Real Life - Boxed in.

[ZeSpectre]

Yup, here we are again with ANOTHER real world scenario. At this point I'm looking upwards and saying "okay, enough, let someone else have a bit of experience okay!?!"

Sunday evening. I'm coming home from Wal-Mart just after it has started to get dark and as I'm pulling into the carport I notice some guy walking down on the golf course past my house. This is, of course, not unusual at all, a lot of people shortcut over that section of the course.

I pull in, shut the vehicle off, and get out. I look around (as is my habit) and see nothing so I move to the back and open the rear door and start to reach in for the groceries when I see movement out of the corner of my eye so I straighten up to see what it is.

That same guy from the golf course is now just off the back corner of the jeep looking at me and moving towards me.

Here I am, just after dark, nobody else around that I can see or hear, boxed in between the jeep and the wall of the carport, with the car door open behind me so I can't even freakin' back up and this big, really scruffy looking, guy closing in on me with his hands out.

So I somewhat automatically go into "weapon retention" mode and turn my "gun hip" away from the guy and raise my opposite hand in a "stop there" gesture. At the same time my "gun" hand flips my cover out of the way and takes a grip on my sidearm (I have not drawn the weapon). Then in my best "command voice" I tell him "STOP, YOU NEED TO BACK UP RIGHT NOW!"

Meanwhile, my brain can't seem to decide if I need to finish a draw-down on the guy or try to crawl into the back seat of the jeep (a Cherokee SUV) and lock the door before he can get to me (the momentary mental paralysis probably lasted a split second but felt like an hour and was NOT a fun time :( )

FORTUNATELY he stopped and backed right up (I don't know if he saw the gun or not) and started saying "sorry, sorry man, I just saw your big yard and wanted to let you know that I'm for hire to rake leaves or clean gutters or anything like that".

I just looked at him and said "I do all that myself and it's way too late for a sales pitch so you need to leave...now!" and he said "sorry to bother you", turned away and wandered back down the golf course.

Pause here for several minutes to let the adrenaline wash out and make sure he has actually left the area.

So shortly after he was gone the little old lady across the street pokes her head out of her front door and asks me if everything is okay (she heard me yell and was watching everything). I say yes and she tells me that same guy was over in her yard earlier and gave her the same "handyman" line.

So we call the cops and we both give information and details and then I spent the next hour or so feeling kind-of sick from the after-event reaction.

Below is a drawing of how I was boxed in. (sorry for the crude drawing).

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/zespectre/trapped.jpg

I think from here on out I BACK the vehicle into the carport!

As always critique and commentary accepted. When we review this stuff we all learn something.

[peetzakilla]

I say very well done.


I think from here on out I BACK the vehicle into the carport!

That's an excellent idea. It would not only keep you from being "cornered" but would allow for you to open the doors for concealment as you retreat . Pretty much tells you the other guys intentions also, if you're opening doors and backing away and he's brazen enough to advance and close them.

[hogdogs]

Had you backed in, the drifter may have used the open doors as concealment to be even closer when you noticed him...
Derned if you do and derned if you don't... SA is what made you safest...
Brent

[Skans]

With gun, I would have done the same thing you did. Without a gun, or gun not immediately accessible, I would have:

1. Shut the middle door to the car;
2. get into the driver's seat,
3. Start engine and back up.

I don't like being cornered, and I'll use my car to escape if necessary.

[Mello2u]

Nicely done.

[scottaschultz]

I will probably get banned from this forum, but I don't care...

I don't understand how some of you people can live your life from one day to the next without being on massive doses of Valium or some sort of tranquilizer? For some people, it seems that EVERY situation where you encounter a "stranger" approaching you is someone meaning to do you harm.

Here is some guy who just wants to rake your leaves or clean your gutters and you resort to using your best "command voice" to get him to go away while going into "weapon retention" mode, but yet the little old lady across the street managed to dispatch this horrible "BG" without using any of those tactics.

Then everyone here congratulates you for surviving this close call with death and praises your level-headed thinking in times of a crisis. You didn't survive a brush with death! You told some poor guy who was apparently down on his luck to go away and he did.

Seriously, what on earth did you do before you started carrying a gun? Were you always that scared out of your wits every time someone approached you to the point where you believed they intended to do you bodily harm?

Scott

[koolminx]

I am not as strongly opinionated as Scott, but I do follow his sentiment slightly...

What kind of physical attitude did this fella have with his hands in front of him as he approached you? Hunched and ready to grab, or supplicating as in showing you his hands were empty? Or simply shrugging in order to give precedence of beginning a sentence?



..

[MLeake]

On the one hand, I'd be unhappy to have somebody I didn't know approach me, after dark, on my property.

On the other hand, there are legitimate reasons why somebody might do so. Looking for a place, needing directions, etc.

But the after dark piece, combined with the guy approaching to within a car length before getting a verbal ok, showed poor judgement on the part of the unknown guy.

Telling him to leave wasn't out of line. Drawing on him at that point would have been excessive.

[Skans]

The bottom line. Don't approach me at my house after dark claiming to want to rake my leaves and corner me. Even if I'm not armed (which I probably wouldn't be just out and about on my own property), I'm going to get VERY aggressive with such a person.

Unless it's Halloween and you are under the age of 14, I don't take kindly to folks bothering me on my property looking for a handout. If I was into that sort of thing, I would have joined a hippy commune long ago and lived off of the money that I could brainwash new recruits to extort from their rich mommies and daddies.

[rantingredneck]

ZeSpectre,

I've posted this story before, but I had a similar experience years ago in a parking deck at a large mall in Durham, NC. A panhandler slipped up behind me as I was putting packages in my car. He startled when I turned and saw him approaching so I dropped into a defensive crouch with my hand on my weapon (which was under my seat, mall was posted no-carry). Started running a line of BS about being robbed in that same parking lot the week prior and needing money to get back to VA. Saying "It happened right over there" and pointing behind me like he was trying to get me to turn away again. Similar thing, command voice to "Stop and return to your vehicle" and he did. I think it dawned on him that my hand was out of sight for a reason. Thing is, his was too......

Keep your experience in mind when you are parking in public lots too. You can get boxed in between your vehicle, open door and neighboring vehicle too. I go out of my way to give myself an out when I'm parking now.

[comn-cents]

I say good job, glad it didn't escalate. Real business people do business during the day not when it's dark out. I would have drawn and had gun in hand. I guess that some here don't pay attention to people "just looking to do good" "rake leaves" ya right. Or it's the drug addict just looking for his next fix, whether it be your wallet or your car or something in your house. Paranoid I think not, just not naive. Obviously your neighbor wasn’t far off track either.

[ZeSpectre]

I don't understand how some of you people can live your life from one day to the next without being on massive doses of Valium or some sort of tranquilizer? For some people, it seems that EVERY situation where you encounter a "stranger" approaching you is someone meaning to do you harm.

scottaschultz,
Distilled from the blanket statements you ask a few reasonable questions. I'll skip the confrontational rhetoric and try to address the actual question(s).

This guy was a complete stranger. Nobody I knew and nobody I'd ever seen in my neighborhood. He was a big man (over 6ft) and very unkempt in appearance. In addition, this guy made no sound, made no attempt to announce his presence, and was nearly at the corner of my vehicle (less than 8 ft away from me and closing) when I saw him. He only backed off and spoke to me -after- I addressed him and told him to back off. If you don't think that someone sneaking up on a complete stranger like that, in low light/dark, is suspicious then I don't know what to say.

Once this guy was addressed suddenly he had a story about offering to rake leaves and/or clean gutters. Aside from the fact that my house has "gutter helmets" and there aren't any leaves to speak of in the lawn yet, this is -precisely- the sort of BS excuse I used to run into all the time when I worked LE.

A little old lady (and three of her Sunday-cards playing friends) telling the guy to "go away" or they'd call the police from behind a secured door is just a little different from being basically cornered in a face-to-face with someone.

As for if the situation was life threatening or not nobody can say for certain, but from where I was standing it fit the classic set-up pattern for an assault/mugging so I played it safe (safe for me that is).

If all of this leads you to believe that I'm a fearful, panicky type of person who is prone to overreaction then I doubt anything I say will change your mind.

[Dannyl]

ZeSpectre, I think you handled it fine.

In South Africa people are mugged, hijacked, kidnapped, murdered (sometimes all 4 options) every single day.
In most instances, the perpetrators use whatever ruses they can find to get close enough, many of them dress well and are reasonably well groomed.

Is it nice or ideal to have to treat strangers approaching you with suspicion?
No, it is not nice or ideal. but the consequences of letting the wrong person get too close are far worse. I think that if one had to check, you would find that most victims of violent crime had not suspected that something was seriously wrong until it was too late.

Brgds,

Danny

[JerseyDrez]

Your comment about it being too late for any sales pitch gave me a good chuckle.

You seemed to keep your cool for it all happening very fast. Glad everything turned out ok..

[Slopemeno]

Keep a plan B in mind. Nobody says you MUST pull into your diveway. I think in this situation your senses were telling you something was out of place before you parked.

Perhaps something you could do is drive by- turn around and keep your headlights shining down the street, and see what he's up to.

I have to agree that this scenario would have made me very uneasy, and yes, the "lurking" style of his approach made me take notice.

[markj]

I am with Scott on this, you younger guys seem to startle easy. We would have a lot of fun with you all here where I live :)

look a small little 6 ft guy :)

What would you do if you was skinnin a deer and noticed eyes staring at ya from the dark? :)

wish I could film some of these "scenarios"

[Southern Rebel]

Per Markj,
you younger guys seem to startle easy. We would have a lot of fun with you all here where I live

Mark, in my area where I live, your little fun might very well be short-lived, in more ways than one. People who live in crime areas don't tend to have a sense of humor for that sort of "fun".

I won't say their reactions would necessarily be correct, but kinda like The Duke said in the movie, "My fault, your fault, nobody's fault,..............

[MLeake]

... that was Richard Boone, former star of "Paladin."

Boone played the lead kidnapper.

Cheers,

M

[scottaschultz]

But you guys are congratulating him like he is a war hero returning home from Afghanistan after single-handedly rescuing his platoon from an attack by a group of rebel Taliban insurgents.

I say very well done.
SA is what made you safest...
Nicely done.
I say good job, glad it didn't escalate.
ZeSpectre, I think you handled it fine.
You seemed to keep your cool for it all happening very fast. Glad everything turned out ok..

A scruffy looking vagabond came up to his house looking for a handout and he told him to go away. The ONLY place anyone would make a fuss over this is on TFL!

Scott

[MLeake]

... what would our responses have been if the story had been about how he didn't react quickly to the large, scruffy man closing on him in the dark on his property, and he got punched in the head and had his car keys and car taken?

When was the last time you had an unkempt stranger approach you at night, on your property?

I grew up in an area where we left doors unlocked, and were friendly with the neighbors. However, that was a small town, and everybody knew everybody. Strangers would have drawn immediate attention.

Since then, I've lived in a mix of neighborhoods, none exactly scary. Yet, I had an instance where a bad actor followed my not-then-ex back to our place, which was a 2600sq ft house in an upper middle class suburb (not exactly a dangerous neighborhood, normally), and a couple instances where the sheriff's gang unit responded to goings on just across the street, when I lived in a mostly student neighborhood near UF. In the instance with the bad actor following the ex, two things foiled his apparent intentions: the presence at the home of a Rottweiler/Shepherd mix, and the fact that the intended victim was armed with a 9mm. Can you say, shorts fabric left on fence during the rapid retreat?

Like I indicated in my earlier post, in the OP's example, drawing might have been an overreaction, but telling the guy to back off was appropriate. I've politely asked panhandlers in similar scenarios to back off, and they've complied, to date. The question is did they back off because I was polite and so they decided to be, or because I was their size or bigger and presented a controlled affect? The other question is, if they had not backed off, would I or would I not have been justified in taking physical action to back them off?

If I'd have been justified to use a shove or a punch to back them off, would a smaller man or a woman or an elderly person have been justified in using a weapon?

Etc....

Can you come up with ANY justification for a stranger approaching, on private property, to within 8 feet of a person, after dark, without first announcing himself and asking permission? If so, please let us know.

[cracked91]

Okay, I can sympathize with feeling threatened from being boxed in. But in all honesty alot of you guys remind me of Dwight Schrute. "Wanted to rake leaves for money, psh yeah right, more like wanted to pickpocket me and go buy cocaine!" And command voices can be great, but there are ways to talk to people without screaming at them when they more than likely don't have any bad intentions. I think you guys might come off a little odd to other people who notice your behavior.

[Chuck24]

I think you did fine. I have been in a similar situation. My internal alarms were going off like crazy because I knew this guy was up to no good. I did just what you did. Maybe critics don't realize that you don't respond to every vagabond or beggar in this way, nor do I. You were there. We were not. Good Job.

[MLeake]

again, what part of quiet approach, after dark, on private property are you not grasping?

This is not the same as a panhandler on a busy sidewalk asking for money as he approaches. (Although you need to keep an eye on them, too.)

It's not the same as a person on the sidewalk asking for directions.

You may not see the distinction, but there is one.

[Skans]

A scruffy looking vagabond came up to his house looking for a handout and he told him to go away. The ONLY place anyone would make a fuss over this is on TFL!

Guess you've never found yourself in this situation - a situation where you knew something wasn't right about a guy who approached you. A guy who had no business approaching you where he did and when he did. I've been there. I've had to get aggressive with this kind of person - got called all kinds of names for it too, but me and my girlfriend (wife now) survived. It's not the "no big deal" you are trying to make it out to be. We all live in different areas of the country. Maybe where you live, or where MarkJ lives folks don't mean anyone any harm and have no problem about wondering onto other folks property at night.

Personally, I can't imagine walking up on someone just as they are getting out of their car at night in a neighborhood where I didin't live. What would possibly compell me to do this? Folks just don't do that kind of thing, so I see no problem in handling this as though the man could be dangerous or up to no good.

[rantingredneck]

The Duke didn't actually say that...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

... that was Richard Boone, former star of "Paladin."

Boone played the lead kidnapper.

Cheers,

M

MLeake,

Actually the Duke did say it. He turned Richard Boone's line around on him later in the movie at the business end of a Greener...

[Dragon55]

He had to be to approach you that close that time of day.

I think you handled it exactly right.

Honest folks genuinely looking for work will show up in broad daylight and ring the front door bell.

Fortunately I don't have to deal with your exact situation. The garage door closes behind me.

[Latex Ducky]

Scott:


It is NOT polite to approach someone in the dark.
It is NOT polite to approach someone unannounced, especially in the dark.
When approaching a stranger, the first 2 rules I mentioned are even more important.
It is retarded to conduct business at non-business hours.

If you must get someones attention, then announce yourself but at a distance where you feel the other person would not feel threatened.

ZeSpectre is 100% justified in how he reacted.

An armed society is a polite society.

[MLeake]

... you are correct. I thought about that after I posted.

That movie has my favorite running gag line: "I heard you wuz dead." Boone's last words, shortly after Big Jake has said he's going to kill the next person who says that to him...

[rantingredneck]

I like, "You call me 'Daddy' again and we're gonna finish this fight!" One of my all-time favorite movies......

[raftman]

Drifters tend to be pretty unpredictable. Studies have shown that the majority of these drifter type people have substance abuse problems, and a hugely disproportionate amount of them have severe mental illnesses. From what I've read, less than 5% of the general population has a severe mental illness, but as much as 40% of the homeless population does. Of course, some homeless are just ordinary people that are down on their luck, but many are for reasons like drug abuse, and mental illness, very unpredictable and unstable. They all need help in one form or another, but that doesn't change the fact that the types that are clearly behaving abnormally, and/or are acting as if they're under the influence can be very dangerous and as a result, additional caution is warranted.

[robmkivseries70]

This is a common MO for casing, getting inside the property line, etc. I believe the poster handled it just right.;)
Best,
Rob

[JohnKSa]

Without getting into whether or not the actions of the OP were appropriate, some of you need to read the Five Stages of Violent Crime.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/five_stages.html

1) Intent
2) Interview
3) Positioning
4) Attack
5) Reaction

The "drifter" in the OP's story was basically up to stage 3 of 5. Now it's true that the drifter could have been completely innocent, but a person who is aware of the 5 stages and what they are would be justified in feeling a certain level of alarm given the drifter's actions as described.

[Mr. Davis]

I think you guys might come off a little odd to other people who notice your behavior.
Sounds kind of like our President - more concerned about being popular with others than doing what's right and standing up for one's own.

I'd rather come off a little odd than get mugged in my own driveway. OP, I think you handled things just fine. If nothing else, some guy looking to make some cash got a good lesson in business etiquette.

[wahsben]

As the saying goes: Better safe than sorry.

[ZeSpectre]

Last night I got home and was out mowing the lawn.

The nice old neighbor lady came over to thank me for checking up on her the other night, and to tell me she had to call the police at about 3:30AM because someone was trying to open the kitchen window she had left ajar. (Fortunately she has that window "pinned" so it only opens a couple of inches for ventilation).

The police found tracks in her mulch so there was physical evidence that someone was there.

We got to go over the description of the wandering "handyman" again in case it was him.

[Mr. James]

I've had the pleasure of meeting ZeSpectre, and of breaking bread with him. A more intelligent and level-headed gentleman would be hard to imagine. When reading the original post, I was thinking right along with JohnKSa - this was perilously close to a hand-to-hand, or hand-to-knife, or hand-to-whatever this sonuvadog had in mind.

Looking for a handout? Hardly. Looking for a day job? Complete BS. Looking to cold-cock and rob ZeSpectre? Quite likely.

I don't quail in terror at approaching strangers, but any sumbich sneaking up on me in the dark in my own carport in this fashion is going to be looking at the muzzle of a 1911. If anything, ZeSpectre's reaction was restrained and "professional," for want of a better term.

So, I'll join in the "well dones."

[5whiskey]

I have to support the actions of Zespector as well. To just turn around and completely ignore several red flags to be polite to the guy, niavely assuming that everyone you would ever encounter has the absolute best of intentions, could have turned into nothing. It could also turn into grave danger.

The key to any form of self defense is to stay ahead of the reaction curve... meaning you have to anticipate something bad COULD happen. Innocently assuming that everyone is being nice will end up in you laying on your back fighting for your life in a disadvantaged position because you weren't ready. The sneakiness of the drifter didn't give you much time to anticipate, but he did give you just enough time to face him and square off before he could get the complete upper hand. I think you did everything perfect, though I wouldn't even criticize if you had drawn the sidearm and keep it at around 4 o'clock on the waist ready to level on him should he flinch. Of course that is distance dependent... if he was only 10 feet away or so that's starting to get WAY close IMHO. You did quiet well sir.



Remember boys and girls... Smile, be polite, professional, and courteous; but have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

[Glenn Dee]

ZeSpectre... IMHO you reacted well within reason. People who invite themselves into your personal space have no right to expect a positive reaction. Who knows what this guy may have really been up to. I look at it like this... If you own a home with a big yard... common sense would tell that you already have made some arrangements. Why shoud you expect anyone to conduct any kind of business in a residential area, after dusk? I got the impression that he was stealthy in his walk up to you... why? It sounds to me like it may have been a mugging on it's way to happen... and the yard work story was if things didnt work out... By the way.. the drill you did with your firearm is called " covering from the loaded position" It's taught by the
nypd. Basically you have a subject covered without desplaying a firearm.

All in all a good job I think.:D

[markj]

When was the last time you had an unkempt stranger approach you at night, on your property?


I have 4 dogs and live out in the country, however, if you look at Omaha Nebr and the crime rate in the area I work in 30th and Ames you will find there are shootings almost every day. A few have died here in this local area recently.

My cousins sis in law was shot in Von Maur and died.

Use your head, keep aware at all times, stay out of dangerous situations. Kept me alive a long time now. Dont over react and most definatly do not shoot someone just for talking to ya.

We do tease folks like that out here. But most of the guys I hang out with have actual combat expirience.

Love Big Jake, JW had a lot of his family working on that one.

[Terry A]

Another vote for "Yes", ZeSpectre did a good job and it's because he followed HIS instincts in the situation he found himself in.

These people who just come up out of no where and start asking you for money or whatever, they have to be somewhat street savy themselves to have the cajones to come up on total strangers. They should expect the unexpected in return. :)

[riggins_83]

A scruffy looking vagabond came up to his house looking for a handout and he told him to go away. The ONLY place anyone would make a fuss over this is on TFL!

I think the scruffy looking vagabond should be looking for handouts in a well lit area not going house to house and approaching from behind! No way I'm going to assume there's no threat...

I think you handled it perfectly. When it come to your own safety and the possibility of being mugged or carjacked I'd rather be safe than sorry!

[Powderman]

I don't understand how some of you people can live your life from one day to the next without being on massive doses of Valium or some sort of tranquilizer? For some people, it seems that EVERY situation where you encounter a "stranger" approaching you is someone meaning to do you harm.

Here is some guy who just wants to rake your leaves or clean your gutters and you resort to using your best "command voice" to get him to go away while going into "weapon retention" mode, but yet the little old lady across the street managed to dispatch this horrible "BG" without using any of those tactics.

Then everyone here congratulates you for surviving this close call with death and praises your level-headed thinking in times of a crisis. You didn't survive a brush with death! You told some poor guy who was apparently down on his luck to go away and he did.

Seriously, what on earth did you do before you started carrying a gun? Were you always that scared out of your wits every time someone approached you to the point where you believed they intended to do you bodily harm

I guess you missed the part where it was mentioned that the encounter happened after dark.

Folks, I see the aftermath of "some guy" approaching like this quite a bit. It usually involves interviewing some poor soul who is shaking quite a bit; sometimes that person has a few choice bruises after their encounter. Sometimes, it is a person who is actually hurt pretty bad. Sometimes, it is a young man or woman who just came to the realization that the world is NOT a nice place. Sometimes, it's a mature man who just had to "take water" for the first time in his life; who was just humiliated, crushed, "punked out", whatever, in front of his family.

I think the OP showed remarkable restraint in NOT drawing his sidearm and letting the person approaching see down the muzzle of a drawn gun. There were so many danger signals in this instance that it's not even remotely funny.

I guess that some of you do NOT understand that the OP was very likely a few seconds from grievous injury or even death. This "citizen" that approached him was NOT trying to solicit for a job.

This coyote thought he was slinking up on a big wooley bleating sheep.
He found himself face to face with a bull sheepdog.

Muy hombre, my friend. Well met, and well done.

[skoro]

Seriously, what on earth did you do before you started carrying a gun? Were you always that scared out of your wits every time someone approached you to the point where you believed they intended to do you bodily harm?

To an extent, I agree.

However, if a bum approaches silently from behind you in the dark, I think it's wise to assume his intentions may not be benign. If he's legit, he'll announce his presence rather than wait for you to maybe turn around to notice his advance. ;)

Both of my brothers are LEOs. Both have mentioned that BGs love to try muggings when you're either loading or unloading your vehicle. Your attention is focused on your task and both hands are occupied.

Just sayin'...

[Coyote Hitman]

[/COLOR]Yup, here we are again with ANOTHER real world scenario. At this point I'm looking upwards and saying "okay, enough, let someone else have a bit of experience okay!?!"

Do these "incidents" happen to you often? If so, it is a pretty good indicator that you are not reacting normally to everyday encounters.

Sunday evening. I'm coming home from Wal-Mart just after it has started to get dark and as I'm pulling into the carport I notice some guy walking down on the golf course past my house. This is, of course, not unusual at all, a lot of people shortcut over that section of the course.


Ok, we have established there is nothing unusual at first. The man is described as "some guy" nothing unusual about him being noted. Later, he is painted as a disheveled vagabond. I would presume his looks did not change throughout the encounter, so why did he go from ordinary to unusual?

I pull in, shut the vehicle off, and get out. I look around (as is my habit) and see nothing so I move to the back and open the rear door and start to reach in for the groceries when I see movement out of the corner of my eye so I straighten up to see what it is. That same guy from the golf course is now just off the back corner of the jeep looking at me and moving towards me.[/COLOR

OK, so he is about 5 feet away "and closing" on you. It would take you longer to perceive and react than it would for him to reach you, especially if his intentions were ill. Point blank, you would have been bought and paid for in two seconds. Another argument that this guy was not a threat.

Here I am, just after dark, nobody else around that I can see or hear, boxed in between the jeep and the wall of the carport, with the car door open behind me so I can't even freakin' back up and this big, really scruffy looking, guy closing in on me with his hands out.

Ordinary guy is now a big scruffy looking guy. OK. His hands are out and he is closing in on you. Again, if this were true and you accurately described your surroundings and scenario, you would have been bought and paid for before you could have uttered a word.

Meanwhile, my brain can't seem to decide if I need to finish a draw-down on the guy or try to crawl into the back seat of the jeep (a Cherokee SUV) and lock the door before he can get to me (the momentary mental paralysis probably lasted a split second but felt like an hour and was NOT a fun time )

What legal justification do you have to "draw down" on the guy. Do you have legal justification to shoot? Do you point a weapon at anything you are not ready and willing to destroy? Are you a cowboy, Rambo, an internet warrior?

[COLOR="Yellow"]FORTUNATELY he stopped and backed right up (I don't know if he saw the gun or not) and started saying "sorry, sorry man, I just saw your big yard and wanted to let you know that I'm for hire to rake leaves or clean gutters or anything like that".

Fortunately? Fortunate because you would have made him pay...and pay dearly.

So shortly after he was gone the little old lady across the street pokes her head out of her front door and asks me if everything is okay (she heard me yell and was watching everything). I say yes and she tells me that same guy was over in her yard earlier and gave her the same "handyman" line.[/QUOTE]

OK, so this old lady scares him off by threatening to call the police (as indicated somewhere in this thread), he returns to the same spot with the same story. Doesn't sound like an ill intentioned person, sounds more like someone who has nothing to worry about.

[QUOTE]Below is a drawing of how I was boxed in. (sorry for the crude drawing).

You took time to draw out this scenario and ask total strangers for advice. Some of these strangers may be big, scruffy, disheveled looking guys who also look ordinary prior to speaking to you.

I say very well done.

SA is what made you safest...

Nicely done.

I say good job, glad it didn't escalate.

ZeSpectre, I think you handled it fine.

You seemed to keep your cool for it all happening very fast. Glad everything turned out ok..
Here are six folks you can hope serve as jury members at your trial.

NOW before anyone gets on a high horse or soap box and mounts a tinfoil hat wearing attack...I am only doing what any prosecutor or civil attorney would do, albeit they could do much better. It would not be difficult to paint you as a trigger happy Rambo type who is looking for a reason, any reason, to bust a cap. A good prosecutor or civil attorney would eat you alive and turn your defense blanket into a leaky seine. Perhaps realizing that will prevent these "incidents" from occurring as often.

My critique: you acted a little paranoid.

When reading the OP, I could only picture Vern from the movie Stand By Me when he was standing guard with the pistol while the others slept. Scared witless, he pointed a gun at every noise he heard.:D

Hope you don't get yourself in trouble someday.

[TailGator]

I was trying to stay out of this one, but some of you need to go back to the original post. When OP was surprised in his own carport by the close approach of someone by whom he felt threatened, he ordered the person out of his house (if we may consider his carport a part of his house - if it was a an enclosed garage instead of a carport there would be no debate). That was the end of it. He didn't draw, didn't fire, didn't brandish. He turned his hip so that the weapon would be more accessible to him than to the other guy should he be attacked, and he unsnapped the retention device on his holster so he would have access to his weapon if he needed it. What alternatives do you propose to giving the person a verbal warning and preparing for a possible escalation? Should he have not even noticed the guy? Not acknowledge him? Invited him inside for a cookie? All OP did was display situational awareness.

Do we support licensed concealed carry or not? This was a responsible non-use of his weapon.

[hogdogs]

I am not in any popularity contests so I may come across a bit crass (understatement) to those that invite themselves into my personal space, the size of which varies due to situation and location. I do not carry a firearm but the buck 110 gets covered real easy and if my warnings are not heeded immediately when I am on my property or in my vehicle I will quickly draw a weapon if I feel threatened.
Brent

[sharpshot71]

Try this scenerio out. It is just starting to get dark out, you turn around and there is a strange man(ordinary or disheveled) 5 ft away and still moving towards you. He gives you a BS line about wanting to clean your gutters. What do you do? Even the skeptics on here would probably draw your gun.

Move that out to your garage/carport/shop/whatever. What is the difference. A bigger door? Because its open?

The bottom line is, the guy was two steps away still moving towards him after dark in his own garage without making any attempt to get his attention.

Either the guy was really dumb, or had bad intentions. That is two more steps and he sticks a knife tip to your back and says "give me your cell phone, wallet and keys to this here vehicle."

Lets put two different people in this scenerio, the OP, and the skeptics.

First the OP,

Guys sneaks up to within 5 feet, OP turns his hip, unsnaps his holster, and confronts the guy.

Possibility one,
He had no bad intentions, just down on his luck and he wants to rake leaves, OP says he is not interested and asks him to leave. No harm done to either party.

Possibility two,
He pulls a knife and threatens him, steps within striking distance, OP draws on the guy and he runs away. Whew, that was close.


Now for the skeptic.
Guys sneaks up to within 5 feet,

Skeptic, "Hello sir, what can I do for you on this fine evening?"

Possibility one,
guy, "I was just wondering if you needed any leaves raked sir"
Skeptic, " No I don't, thank you stopping by tho. Would you like a key to my house in case you are in the neighborhood and need a place to sleep?"
guy was harmless...

Possibility two,
Newscaster, " Tonight the story of a man named Skeptic who was brutally murderded in his own carport, and his family in the house. Police believe Skeptic went to shake the murderers hand and they guy killed him and his family with a knife.


Now I know, there are many possible scenerios between those, but you get the idea.

Possibility one had the same outcome for both parties.

Which guy would you rather be in possibility two?

Did the guy mean any harm? maybe, maybe not. what if he did?

[ZeSpectre]

Coyote Hitman, that's quite a post.
Discussion of how things work is why I post in the first place so here we go, though before I start I want to point out to you (and others) that my replies are all in the spirit of a good debate and discussion of tactics, good choices, and bad choices, so that we all can learn (myself included).

If I'm not taking this stuff personally then nobody else should either.

That said...

Do these "incidents" happen to you often? If so, it is a pretty good indicator that you are not reacting normally to everyday encounters.

A quick search here would answer your question. The area where I live has had a string of incidents over the past year or so because some folks think a big dark golf course is the perfect place to run after committing an assault, mugging, or theft, or to deal drugs, bang a hooker (and then assault her when she wants payment), commit vandalism, and so forth. A few of these incidents have spilled over onto my property. Working closely with local law enforcement we've curtailed things pretty severely but it still seems like we have been getting more than our fair share of shady behavior happening just recently. Were I in a court of law I have plenty of documentation (police arrest reports) to demonstrate just cause for caution with strangers coming onto my property from the golf course after dark.

Ok, we have established there is nothing unusual at first. The man is described as "some guy" nothing unusual about him being noted. Later, he is painted as a disheveled vagabond. I would presume his looks did not change throughout the encounter, so why did he go from ordinary to unusual?
The simple answer is distance. When I first saw him (in low light) he was probably 40 feet away. When he got too close I was able to get a much better look at him.

OK, so he is about 5 feet away "and closing" on you. It would take you longer to perceive and react than it would for him to reach you, especially if his intentions were ill. Point blank, you would have been bought and paid for in two seconds. Another argument that this guy was not a threat.
I'm sorry, there is just too much speculation here for me to address.

Ordinary guy is now a big scruffy looking guy. OK. His hands are out and he is closing in on you. Again, if this were true and you accurately described your surroundings and scenario, you would have been bought and paid for before you could have uttered a word.
Already covered.

What legal justification do you have to "draw down" on the guy. Do you have legal justification to shoot?
The legal justification is "fear of incipient bodily harm", and if you don't understand why I might think that harm was about to happen then you haven't been reading the thread very carefully. The yardstick is "MMO" (Means, Motive, Opportunity).

Do you point a weapon at anything you are not ready and willing to destroy? Are you a cowboy, Rambo, an internet warrior?
Obviously not since I never actually unholstered, but thanks for the yellow journalism.

Fortunately? Fortunate because you would have made him pay...and pay dearly.
I'm saying fortunately because the absolute LAST thing I want to do is harm another person and then have to deal with the can o' worms that opens up.

OK, so this old lady scares him off by threatening to call the police (as indicated somewhere in this thread), he returns to the same spot with the same story. Doesn't sound like an ill intentioned person, sounds more like someone who has nothing to worry about.
Possibly so, but without a time machine I had no way of knowing that anyone had a previous interaction with this person. Also, even with the benefit of hindsight and review I am still of the opinion that the "approach" was extremely suspect.

You took time to draw out this scenario and ask total strangers for advice. Some of these strangers may be big, scruffy, disheveled looking guys who also look ordinary prior to speaking to you.
I don't think I understand your point.

My critique: you acted a little paranoid.
Your opinion is noted and I appreciate that you took the time to write a critique.

[musher]

It occurs to me that most of the criticism of ZeSpectre's account makes the assumption that the stranger was in fact harmless. It's not clear to me how anyone could make that judgement one way or the other. The fact that the stranger simply left w/o argument doesn't prove one way or the other his original intentions. He could have been harmless, or ZeSpectre could have failed the interview. No way to tell really.

It's pretty clear that ZeSpectre was startled and alarmed by the sudden appearance of this person and his inability to retreat from him. Whether or not the stranger was in fact dangerous, the possibility certainly exists that he was.

Anyone would be alarmed to be cornered by a stranger. This isn't 'over the top', 'excessively paranoid', 'easily frightened' or any of the other insinuations made by some. People are wired to recognize some things as inherently hazardous. Being cornered in the dark by a stranger on your property with no line of retreat qualifies as one of those things regardless of the stranger's actual intentions.

Coping with the adrenaline dump and managing the interaction without getting too aggressive had to be a challenge given the tight quarters. Seems to me it was handled just right. ZeSpectre communicated his discomfort to the stranger while simultaneously preparing for things to escalate.

Stranger backed off, ZeSpectre stood down. Had the stranger continued to approach, his intentions would have been confirmed and ZeSpectre would have had some chance to stay ahead of him. I really can't see what can be faulted about his actions here.

[MLeake]

... ZeSpectre is too polite to say it, so I will:

Go someplace else to fling insults. Critiques are welcome. Name-calling isn't.

Also, please note that the LEO's who have responded to the thread all have sided with ZeSpectre's interpretation of events.

That doesn't mean the man who approached ZeSpectre had ill intent, but it does mean that it many cases, that's exactly how a mugger's approach is made.

I do notice that you, and a few others who've criticized ZeSpectre, still haven't explained away why a man would approach somebody, on private property, after dark, without saying a word.

I can't recall having a stranger approach me on my property - this does not include door to door salesmen, ringing a doorbell, we are talking about people approaching while you are in your yard or driveway and in plain sight - without first waving and saying something to make me aware of their presence while they were still off my property and at a socially acceptable distance.

And that's in daylight.

Please give one good reason why an "innocent" person should effectively sneak up behind the homeowner, saying nothing to give away the fact that he's there until the homeowner has turned and obviously sighted him?

[OldMarksman]

Someone claiming to have "just seen" the "big back yard" in the evening would seem to be an danger signal.

Someone walking onto the property uninvited in the dark and coming within "Tueller" distance when I am cornered would worry me. Might well justify producing a weapon, too (lay opinion).

[Kyo]

awareness is something you can decide to have and not to have. From my own experiences and common sense, there should be NO one trying to give you a sales pitch in a parking lot in the middle of the night. A weak one at that. I have had guys come up to me to try while I was with someone and then realize that I was the wrong mark because I was aware. Good for you cause you were.
I have to work on my verbal skills in situations like that because I haven't really told anyone to stop or back up before. More like they see my face and figure it out.
I don't walk around with a gun on my hip wondering who I am going to shoot today. that is ridiculous. And I don't think I am going to be a superhero or anything either. And I don't think the OP is one for doing what he thought was best at the time. The best way to figure out why people carry is to get into a situation like that(god forbid) and be helpless.

[hogdogs]

without first waving and saying something to make me aware of their presence while they were still off my property and at a socially acceptable distance.
Even the requisite minimum... "AHEM" throat clear is an accepted method of making a civilized approach up to someone... especially on THEIR PROPERTY...
Brent

[Coyote Hitman]

... ZeSpectre is too polite to say it, so I will:

Go someplace else to fling insults. Critiques are welcome. Name-calling isn't.

MLeake, read much?

NOW before anyone gets on a high horse or soap box and mounts a tinfoil hat wearing attack...I am only doing what any prosecutor or civil attorney would do

There were no insults or name calling intended(although I can see how a fellow who overreacts to normal everyday things might see it differently), I simply disected his statements and took a line of questioning any prosecutor or litigator would use. Rambo, etc. was not directed at him as an insult. I can see how you might not understand that, though.

[koolminx]

You guy's are not supposed to be taking polite pot shots at each other... It's petty and a little rude to the rest of us.

[Pyzon]

BUT-

What could have been the result if ZeSpectre would have incorrectly assumed that this guy's intent was totally harmless, to include all the most horrible consequences we read about every day, always in some other city, always to a total stranger ?

What would all you that criticize his successful and peaceful resolution to a very scary scenario have to say if he would have guessed wrong ?

He did not draw, he did not brandish, situation resolved, end of story.

Good job, ZeSpectre. I hope if I ever face such a scene that I can be as cool and professional and enjoy the same opportunity to ask for a critique of my methods.

[pax]

Coyote Hitman,

Check your PMs.

Everyone,

Take two deep breaths and think twice before posting. A quick re-read of the Forum Rules (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/faq.php?faq=rules_catecory#faq_forum_rules) might be in order here too. Pay special attention to Rule #3, esp the bit about "acrimonious or veiled in humor."

Disagree as vehemently as you wish about the subject at hand, but no more personal remarks will be tolerated.

pax

[cougar gt-e]

What if....

Instead of the OP being armed and aware, picture YOUR grandmother, mother, wife/GF, sister or daughter boxed in between the jeep and wall. And remember it's after dark, and a 6+ft tall scruffy looking man silently crept into the garage behind her to within 8ft before being noticed. (Note: he didn't draw attention to himself - he was noticed).

Would you all have the same feelings of good will and joy about the said scruffian?

Or would you be crying about finding a pool of blood, semen, a missing car, a ransacked house and no sign of your loved one?


Reminds me of a time I reconnected with a school buddy. He is a LEO and had 12-15 years experience at that time. He was looking at everybody, everywhere --> all the time. He would walk around corners 6' from the corner, would avoid bushes and alleys, walked down the center of the parking lot rows (where the cars drive) to maximize distance to parked cars. He even went PAST his own car and looked at it from both sides. That's when I laughed and asked why he was so paranoid. He said it's not paranoia, he sees the results of oblivious/trusting people getting robbed, stabbed, raped, beaten and killed every single day. We drove around and he pointed out 10-12 places in a couple miles where just that happened. And this is a nice area. He even said that if you asked the people in those neighborhoods about crime, they would say there was none to very little and yet...

Personally, I would have had the gun out. It's my property. I own guns and have them out and about with me - it's a constitutional right. Wouldn't have pointed it unless he violated my sphere of personal safety. By the way, 8' is a short distance and a knife wielding criminal can easily kill a person even if they have their hand on a gun in a holster. It's one step and a lunge to bury the knife in your chest/guts. Try it sometime with a dummy gun dummy knife.

To each his own. Some will live to be ridiculed here others to be mourned at the funeral.

[MLeake]

... are one of the main reasons why at least SOME MA training is a good idea. Will it make you Chuck Norris, or Chuck Liddell? No. Will it give you better odds of sidestepping an initial attack while you draw? Yes. If a side-step is impossible, could it train another viable redirect for the immediate attack? Possibly.

In other words, some training is likely to yield a small benefit, but sometimes a small benefit is all you need.

Let's say that in this particular case the scruffy guy did intend a mugging, and did have a knife.

ZeSpectre would have had a hard time side-stepping, since he was blocked in by the Jeep, its open door, and the carport wall. Side-stepping may not have been an option.

Fending the knife thrust with the offhand (ideally targeting wrist or forearm, not blade) could both unbalance the attacker just enough, and buy just enough time, to draw and fire.

Of course, ZeSpectre would have high odds of taking a nasty stab or slash to the arm. This beats having the blade meet his torso.

Any time the attacker has a knife, the odds of getting cut or stabbed are high. Any time the attacker has a gun, the odds of getting shot are high. The odds of the initial attack hitting something vital are smaller if you don't freeze in position at point of aim.

Just a thought.

[ZeSpectre]

Respectfully,
Folks, can you ease up on Coyote Hitman? While his writing style is somewhat confrontational he did bring up some valid points which I had no problem with addressing.

If, in the end, he is of the opinion that I am fearful or paranoid, he is fully entitled to his opinion and I find it informative to understand how that perception comes into being.

I think the disagreement is IMPORTANT lest we all (especially myself) get locked into a "box" in our thinking.

[MLeake]

Point taken, and it's a very good point.

My own point is that it should be possible to debate a point from either side without calling names. Doing so in an organized HS or collegiate debate would risk disqualification.

If we simply accept name calling and ridicule to take the place of debate, then we will function less like an enthusiast's forum and more like, er, Congress...

Cheers,

M

[Glenn E. Meyer]

We are watching. ;)

So some reasonable points have been raised - let the discussion continue but with no comment that a person did wrong. Stay with a theoretical analysis.

If you don't like a person's tone - use the report, etc. No need to back and forth - we will look at it.

Glenn

[Yankee Traveler]

A little Paranoid...???

Maybe yes, maybe no...

Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean there isn't anybody out to get me. Paranoia can save your life. Better to be a paranoia statistic then a victimized statistic.

If he's crossing the street and loadly saying "Pardon me..." I'm answering with "Yeh, what can I do you out of..?" If he is less then 10 feet, and not announcing his presense, I'm telling him too back the bleep off and I'm reaching.

[comn-cents]

Yankee Traveler "Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean there isn't anybody out to get me. Paranoia can save your life."

Paranoid works in your statement but I like to say "being aware" and that's all it is. I say tomato they say tomato.:)

[pax]

Deleted a few off-topic comments.

Please keep your posts to discussing what was done, or how it might have been done differently. That would be on topic for strategies and tactics! ;)

Thanks.

pax

[markj]

I am sure we all agree that it is a good thing no one was harmed in any way.

I guess that some of you do NOT understand that the OP was very likely a few seconds from grievous injury or even death.

Sounds to me that both parties were a bit startled maybe so? Doesnt sound like he was close to death as the other guy had no visible weapon.

Try this scenerio out. It is just starting to get dark out, you turn around and there is a strange man(ordinary or disheveled) 5 ft away and still moving towards you. He gives you a BS line about wanting to clean your gutters. What do you do? Even the skeptics on here would probably draw your gun.


OK, I will play along. I would have walked towards him right hand outstretched to give a shake, offer my name, listen to him attentivly. If he did anything other than shake the hand well we would shift to option 2, no body likes option 2 tho.

I still say a bit paranoid, but if it keeps you alive then go for it but I am not gonna say good job man. I would rather ask what was ya thinking letting someone get that close to ya in the first place?

[MLeake]

... for those who find ZeSpectre's response to have been "a bit paranoid," please explain why you would NOT find it unusual to have a stranger approach, silently, from behind, after dark, on your property?

No funny comments, please, just explain why you think it was an overreaction, in light of the specific situation.

Thanks.

[TailGator]

please explain why you would NOT find it unusual to have a stranger approach, silently, from behind, after dark, on your property?

That's a biggie that none of the critics have answered.

I would have walked towards him right hand outstretched to give a shake, offer my name

With the situation from the first quote, you would have closed the distance for him, and then taken one of your hands out of action, with no sense of suspicion? Honest?

[Powderman]

Something I'd like to comment on...

First, (and I must say this with overwhelming sadness) there is no such place as a safe or nice area anymore. Sometimes while on duty, I will find a nice quiet corner of the reservation, outside of the city and away from the main roads. I'll step outside and look at the absolutely gorgeous scenery; listen to the sounds of the birds and the Puyallup River close by. Depending on the time of year and if it's a sunny day out, I can see Tacobet (also known as Tahkoma, or by the more common name of Mount Rainier) gleaming in the distance.

I sit and think that man cannot possibly spoil or disrupt a portrait of sublime beauty like this one.

Then, I glance down, look at my duty belt and the Colt in the holster, feel the body temperature increase from the body armor, catch a bit of heat coming off the engine of the still-running Crown Vic, and hear a radio call from our Dispatch, PCSO, WSP, or another agency about the latest incident where one human being managed to brutalize another.

And I realize that man can and has durned well spoiled the picture already.

Here's an idea for ZeSpectre, as well as those with dark driveways. Get some strong lights with motion sensors. These will give you an edge in seeing what might be happening. Also, if the outside of the house lights up, it tells you that there is something moving out there, and should post up the alert level.

[Capt Charlie]

Excellent post Powderman! :)

And as an ex back-country ranger, I know exactly where you're coming from :(.

[IZZY]

Och, Most of the snide negative comments come from Northern "midwest" states where crime is still lower than VIRGINIA.

( Norfolk had 40% Americanized African unemployment back in the Clinton daze...and when they cant get a job, some will turn to crime....and when there a Felon, there is no forgiveness in VA, and then a 99.9% chance they will get no job. SO back to crime...)

Burglary attempts of my families home in Norfolk 5.

Burglary attempts in Va. Beach 2.

Incidents in parking lots / gas stations etc. 1 for me and 1 for my brother.

Attempted carjackings 1 ( was driving an old caddy)

At no time was any property or lives taken.... aware is not even the word, you really do have to be a bit "sensitive". I used to employ a felon to wash my car until he cheated me. I have given a lift to 2 large colored Americans who I saw had car trouble....You ALWAYS greet people first with "how's it goin'".....polite but firm and ready to back it up.
It does not help that I am short.;)

VA is a Polite yet VIOLENT place.

Now living in MN, I see how complacent people are....and yet my building ( not me) was burglarized last year, and this month the doors have been showing signs of crowbars and hammers!

WAKE UP PEOPLE ! Not everyone lives in a corn field.

[skoro]

I think the detractors in this thread are focusing too narrowly on the OP's strong reaction and dismissing the reality on the ground. In his situation, I think his action was entirely appropriate. A vagrant sneaks up on him from behind in the dark. Once exposed, the guy spits out a line about yard work. The OP reacts by showing he's ready for a confrontation. He didn't imagine this creep's presence a few feet from him, approaching silently.

Where's the "paranoia?"

Anyone assuming the bum's intentions were harmless is more than likely very naive. :rolleyes:

[ZeSpectre]

I would rather ask what was ya thinking letting someone get that close to ya in the first place?
At some point one has to stop "scanning" if one is going to ever get anything done. I'm pretty sure that those who know me will testify that I'm usually pretty alert and aware of my surroundings but leaning into a vehicle to retrieve groceries blocks sight, hearing, and thus awareness and there's no way around that.

I hadn't thought about it consciously but now that it comes up, the fact that the subject covered 30 odd feet on a pretty sharp uphill grade to get right alongside my vehicle in the brief period I was getting bags off the floor of my vehicle is, to me, yet another signal that something wasn't right about the encounter.

Also, the "lights" suggestions several people have given me are appreciated and good but there are already motion sensor lights in the carport. Unfortunately I have had to turn the sensitivity down quite a bit because various critters (raccoons and possum) kept triggering the lights all the time and annoying the neighbors. So the lights don't always come on (I've messed with them a lot and still haven't found a "happy medium").

[taz1]

wouldn't of had to feed my dogs for a cupple days. :p

he definately would have got to see the fun end of my gun.

not my problem if your daddy didnt teach you any better than to just walk up on someones property.

[markj]

With the situation from the first quote, you would have closed the distance for him, and then taken one of your hands out of action, with no sense of suspicion? Honest?

Yep, as I posted, if he did anything other than shake my hand, well we go to plan B. Quote it all or nothing, out of context isnt my thing.

4 dogs on the ground makes it a bit uneven on my side, or does this not seem to be a deterrent for you? Most would think so.

I would not put my hand on my weapon, would not pull it, would not let someone get that close to me, the dogs barking will let me know that I am not alone. The screams from the bloody dude will lead me to him.

Last summer late at night the dogs go off, I hit the flood that lites up the parking area and see 2 young men by my truck, they run off and get into a car drive away. I got a brand new 5 gallon gas can and a newer rubber hose. Didnt take a weapon out, didnt feel like I was in any form of danger. We all lived to see another day. Well they may have needed clean undies.....

[headbangerJD]

An unknown stranger approaches you during the dark on your property while your back is turned and you just shake hands with him? Thats a good way to become quickly disabled and harmed by an attacker. I understand that you have dogs, but Zespectre didn't. Lets say Zespectre turned around towards the stranger, reached out to shake his hand, and then gets maced and beat. Many a member on TFL would be calling him a moron. This is just 1 scenario, a million things could have happened differently.
I sure as hell wouldn't be shaking a strangers hand that practically blind-sided me.

[TailGator]

Markj - no offense was intended by using a partial quote, and there was no intent to mislead. The entire post was available for anyone who wanted to read it, and I posted enough for any other reader to find it. I notice you did the same thing in your reply to me. Quoting entire posts seems kind of pointless and is a drag to read.

Your dogs, acting the way you describe, would mean that you would not be in the situation of the OP. Good job, but the OP situation did exist, and I still don't think it was a comfortable or safe position to be in, and I don't think ignoring one's instincts, closing the little remaining distance between you and an aggressor, or giving him one of your hands to disable or confine (particularly if you are right handed and carry strong sided) is a good tactic. I definitely need a better dog, though - mine is a couch potato. :)

[stephen426]

ZeSpectre,

First of all, great job preventing a possibly dangerous situation while showing restraint. Most people do not approach you unannounced after dark (to that short a distance) if they have good intentions. I think someone made an excellent point when they said replace ZeSpectre with their wife, daughter, or mother and see how quickly paranoia becomes a real "life-threatening" situation. I am not a big guy (5'7" 160lbs.) so I certainly would certainly feel threatened by a 6' gruffy looking guy.

Since this is in the tactics and training sections, I will try to critique your actions based in the information you gave. I think I would have done what you did but I would also have started backing up and closing the doors as I backed up. I would definately NOT get into the car since it doesn't give you any real protection. It also greatly limits your mobility (with the car parked and the keys in your pocket) and your visibility. If they guy has a gun, your position becomes stationary and you become a much easier target to hit. Besides, cars offer very little, if any, real cover since most handgun bullets will penetrate a door or window easily. Moving back may give you some real cover to duck behind (the front of the car) if the guy pulled out a weapon on you. In all honestly, I probably would have drawn the gun and had it in the low ready position. He was on ZeSpectre's property and it was already dark out. I know that may seem aggressive to some, but the guy is already so close. He needs to know you are a serious threat to him and that he had better go and choose an easier target. I don't know how big ZeSpectre is, but this guy probably saw him as a potential target.

Despite all the critics, again I say well done.

[ZeSpectre]

Stephan426,
Thanks, good critique.
I would also have started backing up and closing the doors as I backed up
Unfortunately with the way car doors are I would have had to move towards the guy to make enough clearance to be able to close the car door which is why I was basically trapped.

[droidw]

Mr. ZeSpectre,

IMO, well done.

1. Everybody got out of the situation alive.
2. If he really was a drifter, then he clearly got the message.
3. You did exactly what you felt in order to preserve your life. You followed precisely your plan. If this situation would have turned differently, the chances for you to keep your life would have been far higher.
4. No explicit gun was present, even though you reached for it and grasped it. But the gesture is "visually reinforcing" to the stranger.
As Clint Smith says, "even if I'm pointing a gun at someone, it doesn't mean I'm going to shoot. It means I'm going to shoot if you don't comply with my requests."
5. Command voice is a must need. It defines what it is going to happen if you don't do what you're told to. Loud and clear, so there's no misunderstanding.
6. You have the right to feel threatened by anything you want, and react accordingly (and be responsible of the actions you take, of course).

Best regards.

[rodwhaincamo]

I think I would have basically done the same as you had, but would have drawn my weapon keeping it behind me out of sight for the peace of mind that I was actually prepared. Don't know what your setup is, but I would hate to have my pistol snag on my shirt or something at a critical moment. I don't see anything else you could have done better or differently. I definately would not have produced my hand for a shake from someone who, in the dark especially, snuck up that close to me. That is for business and friends, of which he was neither.

[serf 'rett]

This post serves to remind me of the reason that when I go to someone else's house and knock on their door, I always take at least two long steps away from their door in cases where they know me and even further if I'm at someone's house that doesn't know me.

I put space between me and the person answering their door to make them feel an increased level of safety. Distance increases safety. Whenever possible, as I approach someone on their home turf, I try to make sure they know I there before I'm close to them. I got broke from slipping up on people when I was a teen. One night I snuck up on a neighbor girl and scared the stew out of her; she beat me with a broom all the way across our two yards and was still beating on our door after I made good my escape.

Give people space or you could get hurt. Make people respect your space - the bum was too close! There's a difference in paranoid behavior and establishing a safe distance from the unknown.

[markj]

giving him one of your hands to disable

OK I will say this, I am a very big man, huge in some eyes. I can pick up 200 lbs with one hand, my hand isnt the one that would be disabled sir. :) Hate to say it but I have been saddled with this all my life. I can look at a guy and plumb scare him off. I dont mean to but it is what it is.

I also asked him, what was he thinking letting a guy get that close to him in the first place? No lights, no dog, no alarm, just letting his mind wander enough to get into the situation he was in. That is my whole point.

Also, going for the gun as a first choice can lead to bad things happening soon after.

Motion detector flood (as I have) a good barker (once again) and be alert to your surroundings. The gun is the last resort.

[comn-cents]

markj "Motion detector flood (as I have) a good barker (once again) and be alert to your surroundings. The gun is the last resort".

You are right and guess what he was at his last resort and acted appropriately.:eek:

[MLeake]

... are all good things.

In the OP's case, they might even be viable options.

I'm a big fan of dogs. Motion detector lights can be a mixed bag; opossums and raccoons tend to wake one up all night, until one starts to simply ignore the lights.

However, for many other people, dogs and lights aren't options, especially for apartment dwellers.

In such cases, the only thing one has is one's own situational awareness.

[TailGator]

Markj, from what you tell us about yourself I'm glad you are one of the good guys. I am a runt, and OP sounds downright reasonable to me. And he addressed your other issues (dog, lights, being in a vulnerable spot because he was bent over unloading his car) in previous posts. "Going for his gun" was restricted to turning his holster away from the surprise guest and freeing up the retention device; as I said before, he did not fire, brandish, or even draw, so I don't think it was an inappropriate use of the gun, or even in most senses a use of a gun at all.

Overall, it sounds like you are a formidable opponent, and I don't blame others for not messing with you. But we aren't all as big or intimidating as you, and so perhaps we need to deal with some situations differently.

Or maybe I should have just followed by first instinct and stayed out of this thread.

[rodwhaincamo]

"I pull in, shut the vehicle off, and get out. I look around (as is my habit) and see nothing so I move to the back and open the rear door and start to reach in for the groceries when I see movement out of the corner of my eye so I straighten up to see what it is."

Sounds to me as though he had done all he could to be aware. He was looking around as he pulled up, and then looked around once he got there. Not sure how your home is set up, but it sounds like the "BG" could have been staying out of sight.

[markj]

perhaps we need to deal with some situations differently

My point is the weapon is last resort.

[devildog66]

In such a scenario, why not first to address the man/person who is seemingly out of place? It lets him know you see and acknowledge him, and it lets you better direct the scene - you stay in charge. As in, with a firm but non-hostile voice, " good evening, may I help you?" or something else to that effect.

[Slopemeno]

"Back up and tell me what you're going to tell me from over THERE"

[Pyzon]

In such a scenario, why not first to address the man/person who is seemingly out of place? It lets him know you see and acknowledge him, and it lets you better direct the scene - you stay in charge. As in, with a firm but non-hostile voice, " good evening, may I help you?" or something else to that effect.


That same guy from the golf course is now just off the back corner of the jeep looking at me and moving towards me.

Here I am, just after dark, nobody else around that I can see or hear, boxed in between the jeep and the wall of the carport, with the car door open behind me so I can't even freakin' back up and this big, really scruffy looking, guy closing in on me with his hands out.


By the time ZeSpectre noticed the dude he was aleady far too close for comfort, so that a casual and "non-hostile" quiz show could take place. The guy was within 6 feet or so !

Not comfortable for sure and too scary for anything other than Defcon 4 !

[wpcexpert]

As for me, I am a big fan of President Reagan's "Peace Thru Strength" policy.

MarkJ, you are an over whelmingly large man, you would have maintained peace thru your obvious size advantage, thus a firearm would have been your last resort.

Now I'm not an overly large man at 5'9" 215. Not that intimidating to most but enough to keep me out of trouble most places. But in this situation, a clear "show of force" was definately warrented.

I don't think a gun is a last resort, it should be second to the perception of the situation. If making ready or showing a gun (in this type of situation) will prevent myself from any harm and also prevent me from having to shoot someone (Peace Thru Strength), then that is the appropriate resort to use.


I didn't mean to sound as if I was directly targeting Mr. MarkJ, his comments simply aided my point the best.:D

[gregjc9]

I just finished reading the link posted earlier to the 5 stages of violent crime, very good reading. Reading though the 5 steps, there is no way to really know what the guy's Intent was, but it certainly sounded like he was Interviewing ZeSpectre, and was Positioning himself. So far the first 3 steps, definately two of them, were done during his encounter. The next step is Attack by the guy he encountered.

Also covered in the article is the AOI triangle, Ability, Opportunity, Intent. Like the fire triangle, take one of the sides away, and the triangle/threat collapses. Sounds like the person he encountered had the Ability due to his size, certainly the Opportunity as Ze felt like he was snuck up on and was basically cornered. All that lacked was Intent, which will always be nebulous.

The fastest way to figure out if you are in potential danger is to look for these three elements. If you see one, look for the others. If you see two out of three stop whatever else you are doing and pay close attention for a moment. If you see him trying to develop the third, withdraw from the situation to a safer area.

Sounds like Ze couldnt withdraw to a safer area, and did the next best thing by making sure the knew he should not advance any more. I can only hope I react as well should I ever need to. Good job, and thanks for sharing.