Revolver vs. Auto for home defense

[JohnH1963]

I've tossed this around in my mind quite a bit. I enjoy the firepower and quick re-loading capabilities of an automatic. However, a .38 special revolver is easy to operate, safer to handle and easier to fire then any automatic. I honestly do not know if I will be able operate an automatic when I wake up from a sound sleep. However, a revolver is a no brainer.

I believe that 2 shots from a revolver will slow the movement of any human being. Even if the shot is not placed on the head or heart, its going to hit something whether it be the right lung, the stomach, the legs or arms. A hit to a non-vital area is going to significantly impede the performance of anyone.

For an ordinary citizen as myself, I believe a revolver will be enough firepower, but maybe a police officer might need a bit more with the possibility of a purposeful assault everf present.

I am seeing 8-shot revolvers being produced by Taurus. So it seems that it will have enough shots to take on more then one house-guest.

Im wondering what your thoughts are on this matter.

[fisherman66]

I agree with everything except Taurus.

[JohnH1963]

I know the reputation of Taurus, but its an ample self-defense weapon. Someone who buys a Taurus revolver isnt getting one for competition, but usually for home defense where only a fair amount of accuracy is required. Taurus puts a lifetime warranty on all of its weapons too.

In a home defense situation you need a weapon that will be able to intimidate and hit targets reliably from say 20 feet away. You can get that done with the economical Taurus.

[fisherman66]

Suit yerself.

[Firepower!]

I really wish that Taurus were good. I really do! It would make life lot easier by spending less money and getting quality firearms. However, as of now it seems like a dream.

As per intimidation factor, I rather I have something that for sure goes 'bang' when I pull the trigger. I dont buy any handgun for competition really. I buy them and practice with them to be able to decently compete at various levels.

As for revolver vs auto: I feel more comfortable with auto at home because of my kids now being able to open drawers etc. When I am out and about, I am becoming more of a revolver guy. Pull it out and bang!

[CWPinSC]

Use what you shoot best/most easily under stress. For middle-of-the-night a revolver can't be beat. Just be damn sure what you're shooting at when you do. Identify your target.

[NRAhab]

safer to handle and easier to fire then any automatic

How so? I'd be interested to hear the rationale behind considering a revolver "safer" than a semi-automatic pistol; and I'd certainly contend that it is not easier to fire than most semi-auto designs. This is primarily due to the trigger being more difficult to manage on a revolver than a semi-auto.

[raftman]

Yeah I had the same question. I'm no expert, but I don't see anything that makes a revolver inherently safer than a semi-auto. I, for example, feel safer with semi-autos because I'm much more experienced with them, more competent with them, shoot them by far more often.

Is the longer, harder DA trigger pull supposed to keep you from pulling the trigger unnecessarily? Because you can get that from most semi-autos too.

[Ronbert]

I prefer revolvers for house guns because everyone can figure out how to make them shoot and everyone can be fairly certain whether it's loaded or not. There isn't a surprise round up the pipe to discover the hard way and there's no special monkey motion required to get them loaded.

There is also potentially the "honest men use revolvers while gangstas use semi-autos" aspect to the court fight afterwards. (not that I agree there should ever be such nonsense but DAs and the press don't always operate rationally)

(My house gun would be an auto if I lived alone.)

[Levers]

Personally I prefer a revolver for the night stand. 4" - 357 loaded with CorBon 38 special +P's. I have a colt 380 gov mustang, steel frame for conceled carry so I have nothing against auto's. It's a mattter of what you feel comfortable with in a high stress situation. For me in the middle of the night that's a revolver, but everyone is different.

[Maromero]

S&W 686 seven shot or the 8 shot N frame.

[Nick-Mc]

I keep my S&W .38 loaded up in the bedside table, but that was the Glocks place before I sold it. I honestly think your better off with a High-cap 9mm. My G17 had a 17 round mag (almost three cylinders full of my 38!), and I kept another 17 round reload in the drawer. It was easier to handle and more accurate than my .38 (but i'm not saying i'm anywhere near a perfect shot). But, I unfortunately sold it to fund another toy and the .38 took up its place.

Bottom line though, i'd go with what you are comfortable with....that is always your best bet.

[Piper Cub]

I really wish that Taurus were good. I really do! It would make life lot easier by spending less money and getting quality firearms. However, as of now it seems like a dream.

As per intimidation factor, I rather I have something that for sure goes 'bang' when I pull the trigger. I dont buy any handgun for competition really. I buy them and practice with them to be able to decently compete at various levels.

As for revolver vs auto: I feel more comfortable with auto at home because of my kids now being able to open drawers etc. When I am out and about, I am becoming more of a revolver guy. Pull it out and bang! :D

[#18indycolts]

I am becoming more of a revolver guy. Pull it out and bang!


both my autos do that.

[Superhouse 15]

I think the vast majority of firearms bought by the average homeowner get loaded and stuck in the sock drawer "just in case" and rarely practiced with if at all. For most people who don't train or maintain their pistol and load it with whatever the salesman gave them at purchase the revolver is a good choice. It can survive lack of lube and sock drawer lint in the action and still fire anything that will fit in the chamber, even if you have to crank 20 pounds of pressure on the trigger. That might choke even a quality auto. Is it safer, sure for the untrained. That heavier and longer DA pull resists finger-on-trigger accidents (not prevents, resists). Lack of a manual safety prevents someone looking at the gun and cranking on the trigger trying to figger out wher the safety is.

[Ricky]

I used to think revolvers were simpler but then I bought a Glock. No safety, just point and shoot. when your done just put it down, it's in the same condition it was in less the fired rounds. Way more firepower than a 6 shooter.
As for Taurus. You say you don't need that good of a gun for home defense? Personally I put a higher value on protecting my family than anything else. Got to be reliable, Who knows when a cheap gun will fail?

[Rich Keagy]

Kimber 1911 .45. It'll do.

[Ricky]

For me, I like guns, I like to shoot guns, I like to practice. My wife on the other hand only shoots because she needs to know how to. She needs a gun that is stupid simple. No safety to remember to release and when the shooting is done she certainly won't have the presence of mind to put the safety back on. The Glock although not as pretty as a nice 1911 is "Stupid simple" and as reliable as any gun. other than the Glock I'd give her a revolver for home defense.

[bambam1723]

I have always been a auto type guy....but that has been changing. I am starting to lean towards reveolvers b/c they are much more reliable imho. No fail to feeds or stove pipes.

lthough I believe the 12 gauge is the ideal home defense weapon

[Mannlicher]

for about 150 years, out in the real world, folks have used revolvers. If they did not work, they would be gone.

[buck9]

I have a glock and a Walther and they are good guns like them both. But the one I shoot most and is loaded beside my bed is my S&W model 64. But under the bed is what I grab first. My pistol grip shotgun.

[raftman]

I dunno how much stock one should put into the "revolvers are more reliable" theory. I know I've seen some real unreliable revolvers, even from reputable manufacturers. There are problems that cannot be resolved simply by pulling the trigger again. The reason I think people report more problems with semi-autos is because these days, there are many more semi-autos out there, and many more manufacturers of semi-autos out there, particularly when it comes to low-end makers. There's still plenty of companies making truly low-end semi-autos, such as Cobra or Jimenez, but truly crappy revolvers (like RG or Clerke) are no longer being made in/for the US market (I know, I know Taurus is often terrible, but I'd take one of those over a Bryco/Jennings any day).

A good semi-auto, however, can be just as reliable as any revolver in just about any situation. Sure there'll be people who argue, "yeah but you can shoot a hammerless revolver from inside your pocket!" That's generally nonsense, though.

[GeauxTide]

As you like it. I owned nothing but revolvers until a Springfield Mil-Spec.

[Jim March]

How so? I'd be interested to hear the rationale behind considering a revolver "safer" than a semi-automatic pistol; and I'd certainly contend that it is not easier to fire than most semi-auto designs.

NYPD saw a significant rise in accidental discharges when they switched away from DA revolvers (mostly if not exclusively S&W) and switched to Glocks. They upped the trigger pulls but that didn't really solve much.

With a standard modern wheelgun, the first step in takedown and cleaning disables the gun as a firing weapon: swinging the cylinder out. It's also dead easy to sort out whether or not it's loaded. With an auto, figuring out if it's loaded or not isn't at all easy. It's easier with big-bores but with a 9mm it's not uncommon to have a round lurking "up the pipe" and unnoticed. It's also possible to screw up the order of the "drop the mag" and "rack the slide and look in there" steps (oops). And specific to the Glock, the takedown procedure starts with dry-fire and if you've screwed up and left a round in there it IS getting cranked off.

Hope your muzzle direction and backstop are OK.

Glocks are very unforgiving of mistakes, moreso than a 1911 in my view.

PS: I can make a good argument that the safest handgun action of all is a transfer-bar equipped SA wheelgun, esp. Ruger's New Model action that loads/unloads with the hammer down.

[Jeremiah/Az]

I have & carry either at times. I believe for the occasional shooter the revolver is easier if not safer in your scenario of waking up in the middle of the night. If you have a dud or FTF,FTE with an auto & a flashlite in one hand,it can be awkward to clear unless you are well practiced with it.

[Superhouse 15]

Yes the Glocks and other DAO or DAO-like (lets not debate action types, you know what I mean) are point and shoot simple, but the revolvers springs and mechanisms are basically at rest. More to go wrong in an auto. Revolvers do jam, and when they do it usually is a time consuming process to clear and usually involves a brass hammer. But for the most part they are just "pull again" clearance drills. My bedside dedicated HD gun is a Glock 17, but when a newcustomer walks in to the shop looking for a first time HD gun, I go right for the S&W or Taurus or Ruger wheelguns.

[armsmaster270]

Jim: The Colt Trooper MKIII was also transfer bar but double action.

For me personally when I go to bed my CCW weapon comes out of the holster and goes by the bed a Sig 226 .357Sig w/ CT grips

[Dwight55]

I thought about not saying anything, . . . but this is hard to let slide by, . . . a statement by the OP: "I enjoy the firepower and quick re-loading capabilities of an automatic. However, a .38 special revolver is easy to operate, safer to handle and easier to fire then any automatic."

OP: contrary to your opinion, . . . the 1911 is THE safest general production firearm in the handgun line.

ALL revolvers need only the trigger pulled, . . . no thumb safety, no grip safety, . . . just a trigger pull and it is shooting.

Glocks are the same. Yeah, . . . I know, . . . there is some flim flam jargon about a safety in the trigger, . . . but anything that moves it, . . . also moves the trigger and it too is shooting.

It takes three mechanical moves to make the 1911 shoot, . . . gripping the grip safety, . . . depressing the thumb safety and pulling the trigger.

There are also a number of revolvers out there that if dropped on the hammer, . . . they go boom because they have no transfer bar, . . . they are in the hands of a novice, . . . an accident waiting to happen.

I would also never own a revolver that had a 4 pound trigger pull like my carry 1911. It is easier to shoot than any of the 4 revolvers I currently own or any of the 15 or so I've traded through the years, . . . and that includes two .357 Pythons and one .44 Anaconca.

This is not meant to be a slam on the OP, . . . as Jack Webb said, . . . "just the facts, ma'am."

May God bless,
Dwight

[rickyjames]

a revolver is a good self defense weapon. the brand you choose is up to you. i have smiths and rugers and taurus revolvers among other brands. my taurus are as reliable and as accurate as any other of their type. half of the taurus hating stuff you read on the net is from people that have never owned a taurus. i have a ruger redhawk 44mag and a taurus 44 mag and i like the taurus better. i have smith, taurus and rossi 357 mags and my favorite is the rossi made by taurus. i can afford other brands and i have other brands and taurus is as good as most and better than some.

i would bet my last dollar that if a taurus hater needed backup they wouldn't refuse help from a taurus when their bacon is on the line. i also own taurus semi auto pistols among my colts and springfields and rugers and others and i am pleased with them as well.

[jimbob86]

12 Guage.....

[BillCA]

Here are some of the reasons I prefer a wheelgun as the home defense weapon.

- Personal: I shoot wheelguns better than most autos.
- Almost zero chance of a jam, especially due to improper grip or hold.
- No hot, sharp empty brass to step on in the dark
- No brass to bounce off walls into your face/body or clothing.
- No need to remember Condition 1,2,3 or 4.
- You don't have to flip a safety up or down.
- A steel revolver makes a better sap than a poly pistol.

Some discussion:
Ever wake up because you were laying on your arm or hand and it's gone to sleep? Or ever wake up and your hand is stiff or weak? I have. And trying to fire a self-loader at that point could very well induce a FTF because you can't resist the recoil enough.

First time I did a house-clearing drill with live ammo I learned that walls and door jambs can bounce that hot brass right back at you. Like down the neck of your shirt (or pajamas). In my case, it caught on the temple piece of my eyeglasses. *ouch* Air-soft sims won't teach you that.

Never expect that you'll instantly remember the safety unless you only use and train with a single platform. Don't expect the grip shape to instantly remind you either. A friend decided to replace his Beretta with a Kahr K40 as his beside gun. Under stress he was confused because he couldn't find the safety in the dark (Kahrs don't have an external safety).

[Mello2u]

JohnH1963

Revolver vs. Auto for home defense
I've tossed this around in my mind quite a bit. I enjoy the firepower and quick re-loading capabilities of an automatic. However, a .38 special revolver is easy to operate, safer to handle and easier to fire then any automatic. I honestly do not know if I will be able operate an automatic when I wake up from a sound sleep. However, a revolver is a no brainer.

I believe that 2 shots from a revolver will slow the movement of any human being. Even if the shot is not placed on the head or heart, its going to hit something whether it be the right lung, the stomach, the legs or arms. A hit to a non-vital area is going to significantly impede the performance of anyone.

For an ordinary citizen as myself, I believe a revolver will be enough firepower, but maybe a police officer might need a bit more with the possibility of a purposeful assault everf present.

I am seeing 8-shot revolvers being produced by Taurus. So it seems that it will have enough shots to take on more then one house-guest.

Im wondering what your thoughts are on this matter.

I cannot agree with your statement above which I highlighted in blue about a revolver being safer and easier to fire than a semi-auto.

I cannot agree with your second statement that I highlighted in blue about a hit to a non-vital area significantly impeding the performance of anyone. That is an unrealistic expectation. Even a shot through the heart may not significantly impede someone for 15 seconds or more. A lot of aimed shots can be fired in 15 seconds. Each individual threat is unique. The ability to stay in the fight depends on not only physical damage sustained; but also drugs present and mental determination.

Regardless of those disagreements, your choice of a revolver for home defense may be the best choice for you. Reliability is a prime trait that you want in your defensive firearm. Sufficient power and penetration are also highly desirable factors, as they are what does the damage inside a threat to cause incapacitation. Combat accuracy is present in most handguns.

Please seek training so that you can use the tool to your best advantage. Your level of training is important to your winning (not merely surviving) a gunfight. Assuming that you have achieved a level of competence to always follow the 4 safety rules and can shoot targets well, you can move on to defensive training. Training needs to include not only the laws which impact on your possession of your handgun; but also, the laws which may come into play if you use the handgun in self-defense. Further, training needs to deal with proper mindset and situational awareness. The training dealing with actual shooting should include not just punching paper with all the time in the world, but use a shot timer to introduce a time element. You need to balance speed and accuracy.

[zombieslayer]

I like pocket guns and snubs. A small pistol within arms reach 24/7 and a 12ga for dedicated HD. My .308 is my 'do all rifle'. I'd say get a small auto or revolver thats easy 2 always carry, even @ home. Mine sits @ arms reach or on me always. My 2cents.

[Newton24b]

most people get a rather large adrenaline rush when the front door gets blown off its hinges at 2am during a home invasion. When that adrenaline hits your system, you dont really have fine motor control.A large number of semi auto handguns have multiple safeties that have to be switched off with fine motor control you no longer have.

A big wheel gun is simply "point..squeeze...re point....squeeze...repeat"

only thing simpler then that is a ww2 flame thrower " point and squeeze two triggers at same time".

Other then that double barrell shotgun is very friendly for adrenaline rush.

[raftman]

A semi-auto, or rather many if not most semi-autos, can be kept in an equally ready state as a revolver (when all you gotta do is pull the trigger if the need arises). So I don't think safeties are really a problem.

[Tom Servo]

Almost zero chance of a jam, especially due to improper grip or hold.
You've got a great point there. As one other poster mentioned, you may have to grab the gun in a hurry, and it takes a few seconds for the hand/eye thing to catch up with consciousness. Under duress, your technique may suffer. A revolver is more forgiving of such things.

And yes, I've stood at a firing line and watched three shooters limp-wrist Glock 17's to the point of jamming. Two of them work for the Federal government.

When the dust clears, the revolver is easier to clear without the mishaps that may cause a negligent discharge while clearing an automatic.

In terms of long-term reliability, the revolver can be left loaded indefinitely, as there are no springs under tension. It will work today just as well as when it did when you stuck it in the sock drawer in 1978.

(That is, unless it's begun to rust)

[dabigguns357]

For me at the bedside and at the ready, 12 gauge with #00 buck and a back up Sig 229(357 sig).Wife has 410 bore and a snubbie .357 as back up.Every thing else goes in the safe locked up.I can just clip and go.
http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp354/dabigguns357/Picture065.jpg

[MLeake]

... and the hand/eye thing.

Oddly enough, I don't usually look at a pistol to determine how to grip it. I just shove the web of my hand as high up the backstrap as I can, so that I always have the same grip, every time I draw or pick up the pistol. Since I always take a high grip, and can feel how the weapon sits, it would feel strange to the point of being uncomfortable to take any other grip, and I'd adjust without conscious thought.

One of the first things that I learned with close-contact MA is that our bodies respond to sensory inputs from touch faster than from any other sense. We take in more information via our eyes, in most cases, but as far as actually reacting (rightly or wrongly) to stimuli, touch wins.

So, train to always take a high grip on a pistol, and your hands will correct to that grip before your brain consciously processes the action.

[trooper3385]

The 12 gauge I believe is still king of the hill when it comes to home defense. Just hearing the shotgun being racked is going to make most intruders turn and run. You known what they say, a pistol is just there to fight your way back to your rifle or shotgun. A shotgun by the bed can be a little inconvenient though. Especially if you have kids running around the house. If your going to use a pistol, go with what your more comfortable with. Your not looking for a gun for target practice. Most shooting incidents take place at 10 feet or less.

[Dannyl]

Hi,
One thing to consider for a HD Revolver.
Amongst the pin-shooting enthusiasts the TAURUS 608 is considered as a great revover. ( it is an 8 shot 0.357 Mag, revolver, with a 6" ported barrel.

In general, people that are invoved in this sport shoot a lot, which can cause an inferior gun to fail, and I am yet to see a 608 fail to fire.

Being able to hit the "sweet spot" of a bowling pin to make it fly backwards requires placing your shot in a 1.5" circle at 25', so the accuracy of the 608 is more than acceptable. the porting of the barrel make an easy job of keeping the gun on target for repetitive shots, by mininmizing muzzle flip considerably ( this also makes it easier on the wrists)

Also, the longer barrel lends itself to easier point-shooting, a 6" barrel is actually far easier to point (and control) than a snub-nose.


IMO, this is one more option to consider.

Brgds,

Danny

[mavracer]

I honestly do not know if I will be able operate an automatic when I wake up from a sound sleep. However, a revolver is a no brainer.
you've answered your own question right there.

[Skans]

I honestly do not know if I will be able operate an automatic when I wake up from a sound sleep. However, a revolver is a no brainer.

You must never have been startled awake by the sound of police heliocopters and/or strange sounds. This happend to me Saturday night. Believe me, you will be wide awake with heart pounding and adreniline pumping. You will be ready to operate am M60.

[wyatt3d]

1. Go with the 12 gauge

2. Go with what you are most comfortable with. If it is someone in-experienced definatly the revolver, and practice, practice, practice with whatever your choice.

3. A revolver has no more "firepower" than an auto just because it is a revolver. Taurus makes a revolver that shoots 9mm luger and I would seriously doubt it performs better than an Auto. .38 is a respectible round but doesn't penetrate any better than 9mm.

my HD is the 12 gauge and an xd 9. point and shoot, low recoil so my wife can shoot it well, very reliable, added saftey of round indicator and grip saftey.

Her carry gun is a taurus 650cia .357 that shoots very well. I have had one malfunction shooting .357 where the cylinder rotated a little after the round was fired so it was in effect jammed. I had to rotate the cylinder by hand back to fire postition. That could have been operator error because the .357's were popping my hand pretty good and I may have partially pulled the trigger afterward or not released it completely.

[JohnH1963]

The revolver is safer for a household because you can visually confirm if its loaded or not. It is safer to hand to a person because you can swing out the cylinder, confirm its not loaded and hand it to them like that. The trigger pull is usually heavier then an automatic so the risk of accidental mis-firing is less.

What if someone untrained or doesnt uses firearms in your household needs to operate your weapon? Lets say your wife while you are at work. She hears a noise, is upstairs and someone is ramming the downstairs door. The revolver seems to make more sense then the automatic.

Then there is the concept behind lubrication. An automatic that sits there for a period of time is going to get dry. So the revolver is more reliable in that regard.

Then there is the "wake-up" factor. When you wake up from a deep slumber, there is no telling what you might do next. There is no amount of training you can do to train yourself to operate something while halfway sleeping. What if the automatic jams? What if you did not load it? What if the slide needs to be racked? The revolver is more simple in design and operation.

[MLeake]

... you can't check whether an automatic is loaded by pulling back the slide?

... you can't safely hand an automatic to another person by dropping the magazine and locking back the slide, verifying first that the chamber is empty?

Sorry, but if your weapon-handling basics are sound, the automatic is perfectly safe.

Also, if your personal defense automatic is sitting long enough for the lubrication to dry out, you don't practice nearly enough.

Last, the only person who has the safe to my gun safe other than me has been trained on how to use everything in the safe, and she's quite capable of doing so both safely and with reasonably likelihood of a hit. She likes my GP100, but she also likes my SIG P220 and my CZ75 PCR, but the reality is that if something worries her enough to make her grab a gun, she's getting the 870 out.

If you think somebody else in the household may need to use a weapon, but you aren't willing to train them to a level where they can safely handle an auto (or a long gun), then you may need to adjust your thinking.

[wyatt3d]

The revolver is safer for a household because you can visually confirm if its loaded or not. Same with the XD It is safer to hand to a person because you can swing out the cylinder, confirm its not loaded and hand it to them like that. You should always hand an automatic over with magazine ejected and slide openThe trigger pull is usually heavier then an automatic so the risk of accidental mis-firing is less. ehh, okay

What if someone untrained or doesnt uses firearms in your household needs to operate your weapon?the XD/Glock/Kahr are all as easy to operate if they are left loaded and chambered, as you would a revlover Lets say your wife while you are at work. She hears a noise, is upstairs and someone is ramming the downstairs door. The revolver seems to make more sense then the automatic. Actually I'd rather her have a shotgun, but would rather her have 17 rounds of 9mm/12 rounds of .40 or 8 rounds of .45 than 6 rounds of anything
Then there is the concept behind lubrication. An automatic that sits there for a period of time is going to get dry. So the revolver is more reliable in that regard.really? against modern pistols? how many years are we talking these things setting up without taking them out and shooting/cleaning them every once in a while

Then there is the "wake-up" factor. When you wake up from a deep slumber, there is no telling what you might do next. There is no amount of training you can do to train yourself to operate something while halfway sleeping.If a safe action pistol is kept in the same ready condition as the revolver this isn't a factor, I don't believe a cocked and locked 1911 takes that much training to operate either What if the automatic jams? this is possible but not likely with a maintained quality pistolWhat if you did not load it? what if you didn't load the revolver, the auto is faster.What if the slide needs to be racked?If it's for HD, it shouldn't The revolver is more simple in design and operation. Yes.

If you prefer a revolver and will shoot it often for practice then by all means, that is what you should get. But there are options these days.

[Stevie-Ray]

For me personally when I go to bed my CCW weapon comes out of the holster and goes by the bed Same here, in my case a Kimber UCDP in .45 ACP, the weapon I'm most practiced with, most accurate with, and it has night sights. What could be better for me?

Revolvers? No thanks. But my new house is larger with longer areas of fire that may invite use of the shotgun; at this point I don't know. I'll have to further investigate that possibility when I move. Right now, the shotgun is too unwieldy for the spaces in my house, not to mention that I shoot a pistol far better.

[a10t2]

the 1911 is THE safest general production firearm in the handgun line.
Personally, I come down on the semi-auto side of this debate (for reasons that have already been mentioned), but I'd like to hear the logic behind that statement. Has there been a change to the 1911, or do you still have to take the safety off to unload it?

[Uncle H]

The revolver in my night stand is a Charter Arms Bulldog in .44 Spcl.

Heavy bullet, big boom. Only 5 rounds but hey, I think I can at least make lots of boom and maybe even hit a bad guy up close & personal.

Works for me. :rolleyes:

[tju1973]

Get what you can afford and are comfortable with--- I bought an EAA Windicator for function and a nightstand gun. It is sort of ugly, and the chopped barrel is way wierd, but it goes bang..and while its a .357, I mainly load it with .38s....+P of course, but they work....


Taurus is good enough...and probably a ROssi is in store for my other side...

YMMV....

[csmsss]

My pistol is just something to grab to get me to the 12 gauge, which is in a much more secure location. I prefer to use overwhelming force whenever force is required, and a handgun simply doesn't approach the lethality of a 12 gauge shotgun.

[Chettt]

If I were a bad guy entering an average gun owner's home I would rather face an autoloader than a revolver and here's why. A revolver always goes boom! I'm going to be shot at if not hit. An autoloader(in an average gun owner's hand) has a 95% chance of going boom, a 1% chance the magazine is not seated, a 1% chance a round is not chambered, a 1% chance the safety is on, a 1% chance it will jamb, a 1% chance that the most qualified gun person in the house will not be holding the firearm. My odds are not great but better, that the homeowner will have to look down at the gun and give me an opportunity to win. In someone's hand that practices often with an autoloader there is probably only a 1% chance of failure to whatever but most gun owners don't practice monthly.

[csmsss]

An autoloader(in an average gun owner's hand) has a 95% chance of going boom, a 1% chance the magazine is not seated, a 1% chance a round is not chambered, a 1% chance the safety is on, a 1% chance it will jamb, a 1% chance that the most qualified gun person in the house will not be holding the firearm.Care to share where these obviously scientifically valid statistics are derived from? They look so....official!

[Glenn Dee]

Revolver or autoloader?... I think it's a personal choice. Both will work equally well. In my opinion whats more important is practice, practice, practice. Develop muscle memory for whatever you choose. Take it to the range and shoot it. Shoot it in low light. Shoot it with your eyes closed, shoot it with a light shining in your eyes. Make the gun an extension of your body. make picking it up and shooting as natural as well.... you know what I mean.

The autoloader will probably require a little more care and feeding, but most modern pistols are as reliable as any revolver. IMHO.

The only thing I would shy away from in a home defense weapon is a ported barrel. Bad Idea.

:rolleyes:

[raftman]

Chet, if you actually take a little time to prepare, you can be 100% sure the mag is seated, 100% sure a round is chambered, 100% sure the safety is off, and so on. Furthermore, if you have a good semi-auto, you'll have a far lower chance of the gun jamming than 1%, in fact, a 1% failure rate is something most people on this board probably won't tolerate in a SD/HD gun.

[JohnH1963]

How many people ready their weapons from day to day like an officer or a soldier? Most people, including long-time owners, do not sit there from day to day making sure their weapon is well oiled and functional.

Weapons may sit in drawers or boxes for days, weeks or even months without ever moving an inch.

[Scubasimmons]

I'm not sure why letting a cleaned and oiled gun sitting for days/months is an issue. Most gun oils are not incredibly volatile and do not readily evaporate.

I clean my 12 ga automatic after hunting season and it sits for 8 months before it gets used again and I don't clean it before I go back hunting. I load, point and pull the trigger.

[csmsss]

How many people ready their weapons from day to day like an officer or a soldier? Most people, including long-time owners, do not sit there from day to day making sure their weapon is well oiled and functional.

Weapons may sit in drawers or boxes for days, weeks or even months without ever moving an inch. I'm not understanding your point. If you put your firearm away in a ready condition, it will remain in a ready condition until the next time you pick it up. What are you presuming would happen? Do magazines magically unseat themselves, and pistols mysteriously unload themselves just because a pistol isn't examined every day? I don't think your post makes any sense.

[raftman]

How many people ready their weapons from day to day like an officer or a soldier?

If they don't, maybe they should. It doesn't really take much work or anything. Not really any different then setting the alarm clock so you're up for work in the morning on time or brushing your teeth, just part of a routine. Heck, sometimes it's so simple as taking it out of your holster, and setting it within easy reach of your bed.

[MLeake]

.... At least some of us do check our weapons at least daily. If I'm carrying, I check both the weapon and the holster/concealment garment fit, and adjust for smooth draw. If I'm putting a pistol on the nightstand, it's checked first.

I've weeded down my collection to only those handguns that point naturally for me. Within the confined space of my home, it really doesn't matter which one is in my hand, they all fire reliably and they all hit consistently.

And any number of us are more proficient with our weapons than the vast majority of LEO's. I have a lot of LEO friends. Of the lot, three are what I'd consider good shots; four if you count an MP.

Most of the LEO's I've met are indifferent shots, and only fire as often as they need in order to pass recurrent qualification.

And Chettt, the only times my practice falls off to "monthly" levels are times when I am someplace that I don't have access to weapons. When I'm home, I shoot at least once a week, and I usually shoot 200-400 rounds per session.

Sounds like some of you are arguing for revolvers as the tool for least common denominator shooters. My argument would be that the goal should be to raise the practice frequency and skill levels of the shooters. That said, a revolver has its place. For me, that place is in the realm of magnum loads for anti-critter use, or for areas where I consider the likely threat to be a mix of 2 and 4 legged attackers.

Around the house, or in town, I prefer the characteristics of an automatic.

Of course, around the house, when I go to bed there's a pistol on the nightstand, but there's a 12ga behind the door... (When I'm not home, the shotgun is in the safe, where it belongs.)

[Skans]

An autoloader(in an average gun owner's hand) has a 95% chance of going boom,

A Lorcin, Jennings, or Jimenez might have a 95% chance of going "boom". $400+ range autoloaders, for all practical purposes go "boom" as much as a revolver. Anyone who claims differently is still living back in the 1930's.

But, from the perspective of a guy staring down the barrel of a gun, I doubt that he's running through a bunch of statistics in his little criminal brain. He just doesn't have that kind of time until "lights out".

Reliability is not a good reason to choose an semi-automatic over a revolver or vise versa. Decent semi-autos are every bit as reliable as decent revolvers. Maybe ease of operation would be one such reason, but I think that's even over rated in a revolver. Safety could be another reason if your revolver has a heavy trigger pull. Most kids wouldn't be able to operate it, whereas a kid could figure hot how to flip the safety and pull the trigger on some semi-autos where a round is kept chambered.

But, back to reliability:

Magazine not locked into the frame = cylinder not snapped into place.
Failure to Feed = failure to index
too weak to rack the slide = too weak to pull a double action trigger
semi-auto kaboom = revolver kaboom from indexing barrel too soon after misfire.

There is a lot of misinformation out there that revolvers are totally reliable. They aren't. I've fired two in my lifetime that had problems indexing correctly and thus firing when you pulled the trigger (one was a colt python 357, I don't recal what the other one was). I've had at least one misfire with a revolver because I made the mistake of not snapping the cylinder all the way into place. Not a big deal or even something you are likely to remember when you are at the range, but if this was a self defense situation, it would be a genuine problem.

[#18indycolts]

A revolver always goes boom! I'm going to be shot at if not hit. An autoloader(in an average gun owner's hand) has a 95% chance of going boom, a 1% chance the magazine

:rolleyes: My Walther P99 and Glock26have always went boom, that would be 100% of the time. Nice try.

[Chettt]

The "average gun owner", not "The Firing Line members", will not go to a noisy, dirty range and fire their gun enough to be 100% proficient with an autoloader. If they did, we would all have to reserve range time 6 months in advance.

[Skans]

The "average gun owner", not "The Firing Line members", will not go to a noisy, dirty range and fire their gun enough to be 100% proficient with an autoloader.

If I were 100% proficient with an auto loader or revolver, I'd quit my day job, compete for money and write articles for Guns and Ammo.:D

[NRAhab]

Guns break - anything with mechanical parts is subject to wear and tear on said parts. I had a Colt Trooper Mk III (which I wish I never sold) where the cylinder wouldn't rotate if you fired it too fast with hot magnum ammo. In the course of the last two years I've fired over 40,000 rounds of ammo in competition, in which time I've seen everything malfunction, from Glocks to 1911s and even revolvers.

Basing your decision for a home defense on "which sword is the most magic" is kind of silly when you're talking about the reliability differences between a semi-auto and a revolver. Modern, well made wheelguns and modern, well made semi-autos are both going to be ridiculously reliable, but neither are going to "100%" reliable.

If the debate is "revolvers vs. autos" it needs to focus on the needs of the user, not the mechanical properties of the gun. Which gun is easier for the shooter to operate under stress? Which gun is going to present the user with the best combination of recoil control and ballistic efficiency? What type gun will the shooter find, for lack of a better word, most shootable? That's where the debate needs to focus - not on "reliability" issues. If your gun has never malfunctioned, then you've not shot your gun enough.

[skoro]

I prefer a revolver, but that's just my personal preference. I keep a k-frame S&W 357 loaded and ready to go.

Anyone going with a semiauto has my full support. We should all go with what we handle and shoot the best.

[feldspar13]

I use a ruger security-six for home defense

[Hank15]

If someone broke into my house, I would not want to fumble with safeties, magazines, decockers, etc.

That being said, revolvers and autos are both fine choices for home defense, as long as the revolver is loaded and made by a quality manufacturer, and the auto is a Glock with one in the chamber :D.

[BillCA]

NRAhab's comments speak directly to the point. The individual user's needs will determine whether a wheelgun or bottom-feeder is appropriate.

Despite all of the practice and proficiency described by some members, the fact is that not everyone can practice weekly or even monthly. Not all users may be as "gifted" as others.

Toss in other factors here and the dynamics change. Age, strength, illnesses, fatigue and even mental preparedness can change the answer to which is better.

Two cases relevant here.

First, if you've ever been down with a real case of enfluenza, bronchitis, pnemonia, or other serious illness you might recall how tired and weak you felt. Under those conditions, a semi-auto may not be the best choice if you're unable to maintain a firm hold. Here a revolver is more forgiving.

Secondly, for the novice or non-shooter, the revolver makes more sense. Most women I have introduced into shooting tend to favor the revolver first. Why? Because it is completely operated by your muscles. Nothing happens "by itself" - that is, hammers don't cock themselves, bullets don't chamber themselves and levers don't cause hammers to fall.

This is not to berate the semi-auto pistol or those who select it as first choice. There are certain advantages to the pistol over the revolver. I would certainly rather have my spouse using whatever she shoots well over a gun that she doesn't shoot well.

In review of the posts, I spotted some myths and errors of assumptions that still persist. In any defensive situation:
Shot placement is King.
Penetration is Queen.
Only hits count. A hit with a .22 does more damage than a miss with a .44.
Never rely on any firearm to make a one-shot stop.
Your opponent will not be impressed by the brand of your gun, ammo or even it's caliber.
Never assume your opponent will feel any pain from a wound. Adrenaline may keep him going.
Not everyone is afraid of the sound of a 12 gauge being chambered. Some folks is just stupid. Or plain mean.
No gunfight will be like the one you trained for.
Speed is fine. Accuracy is final.
Dead, bleeding or whole, the proper place for an attacker is on the ground.

[R1145]

It's the man, not the gun (within common sense parameters). Whatever you choose, know how to use it, keep it ready and just do what you need to do if comes down to it.

It should be enough. If not, you'd probably be dying anyway.

I used to think that a good revolver (stainless, mid-frame, 4" bbl, .38 +P) would be the best choice for an "average" person, but then I considered that one really should be an expert if one took on the responsibility of potential use of lethal force.

Experts use modern autos (compact (but not sub-compact), hi-cap mag (or reload ready), caliber 9mm +P or greater, up to .45, train & maintain regularly), so therefore anyone considering defending themselves with a firearm should pick an "expert's" gun, then become one.

Of course, long guns trump handguns in most situations, so a good shotgun (12 gauge "00" buck, pump or auto, 18" bbl, bead sight) is king out to 25 yards or so, rifle/carbine (semi-auto, intermediate caliber, hi-cap mag, red dot sight) in real combat situations with multiple armed attackers.

But then I came around to the fact that most people aren't willing to put in the effort to train to that level. Given that the chance of such an encounter ending your life are incredibly small, in evolutionary (and mental health) terms, most people are happier and more successful for not worrying about it, and putting their energy into other pursuits.

So there it is. For the "average" person, use the revolver. For the person who will seek proficiency, get a good autoloader, and consider the long gun. For the enthusiast, get whatever the hell you like for whatever reasons and devote a significant amount of time and treasure to being a master.

Whatever you choose, keep it secure and properly maintained.

[Skans]

I'd be currious to know if more revolvers or semi-auto hand guns are sold each year in America. :rolleyes:

[MLeake]

I hadn't noticed that you were the OP when I gave you my rebuttal. In terms of your original question, then, and based on your subsequent arguments, you are not in the habit of making your weapon ready daily, and you don't practice all that often.

While I'd recommend you change those habits, you may not have the time, means, nor interest to do so. For your purposes, a revolver probably is best.

I had thought about recommending a pump action 20ga, but that would require either remembering to chamber a round, or to release a safety, which were two of the things you didn't want to have to do with a semi-auto pistol, so I guess the shotgun is out, too.

BillCA, I've had bronchitis once, and lost 20lbs in about a month. Not much fun. I've also had a concussion or two that were temporarily disabling. However, in any of those cases, hand strength wouldn't have been the issue. My hands worked just fine when I was ill, except at the peak of the associated fever. The problem during the fever or concussion periods would have been the ability to actually hit whatever I would have tried to aim at - IE mental focus was affected, not hand strength. During those periods, I wouldn't have handled ANY gun, for safety reasons.

I'd look at hand strength as more of an issue for those with arthritis or hand injuries. People who are just generally weak can build up sufficient strength to handle a pistol with reasonable recoil slide, if they so choose. People with actual diseases or injuries of the hand are probably better off with a revolver or a long gun.

[NRAhab]

Tiger McKee, a guy that knows some stuff about some stuff when it comes to firearms has weighed in on the issue (http://gunnuts.net/2009/10/13/tactical-thoughts-2/) in his column in The Tactical Wire. The money quote is probably this, though:

Most people think revolvers are easy to shoot and operate, and for some reason they think this is especially true for women shooters. This is simply not the case, regardless of the shooter's gender. The trigger on most revolvers is longer and heavier than the majority of semi-autos. More than a few women have come to class with revolvers who didn't have the hand strength to smoothly press the trigger. Triggers can be lightened and smoothed up, but that still leaves us with the revolver's sights. The short sight radius - the distance between front and rear sight - and the fact that most revolvers don't have great sights, makes them difficult to shoot accurately, especially with at a small target or extended distances. While the majority of self-defense use is at close range there is always the possibility your fight will require surgical precision. A short barrel revolver requires expert abilities to make surgical shots.

I'd recommend to anyone who is making the "revolver vs. auto" decision to click the link and then click over to Tiger's column. It's worth a read.

Also, for what it's worth, my nightstand gun is a revolver, but not because I believe it's magically "better" than a semi-auto, it just so happens that I like wheelguns.

[MLeake]

I agree entirely about the trigger being easier with most autos.

The issue I see with weaker hands is one of being able to actuate a slide. This depends in part on good technique, but also on the strength of the recoil spring, and the available grip area, contour, and friction of the slide's surface.

Technique can mitigate quite a bit. For instance, cock the hammer first, to take the mainspring tension out of the net force required. Use the shooting hand and arm to press the frame forward against slide tension held by the off-hand, instead of trying to pinch and pull the slide rearward. However, that still leaves a net grip and force requirement that some hands can't do, due to arthritis, injuries, or just plain age.

Comparing the two factors (trigger vs arming), as an example - my mother shoots autos better, but she has a lot of trouble making some autos ready. OTOH, she has a hard time shooting a revolver in DA mode.

We've played around with things a bit; she seems to do ok with a P239 in 9mm. I think that's due to the combination of a relatively easy recoil spring, combined with a tall, easily gripped slide.

YMMV.

[Skans]

The issue I see with weaker hands is one of being able to actuate a slide.

Simple solution to that - just install one of those slide handles that some folks use in competitions....if you are still too weak to rack the slide with a handle on it, then place handle against night stand and lean forward.

Seriously, I haven't come across anyone who couldn't rack a slide, even without a handle. What I do come across are folks who are too timid to rack it correctly and ride the slide with their hand, not letting the momentum of the slide fully chamber a round. This has nothing to do with lack of strength - just being timid and unfamiliar with guns thinking that letting the slide snap into place will cause a KABOOM.

[38super]

Some misconceptions here:

1. Revolvers do jam, and if it does, you will not be able to clear it without tools.

2. Muzzle flash from revolvers is more severe than a pistol, and will cause temporarily blindness before the rods in your eye reset. (that is using it at night)

[pax]

The issue I see with weaker hands is one of being able to actuate a slide.

I have been working as an assistant instructor and then as an instructor at a fairly busy shooting school for approximately 6 years now. In all of that time, I have still never met a healthy adult who could not be taught to rack the slide of a semi-automatic pistol. (Please do note the word "healthy" in that sentence: arthritis and related conditions do take their toll.)

Generally, we show people the easy way to rack the slide and they're immediately able to do it. Some need to be shown more than once and take a bit longer to understand the technique. It's usually a 30-second job to teach them, although sometimes it's a 10-minute job. It never takes longer than that (although it might feel longer to a student who is struggling to learn). Because racking a slide isn't about strength, but simply about technique, I've never met any healthy adult, male or female, who couldn't be taught how to rack the slide.

During that same time frame, I have met several people who simply did not have the finger strength to pull the trigger of a DA revolver even once. And I have lost track of the number of people who did not have the finger strength to pull that DA trigger while keeping the muzzle on target. Pulling a DA trigger is not a matter of technique -- it's pure strength, and not everyone has the strength to manage it or to manage it smoothly.

If hand strength is really a concern, get your beginner an appropriately sized semi-auto, one that fits their hands and has soft springs. And teach them the easy way to rack the slide.

pax

[rodwhaincamo]

For me it seems I'm much more accurate with an auto when fast firing. And it seems to me that an auto is easy enough. A friend wants a handgun for HD and figued an auto is the way for him to go since he has a highly intelligent/curious little boy. Feels he can keep his auto handy with the magazine seperate for safety. Makes some sense from that perspective I guess.

[38super]

Your eye blindspot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_spot_(vision)

Using Rod's Regent technique shooting at night.
http://regentsprep.org/Regents/physics/phys09/ceyes/sensing.htm

You do not want want to use a gun that has a huge muzzle flash (no barrels shorter than 4 inch) and the best ammo for night use is one that flashes RED. Not white, yellow or orange, so test your ammo through your SD gun at night.

That way you do not increase the time delay between rods reset and increase your blindspot.

[NRAhab]

It's not technically muzzle flash, it's the flash from the cylinder gap. Saying that "revolvers have more muzzle flash" than auto pistols ignores a whole raft of variables in both pistols including barrel length, ammo type, etc. I think that instead of worrying about the color of my muzzle flash, I should probably spend that time practicing my actual shooting skills.

[38super]

The colour of the flash will depend how long it will take your eyes reset. Sorry, you are wrong. You are technically right about muzzle flash though.

[38super]

I challenge you to fire a THV round and tell me the time it takes before you can fire the second shot on a target? 3 seconds, maybe more if shot with a revolver. I am sorry, but please do not pass comments if you know nothing about the topic. No offence is intended.

[NRAhab]

I'm guessing you're not familiar with the concept of "hammers" which is two shots fired with one sight picture? They teach it at Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, and pretty much every other shooting school worth their beans.

[38super]

You actually mean trigger reset my man

[38super]

Clint Smith would laugh at you I am sad to say :D

[38super]

FYI, hammer is a term used for controlled pair or double tap with seeing your target picture. No way can do with 3 seconds delay

[NRAhab]

What? No, I don't mean trigger reset. In fact, I have no idea how trigger reset figures into the concept of night shooting. As far as hammers go, that's my point, actually. My first two shots are going to show up about 0.25 seconds apart, regardless of what the muzzle flash does to my night vision. So yeah, after that first shot from a revolver, I can shoot again before 3 seconds are up.

Actually, I'm not sure how your links to articles about the blind spot in human vision have anything to do with flash blindness from bright lights, as they're not related other than they both involve the eyes.

But I can state with 100% certainty that the relative muzzle flash of your self defense ammo should be so low on your list of "tactical concerns" that I'm shocked we're having this conversation at all.

I'll say this: if you're worried about the effects of muzzle flash on your night vision, take Gunsite's 250 course, their Fighting Handgun course. It includes a night shoot and low light shooting, as does their carbine course. You know what happens when you shoot a .223 rifle at night? You get some spots on your vision. It's not pleasant, but it does not significantly interfere with your ability to fight.

In fact, if you're REALLY worried about muzzle flash, here's a better solution. Get a good tactical light. The backlight from that will wipe out your night vision anyway, so muzzle flash won't be a concern any more.

[38super]

Do you really want to push this? I will strip the floor with you.

[NRAhab]

If for no other reason than to satisfy my sheer morbid curiousity as to what you're going to say next, yes, please continue. At the very least I can turn it into a blog post tomorrow for Gun Nuts.

[38super]

You are ignorant my friend, obviously have not been in combat before.

[38super]

Shooting on a range without tachspsychia coming into affect means nothing. You are defiinately not a veteran, maybe a wannabe

[NRAhab]

Actually a hammer is not a controlled pair - a controlled pair is two shots with two sight pictures, one for each shot. A hammer is one flash sight picture and two very rapid shots.

But that's not the point. I'm just curious as to the rational behind the whole muzzle flash thing - I mean, I've actually shot guns at night before, and I don't recall the image artifacts to be that bad. Now, it'd be probably be worse if I was waking up at 0300, but that's the whole reason I keep a light next to my bed. I don't WANT to shoot in the dark, I want to be able to see well, so if I have a surefire pointed at my bedroom door, "night vision" isn't really part of the equation.

Did you mean: tachypsychia? Because if so, that has nothing to do with night vision, tachypsychia is more like the tunnel vision effect that people experience in stressful situations. Time dilation, etc.

Tachypsychia is a neurological condition that alters the perception of time, usually induced by physical exertion, drug use, or a traumatic event. It is sometimes incorrectly referred to by martial arts instructors and self defense experts as the Tachy Psyche effect. For someone affected by tachypsychia, time perceived by the individual either lengthens, making events appear to slow down, or contracts, objects appearing as moving in a speeding blur. It is believed that tachypsychia is induced by a combination of high levels of dopamine and norepinephrine, usually during periods of great physical stress and/or in violent confrontation.

[38super]

exactly, it increases your blind spots

[DeathRodent]

I leave my Taurus 4 inch .357 loaded with .38 special +p starfires as my "bedside" gun many nights.

I've had if for around 15 years and it works just fine.

Plus, it is stainless and I won't be upset if it gets scratched or taken away by the police (if I did ever have to use it in self defense).

I wouldn't feel the same about my Colt Python.

Then again some nights I have my Beretta 9000 as my bedside gun - I know they aren't popular but this gun shoots great for me and I got a great deal when I bought it.

With either gun its the person that will be the biggest deciding factor in what happens.

[38super]

you can control it by training correctly. Sul techniques re-enforces 360 degree awareness.

[NRAhab]

exactly, it increases your blind spots

...which has nothing to do with muzzle flash. In fact, gunfight survivors who experienced tachypsychia often that they don't remember hearing the report of their weapon or seeing the muzzle flash from their weapon due to the effects of the adrenal gland opening the throttle to "11".

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, but what exactly is the point you're trying to make? "Muzzle flash is bad"? Because if that's the case, then sure, muzzle flash is bad. But worrying about the impact of muzzle flash in your night vision is probably not the most, or second most, or third most, or even 231st most important thing you should be worried about.

[38super]

Muzzle flash is bad, it will impair your next shot. If you have ever been in a gunsfight, 1 or 3 seconds being blind is not a good thing if your target is moving.

[38super]

Rod's regent teaches you to look at your target as if you were squint to get a sight picture.

[NRAhab]

Okay. So your point is that 1, muzzle flash is bad (correct). Your second point is that you will go blind from muzzle flash from a common pistol for 1-3 seconds. You are incorrect. You can't really tapdance around it much more than that, but if you talk to people that have actually shot people in low/no-light conditions, while they do experience artifacts in their vision, it is generally not on the scale of 1-3 seconds of blindess.

Mind you, I'm talking about pistols and carbines here - if someone lights off a flashbang, a grenade, any kind of HE round in your general area then yes, you'll experience much more severe flash blindness.

However, if as a shooter you're concerned about visual impairment from muzzle flash during a low-light encounter in your home, then again I'd reiterate that you should get a good tactical light, or better yet "turn the lights on." I'm not too worried about "giving away my position" to a burglar or intruder, since I'm going to yelling "I have a gun and I'm calling the cops" at the top of my lungs over the alarm system anyway.

[38super]

So what are you going to do, use FBI technique, Harrries, neck technique or what ? What is a good tatical light ? You really have now idea

[38super]

Have you actually been in combat ?

[NRAhab]

Me personally? I'm not going to use a flashlight technique. If the alarm goes off at 0300, I'm going to turn the bedroom light on. If I need a tactical light, my M4gery has a Crimson Trace MVF-515 light/laser foregrip on it.

[38super]

fair enough. I am here to offer advice, I do not seek confrontations, but I will not accept bull**** either. Crimpson is a good product.

[pax]

And... this one's done.

pax