You've got 57 seconds or less

[ZeSpectre]

I was watching some older recorded tv when I ran into this start of a CSI Miami episode. It shows a pretty brutal, multi-person, home invasion. From doorbell ring to end of scene the whole thing runs just 57 seconds and from initial "somethings wrong" to the first gunshot it's only about 31 seconds.

Dramatization or no, I think it's a bit of an eye opener with regards to just how fast this sort of crime can actually unfold and is precisely why I tend to be armed even in my own home and why you never just open the door for anybody.

Dial up warning...video clip.
The Clip HERE (http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/zespectre/?action=view&current=CSIMiami_57secondhomeinvasion.flv).

[GeauxTide]

Yep, 45 is always in my hand and I never open door blind.

[Deaf Smith]

Only takes me 5 seconds to reach one of the .38s. No problem.

[Xanatos]

Just timed myself, less than 1 second to pull out my combat knife from where I sleep, less than 6 seconds to get to my handgun, less than 5 seconds to get to my AR-15, and less than 12 seconds to build my secondary AR-15 (I keep it in two pieces in my desk drawer with a loaded mag).

[johnwilliamson062]

I woke up one night to something crawling through my 2nd floor window. had the 11-87 on it with in 10 seconds. Raccoon. Froze. I had a round chambered at this point but racked it just to make a point and it skirted off. Unless you have kids and are worried about them I think it is foolich not to have SOMETHING handy. Carry on body when you are awake and in nightstand drawer or something when asleep if you have kids.

[Lee Lapin]

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/filabrasileiro.htm

X 3...

Plus one Brittany spaniel to wake them all up, if anything happens.

lpl

[Powderman]

All posts are valid, but don't miss the valid point, driven home by the video...do NOT open your door blindly, at any time!

If you don't have a solid core door, get one. Reinforce it, and install minimum 1" deadbolts, in a solid, heavy frame.

Can you make it totally kickproof? Of course not. But, the first impact against the door should be a "go" signal in the race of your life. Get away from the door, and get a gun on the point of entry--NOW!

If you have children, train them until they know that at the first unnatural sound, they head right for your safe room or gathering area.

Got teenagers? Get them involved in the plan, too.

Consider the video clip. What would have happened if:
a. The teen had answered the door with his body offset to it, without opening it?
b. Without answering the door, they would have utilized a secondary viewing device to see who was outside?
c. Upon seeing the masks, son breaks away, and heads over to grab his carbine of choice. Dad, seeing his son run, draws handgun until the door is covered by son--then goes and gets his long gun of choice. Mom goes immediately to get her long gun of choice, takes out the cell phone and dials 911.

The dogs are going nuts by now--unless they are Schutzhunden or have similar training; they would be standing at watch, ready.

NOW, picture the BG's kicking the door in, walking in and experiencing the "ohnosecond"--that small fraction of time right before the consequences hit, that you realize that you have really, TRULY screwed up. :eek::D

[ZeSpectre]

Powderman,
Excellent run-down. The only thing I can think to add is that this is a great example of having a "code word" that lets everyone else know that this is a maximum danger situation without taking the time (which you might not have) to give an explanation and orders. Heck it really could be as simple as saying "code-red".

[N.H. Yankee]

1-2 seconds for gun to be in hand when in bed, a gun is almost always within reach of me or my wife. I have 2 dogs one is a 100lb snoring beast with no sense of humor, and the other is a ankle biting alarm system that sleeps with 2 ears and 1 eye open. We have a part time PD , wasn't that many years ago we had NO PD. Response time is, we might get there before the medical examiner.

I have had an encounter at the door at about 3 am with a guy who murdered a cop about 2-3 weeks later. He was begging to come in to use the phone, we didn't have dogs then. I had the door frame protecting me as much as possible, I had my S&W performance center shorty forty in hand, he had his body at a position that I couldn't see his right hand.

He said his friends were drunk and threw him out of the car. He needed to call someone, I said give me the number I'll call, he insisted he had to call. After a 10 minute exchange I told to leave or the police would be coming. This was a bluff as we had no PD. I live on a steep hill, I went to the front window and what do I see, no headlights, but TAIL LIGHTS! Just as I thought, called the PD next town over, he tried the same thing and got greeted with a shotgun.

[skydiver3346]

:eek: Yep, it goes down fast when it happens.

However, I can reach my Glock 21 (on top of my nightstand) in about two seconds. My Jack Russell can hear a flea pass gas at a 100 yards. He is always alert and barks at the slightest unusual noise. Bottom line is make sure your home is secure, all doors and windows locked. But more than anything, HAVE A PLAN and be deliberate in your actions......

[ZeSpectre]

It's interesting how many of us here really do have "layered" security even if we don't think of it that way.

A layer of alarms (to let us know something is up) be it an alarm system or dogs or whatever.

A layer of "static" defense (secured doors and windows of some degree of solidity)

A layer of "active" defense (ourselves, our training, possibly dogs again, and a "ready plan")

A layer of "backup" (one or more ways to call for law-enforcement or other backup.

A layer of "bailout" (for example the wife and I have several ways to get the heck out of the house if we really needed to).

Home security and beefed up doors and windows have been a constant source of discussion with the remodeling that we're doing to our house right now.

[CWPinSC]

Powderman,
Excellent run-down.

I liked it, too. I'll add to be sure the door frame is at least doubled 2-bys. Make sure the hinge pins can't be driven out. Use #8 or #10 x 3" wood screws in the hinge and door lock plates. Install a brass or steel plate behind the locks. Install the dead bolt above waist level - it's harder to kick in. If there's glass anywhere in the door, make sure the dead bolt is double-keyed. Install, and use, a camera or peep hole.

And echoing other posts - NEVER open the door blindly.

[Dannyl]

Unfortunately it may be so fast that if you do not have the gun with you it may be too late.

about 6 weeks ago one of the members in my pin-shooting club was attacked in his house by two armed thugs; his wife answered the door which they kicked in, and as soon as they were in they opened fire without even talking.

He had his pistol on him and managed to kill one, wound the other, so he and his two children survived.

One could say that this is SA and not the US and that here crime is rampant and very violent, absolutely true. but rather learn from this and prepare yourself accordingly. Like others have said above, have a sound plan (get a friend to check your plan for things you may have missed?) and get as many of your family as you can to understand the plan and what is expected of them if things go wrong.

Personally, I always have a firearm where I can reach it without having to move from where I am, sad, uncomfortable, safer.



Brgds,

Danny

[Stevie-Ray]

precisely why I tend to be armed even in my own home and why you never just open the door for anybody.This says it all for me. I stay armed all the time, and if unable, my EDC stays within arm's reach and is either in my hand or in my holster whenever I answer the door, after attempting to ID, of course.

[markj]

11-87 on it with in 10 seconds. Raccoon. Froze. I had a round chambered at this point but racked it just to make a point and it skirted off.

You racked a semi auto? How did the coon know what the sound meant?

[wally626]

Quote:
11-87 on it with in 10 seconds. Raccoon. Froze. I had a round chambered at this point but racked it just to make a point and it skirted off.
You racked a semi auto? How did the coon know what the sound meant?

Why waste the round, what if the raccoon had come back with friends:D, you may have needed every round you had.

[JohnH1963]

Besides the obvious procedure of looking before opening the door and standing off-center to the door, a reinforced security screen door with deadbolt would have prevented any forced entry. In fact, some of these security screens might deflect or greatly slow bullets coming through the door. In some instances, they are stronger then the actual doors.

A viewport or sidewindow would have assisted the person opening the door in identifying the individual, but what if the person at the front door was dressed as a meter man or deliveryman? The viewport would not assist the person opening the door if the person at the door disguised themselves.

This is one thing your house should be equipped with...

http://www.google.com/products?hl=en&source=hp&q=security+screen+doors&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=w7zTStPhH9C5lAeXwuyoCg&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CCkQrQQwAw

[vox rationis]

c. Upon seeing the masks, son breaks away, and heads over to grab his carbine of choice. Dad, seeing his son run, draws handgun until the door is covered by son--then goes and gets his long gun of choice. Mom goes immediately to get her long gun of choice, takes out the cell phone and dials 911.

hehe, sounds like this family needs a complement of Papa, Mama, and Baby UBR's, that's Ugly Black Rifles :D

Here's a little doodad that can be the very last layer of security defense that you can put on your bedroom door that can buy you more time.

http://gallery.drfaulken.com/d/2066-1/IMG_6326.JPG


This is not my review, but I agree with the reviewer: The Master Lock 265D Door Security Bar (http://journal.drfaulken.com/master-lock-265d-door-security-bar-review/).

I've found that it works best when you use it exactly as Master Lock suggests, and when you slightly kick the floor piece toward the door "jamming" the door knob part under the door knob securely. And since it collapses you can take it traveling for those seedy motels one can often find oneself in :eek:

[Deaf Smith]

I've got the Master Lock and it works fine. Nothing better to trip up an invaider when they try to kock the door down. Gives you a extra time!

[Stevie-Ray]

Just bought one of those Masterlock devices for my doorwall in the new house. I might be buying several more later.

[Kyo]

dog hears someone coming when they are downstairs stepping on the first step to my house. there are 20 or so steps. even trained people will take about 5-10 seconds to reach the top let alone the door. the dog is barking already at this point, and i am fully aware.
Depending on what happens next, is up to the others on the other side of the door. Good to have dogs.

[dabigguns357]

First i have night vision camera's that record everything everyday.then the dog will go nuts,after that and if they still get in,i have installed the same camera's down and through out the house.I can see anything moving and now i have baby monitors set through each room,so i can hear anything as well.On the inside of the bedroom door i have a sliding lock and the door lock too.By the time they realize whats going on i'll already have my shotgun belt on and be heading for the kids room while wife calles 911 with her own set of guns.
http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp354/dabigguns357/Picture065.jpg

[Ricky]

I think living year in and year out feeling that close to mortal combat would drive me crazy.
Do you guys really walk around inside your house with a pistol on your hip? Seems a bit extreme to me. Sure, I have motion sensor lights and a dog. I don't open my door to strangers and I have a loaded gun or two put away but some of you guys might be a bit paranoid. Do you make love to your wife with your gun on you? You must use a shoulder holster then huh?
I realize that this is a shooters forum. Maybe some of you guys need to put down the gun, step away from the computer, take your dog to the park or something. Not everyone is out to kill you.

[JohnKSa]

In case it escapes everyone's notice, we all believe that there are only 3 kinds of people in the world when it comes to level of preparation. Here are the three groups of people stated in the first person--as it would naturally be when one of us thinks it about another.

Group 1:
Normal, well-adjusted people who wisely maintain the same prudent but imminently reasonable level of preparation that I do.

Group 2:
There are complacent, sheep with a victim mentality who foolishly choose to wander through their lives without preparing themselves to the same level that I maintain.

Group 3:
There are crazy paranoid mall ninjas who strain to achieve a ridiculously extreme level of preparation far above what I have chosen as proper.


Now, with that out of the way, how about we discuss this topic without resorting to insults and slurs aimed toward those who don't fall perfectly into Group 1.

...and if you think that is merely a suggestion then you read it wrong. ;)

[dabigguns357]

It only sounds like i'm paranoid,i like the term prepared,and yes i wear a gun on me at all times,i've been doing it since 1993 why stop now. :D.I live in a very safe little town to but i also live kinda out from people,so if something did happen,who would hear other than me.The camera's are there for more than just intruders,they catch my son's playing and they have even caught my eldest where he shouldn't have been,like down by the creek,yea he's 11 but i still keep an eye on him,oh and if he should do something so funny i'll also have it on tape so i can win 10,000 dollers on AFV.The baby monitors are in place because i have a 2 year old and a 2 month old and i need to hear where they are and what they are doing.

Btw how many of you would like to know who was at your door without even getting up out of bed or the couch.This works great for those pesty inlaws,salesman,religious types or even your own family who you don't want to see.Camera's are great for seeing people you don't know and what they are up to.I added a second camera to the front porch so i can see from the waist up especially their hands,and it is also equipped with sound so i can hear if there is more than one.This can be useful before answering the door.Hey if nothing else you'll know what your inlaws think of you and you spouse.

On a funny note,back last summer i had 2 tv's turn on with my camera's going and my dad came up and while waiting for me to answer the door he let one go(farted) and i could hear it through both the tv's,I'm just glad i couldn't smell em.:barf:

[Bigmustard]

Not everyone is out to kill you.
Yes that is true, but it only takes one. I don't live in a good part of town. Upon leaving my apartment complex I can hardly cross the street without seeing at least one prostitute. Being a white male in my area people look at me funny. I live on the third floor and my dog goes nuts anytime she hears a car door close or someone walking up the steps. My bed is pushed up next to the window and I keep my Mossberg 500 right on the window sill. I know a lot of people think I'm "paranoid" and what not but on the off chance my number is called, at least I'll be the one telling the police what happened instead of the Police explaining what they think had happened to my loved ones.

[ZeSpectre]

I think living year in and year out feeling that close to mortal combat would drive me crazy.
I don't think I'll ever understand why folks assume that preparedness means you are always on "knife edge". Does a discussion of having multiple fire alarms around your house and a security system linked to the fire department mean someone lives in mortal terror of a fire breaking out at any minute? Not usually.

Do you guys really walk around inside your house with a pistol on your hip? Seems a bit extreme to me.
Yes some of us do (remember, not everyone lives in an urban environment with close neighbors and city services immediately available).

Can you articulate why it's any more extreme than any other form of insurance?

Sure, I have motion sensor lights and a dog. I don't open my door to strangers and I have a loaded gun or two put away but some of you guys might be a bit paranoid.
Why would we be paranoid? We're armed.
Oh and some of us have lived through something like the "57 second" scenario and refuse to ever be there again. Others of us know someone who has lived through the "57 second" scenario and learned that this stuff DOES happen.

Sure the odds might be pretty low, but as I've said many times before, self defense really isn't about the odds, it's about the consequences of not being prepared that one time you really need it.

Do you make love to your wife with your gun on you? You must use a shoulder holster then huh?
How astoundingly juvenile. When you are ready to have a conversation with the grown-ups feel free to come on back and visit.

I realize that this is a shooters forum. Maybe some of you guys need to put down the gun, step away from the computer, take your dog to the park or something. Not everyone is out to kill you.

We aren't hurting anyone with our additional line of personal defense/insurance. Why does that threaten you so much that you feel the need to resort to childish tactics and also imply that we are unstable?

The bottom line is that things like the "57 second" scenario do actually happen and, as I think the video amply demonstrates, once the scenario has started there is absolutely NO time to come up with a game plan. That being the case it is hardly imprudent to have at least considered the possibility enough to come up with a pre-planned response that suits your personal assessment of the risk level.

I say personal assessment because I know my own preparations and emergency plans are quite different now (in a somewhat rustic setting) than they were when I had the more immediately "on tap" resources of the DC Metro area.

[vox rationis]

We aren't hurting anyone with our additional line of personal defense/insurance. Why does that threaten you so much that you feel the need to resort to childish tactics and also imply that we are unstable?

Well said John and Ze.

It never fails to amaze me how people have to attack behavior or choices that they themselves don't partake in, in an attempt to validate the fact that they don't partake in that type of behavior. Such attacks are just a superficial attempt at protecting one's own ego from the possibility that the person doing something different might indeed be right!

I personally don't carry a gun around the house. Would I do it in the right circumstances? Of course. Like others have said, if you live on a large and secluded property where crime might not be much of an issue, or if in fact you live in a dense populated area where crime is a huge factor, and for whatever reason you don't have a good layered security system, then in both of those instances, precisely because one may be susceptible to a home invasion, it may be extremely prudent to have a firearm on one's person. What's the use of having a loaded gun that you can't get to?

But beyond practical considerations, the decision to be carrying in one's home is entirely a personal decision that has no ramification on another individual's existential well being. So even if I decide to not carry in the home for whatever reason, what business of mine is it to decide to be a cheeky bastard and start criticizing another person's decision to carry at home or on their property? The question's rhetorical, I have no such business. People sometimes decide that not only are they smarter and more enlightened than the other guy, but dang it, they are going to berate the other person for not sharing their own enlightened state of being. I prefer it actually when these "enlightened" people speak up however, because then it is easier to identify the foolish.

OK, I'll stop ranting now :D

[wjg686]

It's become a part of my wardrobe, like my belt, knife, housekeys, and handkerchief. The alternative is to come home and lock the gun upstairs, the only other place besides my 4 o'clock where I know the gun is safe and inaccessible to others. And it does me no good there if I need it in a hurry. I haven't so far, but a friend's parents were beaten in their home by a pair of guys who had delivered furniture the day before, the wife held at gunpoint while the husband was taken to his bank to withdraw funds. It ended well after she escaped and called police. It happened in my upscale suburb of Columbus, OH, just a couple of years ago.

I am not afraid of crime. I am afraid of being helpless against it.

[dabigguns357]

I've said it before and i'll say it again.


IT'S BETTER TO HAVE A GUN ON YOUR HIP THAN ONE TO YOUR HEAD.

[kiov]

I know many (non-gun) people would feel I am paranoid for carrying my 9 when I go out at night, and for having a .45 within reach of the bed.

The fact is I hardly ever think about either gun and don't expect to be attacked at any moment....that is I'm not in "paranoid...scared" mode.

Just like I feel better with some savings in the bank, and some life insurance for my family, I also feel better with a gun handy. Its not being paranoid, its being prudent. Big difference.

So what if someone wants to wear their side-arm? Some of us really like our knives and guns and are happy to have them around even when we don't need them.

We get enough attitude about being "gun nuts" without having one of our own insult us.

[koolminx]

That show was a SHOW.... How many times to you get armed thugs breaking into your home looking for Microfiche or a couple hundred Grand in cash you keep on your nightstand etc...

That to me, was NOT how a home invasion occurs. Most robberies occur on an empty home do they not?

Those dudes when in for Revenge and something specific, to a written script which I fully believe has no relevance or basis on a real home invasion.

I didn't bother reading many of the replies, so I'm sorry if I repeated anything...

But it seems HOKEY to me, having folks think that that's what happens when some bad guy's come for your Plasma TV and your jewelry...

Besides that little point, if you DID have bad folks "After you" you'd Never let your 12 year old sun open the door to a knock....

[ZeSpectre]

which I fully believe has no relevance or basis on a real home invasion.
The point isn't what the bad-guys are after, the point is how fast things happen. If you believe that things like this don't happen then you believe incorrectly. I have -personally- had to work follow up at crime scenes (that is scenes, plural) that were horribly close to the scenario posted. An active and very fast home invasion with extreme violence initially followed in one case by several hours of gang-rape.

Rare? Yes, fortunately that sort of thing has been extremely rare in my personal experience.

Unrealistic? I don't have the words to express how much I really wish people didn't do things like this.

One Killed, Two Wounded In Overnight Home Invasion (http://www.fox2now.com/ktvi-home-invasion-cop-shot-100509,0,6467291.story)
Woman Sexually Assaulted In Her Home (http://wcco.com/local/sexual.assault.waite.2.1231412.html)
Man charged with home-occupied burglary (http://www.postbulletin.com/newsmanager/templates/localnews_story.asp?z=28&a=419194)
2 men arrested after Sabin, Minn., homeowner bound to chair (https://secure.forumcomm.com/?publisher_ID=1&article_id=254176&CFID=116347139&CFTOKEN=24736184)

But more to the point, if it does happen, it usually happens VERY FAST so having some sort of plan ahead of time is pretty darned important.

[koolminx]

Dang! I had no idea :o

I'm glad I'm not living near the areas where majority of these things occur.

[ZeSpectre]

Well, it's one of the BIG reasons I moved away from the DC metro area!

[BillCA]

Ask any cop...
Ask any victim...
You'll hear the same words about personal crimes.

It all happened so fast...

And it's true for those who are unprepared or who live with their heads in the clouds. Things happen within seconds. Some crimes are over in less than one minute. And in that time your life can be changed dramatically. Loss of a loved one, serious injury to your child or you could become a parapalegic. Or all three.

That show was a SHOW.... How many times to you get armed thugs breaking into your home looking for Microfiche or a couple hundred Grand in cash you keep on your nightstand etc...

That to me, was NOT how a home invasion occurs. Most robberies occur on an empty home do they not?

Those dudes when in for Revenge and something specific, to a written script which I fully believe has no relevance or basis on a real home invasion.

You've read stories about how the police raid the wrong address? The criminals sometimes do it too. A year ago last August, I heard two guys arguing whether "This is his crib" outside through the open window by my home office desk. I heard bushes rustling and peeked out the window to see two men with skimasks trying to open the bedroom window of a neighbor's townhome. I dialed 911 on the cordless and grabbed my .357 bodyguard, then grabbed the 20-ga near the front door. Just as 911 answered and I told them of a burglary-in-progress, my neighbor opened the drapes and pointed his M1A at the pair. From my open window came the pump shotgun noise and they retreated in great haste. A quick description to 911 and fifteen minutes later the PD arrived saying they had two men in custody. It was our burglars.

They'd planned to hit someone else's place who lived a block away. Only Rocket Scientist #1 had only been there once... in the dark... stoned. :rolleyes: Would it have been so bad? You tell me -- police recovered a stolen Kel-Tec .32 and a 9mm from their car, plus a crowbar and a claw hammer with traces of blood on it. Both men had prior convictions for robbery, ADW and mayhem (disfigurement).

[KingEdward]

we have the same rules at home for all three residents regardless
of time of day/night, regardless of if someone is expected or unexpected
at the door(s).

1) Do not unlock the door. Period.

2) Use the window (one particular door) or blind (the other) to view
who is on property.

3) speak loudly from behind locked door "state your full name, state your
business"

about 7 in 10 folks cannot listen or respond properly or walk away
so the door remains locked.

about 2 in 10 look around and knock louder but still cannot respond
properly so door remains locked.

about 1 in 10 answer properly and then they are asked to explain further and show credentials (or actual paperwork/products) for why they are knocking.

unless they are known neighbor or friend or family the door usually remains
locked. Unless I need a magazine subscription or two.

I could go home right now and knock on the side door and my daughter
would start with rule #1 and soon I would hear, "state your full name"

[Daugherty16]

I can't believe anyone on this forum would question another's decision as to how much preparation is appropriate. I carry every day i can, and almost always in my own home. Why?

I live in a wonderful neighborhood. Big houses, 2 acre lots. Same kind of town the Petits lived in.
http://crime.about.com/b/2007/07/24/home-invasion-shocks-connecticut-town.htm

I could never live with myself as a man, a father, or husband if something like this were to happen and i might have prevented it, but did nothing to prepare. The sad and shocking truth is, bad things sometimes happen to good people. Since you don't know when it might happen, you just have to be prepared. Or live with the risk of being unprepared. It's that simple.

People who are not irresponsible, still buy health insurance, life insurance, auto insurance, homeowners insurance. Why would anyone then question our choices regarding self-defense insurance?

[minniedog2]

A real eye opener and a support for training and a plan that is practiced regularly

[wyatt3d]

That to me, was NOT how a home invasion occurs. Most robberies occur on an empty home do they not?

Those dudes when in for Revenge and something specific, to a written script which I fully believe has no relevance or basis on a real home invasion.



On a Sunday afternoon about 5 yrs ago a buddy of mine had 5 guys rush into his house (through his unlocked door) while him, his wife, his 7yo son, and their 1yo baby were eating dinner.

They were wearing all black with ski masks. The robbers tied them up and gagged them while they ransacked the house. My friend had a bruise on his temple where they were shoving the gun in the side of his head and he watched helplessly as his son passed out in fear.

My buddy owned a small remodeling business and the guy that organized it turned out to be a disgruntled ex-employee. Luckily no one was seriously injured but the whole family was so shaken that they litterally went into hiding until the guy was caught.

He said it happened so fast he probably wouldn't have had time to act had he been armed. I don't think he would start a gunfight with family in the line of fire anyway.

This happened in a nice, semi-rural area.

[KingEdward]

thanks Wyatt.

thankful all of them were physically alright.

I can't imagine the mental anguish.

The lesson I take from this it is important to keep all doors locked even
while inside at one's leisure.

[JohnKSa]

I've read through many of the Clayton Cramer's self-defense Blog incidents and I find it surprising to see how many of them start with a criminal entering the house through an unlocked door.

[MTT TL]

Not just unlocked door but open garage doors are pretty popular as well.

[threegun]

I had a thug kick in my front door with a single kick (deadbolts are garbage as the kick shattered the jamb). Thankfully my alarm scared them away and we weren't home at the time......12 noon:eek: It did get me thinking........one kick and a bad guy could be in the middle of my home instantly. Lotta good my AR's and Remington 1100/870 and Glocks are going to do with zero warning. I simply hardened my home with burglar bars, motion lights, and now a dvr/camera system.

Still have the firearms at the ready within seconds however now I have more time to react and can see trouble coming.

[A-Roe]

Im glad this issue was brought up, its been on my mind lately as well. Ive been keeping my 4506 hidden, and it takes at least a good 10+ seconds of rumaging to grab it. That, combined with the fact that my door has no peep hole and seems to have a hollow core, makes me think, maybe my gun should be a little closer at hand.

BUT, i live in an apartment building with a real sense of community, everyone knows everyone, the walls are thin enough that if someone broke into my place the neighbors would hear it. Also, my door is facing my neighbors door, maybe 4 feet between my door and theirs, and thats something i think might also be discouraging for a thief. So all of that, makes me feel like maybe im a little paranoid if i keep the gun lying around..

But since its on my mind, i think for the present Ive decided to start leaving it out, and hiding it when im away... what do you guys think?

[threegun]

I went 10 years thinking that the two guns I had (one at each end of the house) in instant access lockers would be all I needed. Then the break in exposed a serious weakness. If I was sitting on the dining room table or in my kitchen I would be exposed to the bad guy with no way of getting to my guns without them seeing me. Never mind if I was on the pot. My options were to carry on me or cause the bad guy to expend much more effort and thus much more time to get in my home.

No neighborhood is safe enough for me not to be prepared for a home invasion. Former Tampa Mayor Dick Greco stopped a home invasion in his home.........a gated community with security guards.......in the very upscale part of town no less......and way extra police patrols (you know how politicians take care of themselves LOL) still a thug managed to get in the sub division and force entry into the home. You just never know.

[ZeSpectre]

A-Roe said:

BUT, i live in an apartment building with a real sense of community, everyone knows everyone, the walls are thin enough that if someone broke into my place the neighbors would hear it.

They might hear it, but the question is would anyone do anything?
See "Bystander Effect" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect)

A-Roe said:
But since its on my mind, i think for the present Ive decided to start leaving it out, and hiding it when im away... what do you guys think?

I'm not sure what you mean by "leaving it out" but I'll be clear about my own standards (I'm sure others will jump in with their own opinions). I either have a gun on my person and under my constant control, or locked in a "fast access" safe. I try very hard to never, ever, leave a functional firearm just laying somewhere unsecured. Yeah dad had a loaded revolver on a top shelf in the front hall and a loaded 12GA just sitting on hooks over the back door for years when I was a kid (I grew up on a rural farm) but that sort of thing just doesn't sit well with me these days.

Yes safes can be expensive (even the little pistol safes) but it is some of the best spent money you'll shell out on firearms!

Honeywell "drawer safe". Surprisingly solid. (Walmart (http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5127164&findingMethod=rr))

Stack-On Strong Box (http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=11071342&findingMethod=rr) (what I bolted to my bedframe). Watch the batteries, they go dead (about every 8 months) without any real warning so check your safe once in a while to make sure the batteries are good.

GunVault (http://www.gunvault.com/) (the real deal for fast access)

[MTT TL]

I guess I am more like your dad. I will leave rifle hanging on the hooks in condition three and a shotgun by the bed in the same shape. But we do live kind of in the country. When I am not at Thi that is.

[vox rationis]

I live in a wonderful neighborhood. Big houses, 2 acre lots. Same kind of town the Petits lived in.
http://crime.about.com/b/2007/07/24/...ticut-town.htm

Thanks for reminding us about the Petit home invasion story (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/07/25/national/main3095614.shtml). If that doesn't open some people's eyes, I don't know what will.

[ChaseSmallwood]

I am just 21 so I'm new to being able to carry my handgun. My brother is the type to ask "why do I feel the need to carry". When I do have a gun on me no one knows and it doesn't effect anyone else. I tell him the chances of being a victim of violent crime is far greater than winning the lottery, but the stakes of losing are lot higher. I use this example, every time we go to the bar he worries about having a condom. I tell "do you really need that every time you go". His reply " no but when I need it, it sure is handy". Question answered.

[CARGUY2244]

Home invaders practice equal opportunity - geographical location of your residence offers no protection. If they want in bad enough, they'll get in. Critical to survival are warning and time delay. Secure doors and windows delay access, alarms, cameras, and lights alert, and good dogs add additional layers of warning, time delay, and protection. Immediate access to heavy small arm firepower, a cell phone, and a well rehearsed plan, along with warning and delay, dramatically weigh the odds in favor of the legal resident against all but the most severe opponents, such as a bonafide paramilitary unit.
Keeping a loaded pistol on the table at dinner, on the end table in the living room, on the vanity in the bathroom, and under a pillow in bed, plus ready access to a 12 guage shotgun and a semiautomatic rifle, along with dogs, and locked doors, eliminate the need for any paranoia.
It's just being prepared.

[ZeSpectre]

Critical to survival are warning and time delay.
Repeated for emphasis. If you don't have the time to react no amount of plans are going to help you!

[bambam1723]

That's why I have a large dog. A dog is worth 3 seconds (amount of time it will slow down an intruder before being immobilized). That's all the time I need to get to a gun.

[vox rationis]

Again, apropos, regarding warning time and delay of entry of the intruder(s), here is this unfortunate story regarding a young mother abducted from her own home..I wonder if her door was open, or is she answered the door to speak to him, etc.?

"...On Jan. 17, 2008, Denise Lee, 21, was home with her two sons, ages 10 months and 2 years, when she was abducted by Michael King, authorities said. Nathan Lee came home to find his sons alone and his wife's keys and phone sitting on a chair. He called 911...."

Link to Story (http://news.aol.com/article/after-wifes-abduction-and-murder-man/732268?icid=main|main|dl1|link2|http%3A%2F%2Fnews.aol.com%2Farticle%2Fafter-wifes-abduction-and-murder-man%2F732268)

[vox rationis]

That's why I have a large dog. A dog is worth 3 seconds (amount of time it will slow down an intruder before being immobilized). That's all the time I need to get to a gun.

A dog or dogs is a good idea, but I have to tell you that I personally think that people put to too much trust in their dogs. I know that this will upset people, but not all dogs will be aggressive enough, or even loud enough. I'd still have a good layered security system, with the dog being just one part, but if I was forced to choose, I'd ditch the dog and keep the otherwise good layered security system, IMHO.

[wilson133]

Your standards of what amounts to paranoia will change when 2 guys come through your girl friend's front door while you are on the couch. What saved the situation was my habit of visualization of possible scenarios. I was up with a gun in my hand before they got 2 steps in the door, and it was not the gun I was carrying. I got off of the couch and retrieved a holstered handgun, drew it and turned into a stance all without conscious thought. In other words, I remember the door starting to come open and I remember facing them with a gun, nothing in between.
My experience taught me that training my reflexive reaction is the most important thing. If I had to think about it, it probably would have been too late.
There is always at least one gun to hand now, no matter where I am.
The end of the story? I was squeezing the trigger and they ran, no shots were fired.
One incident can destroy your life, preparing to win in those situations is not paranoia.

[markj]

I personally think that people put to too much trust in their dogs

:) Why just last night I walked out of my barn with a jacket over my head as it was raining, all 4 dogs went off on me. The 3 males came at me until I yelled at em and dropped the jacket. I do belive anyone else will be slowed up a lot by all 4. I also have weapons in that barn and in the house.

Those Petits had nothing as far as alarms or early warning let alone a gun handy. I sure feel for em but they could have had a bit more in the protection area.

[vox rationis]

Why just last night I walked out of my barn with a jacket over my head as it was raining, all 4 dogs went off on me. The 3 males came at me until I yelled at em and dropped the jacket. I do belive anyone else will be slowed up a lot by all 4. I also have weapons in that barn and in the house.

Sounds like your dogs are probably pretty reliable guard dogs. I've run across quite a few, one of which was actually one of mine, that wasn't as good ;)

[CARGUY2244]

Dogs as either a time delay, warning, or physical buffer...well that definitely depends on the dog(s), and the invaders tactics and manpower. An alarm system is always an additional asset.
The defender must become the aggressor immediately. It's impossible to imagine drawing weapon in an invasion situation without emptying it into the invaders.

[CARGUY2244]

Moving this in a different direction, but with the same emphasis on home security, what about entering your home?
It's 10pm, you and your family are getting home from dinner. The house appears normal in every way. As you walk through to foyer, you see the alarm panel is red, but that's normal when you open the door, until you reset it. By the time you realize it won't reset, there's another entrance open, the kids are running to the staircase. Suddenly thunder from above and 3 armed intruders are rushing down from the second floor.
That situation is as ominous as any invasion, and has no good outcome. There is no alarm, as they've been in the house for 30 minutes. There is no warning, the dogs are dead. The only buffer between you and your guests...your family. You're a long shot here.
So, who acts in advance to avoid this? Who in our audience enters and does a walk through, gun and light in hand, with the family, waiting behind, also armed if trained appropriately. We do this every time we get home, and every time we open the offfice. We also scout the perimeter before the key ever hits the door. Not paranoid, just practical.

[JohnKSa]

I would be EXTREMELY unsatisfied with an alarm like the one in your scenario that gave a response that could initially either mean all was normal OR that the house had been compromised some time in the past since the alarm had been set.

My alarm system can only respond 2 ways when I come in the front door.

A warning that tells me that the alarm is operating properly, that none of the sensors have been tripped and that I have X amount of time to cancel the alarm.

No response at all which tells me that the alarm has been defeated, wasn't set or is inoperative. That would be a signal to immediately withdraw to a safe distance and evaluate the situation. I would enter the house ONLY if there was obvious evidence leading me to believe there was no one inside.

My wife knows that if she is alone to immediately withdraw, get in her vehicle and leave the premises in haste if she doesn't get the normal signal upon opening the door or if she observes any evidence of illegal entry. She would then summon the police to come and check the premises.

[si vis pacem, para b]

I don't care if I am called paranoid or prepared. I am alive and intend to be untill I am a great grandfather!

I saw one of those TV shows that investigates a crime and follows the story untill conviction. In this real life story a guy was sentanced to death because he got an "adrenaline rush" from breaking into peoples homes, tying them up and terrorizing them. His last victim was asleep when he broke into the apartment, and it only took seconds for the intruder to be in the victims room. The victim put up a strugle and ended up being killed by this nut case.
I am wise enough to know that in any society there are nutty people that act without any logic therefore I will always be armed.

I might even get one of those thigh holsers for my wife to wear during those intimate times when I can't have my 1911 on my waistband:)
Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum. <----- My screen name says it all.

[BillCA]

It's 10pm, you and your family are getting home from dinner. The house appears normal in every way. As you walk through to foyer, you see the alarm panel is red, but that's normal when you open the door, until you reset it. By the time you realize it won't reset, there's another entrance open, the kids are running to the staircase. Suddenly thunder from above and 3 armed intruders are rushing down from the second floor.

First, I wouldn't keep an alarm system like the one you describe. If there was a change in the alarm status since it was activated, there should be some tell-tale to let me know. Red lights, blinking lights, chirping noises, etc.

My preference would be the control panel blinking like a crazy christmas tree for any sensor that was tripped. And it should be visble from the door(s) you most often use to access the house.

[CARGUY2244]

Okay...take the alarm alert out of the equation. The intruders interrupted the dedicated power source, it wasn't armed properly, it's been disabled, whatever.
Same scenario. Now what?

[Brit]

My wee two story town house, has two motion detectors, one in the garage, one in the living room, you can not enter without setting off the loud screaming siren, loud outside and in! Then my cell phone rings!

"Are you OK? your alarm is going off" My Wife had walked in with no device to open the door and turn off the detectors.

I knew she had been dropped off, so I said it is OK but I will check. I did, via phone, got back to the alarm company, "everything is fine, thank you so much". All happy.

Just $10.00 per month, worth it's weight in gold. I am sitting here typing away, Glock 19 two feet from my hand, when fully dressed, on belt.

The one thing that worries me, when thinking of my friends, the only violence they have seen has been in movies.

[JohnKSa]

Same scenario. Now what?Withdraw immediately to a safe distance and assess. There is NO way I'm going into that house if it seems that the alarm has been compromised. There could be no one there or there could be more people in there than I have rounds in my magazine.

[dabigguns357]

"Never mind if I was on the pot"

Actually there was a news story that came out about 3 years ago where guy was on the pot but had his mossberg shotgun loaded and was able to use it even when his pants were down.He didn't kill anyone but was able to repel the intruders.All he said was he was glad he had his shotgun and that nobody else was hurt.

[onthejon55]

"Never mind if I was on the pot"

I think mixing drugs and alcohol is a bad idea. :rolleyes:


Seriously though, this is one of those scenarios in which the BGs have the whole scenario planned out very well. In most real life break ins the BGs arent going to plan ahead that well and this will give you time to react.

[BuckHammer]

Seriously though, this is one of those scenarios in which the BGs have the whole scenario planned out very well. In most real life break ins the BGs arent going to plan ahead that well and this will give you time to react.
True, but it's like I always say, "Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst."

I think mixing drugs and alcohol is a bad idea.
I couldn't agree more. ;)

[threegun]

That's why I have a large dog. A dog is worth 3 seconds (amount of time it will slow down an intruder before being immobilized). That's all the time I need to get to a gun.

Are you positive? Do you carry on your person? Did you factor in reaction time? Is a gun 3 seconds away from every point in your home?

[Richarde]

Seeing as though I still live with my parents...... My mother and father aren't too fond of guns. I will try to have one hidden in every room when I get my own place. But anyway, We have a 13 yr old jack russell that will be the first sound of trouble if anything does happen. Then when she starts going off, My shotgun is three inches from my bed with a bright azz polytac mounted to it. Ill go out my door with my 80 lb lab leading the way, let her round the corner first (which is cool because she is as black as night and they'll hear her but won't see her) and once I asses the situation from the outcome of her on the attack, Ill decide what to do. I don't want to accidentally shoot the dog.

"not everyone is out to kill you"

Yeah, true, but if it is 2 or 3 in the mornin and my door is being kicked in, unless there are flashing blue lights outside, I'm not going to wait around to find out what they really want.

Yeah, I'll give them one opportunity to get on the floor and lay perfectly still or run out as fast as possible. Then (well, have yall seen the hornady tap 70mm 12g slugs, them thangs is tight) if they don't comply, I hear three inch magnum 00buck doesn't feel too swell.