What kind of 38 Special bullet did Jack Ruby use?

[DG45]

I was just reading another thread on this forum in which a video was shown of a store clerk dropping a robber with a 38 Special. Somebody commented that the robber "did the Lee Harvey curl" which was a reference to the way Lee Harvey Oswald went down like a sack of potatoes and curled up and died when Jack Ruby shot him in 1963. Thats what happened on this video I just saw too. It really was a lot like the Oswald shooting in 1963. The robber went down immediately just like Oswald did back then.

I know that Jack Ruby used a 38 Special snub-nosed revolver when he put Oswald down for the long count in 1963, but as far as I know, no one ever reported what type or weight bullet he used. I've always wondered if it was just a standard velocity 158 grain LRN (which was the normal everyday load for just about everybody back then). Whatever it was, it did enormous damage to Oswald according to the reports of the time. Anybody know for sure what kind of bullet was? All I remember for sure is that it was one impressive advertisment for the stopping power of an ordinary 38 Special Revolver - and this latest video is too.

[T. O'Heir]

"...a standard velocity 158 grain LRN..." Most likely. Not much else available in 1963. The distance had a lot to do with it.
"...Anybody know for sure what kind of bullet was?..." Nope. Never published as I recall.
"...a 38 Special snub-nosed revolver..." Colt Cobra at under 2 feet. Wouldn't matter what bullet.

[Chesster]

Best I recall, most .38 factory ammo before the JHP were WC, or 158/200gr RNL.

[Webleymkv]

If I had to guess, I'd say either 158grn LRN or 148grn HBWC.

[Old Grump]

Dallas Police dept property receipt shows that Ruby was carrying a set of brass knuckles, a 38 caliber revolver, 5 rounds of 38 spcl ammunition and one 38 spcl case and one slug, I am presuming the one used to kill Lee Harvey Oswald. No further identification was offered.
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/pdf/WH25_CE_2417.pdf

However in the bank money bag he carried there was a box of ammunition marked S&W 38 spcl and had lead bullets. Just a wild guess but they probably would have been 158 gr LRN. One round in the box had a copper jacketed bullet and was marked WW. I cannot reference this because it was something I read a while back and I can't remember the source.

The gun Ruby used was purchased by a policeman friend of his because police didn't pay tax on their weapons. If he got his ammunition through them then they could have been anything. It was a time of transition for the Dallas police force back then.

[zombieslayer]

Just find out what the CIA was loading back in the 60's!:D

[Chesster]

WW marketed a copperwashed 158gr RN called "Lubaloy" I believe back then. This was Oswald's round of choice.

http://www.kenrahn.com/Marsh/HSCA/TIPPITMU.TXT

[gglass]

Zombieslayer:
Just find out what the CIA was loading back in the 60's!

You do realize that there are black choppers hovering over your home at this moment, don't you?

Chesster:
WW marketed a copperwashed 158gr RN called "Lubaloy" I believe back then. This was Oswald's round of choice.

Just so everyone can see the .38 Specials from a day and age when people knew that the .38 could actually kill.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=142194546

[Dave T]

Just so everyone can see the .38 Specials from a day and age when people knew that the .38 could actually kill.

Don't confuse lethality with stopping. Most everyone knows a 38 Special will kill. So will a 22 LR. The problem with the standard 158g RNL 38 Spl round was that it only "stopped" it's intended target about 50% of the time. Some forget that that means it does stop 50% of the time. Oswald and the video you referred to are classic examples of when it worked well.

Dave

[zombieslayer]

I can hear a blackhawk in the distance!!:eek: hahahaha

For a surplus catalog gun, Oswalds "magic bullet" sure seemed to be in impeccable shape for having tumbled through so much flesh and bone and made multiple wounds on the 2 victims. LOL I promise I'm not trying to get this thread locked down or cause any chaos, I've been interested in the weapons and ballistics of this event for some time now. Dang it! There are men in suits at the door!!!!!!!!

[kmrcstintn]

my best guess(es) about the ammunition used ---

:confused::confused::confused:

3 loads come to mind based upon the era and availability:

158gr lead round nose; 148gr lead wadcutter; 130gr full metal jacket (a standard issue load for air force scurity personnel using .38 spl revolvers)

[bob.a]

Speculating without a grain of evidence or hard info, wonder if these two guys went down so quickly because they were hit in the pelvis? A broken pelvis would cause an immediate collapse as the body's support structure failed.

Anyone have access to autopsy results on Oswald?

[FlyFish]

Anyone have access to autopsy results on Oswald?

It's generally available on the 'net, along with autopsy photos. The report indicates he was shot in the chest (though the film makes it look more abdominal), so broken pelvis is unlikely.

[zombieslayer]

Idk... those old autopsy photos... the man who did jfk's autopsy swore up and down that the Warren Commission's photos were NOT the original autopsy photos as performed by him. OMG>>> the choppers are buzzing overhead again!!!!!!!!

[Old Grump]

At 11:21 am Sunday, November 24, 1963, while he was handcuffed to Detective Leavelle and as he was about to be taken to the Dallas County Jail, Oswald was shot and fatally wounded before live television cameras in the basement of Dallas Police Headquarters by Jack Ruby, a Dallas nightclub operator who said that he had been distraught over the Kennedy assassination.

Unconscious, Oswald was put into an ambulance and rushed to Parkland Memorial Hospital, the same hospital where President Kennedy had died two days earlier. Doctors operated on Oswald, but Ruby's single bullet had severed major abdominal blood vessels, and the doctors were unable to repair the massive trauma. Oswald was pronounced dead at 1:07 pm. After a full autopsy, Oswald's body[116] was returned to his family. Oswald's grave is in Rose Hill Memorial Burial Park in Fort Worth.[117][118] The original tombstone, which included Oswald's full name and dates of birth and death, was stolen; today, the grave is marked by a stone which reads simply, Oswald.[119]

His wife Marina was sequestered by federal agents the day after the assassination and later released. However, she had Secret Service protection until she concluded her testimony before the Warren Commission.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Harvey_Oswald

Photo of Oswalds body showing entry wound
http://www.celebritymorgue.com/jfk/oswald-slab.html

[cornbush]

Maybe Ruby's was magic too.:D

[Stainz]

The doc who swore up and down about the 'doctored' JFK autopsy photos - and wrote a great book on it - also said that the 5-10 minute ride to the hospital oddly took 45+ minutes. Oswald bled out and could not be revived. The ER doctors agreed his gunshot was surviveable - with more prudent care. I loaned that book out one too many times.

Stainz

[Deaf Smith]

The ball was dropped so many times in Dallas that day it makes one wonder.

And it's funny how all the 'usual suspects' died.

Black choppers? No. Nothing fancy was needed.

Just a patsy that could be counted on to actually fire a shot or two. While others just made sure it was done right and then cleaned up the mess.

[doc540]

(I coined the "Oswald Curl", thank ya)

Couple of things came into play in the Oswald shoot.

1. He wasn't jacked up on adrenaline, drugs, rage, or fear. That'll motivate the even the worst of 'em.

2. He was gut shot. It's the quintessential curler.

And, yes, it was fatal, but the Cobra took a while to work its magic.

[Old Grump]

Mostly he was shot at point blank range, right where you expect a HD shooting to take place. From what I read elsewhere it entered just below his heart and traveled a little downward and tore up most of his internal organs. Other reports said there wasn't any appreciable organ damage but lots of blood loss and he died from an embolism. There has been so much cobbled together stories written by whack jobs that the truth is pretty much obscured. One reason I suspect that the bullet was a 158 gr LRN was that it was not a through and through shot even from that close distance.

Maybe today with advanced trauma care that could be survivable but I doubt if he would have survived it. especially since they took him to the same hospital Kennedy had been taken to and the staff was still in shock. I doubt seriously there was a doctor in Dallas that day who would have wanted to do a good job on Oswald. All I know was that I was in my first week of boot camp that week and it was pretty traumatic for all of us.

[zombieslayer]

There's an interesting documentary series on the JFK assasination put out by Time Life. It's titled The Men Who Killed Kennedy. They've got it at my local public library. It's pretty in-depth. It's 5 VHS tapes long. Im not a leftist or a liberal. Just always wordered about this event since I first was taught the story in elementary school. A lot of things just don't settle right.;)

[DG45]

There's so much hype these days about hollow point bullets; I was just interested to know if Jack Ruby might have used one. I doubted that he did - I figured it was a 158 Grain LRN - but wasn't sure. Whatever he used, I knew it was fired from a snub nose revolver because I was watching in 1963 as it happened live on TV. I always thought it was the best advertisement for the effectiveness of a 38 Special snub nose revolver that I ever saw. A lot of people today may still doubt that Oswald shot Kennedy, or at least doubt that he was a lone gunman, but there's little question that an hour or so after Kennedy was shot, Oswald did use his own 38 Special revolver to kill Dallas Police Officer J.D. Tippett. So regardless whether Oswald was a patsy or not in the Kennedy assasination, I see no reason to feel real sorry for him. He definitely did have a loaded gun in his possession, and did use it to draw down on and kill a Dallas Police Officer (who I don't believe ever even drew his own weapon).

I did always wonder why Oswald went back home after the Kennedy assasination though. It seems like if he went to work that Nov. 22 morning knowing what he was gonna do that day, he wouldn't have had to go back home later. It's also strange to me how much detail was paid in Officer Tibbetts autopsy report to the bullets that killed him, weight, length, etc. but how little information is availiable on the bullet that Jack Ruby used to kill Oswald.

[NickySantoro]

If you Google "lee harvey oswald autopsy report" you'll get a page indicating that the aorta was perforated. I'm guessing that pretty much any round at contact distance could do that. We've all seen the footage of the shooting and we know it was up close.

[Chesster]

I did always wonder why Oswald went back home after the Kennedy assasination though.

This is another puzzling fact. How did he get back home since he rode with someone else to work, and how did he get back home through all the crowds out to see JFK and the subsequent hysteria?

[zombieslayer]

I think Ruby said it best in an interview from jail before he died of cancer- no one will ever know the truth behind all that happened. I DO know that .38spl is a much underrated round. I trust my moms life with a .38 S&W

[Hkmp5sd]

zombieslayer

WATCH: The Kennedy Assassination, Beyond Conspiracy (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7184933155238761777#)


READ: Case Closed (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Case-Closed/Gerald-L-Posner/e/9781400034628/?itm=1&USRI=case+closed+kennedy)

[breed]

it's a wonder that officer tippet did not draw and fire back at Oswald. I'm guessing no one told him that a 38 has no stopping power.:(

[zombieslayer]

Well, I watched the video, I'll do the reading tonight. A lot of redundant info, but thats to be expected after watching EVERY video one the subject. I still think there was a lot more to it though.

[Edward429451]

the man who did jfk's autopsy swore up and down that the Warren Commission's photos were NOT the original autopsy photos as performed by him.

Yeah and Ruby's 38 caliber pill may have had some back room help to ensure the stopping power of the single round...:D

[brocken]

The real question is DID Jack Ruby shoot Lee Harvey?

[Hkmp5sd]

Well, I watched the video, I'll do the reading tonight. A lot of redundant info, but thats to be expected after watching EVERY video one the subject. I still think there was a lot more to it though.

Over the past 30 years, I've read all the books, watched all the shows, even bought a copy of the Zapruder film.

Lee Harvey Oswald, acting alone, shot and killed JFK. Jack Ruby, acting alone, shot and killed Lee Harvey Oswald.

Every LEO group involved in the case screwed up evidence as much as humanly possible.

Still, one shooter. No conspiracy.

[jglsprings]

If you are really interested in the truth about the JFK shooting read Reclaiming History by Bugliosi. All 1612 pages of it. Then spend some time with the documentation CD.

He did such a great job picking off each and every one of the conspiracies and documenting actual events I just don't understand what happened in his next book on Bush..... :(

"Oswald Curl" - LOL!

[zombieslayer]

I'm kinda surprised this thread is still going... Controversy!! Jk

[orionengnr]

You call yourselves conspiracy theorists???
You just know it had to be a lead hollow point filled with mercury (or a primer seated backwards)! You know, the kind that will "explode" inside the human body... :rolleyes:

[Chesster]

Still, one shooter. No conspiracy.

Then explain all those UFO sightings around that time!!! :D

[DG45]

Well ,my innocent little question has certainly generated a surprising amount of interest on the part of forum viewers. It's been clicked on over 1200 times in the last couple of days...and so far nobody who's responded has any more idea of what type of bullet it was that killed Oswald (or what happened to it) than I do. Am I wrong in thinking that it's routine in an autopsy to retreive the bullet and weigh it, etc?

[zombieslayer]

Nothing about the ENTIRE investigation was routine!!

[Sport45]

Am I wrong in thinking that it's routine in an autopsy to retreive the bullet and weigh it, etc?

That may be routine now, but was it in '63? Back then they probably just looked at it and said something like. "Yep, a .38 bullet" and tossed it into an evidence bag. And there really wasn't much need to collect evidence since Ruby was surrounded by law enforcement officers and media when he pulled the trigger. The bullet is probably still in an evidence locker somewhere in Dallas...., but probably mis-filed. :)

[LightningJoe]

The problem with the standard 158g RNL 38 Spl round was that it only "stopped" it's intended target about 50% of the time.


I suspect blanks will stop an attacker more than 50% of the time. Not that I recommend blanks. But really.

[DG45]

I went back and re-read Old Grump's post #5 on this thread. This time I paid closer attention to the additional information he hyperlinked to that post. On my re-reading of the hyperlinked information I noticed the 8/15/64 date of the FBI report that referred to Ruby's gun, five live rounds, one shell casing and one "slug". This hyperlinked information also contained a notice that these items had all been used in the trial of Jack Ruby and had been returned to the Dallas Police Department where they were signed for by Property Clerk BJ Smith.

The "slug" that was referenced as part of Ruby's property was obviously the one recovered from Lee Harvey Oswald's body. It apparently had been made availiable for Ruby's trial. Perhaps there is some information that can still be found about it in documents relating to that trial, although I'm not sure there ever was a trial. I think Ruby just pled guilty and went straight to prison, thereby squashing whatever opportunity a trial may have presented for the truth (whatever it was) to come out. I assume that this "slug" is still in the possession of the Dallas Police Department, where, I guess, it could still be examined, measured and weighed.

[SwampYankee]

Frankly, I'm floored this thread has not been closed yet. When people start talking about UFO's and black helicopters, all I can say is IBTL.

[zombieslayer]

American history,dude. And I wasn't even around then. It's interesting reading, for me. My grandad had an old colt .38 and when he died, I got an old mayonaise jar full of Rem FMJ .38's from at least the 60's. The cases are nickle(?) plated and the projo's are solid lead. Probably similar to what most people were shooting 40 years ago, but I wouldn't know. This thread isn't that darned disturbing to me, there are plenty of differing views presented on several documentaries, pbs, history channel, etc.

[SwampYankee]

The thread is not disturbing. But being disturbing is generally not what gets something closed. The trouble arises when a thread rolls into conspiracy-town or starts to slowly die from repetition and meaningless posts. Not to mention that the Kennedy assassination posts are totally off the topic of revolvers.

[zombieslayer]

That's true, maybe suggest moving it, no reason to close it down. People seem to enjoy the thread.

[DG45]

Sorry to have disturbed your repose Swamp Yankee and to have launched you into your scold, but the opening question was simply about the type of (revolver) round that was used in a shooting of some note. You may have heard about it. Many respondents seem more interested in it than you do - in fact it's drawn quite a bit of interest and I'm glad that some of the people who've read the question have been kind enoough to try to answer it, or comment. Personally, I see nothing at all wrong with the question or the comments. The references to "black helicopters" have clearly been a tongue-in-cheek type of humor. Maybe you just didn't get it. But by all means, feel free to not click on this thread anymore if you don't want to. It's still a (reasonably)free country, and nobody's forcing you to read the comments or respond to them. However, I cast my one vote against permitting you to become the forums self-appointed censor.

[SwampYankee]

DG45, I never said that a question asking about the type of bullet that Jack Ruby used was outside the scope of the forum or uninteresting. But I count at least half-a-dozen references to the JFK assassination, its history and various related conspiracies that never touch on the original post (they are gratuitous). Those are clearly not within the bounds of this particular forum, on multiple levels. In that vein, it surprises me that the thread is still open. I can't quite figure out why this statement seems to upset you so much. There is no reason to get defensive or abusive, I have given you no reason to do either. You're initial post was a good one, it is a number of the posts that follow that have left the tracks.

[zombieslayer]

Well, I, for one have had a nice time posting in a thread other than something that reads- "what gun do I buy, Glock or 1911" or something.

[jglsprings]

Well, I, for one have had a nice time posting in a thread other than something that reads- "what gun do I buy, Glock or 1911" or something.

+1 to that brother.

[DG45]

Swamp Yank, I took offense because I asked a legitimate question and was enjoying reading the responses when you came along and started squawking about closing the thread because in your own opinion, a few responses were a little off subject. Who do you think you are?

Most revolver owners, at least those like me who load one special round (shotshell for snakes in my case) along with their standard load in the other cylinders realize that just because the remaining five rounds in a killers gun are loaded with 158 grain RNL bullets, it doesn't mean that the one round he used to kill with was the same load.

I've never been able to learn what kind of bullet killed Lee Harvey Oswald, and I've always wondered what it was - because it had a much more potent effect on Oswald than about 90% of the people on this forum would have you believe a standard velocity 38 Special round is capable of. Now I happen to believe that those 90% of people are wrong who think of the standard 38 Special as a wimpy round. I personally think it is a very effective round in most cases. But this particular question is an important one to answer for history too, because if the bullet that killed Oswald wasn't exactly the same kind of round as Jack Ruby's other 5 bullets, it would suggest (to me, at least) that Ruby may have been something more than the hapless, distraught guy he was portrayed to be by the media, and more than someone who just happened to stumble onto the pages of history by being in the wrong place at the wrong time, with a loaded revolver in his possession while he was in a depressed state of mind. I find it incredible that the bullet was either never weighed, or if it was, the result was never publicized - or at least I've never found any evidence that it was publicized. If my interest makes me a kook in your eyes, then you're entitled to your opinion. I won't lose any sleep over it.

[SwampYankee]

Who do you think you are?

Whoa nelly!

If my interest makes me a kook in your eyes, then you're entitled to your opinion.

I'm not even sure I implied that, nevermind outright said it. I'm pretty sure I did say:

You're initial post was a good one, it is a number of the posts that follow that have left the tracks.

My initial post was a 2 sentence comment, easily ignored. And since your posts were entirely on topic, I wasn't even referring to anything you said in the above quote. I'm still not sure why you're popping a gasket. But I'll go do something else now so you can calm down.

[zombieslayer]

There's no question the .38 is underrated. I think for the average joe, a .38spl is a great weapon. A S&W 38 ought to come with the keys to every house.

[seeker_two]

The real question is DID Jack Ruby shoot Lee Harvey?

Nope.....a week before the incident, a grassy knoll was moved into the DPD parking garage under mysterious circumstances.....

[bamaranger]

did I miss it? Exactly what .38 snub did Ruby use. I saw a reference to a Colt Cobra, did the Cobra exist in '63? Detective Special maybe, dunno.

I'm thinking Oswald had some surplus knock-off, what about Ruby model.

[zombieslayer]

It did, in fact exist. The Colt Cobra used by Ruby to shoot Oswald was sold at auction (with evidence tag intact) back in 1991 for $220,000

I did some digging around, and Oswald's gun is shrouded in mystery and controversy. He mail ordered a .38 special S&W from Seaport Traders of Los Angeles in '63. The rifle purported to have been used in the assasination was a Mannlicher-Carcano carbine, also mail ordered (from a different company)
When Oswald was arrested @ the movie theater, the gun that was seized from him was supposed to be a 2" barreled S&W .38. The arresting officer was Mc. Donald, sho handed the suspect's gun over to Seargeant Gerrald Hill. Hill supposedly took the gun to his office and scratched his name H-I-L-L on the triggerguard. 4 hours after handing it over to his superior officer, Mc. Donald signs off on the Revolver V510210 (not sure if thats the guns serial #, or the evidence #, I'd imagine the serial #). It was loaded with 6 rounds of Remington-Peters .38 special. Of the 4 bullets recovered from Officer Tippit's body, 3 were Western Winchesters, one was a Remington-Peters. The four empty cases found at the Tippit scene were 2 Winchesters, 2 Remington-Peters.

[DG45]

It looks like this thread has about run its course unless somebody can come up with a photo of the 38 Special round that was used in the Oswald slaying or it's dimensions. (Maybe from the Oswald autopsy report? Or Ruby grand jury report? Dallas Police Department files?)

Anyway if no other info is forthcoming, thanks to all who responded to this thread with positive comments/information. I appreciate your help and input.

[seeker_two]

It looks like this thread has about run its course unless somebody can come up with a photo of the 38 Special round that was used in the Oswald slaying or it's dimensions. (Maybe from the Oswald autopsy report? Or Ruby grand jury report? Dallas Police Department files?)

Unfortunately, Ruby used an ice bullet, so no evidence remained....



:rolleyes:

[Jeff #111]

There was a second Colt Cobra on the grassy knoll.

[Tommy Vercetti]

There was a second Colt Cobra on the grassy knoll.

it's now in my private collection, btw the coffeetable book I have on the subject said Oswald's .38 was a S&W model 10