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View Full Version : Aren't 50 year old shotguns eligible for C&R?


DG45
October 1, 2009, 11:00 AM
I never see shotguns on anybody's top ten C&R list and I wonder why not? Aren't they C&R eligible? And, isn't a 12 guage in the closet the ultimate HD weapon that a handgun is meant to keep you alive long enough to get to? And what could be a more versatile gun for hunting than a 12 Ga. shotgun?

I mention this because I recently purchased a well made John Browning-designed Remington Model 11 shotgun manufactured in 1938. I bought it at a gun show and paid the full asking price of $200. For that I got a 12 Ga. semi-automatic gun in VG condition, with a 26" IC barrel and a five shot capacity. It has a beautiful checkered stock and hunting scene rollmarks imprinted on both sides of the receiver. Over 850,000 Model 11's were made between 1911 and 1948. (50,000 or so of those were ordered by the US military in WWII.) Another 200,000 or so very similar but only three-shot capacity shotguns called the Remington "Sportsman" model were also made before 1948.

What's crazy is that I now realize I didn't get a particularly good deal on my Model 11. Since I bought it, I've seen one just like it selling for $150 and a Sportsman for $125. Still, I consider my $200 purchase a steal because (a) I purchased a very useful, shootable gun, and (b) I feel sure it's depreciated out, and will soon begin to appreciate in value again to at least double what I paid for it. IMHO there just aren't any better buys than this to be had in the gun world today. You might want to consider putting one of these on your short list of "must haves".

Chipperman
October 1, 2009, 11:29 AM
If you look at most peoples' C&R lists, it almost always consists of Mil-surp stuff.

You certainly have a point, though.
Add shotguns, old leverguns, etc to your list and be happy. :D

carguychris
October 1, 2009, 12:01 PM
Just for the entertainment value, may I present arguably the most famous photograph in American history featuring a Remington Model 11. :cool:

http://texashideout.tripod.com/bdrop.jpg

The folks in the photo are Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow. The Model 11's barrel has been sawed off, and if anyone's wondering about the apparent lack of a shoulder stock, it has been cut off behind the wrist to make the gun into a "Whipit" that can be concealed beneath an overcoat. The user could "whip it" out during a holdup, hence the name. This was a common modification amongst Prohibition-era outlaws and gangsters.

I'm quite interested obtaining a C&R Model 11 and maybe some C&R non-military bolt-action rifles, but it seems that there's nowhere near as much documentation about these guns as compared to milsurps. I think that this fact, plus the lack of a connection to military or Old West history, has made these guns less popular than they should be.

DG45
October 1, 2009, 01:05 PM
Hey! Neat photo of Bonny and Clyde! As I mentioned in my opening post, about 50,000 Model 11's were purchased by the US military in WWII and do have military markings, etc. stamped on them. I guess those guns would be considered military surplus, although some of them that survived can be found at gun shows, etc. so I guess all the ex-military guns are already in general circulation. Many of those WWII military shotguns were used in turret simulators to train aerial gunners, and some were used to give officers some recreational skeet opportunities, and others were used by guards who were guarding POWs and military prisoners; however, I' ve read (but can't prove) that many others of those that were ordered in riot gun conformation went to the Navy for shipboard service and were sometimes issued to the Marines as the best weapon availiable for use in the dense jungles of the Pacific theatre where the fighting was often up close and personal. (These Model 11 shotguns had a five shot capacity, and loaded with 00 Buckshot, they could spray a jungle with nine 59 grain 34 cal. lead pellets per shot. Pretty deadly stuff, I'd say, and a lot better choice of weaponry for jungles than an M-1, (or even an M-16, for that matter!)

Chipperman
October 1, 2009, 03:02 PM
Any gun I buy that fits C&R qualifications is done via C&R transfer. It saves some time not having to do the NICS check.

koolminx
October 1, 2009, 03:23 PM
What's C&R? I'm a fisherman, and I'm SURE it's not what I think :)

cougar gt-e
October 1, 2009, 10:43 PM
Few C&R guns are released after being caught...

DG45
October 1, 2009, 10:49 PM
No it doesn't mean catch and release. Assuming that your question is serious, C&R is a term that means "curios and relics." A lot of military surplus guns fall into this category, and many other guns of a certain age. I don't have a C&R license myself so I don't know all the details, but as I understand it, people who want to buy guns that meet C&R eligibility requirements can buy a C&R license for a few bucks which allows them to legally buy C&R guns directly from a seller without having to either buy an expensive Federal Firearms License or otherwise be restricted to buying the gun through a FFL licensed dealer and paying that dealers markup.

koolminx
October 2, 2009, 12:04 AM
Thanks. I have no clue what 99% of these dang old acronym's and initials are that you all use here.... :)

gyvel
October 2, 2009, 05:01 AM
C&R=Curio & Relic.

The license is also known as "Class 03 FFL" (That's: "oh-three") (NOT to be confused with Class III SOT for NFA weapons dealers.)

It's $30 for three years.

You must NOT engage in the business of selling firearms as a source of income.

You must keep a bound book of purchases; However, you don't have to turn your records in if you surrender the license.

You MAY sell weapons from your collection, but they must be logged out of your book, and recorded to whom they were sold

It allows you to purchase, interstate, any weapon that was made at least 50 years prior to whatever the current date is, OR, if LESS than 50 years old, is specifically listed on BATFE's "Curio & Relic" list.

This all hinges on the legality of making such purchases in your home state, and in some cases the originating state. (CA, NY, NJ, CT, MA all come to mind.)

You may NOT use the license to purchase any "modern" weapon (i.e. less than 50 years old) that is not on the list.

Unfortunately, there are some dealers out there who are not savvy enough to realize that some guns, which are obviously more than 50 years old, are C&R's just because they don't specifically appear on BATFE's list.

That's not all of it, but that's the high points.

koolminx
October 2, 2009, 10:51 AM
Thanks Gyvel!

James K
October 2, 2009, 06:13 PM
For a number of reasons, shotguns have never acquired the collector interest of rifles and handguns. One reason is that relatively few shotguns were used by the military and shotguns in general don't have the "combat aura" of military rifles and handguns. Also, shotguns have traditionally been the tools of hunters and skeet/trap shooters, good sports all but without the "excitement" of military or police use.

There certainly are shotgun collectors; many collect English doubles that would cost most of us several years' pay. Others collect American top grade guns, some of which are also very pricey (Parker). But there are collectibles in the "common" shotguns; examples would be the Winchester Models 1887, 1893, 1897, 1911 and some Model 12's, as well as Spencers. Shotguns made for the military are also high on the collectibility list.

Jim

Pathfinder45
October 3, 2009, 01:28 AM
carguychris, your posting of Bonnie Parker's photo on October 1st just happens to be on her birthday. Do you know if she is at all related to Cynthia Ann Parker? But I digress.... Is my model 1912 Winchester pump shotgun C&R eligible? Mine was made in 1914; it's a 12 gauge.

darkgael
October 3, 2009, 04:33 AM
What's C&R?
As noted. it means Curios and Relics, a license and also the title of this forum - one of the headings that you can click on to get in here.
About old shotguns - ever hear of SAD (Shotgun Aquisition Disease)? It's a syndrome to which certain shooters are susceptible and which has no known cure. It how the Parkers and Le Fevers and Ithacas and Fox and L.C. Smiths start to show up in the gun cabinet. One of the primary symptoms was described in the OP there just aren't any better buys than this to be had in the gun world today.

Sigh, he.s got it.
Pete

carguychris
October 4, 2009, 07:54 AM
carguychris, your posting of Bonnie Parker's photo on October 1st just happens to be on her birthday.
Wow spooky, her 99th birthday no less. :cool:
Is my model 1912 Winchester pump shotgun C&R eligible? Mine was made in 1914; it's a 12 gauge.
Yes, if it's over 50 years old, it's automatically C&R.

As referenced earlier in this thread, a lot of shooters and some dealers don't understand this provision. OTOH some dealers won't honor C&R status on particular firearms simply because they don't know enough about the gun to know for certain that it's over 50 years old.

FYI one of the niceties of a C&R license when buying from an 01 Dealer FFL is that you're exempt from the NICS check. You don't have to check a bunch of "NO" boxes and wait for the phone call- all you do is hand over a signed copy of your license and you're done. :)

MGMorden
October 5, 2009, 12:29 PM
As you've heard, 50+ year old shotguns certainly ARE C&R eligible, but the main reason that you don't see them is that there are few sources of purchasing bulk lots of C&R eligible ones. The C&R dealers that we know and love purchase truckloads of the guns they advertise at one time. That type of inventory is generally only available from large government organizations clearing out retired arms. Shotguns have always had a very limited role in military use. Sure some were used, but not in large quantities.

Weapons that were primarily marketed to and bought by civilians though, are already scattered amongst the market to be sold one at a time. Often times though if you contact an individual seller on somewhere like Gunbroker and explain to them the C&R situation, they'll happily ship the gun to you as it is eligible (though not always - sometimes they are in CYA mode and want to ship to a regular FFL to be safe. while annoying, that certainly is their perogative).

DG45
October 6, 2009, 01:37 AM
Thanks for the info. Makes a lot of sense as to why more old shotguns aren't purchased using a C&R. Nevertheless, many old shotguns are in fact C&R eligible, and I still wonder why one is never listed on anyone's favorite C&R list. What meets more needs than a shotgun?

Double Naught Spy
October 6, 2009, 03:53 AM
Do you know if she is at all related to Cynthia Ann Parker?

No, not directly or through immediate cousin lines.