PDA

View Full Version : what the best milsurp rifle


smleno1mkIII
November 6, 2009, 12:05 AM
mauser arisaka einfield mosin etc.

smleno1mkIII
November 6, 2009, 12:12 AM
my personal favorite is my no1 mkIII Lee Enfield quick bolt holds 10 rounds accuracy is great .303 round not punishing at all reasonable power. The mkvII round is a killer did you know the brits put wood pulp in the nose of the bullet so it would tumble on impact messy lol.

emcon5
November 6, 2009, 12:14 AM
M1.

smleno1mkIII
November 6, 2009, 12:20 AM
I like the m1 as well had one for awhile but the problem is finding one now adays that has a good barrel on it every on I see and look at the barrel is shoot out. Not to mention the rest of it usually looks truly awfull yet they still want 800 dollars for the dang thing

chow chow
November 6, 2009, 12:45 AM
M1 Garand
K 31
M 39

SKSs of all types
Mosins

smleno1mkIII
November 6, 2009, 01:02 AM
I've had all of thee above with the exception of the finn m39 would love to get my hands on one someday.

qwman68
November 6, 2009, 02:02 AM
mosin

smleno1mkIII
November 6, 2009, 02:10 AM
I've had many Russian mosin nagant's 91/30 m38 m44 but would love to shoot a finn m28 m27 or m39 m28/30 I've heard they are excellent Simo Heyha the deadliest sniper ever known used an m28 with iron sights and killed many a Russian from 400 yards or more.the finns were so obssesed with accuracy that if there rifles didn't shoot under 2inches at 100 yards they were sent back to the armory because they were broken.

Pathfinder45
November 6, 2009, 02:12 AM
.....it' a toss-up between the 1903 Springfield and the 1903A3 version. But, I've heard that there's something called a 1909 Argentine Mauser that shouldn't be overlooked either.

smleno1mkIII
November 6, 2009, 02:18 AM
mosin springfield garand there all so wonderful.

simonkenton
November 6, 2009, 09:01 AM
No question about it, Swedish Mauser.

Jim Watson
November 6, 2009, 09:38 AM
Whichever one you can still get surplus ammunition for.

There are a lot of Swedish Mausers in the back of the rack because the ammo has mostly been shot up. Looks like the Swiss and Mausers are headed that way fast.

emcon5
November 6, 2009, 09:44 AM
I like the m1 as well had one for awhile but the problem is finding one now adays that has a good barrel on it every on I see and look at the barrel is shoot out. Not to mention the rest of it usually looks truly awfull yet they still want 800 dollars for the dang thing

You can get a Field Grade from CMP for $500, or a Service grade for $600
http://www.thecmp.org/m1garand.htm

Ignition Override
November 8, 2009, 12:48 AM
Jim Watson. Very good point.

The lower-cost surplus .303 ammo for LEs is getting scarce and this might help explain why so many rifles are available at gun shows.
This is why I'm learning to reload-just for the single caliber.

At two modest (?) gun shows, Batesville, MS in July and Memphis in September, there were a total of three original #3s and an original #4 "Jungle Carbine". A guy also had a WW1 vintage.
This was only on each Saturday, by about 1:00 PM. After buying a #4 in MS and the #5 in TN, I left and did not see what might have later appeared.

chow chow
November 8, 2009, 03:58 AM
With unemployment hitting new records, a lot of surplus rifles have been put on sale. Time to grab the ones u like but make sure u have ammo for it.

gandog56
November 8, 2009, 11:18 AM
There are a lot of Swedish Mausers in the back of the rack because the ammo has mostly been shot up. Looks like the Swiss and Mausers are headed that way fast.

That's just another reason to get off your butt and start reloading!:rolleyes:

Jim Watson
November 8, 2009, 12:25 PM
Well, I do, but a lot of the guys are reluctant to spend more for reloading gear than they did for the rifle.

NYPD13
November 8, 2009, 03:32 PM
Excluding the M1, It's a toss up between the German K98 and the Swiss K31. If ammo is a factor then I would include the Mosin 91/30.

destoyercarbine
November 10, 2009, 04:44 PM
The destroyer carbine.

SigP6Carry
November 10, 2009, 06:06 PM
You got ALOT of criteria to go with.
For quality of build: anything german or swiss
For accuracy: just about any of them as long as the barrel and crown is good and ammo is quality
For durability: just about any of them, they've survived decades of storage and trading hands after wars.
For historical significance: it depends on what you dig historically. If you like American History: M1, 1903, Carbine. If you like Russian history: M44, M38, M1891. The list goes on.
For ease of maintenance: Mosins. Such simple designs.
For sheer awesomeness: K31
For awkwardness: Arisakas.

It's not a simple "best"

tater134
November 10, 2009, 06:37 PM
You got ALOT of criteria to go with.
For quality of build: anything german or swiss
For accuracy: just about any of them as long as the barrel and crown is good and ammo is quality
For durability: just about any of them, they've survived decades of storage and trading hands after wars.
For historical significance: it depends on what you dig historically. If you like American History: M1, 1903, Carbine. If you like Russian history: M44, M38, M1891. The list goes on.
For ease of maintenance: Mosins. Such simple designs.
For sheer awesomeness: K31
For awkwardness: Arisakas.

I agree with just about everything said here but I gotta stick up for the Arisaka.I finially got a T99 about a year ago and after owning and shooting it I have alot more respect for the rifle.The bolt has to be the easiest to disassemble out of any of the bolt guns I own and its got an incredibly strong action.The only real disadvantage I see with the Arisaka rifles is ammo availability but if you reload its not a problem.

SigP6Carry
November 10, 2009, 06:44 PM
No. You misunderstand my "awkwardness" title. It's not that rifle itself is awkward to use or fire, but rather that it is historically awkward and misunderstood. I've heard so much stuff about how you can't shoot them because they blow up, but it's just a bunch of crying wolf. I like them, personally.

tater134
November 10, 2009, 07:14 PM
No. You misunderstand my "awkwardness" title. It's not that rifle itself is awkward to use or fire, but rather that it is historically awkward and misunderstood. I've heard so much stuff about how you can't shoot them because they blow up, but it's just a bunch of crying wolf. I like them, personally.

Ah okay now I get what you meant.I agree its definitely a very under appreciated rifle.

Webleymkv
November 10, 2009, 08:40 PM
For me: K31 with FN-49 close behind

SigP6Carry
November 10, 2009, 08:57 PM
you really can't go bad with a decent K31. The swiss never entered the war, officially, so they'll generally be in great condition (aside from beat up stocks, they used their rifles for everything but fighting). Samco still has plenty of GP11 ammo, which is match grade ball ammo, Sellier & Ballot has some great ammo and I believe Norma produces ammo for them still. People always talk about how the M1903 was the most accurate, but the K31 is built to better tolerances. Plus the straight pull bolt is FUN.

I've heard the Type 99 is a great shooter if you get one in good condition, too. The Mosins are pretty good for the price, though. My shoots about 1.25 minutes at 100yards and I paid 80 bucks for it, pretty good cost to accuracy ratio. Plus, the Mosin is a great "starter" surplus rifle.

Ignition Override
November 10, 2009, 11:31 PM
Ammo is the first priority for some of us, and order it immediately after we decide which rifle type.
The most available - by far - always seems to be 7.62x54R for the MNs.

Have only tried a limited number of types, but for me the Lee Enfield #5 "Jungle Carbine" is the favorite, and the standard (WW2) #4 is a very close second.
I ordered the ammo from Samco last April (all sold out) before ordering a specific rifle, because tons of good rifles are around, but ammo is getting scarce.

If you decide on an 8mm Mauser, there are sellers on gun sites who now sell it for about .30/round. Buy some very quickly.
A guy at "THR" is trying to sell a heap in Austin for .25/round.

3StrikesNC
November 13, 2009, 09:40 PM
M1 Garand
M1903A3

Bigjim3
November 13, 2009, 10:03 PM
Enfield and Mauser K98:cool:

HvyMtl
November 13, 2009, 10:03 PM
best bang for buck - Mosin Nagant

Best all around available - M1 Garand - due to history

hard to find- FN-49

Mausers for accuracy.

Ignition Override
November 14, 2009, 12:25 AM
Several days ago, Another (second) guy listed his 800 rds, of 8mm ammo for .25/round.
If I decided on a first or second Mauser, would buy this ammo NOW :eek:.

If not on this "For Sale" board, both sellers were at either 'THR', 'Firearmstalk' 'Firearmsforum' or 'Gunandgame' "For Sale, Trade" etc.

5whiskey
November 14, 2009, 12:29 AM
Several days ago, Another (second) guy listed his 800 rds, of 8mm ammo for .25/round.
If somebody really likes theirs, or wants their first Mauser, I would buy this ammo NOW.

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM857-5.html

I don't know how much they have, but this ammo is accurate for surplus and it's @ .27/round. I bought a spam can of it and I'm fairly happy. Probably 1 in 10 doesn't fire the first strike, but always fires the second strike. It's a tad picky, but accurate and cheap. There are other places to find surplus 8mm for roughly the same price, so it hasn't all dried up yet.



To keep true to the thread topic...
I'm very budget minded. For economical bang for buck, you can't go wrong with Mosins or Yugo Mausers. Both rifles are cheap to buy and cheap to feed, though the 8mm ammo may not be around forever. I don't see the 7.62r for cheap going away in the near future.

Chris_B
November 15, 2009, 09:44 AM
What does 'the best' mean?

Best design? Best shooter? Best loved? Best economical value? Best firepower? Best impact for its day?"

Bolt actions have potential to eclipse semis in accuracy and are in general stronger

In terms of design, I vote for the M1 rifle. If you ask me, the bolt design on the AK47 is similar enough to make me wonder. I recently heard 'negative' aspects of the M1 such as 'the "gun oil" on the M1 used in the battle of the bulge made the riflers freeze up in low temperature'. Any rifle using that "gun oil' then, logically had the same failures, so I discount the entire episode.
Also many rifles were fine designs for their time, and some, like the StG 44 transcended their era. The M1 did also. But I've never seen any 'milsurp sales' include an StG 44 so my vote here goes to the M1

Accuracy- the M1 was and is good in terms of accuracy; Very effective sniper's models were made from it. The same is true of the Mosin nagant, LE, K98, etc, so the M1 loses no footing there. But the M1 is also semi-auto, which gives it the edge when used in other roles different from sniping, so my vote goes to the M1 for its additional usefulness

Each rifle was loved by its users; that's strictly preference, so this is a wash

Best economical value? The M1 was costly compared to a bolt action no doubt. Other rifles that had been in use for a long time (K98, LE, Mosin Nagant) must have been a better value for their country in terms of dollars per fighting man equipped. Today M1 rifles are relatively expensive. So I give the edge to the Mosin nagant here

Some bolt actions had more rounds than the M1, and the US used a rifle with more capacity using the same round (BAR) as the M1 so firepower is an argument. However the BAR was not the basic infantry rifle, and the M1 loses out by only a few rounds compared to the ten round bolt actions. The semi-auto rifle is inherently quicker to fire than a bolt action, so I call that one a toss-up

Best impact? For me, the M1 is my choice. It was used through Korea to the beginning of Vietnam. My opinion is that it may have influenced the AK47 design as well. But in terms of contemporary impact- the USA was the first nation to equip its soldiers with a semi-auto rifle as a standard infantry weapon and that was with the M1. That is quite an impact on the battlefield

I vote M1 rifle

m&p45acp10+1
November 15, 2009, 09:16 PM
My favprote to shoot by far is an '03 Springfield star barrel. It was equiped with a peepsight at the rear of the reciever and still shoots sub MOA groups after God only knows how many rounds. I shot my first deer with it at 7 years old 26 years ago. It has been the death of many of deer, and hog since.
Most economical is my 91/30. I bought it yesterday at a gunshow. Took it out and shot it at the range. I was shooting it at 100 yards at a B27 silloute target at 100 yards. I did add a Buttler Creek slip on recoil pad, to reduce recoil, but the main reason was to add lenght to the stock to accomidate my long arms. No shots were outside of the 8 ring so it performed admirably with the 10 rounds that I shot out of it. I did end up spending a few hours decosmolining it. Now the bolt is butter smooth and it cycles rounds with no problems, I will fire it some more in the future when time, weather, and most importantly finances allow.

jsmaye
November 16, 2009, 09:14 AM
Bolt actions have potential to eclipse semis in accuracy and are in general stronger

I've heard this several times now, and have decided to finally throw out the red review flag. Why is a bolt-action rifle inherently more accurate than a semi-auto? As I see it, it's more the type of rifle (carbine, short-range, etc.) and caliber that each employ, rather than the actual action itself determining accuracy. Once the round is chambered, how does the action used to chamber the round have any impact on accuracy?

The 'stronger' part I'll accept because of the semi's moving bolt versus a manual bolt having multiple locking lugs.

Wulfmann
November 16, 2009, 02:24 PM
Most beginners in old surplus rifles buy either what suits their fantasy or their wallet.

The simple fact is this; nearly every type of milsurp ammo is gone.

If you want a good milsurp (and they are all good but some might suit your taste better) rifle and you want to shoot it for 10-20-30-40-50 years check what ammo can be bought in quantity now and buy the rifle that suits the ammo. Buy one rifle and spend every dime on all the ammo you can buy.
Now, i am serious, no joke here. Buy 10,000 rounds buy 20K or more if you can

A can of Ballistol diluted can clean a case of corrosive fired primers or just as good a pan of boiling hot water down the bore followed with regular oil cleaners and you will have a sturdy easy to care for reasonably accurate rifle that will out live you.

IMO, the 98 Mauser action is the strongest and one can find sealed cases of the Yugo 1950's 8MM ammo at a now reasonable price of $250.00 to $300.00 for 900 rounds.
Note, Yugo 50's have are case failures which do nothing to a 98 action but can be serious to a semi auto 8MM like a Hakim, FN49 or G/K43.
I have had a couple such failures in 98 action Mausers and you know it occurred because the smoke vents back through the bolt but doesn't even affect the shot placement.
This ammo sometimes requires changing the firing pin spring (In German K98ks not Yugo 98 guns) because of the extra hard MG primer, easily done and about $10.00 for a Wolff Blitzschnell 22pound spring.

The gun with the most ammo available right now is the Nagant a decent albeit mediocre rifle, yes, but with a good bore that 29 inch barrel is almost always very accurate (The Finnish re-barreled with Tikka or Sako barrels are very impressive)
The 38 and 44 kick, a good butt pad is ideal for those
The best ammo (aside from the Russian sniper ammo, all gone now) is the Czech 147gr silver tip. Again, buy the rifle you can find a large amount of ammo for.

Do not, I repeat, do not buy a rifle and a box of ammo and assume you will always be able to get ammo.
There is not only little available but one must consider ammo importation being banned as a possibility.

Some of the nicest rifles for smoothness and accuracy are the 6.5 Swede Mauser and some of the South American 7X57, 7MM Mauser (check bores many are bad a good one is very accurate)
In both cases ammo is all but gone and you will pay a buck a round or more to shoot them with commercial ammo.
The excellent 1909 Argentine was mentioned and it is nice but 7.65X53 ammo is not available although Privi Partisan is importing some as commercial re-loadable ammo.
The Swiss rifles are nice but the ammo very expensive and harder to find likely soon gone

Classic Arms has some Yugo 24/47 98 Mausers at a decent price and Wideners has Yugo 1950's ammo in 900 round sealed cases.
Buy a 24/47 and 3 cases and you should be near $1,000.00 with 2700 rounds of sure fire take any game go through any armor ammo that will last longer than you will live.

Wulfmann

omega
November 16, 2009, 02:38 PM
I can't recall when MILSURP mail order was banned (mid 60's?) but either a M1 carbine or a 1911 A1 could be had for around $17, in excellent or good condition, some still in grease and the government cardboard boxes. Those were the days.

darkgael
November 16, 2009, 05:26 PM
The old critique about WWI rifles - the Mauser, the Lee Enfield and the Springfield 1903 was that the Germans made the best hunting rifle, the Americans made the best target rifle and the British made the best battle rifle.
I concur. It really depends on the use.
In any case, some fine firearms were left out of that consideration. The Russian Mosin has only recently been "discovered" by many shooters; it's a great shooter. The Swiss K31 - neutrality kept it away from the war zone - probably a good thing for anyone who'd have been on the receiving end.
Wasn't George Patton's comment about the M1 that it was the best battle implement ever devised?
My own choice was and is the Springfield 1903. It was the rifle that I shot my first MOA group with. That old ladder sight...love it.
Pete

38superhero
November 16, 2009, 05:44 PM
M-44, spanish mauser in .308

darkgael
November 16, 2009, 09:05 PM
when MILSURP mail order was banned (mid 60's?)

Right after JFK was shot with a mail order rifle.
Pete

Wrothgar
November 17, 2009, 12:05 AM
I've had no problem getting ammo for my Kar98; in fact, Remington still makes hunting ammo for it. Plenty accurate and a nice, big fat round.

Volucris
November 17, 2009, 02:58 AM
I'll take a Yugo SKS for general purpose and a K31 for distance.

Chris_B
November 17, 2009, 07:12 PM
I've heard this several times now, and have decided to finally throw out the red review flag. Why is a bolt-action rifle inherently more accurate than a semi-auto? As I see it, it's more the type of rifle (carbine, short-range, etc.) and caliber that each employ, rather than the actual action itself determining accuracy. Once the round is chambered, how does the action used to chamber the round have any impact on accuracy?

The 'stronger' part I'll accept because of the semi's moving bolt versus a manual bolt having multiple locking lugs.

Pardon me, but I said it has the potential.

w_houle
November 17, 2009, 07:28 PM
Right after JFK was shot with a mail order rifle.
Pete
Oh yeah, speaking of the Mannlicher Carcano rifle: Has to be one of the most underrated milsurp rifles, right after Arisaka rifles.

smleno1mkIII
November 17, 2009, 08:45 PM
You are so right many people think the carcano is junk but I know better the main problem is almost nobody makes ammo right for it any more, the bullets loaded in factory rounds for the carcano are usually .264 of an inch but the carcano bore is .268 to .269 of an inch that means the bullet they load are 4 or 5 hundreth's to small no wonder:rolleyes: they couldn't hit the broadside of a barn :D

tiecuando
November 17, 2009, 09:02 PM
That's a matter of opinion, so mine is that a Mauser 98k in usable condition is the best.

jsmaye
November 18, 2009, 08:45 AM
Pardon me, but I said it has the potential.

I wasn't challenging you as much as I was asking the the whole forum - I've heard it several times here and was curious.

zombieslayer
November 19, 2009, 07:50 AM
I always heard that the Finnish mosin nagants were the best. I just found an awesome deal on one and pounced. Its an m39 and its a real sweet shooter.

sliverflinger
November 21, 2009, 01:24 AM
I guess I might as well chime in with my favorite. The swedish mauser is a nice rifle in a great caliber. The moisen nagant is just about as GI proof as you can get. The finns are upgraded MN's.Mausers in general are great guns. I own 20 of them, and don't have a german made one yet.K31's are a piece of art. If youcan find one in good shape, that is in your range, grab it and hold on. The rifle that went for $100 a year ago is $250/300 now.Just do a lot of research ,and then buy the best rifle you can afford.

sliverflinger
November 21, 2009, 01:25 AM
I guess I might as well chime in with my favorite. The swedish mauser is a nice rifle in a great caliber. The moisen nagant is just about as GI proof as you can get. The finns are upgraded MN's.Mausers in general are great guns. I own 20 of them, and don't have a german made one yet.K31's are a piece of art. If you can find one in good shape, that is in your range, grab it and hold on. The rifle that went for $100 a year ago is $250/300 now.Just do a lot of research ,and then buy the best rifle you can afford.

zombieslayer
November 21, 2009, 08:46 AM
The M39 I just found in the dusty bargain rack was $150 out the door with ammo! I looked online, and the same model and year and condition seem to sell for 300 and up, so I was glad I knew enough about the Finn model to snatch it up. I have an M44, and it's ok, but the M39 is now my favorite.

5whiskey
November 21, 2009, 09:22 AM
I've heard this several times now, and have decided to finally throw out the red review flag. Why is a bolt-action rifle inherently more accurate than a semi-auto? As I see it, it's more the type of rifle (carbine, short-range, etc.) and caliber that each employ, rather than the actual action itself determining accuracy. Once the round is chambered, how does the action used to chamber the round have any impact on accuracy?

JS, it really has to do with more moving parts and potential for variances in chambering/headspace patterns. You're right about the chambering of the round, but THE MAIN critical key to accuracy (other than the barrel) is chambering the round the exact same way every time.

A semi-auto design usually has to deal with variances in fitment of a gas piston into a gas block, much more mass moving during the cycling of the action, bolt fitment to a bolt carrier, it must feed reliably, etc. etc. Given the challenge of making a semi-auto reliable, many places where fitment tolerance could possibly degrade accuracy cannot be as tight as possible (therefore, as accurate as possible) because it could cause feeding issues under adverse conditions. This "play" can cause slight variances in how a round is chambered.

With the bolt action, however, you manually lock the bolt into place yourself. There are fewer moving parts, and fewer places where "loose" fitment tolerances could degrade accuracy. Really the ONLY places where fitment tolerance could degrade accuracy is consistent and equal seating on the locking lugs, and the headspace. You don't have to worry about moving mass, gas pistons seating the same way every time, fitment of bolts into bolt carriers, among other things.



In the end I wouldn't really say that a bolt action rifle has the potential to be more accurate. I think the more correct statement would be that it's MUCH MUCH easier to design an accurate bolt action than it is to design an accurate semi-auto.

madd trapper
November 21, 2009, 04:41 PM
I like all Military surplus firearms.

Cheapshooter
November 21, 2009, 06:50 PM
The best? M1 Garand hands down!!!
Best bang for the $$$ Mosen Nagant 91/30

hodaka
November 21, 2009, 06:57 PM
I've got a bunch. My favorite is an HRA Garand. A distant tie for 2nd between a Carl Gustoff 1914 96/38 and a 1943 03A3 Smith Corona, but I like nearly all of them. I never could warm up to the Russian and Chinese stuff, but I love the European and American stuff. Need to add a trapdoor Springfield and a Krag to my collection.

Ignition Override
November 23, 2009, 02:40 AM
Wulfmann described not only several rifle comparisons but the very sobering (even grim) surplus ammo situation very well, and in a complete 'nutshell'.

People who Now delay making the decision several months as to which milsurp gun to buy, could be wasting almost any opportunity to find really affordable ammo, if it is not already too late for certain calibers.
Let's count our blessings that the semi-auto AR, FN FAL, M-14, Garand etc are so popular.

HiBC
November 23, 2009, 05:21 AM
Precisely why the obvious choice is a Remington Rolling Block!!:-)

RiverBoy76
November 30, 2009, 11:07 PM
Best surplus rifle. It really depends on what you need it for. If you are looking for a beater rifle to keep in the pick up, the mosin nagant carbines are excellent. They are powerful, simple and as tough as a hammer and plenty of accuracy. For a plinker any sks should give you lots of cheap fun, its also a good deer rifle. The k-31 is a target rifle disguised as a battle rifle, same goes for the swedish mausers. But my personal favorite is the No 4 Enfield rifles, accurate enough, excellent irons, great trigger, reliable in the extreme and above all, lightning fast cock on closing action. It has taken game big and small for years in Africa and North America.

G-man 26
December 1, 2009, 12:38 AM
I passed on a Lee Enfield jungle carbine in .308 and am still kicking myself for it. I was a big fan of the Mosin Nagants, untill I got tired of cleaning them. I agree, they make a great truck gun with winchester ammo.

I don't know about "best", but my "favorite" is the M-1. I love the .30-06 in most platforms.

madcratebuilder
December 4, 2009, 08:37 AM
Best all around mil-surp I would say is the K31. M1/M1A for fire power, Lee Enfield makes a great hunting rifle, well take any NA game, The accuracy of the K312 can not be matched by any other mil-surp I have seen. It has the same ballistics as a .308/7.62. Only draw back is the six round mag.

skydiver3346
December 4, 2009, 09:16 AM
Well, I have owned and shot most of them in my adult life. However, just for the plain fun of it (and accuracy), its hard to beat the Swedish Mauser
(6.5x55).
For autos, the M1 Garand would be my pick.

P5 Guy
December 4, 2009, 10:55 AM
My personal favorite is the M1 Garand followed by the SMLE #4mk1.
The most economical I think is any of the Mosin Nagants but I prefer the carbines to the full length rifles.

Ignition Override
December 5, 2009, 09:47 PM
G-man 26:
If you decide to pursue a Lee-Enfield #5 "Jungle Carbine" in .303, you might find one at a gun show for $400 or so. My second #5 was listed for $350 at the Sept gun show in Memphis, and is in really good condition.
There are bits of surplus .303 ammo out there, but time will be spent looking for it. New Prvi ammo can be easily reloaded several times, from what I've read.

P5 Guy: The LE #4 is also my favorite.

As a classic, handy, lightweight and powerful rifle for its size, it is hard to beat the LE #5 among surplus bolt-action rifles. They have stopped charging grizzlies with four shots. As for milsurps, I've never read that any M-1 Carbine or old Russian SKS could do that.

5whiskey and Fellow Shooters:
Although there are huge heaps of x54R available, with other surplus calibers becoming much harder to find than what people observed a few years ago, won't this accelerate demand and price increases for the x54R ammo and such rifles (by far, the best surplus ammo/rifle deal), especially a year or two after economic growth becomes apparent and with far fewer home foreclosures?

Tikirocker
December 14, 2009, 10:23 AM
There is no best ... just what a person likes and gets on well with; I like my Enfields.

Tiki.

aarondhgraham
December 15, 2009, 05:26 PM
First place = K98 Mauser-built like a tank, accurate, powerful.
Second Place = British Lee Enfield-10 round mag, accurate, powerful enough.
Third place = M1 Carbine with a 30 round banana clip-great zombie rifle.

Last place = 7.7 mm Japanese-they just aren't good rifles.
Worst place = 6.5 Italian Carcano Carbine-absolutely laughable.

Personal favorite for esthetics? = 30-40 Krag, How can ya not fall in love with that side load trap door?

I have owned or still own all of the above and more,,,
My 8mm and .303 were the deer getters of my sordid youth,,,
Alden's catalog was where I mail ordered almost every rifle from the WW's.

The 8mm was a present from my grandfather,,,
That's why I still one and use it today.

gyvel
December 15, 2009, 08:31 PM
Whichever one you can still get surplus ammunition for.

There are a lot of Swedish Mausers in the back of the rack because the ammo has mostly been shot up. Looks like the Swiss and Mausers are headed that way fast.

Exactly; And the same thing is going to happen sooner or later to all the Mosin Nagants and Tokarevs and CZ52s when the supply of surplus ammo starts to dry up.

Tikirocker
December 16, 2009, 01:13 AM
Whichever one you can still get surplus ammunition for.

.303 Brit surplus has pretty much all but dried up - if anybody really cares about accuracy and performance ( Not just plinking ) then hand loading is the only way to go. What is left of the .303 surplus stuff is pretty poor overall and corrosive - the benefits are essentially nil. There is still plenty of commercial .303 out there also ... I just roll my own these days - to me it's well worth it.

Tiki.

tater134
December 16, 2009, 07:21 PM
Last place = 7.7 mm Japanese-they just aren't good rifles.
Worst place = 6.5 Italian Carcano Carbine-absolutely laughable.


Those are two pretty ridiculous statements.The Arisaka 99s have the strongest action out of all the WW2 bolt actions according to blow up tests done after the war.The T99 held up better than the 03 Springfield and the mauser during the tests.All the T99's Ive encountered including "last ditch" models are very accurate.It may be true that the fit and finish arent as good as many other bolt actions of the era but as far as durability and accuracy go the Arisaka's are near the top of my list.

The Carcano if used with proper ammunition is capable of great accuracy and the 6.5 is a good round.The only Carcano Ive had a bad experiance with was a cut down long rifle but that was due to the shortening of the barrel which was very detrimental to accuracy because Carcano rifles were made with gain twist rifling.

aarondhgraham
December 17, 2009, 03:12 PM
I've owned three Japanese rifles (two in 7.7 and one in 6.5),,,
Even with with the proper milsurp ammunition,,,
they were marginal performers at best.

I and a friend both bought Carcano carbines,,,
As I stated before, their performance was laughable.

This opinion isn't due to what I have read somewhere,,,
This is due to my experience with the rifles.

If your experience with these guns was different,,,
I laud your good fortune.

Aarond

johnwilliamson062
December 18, 2009, 11:40 AM
IMO, K31.

Everyone should own a MN @$75.


For a semi-auto the Garand has to win hands down.

Tamara
December 22, 2009, 09:48 PM
...my personal favorite is my no1 mkIII Lee Enfield...

With a screen name like that, who would have guessed? ;)

Putting aside the fact that "best" is an awfully vague term (best at what?), I'd say that the one I'd be most likely to want to carry on a two-way rifle range would be my Garand. If we're limited to manual repeaters, then I'd go with my No.4 Mk.2.

RamSlammer
December 23, 2009, 12:46 AM
M96 Swedish Mauser for me. I have a K31 and it's just as good, accurate, etc., but the Swede is perfection.

Gator_Weiss
December 23, 2009, 09:57 AM
You have to go a long way to beat the 98 rifle.

I have both German and Jugoslav. The Jugoslav is a heavier piece of wood with "just OK" machining. The German is excellent, and it hits right on the money with factory loads, or duplicated JS loads made on the loading bench.

If you are not going to load many rounds for these rifles, the little Lee Loader handkits will work just fine for you.

The 7.65 Argentine Mauser has some of the best steel and some of the best machining that Mauser ever did. Surplus Ammo is all but gone. Norma loads are way, way, over priced. So you have to handload your own. Cases are available. You can convert 30-06 cases, but sometimes the neck stock is a little bit thick in some of the 30-06 cases you find. Especially the military cases. Doesnt hurt to polish the neck it down on a lathe or drill press after re-forming the 30-06 case in your forming die. The 7.65 Argentine has a slightly thicker barrell wall than the other guns, and it may add to the accuracy of the gun.

I hate to see anyone chopping these guns into experimental dear rifles. If you feel you have to make an experimental rifle, then look for one already choopped. Dont chop a pristine piece.

Radionicist
December 23, 2009, 04:21 PM
Hard to beat a 1903A3 in my book:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v714/radionicist/1903a.jpg

I picked this one up this summer from the CMP. I was expecting a decent rifle with a dirty barrel, but got a beauty with a like new bore. It's a great shooter, and my favorite milsurp.

Keep an eye out for one - they show up for around $500 pretty often.

raftman
December 23, 2009, 04:48 PM
I and a friend both bought Carcano carbines,,,
As I stated before, their performance was laughable.


Yep. I've an old family friend that made attempts at using a sporterized Carcano for hunting. He's also used a Mosin 91/30, Yugo Mauser, and even a Steyer M95 for the same applications. The conclusion he came to is that it's probably the only rifle he's used that would be more effective if thrown rather than fired.

zfk55
December 24, 2009, 12:24 PM
How about the 7.5x55 Swiss cartridge that had no less than six (6) rifles designed around it??

The Schmidt Rubin 96/11
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/zfk3155/1911.jpg

The 1911sr
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/zfk3155/96-11.jpg

The k11
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/zfk3155/1911car.jpg

The k31
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/zfk3155/K31-1.jpg

The zfk55 Sniper
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/zfk3155/k3155full1-1.jpg

And the PE57 Selective.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/zfk3155/pe57_sm-1.jpg

All use the same cartridge and are inherently the single most accurate production military rifles ever produced.

ZFK55

Tamara
December 24, 2009, 12:37 PM
All use the same cartridge and are inherently the single most accurate production military rifles ever produced.

I have a 96/11 and a K.31; love 'em! Both are accurate, but neither is noticeably more so with commercial or surplus ammunition than my Finnish M.39 or my U.S. M1903 or my Ross Mk.II.

Maybe I'm just a lousy shot?

zfk55
December 24, 2009, 12:45 PM
Somehow I doubt you're a lousy shot.

zfk55

m1forme
December 24, 2009, 02:56 PM
What's the best Milsurp? I don't know. The question is too general. However I can tell you what Milsurp WW2 rifle really suprised me when I finally had a chance to fire one. It's a 7.7 Type 99 Arisaka. I had always heard that they were inaccurate and poorly made. That all changed now that I have one. It's a early WW2 vintage. The workmanship on this rifle is top notch. It handles well and the sights are a pleasure to use. As far as accuracy, it appears to be on par with any of my 1903's and 1903a3's which I consider to be some of the more accurate Milsurp rifles. The only downside to this rifle is the availability of ammo. Not a problem if you reload. The Arisaka probably got a bad rap at the end of WW2 when the last ditch rifles were being made.

orsogato
December 25, 2009, 01:54 AM
Best milsurp rifle? For shooting, Here are my rankings:

1. U.S. M1 Garand
2. U.S. M1903 and m1903a3 Springfield Rifle.
3. k98 mauser (lump all 98 mauser variants in here for shooting purposes)
4. Swiss K-31
5. Enfield No. 4 mk-1.

This is an "I'm gonna shoot the bbl out of the gun" list, not an I'm gonna collect it list. That list would be a lot different.

Wrothgar
December 29, 2009, 01:22 AM
Alright, I don't reload; is it even worth it to get a K31? Should I spend a bit more on a good Enfield, or should I get a good K31 now while they're about 100 bucks less than a comparable Enfield (and the K31 has the accessories!)

I don't buy guns unless I can shoot them, and if there's not going to be any ammo I can't shoot them. I don't want to reload and even if I did there's no room in my tiny apartment for the setup. Also, if ammo runs out for them, doesn't that bring their value down?

Also, are Finn Mosins generally considered "better" than the cheapo Ruskies going for 100 bucks nowadays?

Warlokke
December 29, 2009, 12:09 PM
Swedish Mauser and K31. Reloading makes them both great rifles, but commercial ammo is still around. I use them both for hunting and can find plenty of 6.5 x 55 for hunting; haven't looked for 7.5 Swiss in hunting rounds since I haven't used up my hunting reloads yet and I can still find GP11 at gun shows.

Grollen
January 3, 2010, 11:57 AM
K98
K31
SAFN49
Enfield n4 Mk 1

Ignition Override
January 5, 2010, 01:23 AM
Wrothgar:
Just curious whether you have handled both a K-31 and a LE #4, or used them?

Believe that there was some Prvi Swiss ammo at Saturday's gun show in Southaven MS (by Memphis), and several boxes of over-priced ($18/box) Prvi. .303: should have bought it. Might have seen both calibers of P. at some other gun show(s) in '09.

Wrothgar
January 5, 2010, 11:50 AM
I've handled plenty of LE in stores; just about any decent gun shop has surplus enfields. However, I've only ever handled one K31 and it was at a gun show; I liked both of them.

However, I ended up buying the K31 because it came with all its original accessories, matching, and I REALLY wanted that bayonet :-).

madcratebuilder
January 5, 2010, 12:26 PM
Alright, I don't reload; is it even worth it to get a K31? Should I spend a bit more on a good Enfield, or should I get a good K31 now while they're about 100 bucks less than a comparable Enfield (and the K31 has the accessories!)

You can find GP11 surp ammo for the K-31 for 40-45 cents a round. You can not find Enfield ammo even close to that. While the K-31's may have a beaver chewed stock(there's a reason) the metal finish and over all build quality is superior to the LE's.

My LE collection is fairly complete and I'm just getting started on the K-31's. They are really a fantastic rifle, maybe the best bargain out there.

gandog56
January 5, 2010, 01:03 PM
Pretty much a dead heat between my K98 and my Mosin Nagant M39 in accuracy. But the Mosin ammo is a bit cheaper.

Wrothgar
January 5, 2010, 01:17 PM
yeah, the surplus ammo is what I ended up buying, and it was cheaper per round than the Wolf stuff, but I had to buy it in a 60 round pack (10 magazines full, that's pretty good!). I'll have to keep buying that as much as I can find it, it would be nice to have some of that piled up, its cheaper than any of my other surplus rifle ammo.

7shooter
January 10, 2010, 05:51 PM
For getting everyone's attention at the range there is nothing like a Steyr M-95 Carbine. Finnish M-39, K-31, Garands, I love them all.

m1thumb
January 17, 2010, 05:03 PM
Personal favorite is the mauser. There is a reason the Germans kicked butt in WW2. They had a sweet rifle.

KEN K
January 19, 2010, 02:51 AM
Tater134 I'm with you. I have 8mm Mauser Mosin Nagant and an Arisaka 99. The Arisaka is the most accurate of my three and by far my favorite. Iv'e taken deer from 15 to 220 yards with it and even buffalo at around 150 yds. that one took two shots, the second one to the brain, everything else is one shot one kill. I did some work on it as it was bubbaed when I got it.

majortoo
February 16, 2010, 06:39 PM
Concur with all the comments about the available ammunition; why buy what you can't shoot?

Regarding the Mosin Nagant, I seem to recall in my fuzzy old brain that the Russian Olympic team used them in the winter Olympics back in the sixties for the Winter Biathlon. That is the event where you ski cross country and stop to take target shots from time to time. In those days, the rules required a real .30 cal. or 7.62 rifle at long ranges. Now we just use .22 rifles at short range, which makes the site selection and preparation much simpler! As I recall, the Russians took the gold medal using the Mosin Nagant. If you like more material about this great rifle, see the film, "Enemy at the Gate". It is based on the true story of a Russian sniper during WWII. Very powerful stuff, and not recommended for the faint of heart.

Ignition Override
February 18, 2010, 08:24 PM
m1thumb:

Quite true about the German Wehrmacht und Luftwaffe, but there is a bit more to it (as you realize)-at least their neighbors' vulnerability to their surprising offensives at the first of the war:

Their neighboring countries seem to have been quite ignorant of the powerful potential of Blitzkrieg warfare, with the motivations of the combination of the 1) ancient German fear of encirclement, 2) the smoldering humiliations prompted by the WW1 Versailles Treaty's vast crippling financial reparations plus the "stab in the back" ("der Dolchstoss") legend and 3) poverty and sense of future chaos, worsened much more by the 1929 Great Depression etc.
The Germans' deep insecurity generally began as a result of the apocalypse of the Thirty Years' War in 1618-1648.

Europe in general could not stomach the thought of any more war after the many millions of soldiers' deaths in WW1. Check the unbelievable deaths in less than a week at Paeschendaele, Belgium-just one battlefield.

The German and Japanese military branches were open to lessons learned from our air force demonstrations in the 20s and 30s which the US military seemed not to care about, as the Army Air Corps was an 'upstart' branch, i.e. Gen. Billy Mitchell. Lessons taught by us helped lead to our enemies' Blitzkrieg.

Erfurter1937
February 23, 2010, 10:55 AM
FN 1949 The Best of the Lot.

ropencut
February 25, 2010, 12:51 PM
I have a1917 enfield that I really like. 125 gr. nosler bullets,67.5 gr.s varget, and it will shoot sub moa. just bought a swedish mauser carbine for my 11 yr old son, we both like it, working on loads for it.

Alaska
February 25, 2010, 06:20 PM
I have an arisaka but it is a "last ditch" rifle and should not be fired.
I love my R.I. 1903 and Garands.

UpandAtIt
February 25, 2010, 06:33 PM
I have many Mil-Surps, but nothing I have outshoots my K31, truly an amazing firearm> I see the prices on them going up, I just may grab two more for futures sake.

SigP6Carry
February 25, 2010, 10:01 PM
Tater134 I'm with you. I have 8mm Mauser Mosin Nagant and an Arisaka 99.
Wait, wait, wait... I've never seen a Mosin in 8mm. How'd that happen?

I have an arisaka but it is a "last ditch" rifle and should not be fired.
I love my R.I. 1903 and Garands.
Actually, that's just a rumor about the Arisakas. If you look around, you'll find that the "Last Ditch" models are perfectly capable of being fired and do quite well. The "Last Ditch" status doesn't refer to the gun's inherent safety, but rather the fit and finish of the gun.

gyvel
February 28, 2010, 03:15 PM
From a practial point of view, the best milsurp rifle to get is the one that you can get ammo for and will be able to get ammo for in the future. having said that, the best choice (strictly from a practical point of view, that is) would be something in 8mm Mauser.

Joe-R
February 28, 2010, 11:56 PM
money no object M1A low budget SMLE Lee enfield in 7.62MM nato

TX Hunter
March 1, 2010, 10:18 PM
I dont know how to post on this board, but someone said which ever one you can still get Surpluss Ammo For.
If thats the case It would have to be anything chambered for 7.62x39 Its the most commonly available Surplus Round going, next to the 7.62x51 Nato(308) and the 5.56MM (223)
Myself if it gets down to those three, I will probably reload, or get a Mauser rebarreled for 308 and keep shootin!!:D

jsmaye
March 2, 2010, 08:51 AM
There is still quite a bit of surplus 7.62x54R and 8mm around. We seem to be on the tail end of .303 and 7.5x55, and forget about 7.92x56R - there are are probably more rifles left in that caliber than there are rounds for it. I can't speak for 6.5mm or 7mm, or anything Carcano or Arisaka, but I suspect it's all dried up, too

Ignition Override
March 3, 2010, 02:47 AM
TX Hunter:

Is the 7.62x39 still considered mostly a surplus round, with so much produced in good old Russia?
I don't mean to be picky, just curious about peoples' views. Maybe it is, if so much corrosive Yugo ammo is years old.

Shooting the SKS and Mini 30 never gets old.

Other than MN 7.62x54R ammo, 8mm Mauser seems the way to go, and really nice Yugos are readily available. The surplus 8mm is a lot cheaper than .308.

billfrombyron
March 4, 2010, 07:49 AM
I'm guessing this is subjective to the people who like what over what, so I will just list my favorites as the Best Of Mil Surp in no particular order other than I like em. My 2 favorites on the list are Number 1 and 13 that are in my collection. Unless noted in brackets most of them reside in my collection squirreled away until I finish my contract.

My favorites:

1)The extremely under appreciated VZ 52 SHE
[Preferred rifle of Castro and the Cuban revolution. It has been supposed that if the Czech's hadn't rearmed with the 52 SHE, then Israel wouldn't have had many guns since they sold off quite a few Mausers to the Israels during their war of independence. It was also used in Grenada which is where my rifle came from. Caliber is the Oh so popular 7.62X45mm. Yep mine has been converted to fire X39 somehow. There is no bushing insert BTW for conversion, I think it was milled. It was done before my time, No its not a 57 conversion that was unmarked.]

2) K31

3) Yugo Mauser in 8mm

4) Mosin, any.

5) Makarov

6) Swedish Mauser

7) M1 garand[someday after all others are acquired on the list]

8)Hakim rifle in 8mm OR rashid in 7.62X39[Let me know if one if for sale in your collection!!!!!!)(Prefer Hakim]

9) FN-49 any caliber [see above statement]

10)Tokarav pistol TT-33 [picking up in May-June time-frame]

11) SKS

12) VZ 58 rifle [See 8 and 9 in brackets]

13) No4 Mk2 Enfield

14) PPSH [Anyone making semi auto versions?]

15) SVT 38 OR SVT 40 [PLEASE let me know if you have a good shooter for sale]

Truth be told they are just about all of em are pretty cool

When I get back stateside I'm going on a Mil-surp binge...

-Bill

earlthegoat2
March 4, 2010, 07:58 AM
Though I am just getting into the MilSurp thing I did my research and bought what I believe to be at least one of the top five MilSurps. That being a BSA built No. 4 Mk. 1.

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll66/earlthegoat2/SDC11633.jpg

I have put about 16 rounds through it already and am impressed with the practical accuracy of the aperture sights.

I would like a Jungle carbine in the future and maybe even a Lee Speed Sporter.

I think the next best options are once again, personal preference. Springfield 1903s, Swedish Mausers, Argentine Mausers, Spanish Mausers, other Lee Enfields.

I also personally like 7x57 VZ-24s.

gyvel
March 5, 2010, 02:46 AM
If thats the case It would have to be anything chambered for 7.62x39 Its the most commonly available Surplus Round going, next to the 7.62x51 Nato(308) and the 5.56MM (223)

As one of the other posters pointed out, 7.62x39 surplus ammo is coming from the former Iron Curtain countries. Eventually, it will dry up, like all other surplus ammo.

American manufacturers have loaded 8mm Mauser for years and, while it may not be a cheap surplus round, it will be available. Some American manufacturers have finally gotten on the bandwagon and have started loading 7.62x39 as well, so that will more than likely be available for a while, too.

Most of your milsurp calibres will still be available as sporting rounds, but as cheap surplus, not so much.

Ignition Override
March 15, 2010, 12:32 PM
gryvel:

It might not appear to be a cheap surplus round, but 8mm surplus ammo from former Yugoslavia is mostly listed at .25/round.

I ordered some from Ammoman four weeks ago, and their price for 900 rds. including shipping, just dropped from $229 to $200! :)

What would cause such a drop, other than the economy?

group17
March 17, 2010, 10:16 AM
8mm Mauser 98K
303 Lee Enfield mk 4

madcratebuilder
March 19, 2010, 10:20 AM
I ordered some from Ammoman four weeks ago, and their price for 900 rds. including shipping, just dropped from $229 to $200!

What would cause such a drop, other than the economy?

50% fail to fire.

44 AMP
March 19, 2010, 12:53 PM
When I was a kid, we "collected" milsurp rifles, by the barrel full! The "best " ones were the ones easiest to turn from heavy, clunky, ugly GI war clubs into sleek, svelte sporters, in more effective and efficient calibers.

Today, we have collectors/shooters who are much more interested in those rifles in original condition than they are in the sporterised ones. And, we have two basic types of milsurp "collectors". Those who want the rifles for their historical place as firearms of a particular period, and those who want them as cheap shooters.

Well, wake up and smell the cosmoline, that cheap ammo won't be around forever, or even, much longer. We are at the end of the era. Even the Russian rounds will eventually be gone, at least as far as cheap, case lots are concerned. The .303 and 8mm stuff is nearly gone, and most of what remains is the "crap" ammo that nobody would buy before. Also, besides dwindling stocks, the current political climate abroad (thanks so much, UN) means that a lot of what is still left will not be sold (facilitating "arms trafficing), but will be destroyed, instead. SO, get you some dies, and a supply of good brass, if you want to keep on shooting these old veterans, at a reasonable cost!

I have a number of milsurps, and do enjoy shooting them, but I don't bother with surplus ammo. Sure, its cheap, but its often dirty, accuracy is spotty, its nearly all corrosive (except for US stuff, and some of that is), and except for US stuff(again) the cases are useless after firing!

I Reload for .30-06, .308, .303, 8mm, 7.7mm, 6.5mm, 7.62x54R, and a couple dozen civilian calibers as well. Bredan brass is a waste to me, as the low price simply doesn't balance against the utility of being able to reload the cases, for me. And then there is the whole pain of corrosive primers, and cleaning. But, if it works for you, enjoy. You don't have me competing against you for the last cases of 8mm or whatever from third world countries.

My collection includes M1, M1A (not really a milsurp, but as close to an M14 as I can get) FAL (again, as close as I can get), Moisin Nagant 91/30, M38, SMLEs (3 and 4, and one of the .308s), T99 Arisakas, Kar 98s, Vz 24, Swede M 96, Tokarev SVT 40 (one nobody mentioned before, but maybe one of the best, for a civilian to own), Springfields, 1917Enfield, and a few others I can't recall right now. The best? Real hard to define. All depends on your critieria.

Choose one to have to fight with? I'd pick my M1A. But thats just me.;)

madcratebuilder
March 20, 2010, 06:55 AM
When I was a kid, we "collected" milsurp rifles, by the barrel full! The "best " ones were the ones easiest to turn from heavy, clunky, ugly GI war clubs into sleek, svelte sporters, in more effective and efficient calibers.

Today, we have collectors/shooters who are much more interested in those rifles in original condition than they are in the sporterised ones. And, we have two basic types of milsurp "collectors". Those who want the rifles for their historical place as firearms of a particular period, and those who want them as cheap shooters.

Well, wake up and smell the cosmoline, that cheap ammo won't be around forever, or even, much longer. We are at the end of the era. Even the Russian rounds will eventually be gone, at least as far as cheap, case lots are concerned. The .303 and 8mm stuff is nearly gone, and most of what remains is the "crap" ammo that nobody would buy before. Also, besides dwindling stocks, the current political climate abroad (thanks so much, UN) means that a lot of what is still left will not be sold (facilitating "arms trafficing), but will be destroyed, instead. SO, get you some dies, and a supply of good brass, if you want to keep on shooting these old veterans, at a reasonable cost!

+1

'Good' mil-surp ammo is a thing of the past with one exception. You can still get GP11 for the Swiss K-31. This is match grade ammo. I have not been able to find reliable 8mm ammo so I need to start a new reload caliber. .303 has not been available for some time as an affordable ammo.

It may not be long before there are no more imported surplus fire arms. I'm sure that's on the agenda in DC.

southernmaninla
March 24, 2010, 07:15 AM
M1 Garand
Swedish Mauser

1911rocks
March 24, 2010, 07:42 AM
CZ VZ58. Cheap to feed, very reliable, far more accurate, much lighter than an AK, very well made.

Adirondack
March 24, 2010, 06:46 PM
I think General George Patton put it best:

"In my opinion, the M1 rifle is the greatest battle implement ever devised"
- General George S. Patton, Jr.

raftman
March 24, 2010, 08:57 PM
I'd bet he was sort of obligated to say that. Certainly wouldn't have done much for morale if he said the same of something like the StG-44.

Adirondack
March 24, 2010, 09:13 PM
I'd bet he was sort of obligated to say that. Certainly wouldn't have done much for morale if he said the same of something like the StG-44.

Good point.

Lavid2002
March 24, 2010, 09:20 PM
1903 : )

jsmaye
March 25, 2010, 08:00 AM
I'd bet he was sort of obligated to say that. Certainly wouldn't have done much for morale if he said the same of something like the StG-44.

And since he died in 1945, his opinion is pretty much frozen at that point in time.

TommyW
March 25, 2010, 03:55 PM
Boy, your gonna get a lot of opinions on that one.

The Swiss K-31 is one of the most accurate weapons to come out of the WWII era. If the K-31 was built today....you could not afford one. Mosins, any 91/59 you can find...a great carbine, and, very accurate as well. Also, a nice clean 1939 Tula 91/30. It's accurate and will reach out a bit further than the 91/59. Of course, all the above, IMHO....

Flipper 56
March 26, 2010, 04:13 AM
I'm kinda partial to the Swedish Mausers. I have an M96 and an M38. Sweet shooting guns over a hundred years old. I do however have a Finnish Mosin-Nagant that out shoots both of them.:cool:

Ignition Override
April 3, 2010, 11:40 PM
A friend who has tried out most of his milsurp collection told me this week that his K-31's groups were the best he's ever had, and helped to compensate for his skill level, which is actually pretty good.

He used Swiss ammo straight from the boxes of "Patronen".

44AMP: Could some of the UN's idiotic agendas be reversed in the future (by a GOP President or Congress) if they achieve more of what they want?
Maybe Russian, Serbia and several others can remain steadfast....

madcratebuilder
April 4, 2010, 09:02 AM
I'm picking up my second 8mm yugo today, a M48A. Comes with over 300 rounds of yugo ammo, current owner claims no FTF's. The plan is the shoot it and my M48 this afternoon.
Maybe take the K31's along and burn up some gp11.

Ignition Override
April 5, 2010, 08:22 PM
madcratebuilder:

Did you shoot it?

madcratebuilder
April 6, 2010, 06:48 AM
I was rained out, freak storm came through, blew down power lines and made a general mess of the afternoon. I didn't get power back until around midnight.

iac
April 6, 2010, 09:34 PM
I'ld go with the SKS for overall inexpensive / fun to shoot rifle

Ignition Override
April 7, 2010, 12:31 AM
earlthegoat2:

A really young guy who helps develop the fully-automatic Saiga 12 (Alliance Armament) tried out my LE #5 "Jungle Carbine" days ago.
From 50 yards with the iron sights following two starting shots, he got four or five shots within a 2" x 3" pattern, on the upper edge of the black plastic's bullseye. Wish I could do that one day.

iac: :) "Roger that", for economical semi-auto milsurp rifle fun, the SKS.

kodiakbeer
April 13, 2010, 06:49 PM
No criteria here for the term "best", so I'm going with most fun to shoot - Garand!

As for bolt guns, I'd have to go with the large ring Mauser simply because no other bolt action is as smooth to operate. They are surprising fast to shoot if you actually know how to shoot a bolt action.

Off subject, but if watching people at the range is any indication, then 95% of shooters don't know how to operate a bolt gun. Dad was a WWII vet, that enlisted in 39 when they were still training with Springfields. He taught me how to shoot.

The next time you're shooting a bolt action (of any kind), do NOT remove your cheek from the stock or lose your sight picture after each shot. Just snap your hand back and work the bolt while keeping your sight picture. You'll be amazed at how quickly you can shoot if you don't have to regain your sight picture after each shot. The cock-on-opening mechanism of the Mauser facilitates this and makes it faster and more accurate to shoot. When you first try it, you're afraid the bolt will hit you in the eye, but it won't if you've got a proper cheek weld.

I've never shot a Springfield, but I suspect (since it's such a close copy of the Mauser) that it's also fast to shoot. I have shot Swedes and Enfields and because of the force required to cock as the bolt slides forward, it makes accurate follow-up shots tougher.

my two cents....

Ignition Override
April 13, 2010, 10:36 PM
As a lefty, I just can't figure out how to do it.

jeepstrapped
April 13, 2010, 10:43 PM
The next time you're shooting a bolt action (of any kind), do NOT remove your cheek from the stock or lose your sight picture after each shot. Just snap your hand back and work the bolt while keeping your sight picture. You'll be amazed at how quickly you can shoot if you don't have to regain your sight picture after each shot. The cock-on-opening mechanism of the Mauser facilitates this and makes it faster and more accurate to shoot. When you first try it, you're afraid the bolt will hit you in the eye, but it won't if you've got a proper cheek weld.

My Dad said the same thing to me when I was learning to shoot. He learned it from his Dad and his Uncles. :)

Forgot to add, that's how I shoot my mosin 91/30. It isn't the 303 I grew up with, but it is more accurate; at least it seems that way now, a few decades later.

jsmaye
April 14, 2010, 09:47 AM
The cock-on-opening mechanism of the Mauser facilitates this and makes it faster and more accurate to shoot. When you first try it, you're afraid the bolt will hit you in the eye, but it won't if you've got a proper cheek weld.

I've never shot a Springfield, but I suspect (since it's such a close copy of the Mauser) that it's also fast to shoot. I have shot Swedes and Enfields and because of the force required to cock as the bolt slides forward, it makes accurate follow-up shots tougher.

Up until now I've been hearing just the opposite - that the cock-on-closing operation of the Enfield makes it quicker to cycle. So much quicker that, as anecdotally reported, Germans storming British troops thought they were facing semi-auto fire when it was only Enfields.

kodiakbeer
April 14, 2010, 11:56 AM
Up until now I've been hearing just the opposite - that the cock-on-closing operation of the Enfield makes it quicker to cycle. So much quicker that, as anecdotally reported, Germans storming British troops thought they were facing semi-auto fire when it was only Enfields.

My experience is that the force needed to drive that bolt forward in the cocking motion of an Enfield or small ring Mauser makes you lose your sight picture. Perhaps practice can overcome that, but I don't see how.

With the Mauser 98, you slap the bolt upward (cocking it) while the rifle is still in recoil, then the rear and forward motion is smooth and effortless, so by the time you lock the bolt again, you're on target and ready to shoot.

In either case, most people do it wrong. Films are even worse - even otherwise accurate films where they've done the homework to have the right arms, gear, etc, usually get this wrong. They show soldiers lifting their heads while they work the bolt - sometimes they even take the stock off their shoulders to work the bolt.

It's not exactly a pet peeve, but those of us with bolt guns should all learn how to do this. Perhaps in another generation, this art will be forgotten and nobody will know how to shoot a bolt gun with both speed and accuracy.

kodiakbeer
April 14, 2010, 12:37 PM
Interesting!

Two "experts" purporting to show you how to speed-shoot a bolt action:

WRONG!: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR3C2J81SL4

RIGHT!: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXZL83sAWLA&feature=related

kodiakbeer
April 14, 2010, 01:16 PM
Up until now I've been hearing just the opposite - that the cock-on-closing operation of the Enfield makes it quicker to cycle. So much quicker that, as anecdotally reported, Germans storming British troops thought they were facing semi-auto fire when it was only Enfields.

There's no reason a cock-on-closing rifle like the Enfield can't be shot very quickly. My point is more about keeping your sight picture while cocking, particularly during that forward motion just before your next shot is fired. I'm talking about quick and accurate fire, not just speed.

I suspect that old story about the rapid fire of the Enfield fooling the Germans may be apocryphal, but if true it's probably due to the ten round capacity of the Enfield. That large capacity gave the British the ability to put a lot more rounds downrange in a given time since they didn't have to stop and reload as often. All things considered, I think I'd rather make a frontal assault on a company of men armed with Mausers rather than Enfields.

jsmaye
April 15, 2010, 07:59 AM
Films are even worse - even otherwise accurate films where they've done the homework to have the right arms, gear, etc, usually get this wrong. They show soldiers lifting their heads while they work the bolt - sometimes they even take the stock off their shoulders to work the bolt.

Guns in Hollywood don't recoil or heat up either. One can carry a .50 BAR and shoot it fully automatic under one's arm. Bad guys only hit the target when it's plot-convenient. And the sound of the cases hitting the ground is as loud as the shot itself.:rolleyes:

SigP6Carry
April 15, 2010, 11:39 AM
Fifty BAR? You mean a Ma Duece? The BAR was .30-06.

jsmaye
April 15, 2010, 01:27 PM
You got me - thought BMG, typed BAR...:rolleyes: