No Cure For Carelessness

[Parapliers]

I couldn't convince an accident prone acquaintance not to buy a pistol for personal protection so I went to the public range with him to try to mitigate the menace. On the first occurrence I had to hover over him constantly reminding and physically forcing him to keep his weapon pointed down range.
The second range session was no different from the first with the exception that he got the attention of the range officers who gave him stern warnings for numerous rule infractions. After that session I tried to have a heart to heart with him but he got all belligerent and told me that he has his own way of doing things. He has had his pistol and carry permit for two weeks and now he is the master and I am the student.
I will not be associating with this dangerous menace but am considering trying to get him to go to an NRA sanctioned training class since he is an NRA member. I am afraid this will only produce another qualified idiot because I don't believe that training is a cure for carelessness.

[GeauxTide]

Find another friend. You missed an opportunity to introduce your foot to his backside at the first range session. I had one instance like that many years ago and "convinced" the other person to modify his behavior.

[Dannyl]

Hi,
Depending on how much you like this friend, you could either get him to go for proper training ( I think any decent instructor will either get him to correct his bad habits, or kick him off the course) or sever you conections with him ( the part where he turned belligerent made me think he may not be a great friend, but maybe I am wrong)

Whatever you choose, I would avoid his company while he is armed. Bad habits with guns are usually repeated away from the range.

Brgds,

Danny

[Tom Servo]

He has had his pistol and carry permit for two weeks
This highlights a larger issue of people "buying guns to carry" with no training or experience. There's an impulsiveness and lack of long-term thinking involved there.

[KLRANGL]

In all seriousness, be belligerent back. He needs to know you are serious...

And I wouldn't follow the "find a new friend" comments. Real friends will tell friends when they are wrong, and help them. Don't give up on a friend.

This highlights a larger issue of people "buying guns to carry" with no training or experience. There's an impulsiveness and lack of long-term thinking involved there.
I agree, but its a bit of a problem when exposure to guns is sort of taboo away from home. I would bring firearm safety classes and rifle teams back into public school, but that's just me...

[Kyo]

in all honesty i would just file a report with the police. get the RO's who were there to also give some say. if an "accident" happens, you can have proof that he's being reckless.
Thats messed up...

[Russ5924]

I had a friend something like that. Everything he bought he wrecked it or some accident would befall it in some way or another. He moved to Arizona because his parents had moved there. His Father bought him a pistol, he ended up killing himself with it in just a few weeks. I was told he was drinking with some friends he started waving the gun around pointing at people. He put it to his head and pulled the trigger, if he had lived would have been a vegetable. This was a person who had never owned a gun in his life:(

[Kyo]

Darwin's theory strikes again.

[ZeSpectre]

I had a friend something like that. Everything he bought he wrecked it or some accident would befall it in some way or another.

I hate to say it but I think we've ALL had at least one "friend" like that.

Somehow the "accidents" or breakdowns or whatever were always "just the darndist bad luck" :rolleyes:

I got pretty good at walking away from those types of folks.

[kiov]

I'd treat him the same way as someone who cant handle their booze...walk away. People like that are a liability. They will manage to harm both themselves and those around them--usually while claiming, "it wasn't my fault."

You tried to talk to him, and that was as much, or perhaps more, than he deserved considering his angry reaction.

I make and keep friends who are worthy of that level of trust. Sometimes I misjudge people, but once I realize someone is reckless or stupid, I make tracks.

[CWPinSC]

"You can't fix stupid."

Also: you can't save the whole world, just try to not be near them when they go off.

[Parapliers]

I appreciate all the feedback from senior members. This had really been bothering me. The subject is actually an in-law who has seriously injured himself with every power tool that he has used. His driving record is abominable and he is just another "accident" waiting to happen. I always thought Jeff Cooper's rules of gun safety just about covered it all but lately I've been thinking that maybe there should be at least one more like: Never give a gun to a baby or a chimp. or Don't drag your gun behind you with a string.
Seriously, I don't think there should be new law concerning this but shouldn't there be a way to discourage initiates from acting beyond their experience level? Perhaps always suggest revolvers for first handgun or not carrying automatic with round in chamber until one has managed to prove to himself that he can carry without mishandling or dropping it.

[fastforty]

I'm pretty sure that I know that guy ;) Fortunately, he never got his hands on a gun while I knew him.

I'd go back and have a talk with the RO. Let him know that the guy continues to be a hazard to himself & all that are within bullet's range of him. I'm sure that the RO could make a report that would wind up in suspension of carry permit until such a time that the guy takes proper training & demonstrates that he isn't a hazard.

[Tom Servo]

The subject is actually an in-law who has seriously injured himself with every power tool that he has used. His driving record is abominable and he is just another "accident" waiting to happen.
I'll say it.

Unfortunately, guns are not for everyone. It's one thing for him to injure himself, but the possibility of him injuring someone else is unacceptable.

[Rattlehead]

I'd treat him the same way as someone who cant handle their booze...walk away. People like that are a liability. They will manage to harm both themselves and those around them--usually while claiming, "it wasn't my fault."

I wouldn't walk away if - as Tom and others have pointed out - the threat extends beyond himself. A self-destructive friend, maybe... one who poses a danger to others, I can't, at least as long as there's a prayer (even if it destroys the friendship), of me being able to push him toward safer actions.

I hope that my friends would do the same for me... just my 2 cents.

[Parapliers]

I did talk to the senior RO at the time but we ended up reminiscing about our time in RVN. It didn't occur to me to put the finger on my nut because I hadn't given up on him yet. I think that is the best suggestion yet, Fast Forty. Don't know if license could be revoked but RO could put the fear of God in him by the suggestion.

[Vanya]

If he's an in-law, it's a bit hard just to write him off, it's true... I'd make it clear to him that you won't shoot with him, and don't want him handling guns around you, until he's had some serious instruction, like that NRA sanctioned training class you mentioned. If he refuses to do that, then I think fastforty's idea of involving the RO is an excellent one.

I'm a bit hesitant to ask this, but is this someone who's "just" accident-prone, or do alcohol and/or drugs play any part in his careless behavior? If so, you might should involve the RO in this situation now... that would make your rellie someone who should not be carrying.

[Parapliers]

Vanya, that was a legitimate question. He is just accident prone possibly ADD. The most careless reckless person I have ever known. Constantly breaking things and knocking things over, burning holes with cigarettes etc. He can learn and I am sure he could easily pass a safety course but he will never be a conscientious person. He may even be an NRA qualified instructor in the near future.

[KLRANGL]

I have an issue with the "you cant fix stupid" crowd.
You don't need to be smart to be gun safe. The more you drill proper gun safety into his mind, the more safe he'll be. One class wont do it, it has to be ingrained into him...

[Vanya]

I have an issue with the "you cant fix stupid" crowd.
You don't need to be smart to be gun safe. The more you drill proper gun safety into his mind, the more safe he'll be. One class wont do it, it has to be ingrained into him...
Very true. And it points up what a dilemma this is for the OP, who is rightly concerned for his own safety around this fellow, but wants to do what he can to see that he's not endangering others.

He doesn't need to be smart to be gun safe, but he probably does need to be conscientious, and while drilling gun safety would help, I don't know how you'd get someone to change a lifelong habit of carelessness.

What a difficult position to be in...

[Deaf Smith]

now he is the master and I am the student.

The what?

The friend of yours will have to find his own way. Humility and the realization that we are all failable is the halmark of maturity. This man is not there yet. So he will have to find his own way. It may be a rocky road, but that's how he will have to learn.

Von Bismarck was right. "Fools say that they learn by experience. I prefer to profit by others experience."

I wish the young man lots of luck.

But, I hope you didn't tell him he was accident prone. That insult would just make him determined to buy the gun and carry it, just to show you he could.

[Nnobby45]

I am afraid this will only produce another qualified idiot because I don't believe that training is a cure for carelessness.


I believe training is the cure for carelessness , but I'm not sure the guy's problem is carelessness. I've known otherwise intelligent people who I couldn't trust around a gun. They simply never developed anything resembling muzzle consciousness.

In all seriousness, be belligerent back. He needs to know you are serious...


Oh right. Just because avoiding verbal altercations is one of the first things emphasized in any good CCW class, doesn't mean you should heed the advice. What could go wrong with two beligerents yelling at one another while armed?:rolleyes:

[Mello2u]

Some people learn more slowly than others and in different ways. Some people have all they can do to remember to breath when they walk and adding complexity to that is a real challenge for them.

Parapliers
He can learn and I am sure he could easily pass a safety course but he will never be a conscientious person. He may even be an NRA qualified instructor in the near future.

Part of the instruction given to NRA Certified Instructors includes that a student who attends a course does not get certified by merely attending and/or passing a written test. The instructor has the subjective decision whether the student has learned the proper attitude and skills necessary for safe gun handling and shooting.

[swk314]

I hate to say it but I think we've ALL had at least one "friend" like that.



I am in agreement with ZeSpectre. We all know people who should not be allowed to own firearms, operate power tools, cars etc. I knew several guys that thought they knew everything, and practiced unsafe firearms practices. Another friend and I remedied this when we asked to see his brand new Glock, and while he wasn't looking removed the firing pin. We gave it back to him after he went to a safety class.

[KLRANGL]

Oh right. Just because avoiding verbal altercations is one of the first things emphasized in any good CCW class, doesn't mean you should heed the advice. What could go wrong with two beligerents yelling at one another while armed?
Well if you want to make the assumption that it would degrade into a physical yelling match then be my guest...
But we all know what happens when we assume ;)

Im pretty sure I've had plenty of fights with my friends, and it never ended with anyone being shot... Maybe its because we are all mature people, who explain our point of view to make an argument... but I mean if you feel you cant control yourself, then by all means don't.
Now if this was someone you don't know, then yes, most certainly avoid any sort of confrontation. There is no benefit there. But as fallible as we all are, even best friends fight. Family members fight, spouses fight...

[snevensmores]

Nothing irritates me more than someone being careless with a weapon. Ok, I take that back -- the one that the irritates me even more than that is someone pointing to their trigger finger and saying, "This is my safety." What a load of crap. In my younger years (haha, I'm 25 and still call them my "younger years"), I used to play paintball. More than once, I'd dive or slide and accidentally pull the trigger. Luckily, with proper protection, a paintball is entirely safe... unless you're not wearing a jock strap and a cup...

In the years since then, I have become a police explorer and later an explorer advisor. I stress to the cadets, ever too often, that you do not draw a weapon unless you intend to use it, and you do NOT point a weapon, even if you're "sure" that's it's unloaded, at anything you do not intend to destroy.

My buddy, who has been shooting guns and hunting since childhood -- much longer than me -- is often careless. I've absolutely flipped out on him before. I'm glad to take him to the range that I have a membership to, but if he's careless, our little get together is over. I will not tolerate having a weapon pointed at me. Your ego can get you killed, or, even worse, it can kill someone that you care about.

End of rant -- I would just feel horrible for someone to accidentally kill a loved one because he/she was trying to be "cool." That's something that will stick with you for the rest of your life, and it's just not worth it.

[mustang_steve]

That attitude of his wouldn't even last one second past it hitting my ears. We are all students, and even the youth can teach the elders a thing of two. Be receptive and consider any advice so long as it's sound in reasoining.

If he was the master, then perhaps the range officer wouldn't have had to approach him? Of course, therefore he is less than the master, actually he is less than everyone else in that range the range master did not approach, and should keep his attitude locked away far tighter than his mouth is.

Ignorance is something I have zero tolerance for, as it's the root of irresponsiblity.

[GeauxTide]

If he's an In(Out)law, don't let him in your house while he's packed.

[ECHOONE]

It amazes me how people can get there permits to carry so easily with minimal to no training what so ever.This is a very serious problem that's overlooked and needs to be addressed.There should be some way we could police ourselves and some how report such individuals so that they could be forced to get the proper training before the hurt themselves or another innocent bystander!
Case in point: My 78 yr old father in law,he is a vet,was a cook,had minimal small arms train way back in his basic training during that was all the experience he had with firearms,he never so much as touched any type of weapon after that in his life! Last yr he decides out of the clear blue he needs some protection for himself and wife due to burglaries that were happening in the area. Filled out the paper work had his criminal record checked and due to the fact he was a vet,he was waived from having to take any and all pistol safety/operational/ courses! I'm sorry but this is crazy,he had no idea what so ever how to even open the revolver to load it,no idea how to clean it,no idea they even had basic stances for firing!The day he bought it I walked in he's sitting in the kitchen dry firing it at the cookie jar not knowing it can damage the pistol,*( The type the doesn't believe he has to read manuals as he's been around the block at his age and knows everything).I turn my head to find him loading it with the barrel laying into his right leg,he closes the loaded cylinder and his finger is on the trigger barrel still stuck down on his leg,I start yelling at him to get his finger of a loaded gun pointed at his leg he pulls the gun up off his leg nervous and upset realizing his mistake but points it at me with his finger still on the trigger!!!!!!!!!
I tried to talk to him and tell him he needed a refresher course of some type for safety,to learn the different shooting stances and familarization of the pistol itself.I even explained it was nothing to be ashamed of.I told him I was vet to 11b10 tour in Nam and I took a refresher course,and when ever I can afford it I go to a shooting school!There's always new techniques,you always pickup bad habits!But as he puts it,For his situation he has all the basic knowledge needed to defend himself and his wife in his home,his car and any where he might go,as he never takes his finger off that trigger!!!!!!!
I tried my best,but he knows better then me, and there's alot just like him,there needs to be some way to police these type of individuals before some serious accidents start to happen and reflect back on all of us as a whole.It makes me nervous to think he has a pistol in his house!I have told him so,He has even asked to go shooting with me and I have refused until he can show me a certificate of some type of training.He Doesn't Like this Son in Law anymore,go figure................

[ZeSpectre]

This is a very serious problem that's overlooked and needs to be addressed.

Actually the interesting thing is that it ISN'T a "very serious problem" excepting on an individual basis.

What I mean is that in terms of actual death/injury from negligence, firearms hardly rate at all, especially when compared to the other common things that people screw around carelessly with (especially cars and boats).

Which isn't to say that I won't slap someone silly if they are negligent right next to ME with a firearm.

[Tom Servo]

It amazes me how people can get there permits to carry so easily with minimal to no training what so ever.This is a very serious problem that's overlooked and needs to be addressed.
We have to tread carefully there, even though I've had the same thoughts myself.

You just can't legislate common sense. What's more, you don't want to try: it's a slippery slope towards onerous regulation that could make life harder for us all.

All said, I'm squarely with the "just walk away" crowd. The guy's going to cause trouble, he seems unlikely to listen to advice...well, you can't fix that. All you can do is make sure you're not the one getting hurt.

[peetzakilla]

You just can't legislate common sense. What's more, you don't want to try: it's a slippery slope towards onerous regulation that could make life harder for us all.

Bingo. You're right on the mark with that. I've had the discussion with people more than once about common sense. Common sense can not be legislated because common sense CAN NOT be taught, at least not to an adult. Sure, somebody somewhere had no common sense and eventually "learned" but they are by far the exception. Some people think that common sense can be taught but most of those who believe so are not talking about actual common sense. For example, you should not have to be taught (as an adult) that pointing a gun at someone is dangerous. You're a big person now, no one needs to hold your hand. Unless you live under a rock then you know what a gun is, you know what a gun does and you know what it means to be shot. If you DON'T understand the concept then someone MIGHT be able to essentially "beat you" into following the rules.... but you will only follow the rules exactly as they were shown you... no other situation applies. So, unless you can teach these people EVERY SINGLE possible scenario then they will never act appropriately.

That's the real difference. That, in essence, is what common sense is.... the ability to extrapolate knowledge and experience from one situation to another unrelated situation. You either have it or you don't.


Point 2: We are a free people. The COTUS provide no provision for restricting someone whom "we" feel "might" be dangerous. There is criminal behavior and then there's everything else. The path of restricting not just behavior but POTENTIAL behavior is a slippery one indeed.

[Parapliers]

If people are afraid of weapons, that's their problem. If they are only afraid of your weapon then that's your problem.

1. The gun is always loaded.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger unless you are ready to shoot.
4. Be be sure of your target and what is beyond it.
5. Don't create a terrorist threat.

I intend to try to get my low yo-yo into a training class. Too bad his weapon of choice is dangerous beyond the length of an extension cord or I wouldn't worry about it. Even so, he is more of a threat to himself and his immediate family than to anyone else.
Thanks again for the thoughtful comments.