly with the 8mm Mauser. Read your history on South African hunting. Often only .303 and 8mm Mauser were all that were available in the old days down there.

The 8mm Mauser case has plenty of room in it for heavy loading. Plenty of room for your powder charges in that bottle. Bullets weighing anything at or over 180 grains will work for the project. Personally, I would load something in the way of the 220grn JSP. Place your shots carefully, and take them only under conditions where you KNOW you are going to connect well. You will get your bear. Just do it at a moderate range under good shooting conditions.

***************************************************************************
NOTES / CUT-N-PASTE - 8MM ORIGINAL LOADINGS FROM WW-2 (This was not written by me)

Then I learned two things. Number one was Norma currently loads the 8mm Mauser with a 196-grain bullet at 2,500 fps, and number two was such was pretty much what a "standard" WWII load should be. In the beginning duplicating such wasn't so easy. American ammunition makers feared their factory loads might be fired in the old .318" barrels of pre-1905 8mm Mausers instead of thereafter standard .323" barrels. Therefore they load this cartridge only to about 35,000 psi. Good condition Mauser 98 actions can easily accommodate 50,000 psi. I discussed this with powder and bullet company ballisticians and then carefully developed a good full-power 8mm load closely approximating WWII military ballistics. It consists of the 195-grain Hornady Spire Point bullet over 48 grains of Hodgdon Varget powder for an average velocity of 2,480 fps from this particular rifle. (By the way, that normal 8mm factory load clocks 2,393 fps.)
Handloads Rule

When that handload was fired from my VZ24 sniper rifle, groups now stayed under two MOA on paper targets at both 100 and 200 yards, and also the bullet's trajectory closely followed the settings of the old scope. For our mutual birthday every year, I spend a week with Clint Smith, shooting and having fun.

************************************************************************
ANOTHER CUT-N-PASTE THIS WAS NOT WRITTEN BY ME:

The 8x57JS (8mm Mauser) By Chuck Hawks

Here are some cartridge specifications of interest to 8x57JS reloaders: bullet diameter .323", maximum COL 3.228", maximum case length 2.244", SAAMI MAP 37,000 cup.

Bullets from 125 to 220 grains are available, but the most popular are those between 150-200 grains.

Medium burning rifle powders are generally the most successful in the 8x57, including VARGET, H335, H380, H414, H4350, IMR 4064, IMR 4350, W748, and VIHT N-150.

Bullet / Wgt / Dia. Powder Powder Weight MV Primer
Speer 200gr .323 IMR 4064 42.0 2198 CCI-200
Speer 200gr .323 IMR 4064 46.0 2434 CCI-200
Speer 170gr .323 IMR 4064 45.0 2509 CCI-200
Speer 170gr .323 IMR 4064 49.0 2723 CCI-200
Speer 150gr .323 IMR 4064 47.0 2695 CCI-200
Speer 150gr .323 IMR 4064 51.0 2915 CCI-200

Tamara
December 24, 2009, 07:42 AM
For me a No5 Mk1 - The 303 has taken all of Africa's big 5 game and has taken just about every kind of game on earth since the 1900's.

Sure, you can take the Big 5 with a .303. You can free-climb El Capitan or ride motorcycles naked, too. Just because you can do something doesn't necessarily make it a good idea. ;)

earlthegoat2
December 24, 2009, 07:52 AM
I dont see why Garand rifle would not be a stellar choice. Oh wait, just reread original post.

I though it was just about rebarrelling to 30-06.

Why not an M14 then. 20 rounds of rip roaring 308. Maybe not so many of these Milsurps around.

Tamara
December 24, 2009, 08:06 AM
Why not an M14 then. 20 rounds of rip roaring 308. Maybe not so many of these Milsurps around.

Because the thread specifies "bolt gun".

Out of stuff I actually have, I don't know which I'd pick. Something short and light, with as much sectional density as possible... My Steyr-Mannlicher only has military ball ammo at the moment. I do have some heavy bullet loads in 7x57 lying about, and the Venezuelan FN carbine (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2006/09/boomsticks-somehow-i-thought-youd-be.html) is a handy little piece...

mnw42
December 24, 2009, 08:07 PM
J.P. Sauer & Sohn M30 Luftwaffe survival drilling 2x 12 ga 2.5" over 1x 9.3x74mmR. I'd have Sauer lengthen the shotgun chambers to accept 2.75" shells.

Hey, a guy can dream... can't he:D