Friend got mugged Wednesday afternoon

[MLeake]

He'd just flown into ATL, and was waiting to retrieve his checked bags. While waiting for his bags to pop up on the carousel, he decided to use the men's room adjacent to baggage claim.

He saw a couple of guys at the sinks as he walked in, but didn't think much of it, as it was an airport men's room. He set down his carry-on bag and laptop to either side of his feet while he used a urinal.

While he was still in midstream, he heard a voice tell him something on the lines of "don't turn around, don't look at me, just give me all your cash."

He thought it weird that the guy specifically asked for cash; meanwhile he was vividly recalling that the two guys he had seen were a lot younger than him, and both were over 6'5". He told the guy he had a money clip in his front pocket; the guy said to hand it over, but don't turn around.

My friend said he's standing there, with his fly open, and all he can think is how PO'd his wife will be if he gets killed in an airport men's room trying to play hero. So he pulls the money clip out of his pocket, and hands it back behind him. He hears a rustling of money, and then the clip is handed back to him.

The voice tells him not to turn away from the urinal until he hears the door close.

He waits, then zips up and hurries out to find a cop. There is one in the baggage claim, and he makes a report. The cop says there have been several cases that followed this MO recently, but they will check security video and try to identify any men matching the description of the two that my friend saw when he first entered the men's room.

Strangely, the muggers (my friend is pretty sure that large man 1 was the mugger and large man 2 was guarding the men's room door) didn't ask for or take his wallet, ID's, or credit cards; they didn't take his laptop or pilot bag (my buddy is somebody I know from work). Stranger, still, they took all his twenties, but left the ones in the money clip that was handed back to him.

He was pretty shaken up about it. He didn't know if his assailant(s) had any weapons, but wasn't about to turn around to find out. He was quite sure that at their respective sizes (he estimated 6'5" for one and 6'8" for the other) that either one could have beaten him senseless, let alone two of them, so whether they were armed was irrelevant to him.

I've given this a lot of thought, and can't fault him. I wouldn't have thought twice about the presence of people at a men's room sink - although I'd probably have paid more attention to movement toward me, I usually worry more about pick-pockets and bag-snatchers than muggers at airports. In his place, I'd definitely have just followed instructions. In mine, a dozen years younger and with a lot more H2H training, but unarmed (thanks, TSA) I probably would have, too - odds against two guys that size aren't great, especially if they could be armed (which they could have been, if they had come to the airport with intention to commit crimes, and no intention to penetrate TSA screening).

Thinking about it further, I wondered how I'd have reacted if I'd had a handgun on my belt, or my PM9 in my pocket. On the one hand, as it turned out for my friend, he wasn't harmed. On the other hand, there was no guarantee he would not be harmed even though he complied - although the odds do still favor a fairly safe, if cash poorer, outcome.

I'm still not sure if I'd have handed over cash, or told him I was grabbing a money clip but then drawn a weapon.

Thoughts?

[jgcoastie]

Turn around and pee on him... :eek::D

Glad your friend is okay.

[N.H. Yankee]

I see this as a sticky situation, turning around with a gun could end up bad also. The perp may be close enough to grab your arm and disarm you and now you have an angry armed perp. Also if you had to shoot an unarmed perp, there are many prosecutors who just want to make a name. This is a no win situation and I think even if armed handing over the money would have been the smart thing, verse's the macho hurt ego outcome. Now being a thinking man, I am always prepared and this is where Depends would have saved the day and the h#ll with the public restroom! I am always weary of public restrooms as they are a place where one can be isolated, glad your friend made it out OK.

[Rattlehead]

I'm not exactly surprised at the idea of wanting cash only - I've heard a couple stories of purses beings stolen from vehicles, and turning up in downtown areas with everthing still inside except the cash. It seems to be a common occurrence that they don't want to deal with ID theft, they just want a quick buck.

[Tom Servo]

The most important thing is that he's unharmed. Things can be replaced, life cannot.

Using a public urinal is a bad idea tactically. You're facing away from potential threats, situational awareness is reduced, and it's...ahem...a compromising position to be in with one's fly open. Good position for a gun grab, or for someone to simply bop my head against the wall.

Much better to use a stall.

[Coop de Ville]

Get the clip fingerprinted

[besafe2]

As far as I know not the first time for this at Atl. Airports are a great place for something like this as thanks to the .. TSA the bg know folks are not likely to be armed. Glad your friend is ok.

[Kyo]

take my word for it when i say i can legally carry at the ATL airport until the checkpoint where you get your luggage checked.
This is why i always use a stall with a door, even if I have to just go. lucky guy he didn't get hurt. Hope he is ok.
I don't see any embarrassment in asking an officer to accompany you to a bathroom because you think someone suspicious is there. I myself or any of my friends haven't ever been in the situation because we never go alone. Reading this makes me hate traveling alone more.

[americanworkmule]

Years ago, I was alone in a Johannesburg airport restroom when a few guys came in together when I was at a urinal. I was in such a hypersensitive alert stage as it was that I shut everything off midstream and started walking directly through them towards the door with a very serious look on my face.

I had been accosted earlier three separate times by guys grabbing at my bag offering to "help me with it." Thankfully I had swung the duffle bag on my shoulder in front of me so they couldn't grab it because once outside I realized I had never zipped up and was fully exposed.

Those guys were probably back in the restroom laughing to tears at the crazy dude with his package hanging out.

I was so glad to get back to America and just worry about the hell known as the ATL airport.

[ogunski]

This is why I always use the stall and lock the door behind me.

[Kyo]

I was so glad to get back to America and just worry about the hell known as the ATL airport.
I don't think Atlanta is that bad if you know how to handle yourself. But yes, traffic among other things like crime, and stupid people are pretty bad. Very hard imo to find good people around here.

[whip1]

Get the clip fingerprinted

Do you really think the ATL cops are going to waste thier time and money over $100?

[ZeSpectre]

Do you really think the ATL cops are going to waste thier time and money over $100?

Oh that just burns me up.

YES THEY WILL!
Because it may only be $100 from the OP's friend, but multiply that by a few victims and you're into felony territory very quickly.

Cops, by and large, will do their part but only if we do ours!

[Deaf Smith]

Six foot EIGHT? And nobody noticed them? Such hight would hit the top of sone doors.

Well it goes to show you that when you go to the restroom, and you are not armed, you make sure it's empty before doing anything. And if you pack heat, an appendix holster works very well to whip around and fire. You don't have to see the other guys gun, just have the reasonable fear of your life(and be able to explain that clearly to the authorites.

[cracked91]

The BGs actually seemed like they planned this one out pretty well when you think about it. Im thinking the reason they only wanted cash and nothing else is because you can't really identify stolen cash. If your caught with a stolen credit card or wallet, your screwed. And someone could describe other items stolen from them, but even if they did get arrested and searched unless a bill is marked a few hundred bucks is not a super uncommon amound for some people to have on them. Chances are they were facing away from the entrance so the victim did not get a good look at their faces. Then have one guy watch the door, while the other guy robs the victim. By the sound of it they would have no problem knocking out an uncompliant victim just with their size, but because it seemed they thought it through, I bet they had some kind of weapon to make that process easier. This is kind of a lose lose situation, but if they are really as tall as your friend said they are I bet they will be caught soon. Giants don't blend in too easily.

[Tom Servo]

take my word for it when i say i can legally carry at the ATL airport until the checkpoint where you get your luggage checked.
Careful. The 11th Circuit ruling effectively makes it a felony to carry in any part of Hartsfield Jackson.

[Rattlehead]

"The cop says there have been several cases that followed this MO recently"

This plus what ZeSpectre was saying... possibly. Personally, I'd write off the $100, but the prospect of taking @#(* like this down, it can't hurt to try.

Just my two pesos: if this is developing into a pattern, it's probably worth pursuing.

[ATW525]

And if you pack heat, an appendix holster works very well to whip around and fire.

I was thinking more along the lines of smartcarry plus a gun small enough to be drawn through the fly of the pants. Not much help in the airport, though.

[armoredman]

Never, ever use the urinal, ever. Glad your buddy is OK.

[txbirddog]

Well, if he "just flew into the ATL airport and waiting for his checked bags" there is NO way he could be armed unless he was an Air Marshall.

But this goes to show how the lilly livered libs can disarm us, but the criminals don't give a [darn]!

[mrnkc130]

thanks for the post..i never even thought of this kind of scenario...

[Nisei]

thanks for the post..i never even thought of this kind of scenario...

Same here, and I travel frequently. I guess I'll have my Situational Awareness Radar on full swing when I get on a plane later this week.

To OP: Thanks for sharing. May not be able to do anything as far as weapons and tactics go but a good wake-up call for most doesn't hurt one bit.

- Hiroshi

[SwampYankee]

This is why I always use the stall and lock the door behind me.

Me too. It doesn't matter where I am. Local restaurant, mall, airport, anywhere. And I never carry cash.

I'm flying into Atlanta middle of next month, I'll know to be even more careful than usual.

Thanks for the heads up.

[curt.45]

great, just great now us guys have to go to the bathroom in pairs too?

[MLeake]

Since this occurred in baggage claim, outside the TSA area, it's entirely possible that the BG's could have been armed - assuming they were not traveling, but had gone to ATL specifically to commit robberies and thefts. They could also be assured that passengers would not be armed.

Just thinking about it, I wonder why we don't read about more of these incidents occurring. Travelers very often carry cash - my friend was robbed of $200, not sure where the $100 estimate came from in a couple of posts in this thread. He was quite frankly very happy they didn't take his credit cards, blackberry, or laptop, but as somebody noted it may be that crooks know that cash is untraceable, whereas the other items can be traced.

One tip the military gave us some years back, that could be useful for this sort of scenario: carry a throwaway wallet or money clip, and keep the rest of your items in an interior pocket or money belt. You could even make the throwaway look better by putting an expired card in it - I doubt crooks take the time to check dates when they are trying to make a quick score.

I'm not sure I like a stall over a urinal - on the one hand, it limits the BG's access to you, but on the other it limits your own situational awareness. IE, what is lurking outside the door when you come out of the stall? Seems like sort of a trade-off, to me. Granted, there are times when the stall is the only option, either due to building layout or physiological necessity. I'm just not sure that one is tactically superior to another - with the exception that your back is covered while in the stall.

Ok, so maybe the stall does have a slight advantage. I'd still recommend checking for feet in vicinity prior to opening the door.

With regard to size estimates of the BG's, my friend is 6'1" / 230lbs, and he thought both the guys were a lot bigger than him. It's safe to say they were at least 6'4", even if we assume victim goggles making them larger than life. Note also that while my friend is older than me, he isn't elderly by any means, and he's not small - yet he was still selected, most likely because a) he was isolated, and b) he was unaware.

I asked my friend about fingerprinting the money clip (good suggestion, thanks). He almost kicked himself; now he's annoyed that he didn't think of it, and that the APD officer didn't suggest it.

With regard to the risk of pulling a firearm in the men's room (assuming it had been legal to carry - so in theory only): My concerns would have been, in this order: 1) A weapon may already be trained on me, or possibly two weapons; 2) Any miss is likely to go through walls into a crowded space.

I really don't worry too much about turning around only to have the guy disarm me, but then I have a background in wrestling, aikido, and arnis. I'm not quite confident enough to say that if you can take it before I can pull the trigger, you can have my pistol, but I'm not very far from that level of confidence. I do train at weapon retention and weapon takeaways, and highly recommend retention training to anybody who CCW's.

Thanks for all the food for thought. Feel free to keep it coming.

[Claude Clay]

I wonder why we don't read about more of these incidents occurring

possibly cause people have connections to make and finding someone to take your statement and whatnot takes time--so much so that you miss your flight.

carry a throwaway wallet and some throw-down $$.

all these years i never meet anyone else who did that!
i have always carried my wallet in my front left pocket--saved me a number of times from pick-pockets. i felt them try the back pocket and even made eye contact--man can they disappear fast in a crowd!!
my wife use to think that i over thought things. after reading and traveling the past 20 years with me she understands more why i do things a 'certain' way.

no matter how aware and careful you are, others can conspire and create a situation that you have no out from.
as your friend did--give them what they want.
i am very confidant the they are not going to hurt me. cause if they did--the police would be on them fast and hard. this they don't want.
and today one can travel with very little cash. split it in 3 places and give up a little. chalk it up to yet another airport tax.

[jgcoastie]

I'm surprised nobody else has though of a way around this situation entirely.

When you get off the plane, go pee in a restroom that is still in the "secure area"... At least that way, you'll know they don't have a weapon and that puts you on a somewhat level fighting field.

Aside from airports on the secure side of the security checkpoints, I do not use public restrooms unless it's an absolute emergency.

[troy_mclure]

Quote:
Do you really think the ATL cops are going to waste thier time and money over $100?

Oh that just burns me up.

YES THEY WILL!
Because it may only be $100 from the OP's friend, but multiply that by a few victims and you're into felony territory very quickly.

Cops, by and large, will do their part but only if we do ours!

ive seen several instances where police didnt bother to take prints, one was over 5 nites there were 16 cars broken into, the 5th nite 2 guys were suprised by a car owner with a bat.
they left behind blood, and a flat prybar. the cops didnt take it, even when the vehicle owner pointed it out to them.

[Stevie-Ray]

A friend of mine told me about his son being mugged. Evidently, he was approached from behind, a pistol barrel was placed against the back of his neck, and the guy said simply, "Gimme the money." He took his wallet out of his back pocket without turning around, pulled the money from it, and held the money over his left shoulder and the wallet over his right. The money was taken from his left hand and the perp was gone. What he figured went right was, in his words, "I didn't get shot." Can't really argue that logic. If I am ever taken that completely by surprise, I suspect I'd do the same. Much like your friend, whom I'm quite happy to hear is OK.

If I'm carrying a fairly large sum of money, most of it is in my front pocket, while less than a hundred dollars stays in the wallet. Nowadays though, I try to go mostly cashless.

[ATW525]

i am very confidant the they are not going to hurt me. cause if they did--the police would be on them fast and hard.

Years ago I saw someone who had his face bashed into urinal in a public restroom. It wasn't pretty, and the people who did it had to walk right by a manned security station to get to the bathroom and then again to leave.

[Deaf Smith]

When you get off the plane, go pee in a restroom that is still in the "secure area"... At least that way, you'll know they don't have a weapon and that puts you on a somewhat level fighting field.

And maybe just do that on the airplane before it lands.

carry a throwaway wallet

and some throw-down $$.

I like all those ideas.

And then, if you are in a state where your CCW is recognized, as soon as you get your luggage, go to the restroom (and keep aware if anyone follows you) and start packing your gun.

And it would not hurt to train to be able to use your fist and feet.

[Tom Servo]

They could also be assured that passengers would not be armed.
Gotta love gun-free zones. All they do is assure criminals that they've got a pool of unarmed potential victims.

I've never thought to carry a "throwdown" wallet, though I've known folks who had fake/expired passports they'd carry when travelling abroad, in case of hostage situations.

Similar logic with the wallet, and a good idea.

[Coop de Ville]

Do you really think the ATL cops are going to waste thier time and money over $100?

You'd be surprised what a fingerprint will link a criminal to.


-Coop

[pacerdude]

Well, in addition to my pacemaker and having to be frisked no matter what :eek:, because of the metal detectors, I now have another reason to hate flying. I can't skip the Atlanta airport either as I am from there, and my parents live there.

However, I am very glad that your friend is okay. And I don't think carrying your gun on your person, to an airport, (let alone one of the busiest in the country), is a good idea. It could get you into hot water quick.

[MLeake]

.. when I'd mentioned carrying a gun in ATL, when I realized you were referring to another poster in the thread.

The way "carrying your gun" followed "glad your friend is ok" almost seemed to link the two thoughts, though.

Just so we are clear, I don't advocate carrying anyplace where it is not legal to do so. OTOH, I try to avoid those places except when it becomes very impractical to do so.

[stephen426]

I hate to say it, but even being in a stall isn't much protection. If they have people guarding the door, they can easily give a "coast clear" signal and you're still out of luck. THey just have to point a weapon over the top of the stall and ask you to slide your wallet under the stall. You might never even see them.

I think a throw down wallet is probably the best bet in this situation since you are not likely to be armed. Even if you are armed, you are out numbered and they have the jump on you. I think avoiding using the restroom in non-sterile areas is also a great suggestion. I have had to go through Atlanta a few time and never felt any need for concern. Maybe my situational awareness was way too low! :eek:

[jgcoastie]

Maybe my situational awareness was way too low!

If that thought enters your mind, you're probably right: it is.

[Lost Sheep]

I started carrying my money and my ID, credit cards, etc in separate wallets since 1974. When I got to Asia, the first briefing I got in-country included the advice to put my important stuff in one wallet and cash in another. It was considered very bad form to lose your ration card or Military ID to a local.

Been doing it ever since.

Lost Sheep.

[besafe2]

To the op, again I'm glad your friend is ok.

On a side note I work in a major airline hub airport & have for almost 25 years. I always use the public restrooms(out side sterle area) & as of now have never had a problem. And being in an airline uniform the bg is going to know that I'm not armed. But airline employees have no money either:D:D

However after reading I'm going to be more careful. Thank you for posting this.

[Tennessee Gentleman]

I too like the idea of going in the stall and locking the door. Never thought of that one. I carry very little cash on me. I use debit card whenever possible. If robbed I can call my bank and turn it off before they could get to the candy stand next door. I seldom need cash personally. The thing is if they get the drop on you there is little you can do. The OP made me think about bathrooms in airports. Never even considered it.

[Rattlehead]

However after reading I'm going to be more careful. Thank you for posting this.

I hate doing +1 posts, but I gotta second this. Definitely a wakeup for me.

[Skans]

When I use a restroom in a public airport, especially Atlanta, I'm quite aware that I could possibly get mugged while peeing. This is an old and successful tactic used by young punks. So, I don't use urinals and I lock the door behind me. I leave my bagage, etc, with someone else I'm traveling with, if possible. If I have to bring my bagage in with me, I perch it on the toilet flusher, out of reach. But, the biggest thing I do is look to see who appears to be just lingering around the bathroom and if I think things don't look right, I leave.

Sometimes, just looking at the perps, even if it makes some people uncomfortable, is enough to deter them from doing anything to you. FWIW, this kind of crap has been going on in Atlanta's airports for decades. I've had someone reach under my stall in the Atlanta airport before, obviously looking for bagage, etc that someone leaves near the stall door. My response was I kicked the stall door - doubt it did anything. The Atlanta airport staff, security and workers could give a crap - you're on your own.

[N.H. Yankee]

I guess this is a case to lobby for PUBLIC URINAL PANIC BUTTONS:eek: I am always on guard when entering a public bathroom. This is a great place to be isolated and end up at someone's mercy. Realistically though sometimes you just have to go and take your chances.

[Daugherty16]

I have to admit being blind to this one also - altho i only ever fly during business hours and use the restroom (if nec) in the secured area.

Using the stall provides at least some measure of separation for you - you can't see them, but they can't see you either.

So they try to rob you through the closed stall doors, what's to stop you from peeing on their shooes under the door/partition? Think they'll shoot you? Bust in on you? Maybe gross out and leave? I don't know. But it would be my first reaction, absent any other weapon. What the heck - it worked for Cheech, and even if you still lose your money at least you got some payback.

What a tactical disadvantage!

[spacemanspiff]

The last time I traveled, I made a point of getting my baggage and immediately went to the restroom to retrieve necessary defensive items from the checked bags. While it only was two folding knives, I still was a little more prepared than the average joe.

And +1 on never using a urinal, because I sit down to pee. I'm man enough to admit that. Ya'll can laugh at me if you want. :D

[MikeGoob]

If you go in a stall and think someone may be waiting for you to come out, get on your cell phone (or pretend to) and talk to someone who is not far from the restroom waiting for you.

[SpectreBlofeld]

I have two thoughts, one responsible and one not.

The first (responsible) one is, if you're ever in this situation, airport or not, you shouldn't try to be a hero. You're in an - ahem - compromised situation, caught with your britches down, as it were. You're not going to be able to draw, turn, aim, and fire quickly enough to save yourself, so you should probably just comply and get out with your life. The fake wallet idea is a good one.

The second thought is the irresponsible one... I have my doubts that these guys were really armed, and if they were, that they would pull a trigger in the busiest airport in the world. They're probably bluffing, and I'd be tempted turn around and whizz on them to prove it. Still a very dangerous situation, of course, because knives and fists can kill too, and silently at that.

[Skans]

Here's the thing. First, you have your thing hanging out and you are concentrating on peeing. So, I don't know about you, but I'm feeling pretty vulnerable if two guys sneak up behind me while I'm taking care of business. No one likes to confront a couple of thugs with his thing hanging out of his pants - at least I don't.

Second, there are lots of things a guy can do to you when you are facing a urinal - most likely punch or shove your head into the plumbing or the wall, or get you in a choke hold. Unless you've thought out a counter manouver to what "could" happen before it does, you're screwed. The bad guy doesn't need a gun or knife to mess you up. On the other hand, if think about it, and if you know how to fight dirty, you could probably develop a good enough counter attack to get you out of this situation. Don't use a public urinal if you see two thugs wansing their hands or lingering around, or at least us the stall and be prepared to fight.

[MLeake]

... is real, but can be mitigated by training.

I'm not the least bit worried about whether I could turn while drawing and deal with an unarmed BG, thing hanging out or not. The issues for me are can I do it quickly enough to deal with an armed BG (possibly not) and what are the odds of rounds going places I don't want them to go?

A few years of wrestling, a couple years of kickboxing, and over ten years of aikido may not mean I'd kick the butt of a large and tough BG; they do mean I have very good odds of creating enough time and distance to bring a pocket, IWB, or OWB handgun into play. They also mean that I've trained in keeping him from taking the weapon from me, and that if he tries he's likely to get a couple abdominal or lower thoracic shots from a retention positioned pistol for his efforts.

This doesn't help if he's outside arm's reach and holding a firearm at the ready, however.

Again, my reaction would be based less on "heroics" or "ego" than my own perception of the BG's intentions - IE do I think the person is likely to harm me whether I comply or not? If so, then resistance becomes the far better option. If not, then compliance might be safer and wiser.

As far as the "disadvantage" of defending oneself with one's junk hanging out, if a 91 year old man can do it, then I suppose I can, too:

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/topic/sfl-home-invasion-091909-story,0,4074945.story

Cheers,

M

[IZZY]

Bathrooms are physically and PSYCHOLOGICALLY vulnerable spots in our lives.

Tight quarters, embarrassment, Iffy Locks, etc.

I almost always try to use a stall, it might help, it might not ( cant they mug you when you leave?)...but at least I have a little privacy.

I'm a fighter and I might get the poop kicked out of me, but I'd make em work for the money in any case. :)

Tall people are vunerable too, you can grab legs and get them down on the floor.

If you really have to go, stall available or not, choose your bathroom carefully. ( if possible in your gate, most have multiple options, just keep walking)

I have found people at airline desks to be most helpful, don't hesitate to approach them with any bathroom/ security concerns.

[AWP79]

I dont think I'll be using a urinal anymore. It just makes more sense to use a stall.

[Skans]

One other thing - if you need to use a bathroom in an Airport, use the ones that are beyond the bagage screening area. The thugs who usually wonder into the airport can't get beyond the screening area for many reasons, but mainly because they haven't purchased a ticket. This is especially true in Atlanta.

[Mr. James]

Thanks, IZZY, for the suggestion. Hadn't thought to ask an employee which he believes is the safest place to relieve himself. I use the post-screening locations when possible, on those increasingly rare occasions I fly.

Truth be told, I can't stomach the TSA goons, the security theatre, the stupid questions, the fee to check a friggin' bag, the utterly fraudulent seat pricing schemes, and the entire demeaning process- we're customers, for crying out loud.

[Stevie-Ray]

Truth be told, I can't stomach the TSA goons, the security theatre, the stupid questions, the fee to check a friggin' bag, the utterly fraudulent seat pricing schemes, and the entire demeaning process- we're customers, for crying out loud. If that aint the truth.....We once had 2 surly Mediterranean types in front of us and I fully expected the full treatment of those guys and so did the wife, as their nasty attitude was ticking off all the other travelers. They let them by with the most gracious "have a good days" I've yet seen, and proceeded to practically strip-search my handicapped wife in the chair. Obviously, they didn't want to be caught "profiling" and were thus going to be idiotic in the opposite way just to prove a point. One yelp out of my wife prompted me to rush her way and I was restrained. I let them know in no uncertain terms that there would be no rough treatment of her and I was holding them personally responsible for her well-being. From then on, they were nice as could be to me, and there were no more ill-handling moments on the wife's person. You said it best-goons. I would add morons. Sorry for the OT.

[markj]

I used to fly all over the place at my former job, I used the secure toilets in the terminal never the public ones, also used a stall every time.

[FM12]

Reminds me ofthe saying "Be polite to everyone you meet, but also have a plan to kill them". Be aware, but not paranoid. If it doesn't feel right,leave.