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View Full Version : Any one know anything about the aa12???


vince972
September 21, 2009, 07:48 PM
Anyone heard anything about the aa12???? were it comes from how much it is and were someone could get one... and would it be classified as illegal unless u have proper papers for it since it is fully auto

Brian Pfleuger
September 21, 2009, 07:57 PM
Developed after 1986 ban, I think it would be illegal for all but Class III dealers, even if you could get one it would probably be the price of a 2010 Corvette ($50,000+)

oneounceload
September 21, 2009, 08:02 PM
Here's some history - actually developed before the 86 ban.....but you better have a house full of cash

http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh29-e.htm

Brian Pfleuger
September 21, 2009, 08:03 PM
actually developed before the 86 ban.

No kidding?! Hm, still.... just buy a house, it's more useful and probably cheaper.

vince972
September 21, 2009, 08:05 PM
damn lol thanks for the info

Brian Pfleuger
September 21, 2009, 08:45 PM
I must say though....

Imagine the destruction wrecked by that monster firing 360 rounds per minute of buckshot?! Holy smokes.:eek:

Of course, that's what.... $200 a minute for ammo? No worse than any full auto I guess... but you get to hold it down while it goes!

oneounceload
September 21, 2009, 08:56 PM
Even better - make it slugs! or the grenades made for it!:eek:

FORKLIFT352
September 26, 2009, 12:17 AM
AAAAAAAAAAAhhhhhh......I love that thing!:rolleyes:

kellanbarnett
September 26, 2009, 02:10 AM
look like a bunch of fun :)

Double Naught Spy
September 26, 2009, 04:02 AM
I wish they would do a semi-auto version. The recoil dampening appears very impressive.

Skans
September 28, 2009, 08:51 AM
The USAS-12 was made in full auto (not legal in the US, post '86) and semi-auto. It fires from a closed bolt and looks like an M16 on steroids. I have the semi-auto USAS-12 and it is a very well made, well functioning gun. It uses 20 round drums or 10 round box mags. They're still not outrageously expensive, although they do transfer on a Form 4 because they are registered as Destructive Devices. You'd be surprised how fast you can fire the USAS-12 in semi-auto.

Better yet, just buy a Tromix Saiga and a Wraithmaker 20 round drum - just a good old 12 gauge shotgun..................................for now.:D

Out of all of these kinds of guns, the USAS-12 is the better made of them.

Double Naught Spy
September 28, 2009, 07:56 PM
The USAS-12 does not have the recoil dampening qualities of the AA12.

Skans
September 29, 2009, 08:05 AM
The USAS-12 does not have the recoil dampening qualities of the AA12.

Have you ever fired a USAS-12? The recoil is about as light as you will find in any 12 gauge. Granted, I've never fired an aa12, so I can't compare it to that gun. But, it is based on the same design principles to reduce recoil:

" The interesting feature, borrowed from Atchisson designs, is the long bolt overtravel, which results in relatively low peak recoil and low rate of fire, which is essential for weapon firing powerful 12 gauge shells. USAS-12 is an ambidextrous weapon, having two ejection ports on each side of the receiver, and two slots on the forearm for cocking handle."

In addition to the relatively light recoil, it uses a rotating locking bolt, its designed as a select fire weapon making it robust, and it's ambidexterous.

What more could you want in a Skeet gun?:D

flight954
September 29, 2009, 03:00 PM
Other than regular civis like myself can't own one because it would cost a boat load of cash and or a field of red tape.:barf:

4thPointofContact
September 29, 2009, 08:23 PM
The USAS-12 does not have the recoil dampening qualities of the AA12.

Based upon the review done in Combat Tactics Fall 2007, Volume Five, Number Two; specifically the picture on page 149, and comparing it with the USAS-12 sitting in my gun safe, I'd say there is a distinct similarity.

AA-12 - gas operated, locked breech, long recoil system, 966mm barrel, 4.76kg bare weight, straight line stock
USAS - gas operated, locked breech, long recoil system, 960mm barrel, 5.50kg bare weight, rising line stock (stock is actually higher at the shoulder than at the receiver)
Both use a rather long spring, about 18 inches in length.
The AA12, firing from an open bolt and weighing less is probably worse in terms of recoil and accuracy. With the stamped steel and polymer stock, it's likely less expensive than the forged receiver of a USAS though.

What do you base your opinion on?

Double Naught Spy
September 30, 2009, 06:51 AM
I base my opinion on watching the videos of the guns firing and reports of their firing. You have better information to the contrary?

Of course, being very bulky and heavy (12.1 lbs) does help dampen the recoil of the USAS-12 http://huntingfirearmsguide.com/2009/09/28/usas-12-shotgun-2/ as opposed to the less bulky and lighter AA12 that weighs 10-10.5 lbs (depending on model).

The AA12 has the constant recoil reduction system that keeps the bolt from bottoming out, all but eliminating felt recoil. See SOF review at the bottom of the pages in this link..http://www.defensereview.com/auto-assault-12-shotgunfrag-12-high-explosive-round-comboweapon-system/

I have seen video of the AA12 being fired one-handed in full auto and controlled. Does the USAS12 have this ability?

Skans
September 30, 2009, 07:35 AM
I have seen video of the AA12 being fired one-handed in full auto and controlled. Does the USAS12 have this ability?

I can only talk about what I know. I have never fired an aa12. Nor have I ever fired a full-auto USAS-12 - as far as I know, none were registered before the machinegun ban so I doubt that you will find anyone who has fired a full auto USAS-12.

I do have two open bolt semi-auto .45 carbines. The recoil on these openbolt guns is different, but substantial because of the heavy springs and heavy bolts slamming shut. I personally don't like the feel of open bolt guns and find them inferior to good closed bolt designs.

But for the weight of the USAS-12, I probably could fire it with one hand - maybe I'll try this next time. It's weight makes firing it one-handed akward, but the recoil is comparable to that of an FN FAL.

Willie Lowman
September 30, 2009, 08:29 AM
Skans, What does the the trigger group in the USAS look like?

From the outside it looks like a AR lower to me and I have always wondered if you could use a Lightning Link or a R.D.I.A.S. in one.

Skans
September 30, 2009, 09:04 AM
The outside looks of the USAS-12 is deceiving, in that the internals are very different than the AR15 / M16. The trigger group is different from the AR15, and the dimensions inside the lower receiver are substantially different/larger. Also, the bolt design is completely different than the AR15 and the gas opperating system uses a big piston.

I'm doing this from memory, but the trigger itself is similar to the AR, but the hammer and other parts are different. When you fire it, the trigger does have a nice crisp break like the AR. If I get a chance to take take a picture of the internals of the USAS-12, I will post it here.

There is no way to use the registered lightning links or DIAS's in the USAS-12.

4thPointofContact
September 30, 2009, 07:52 PM
"...The USAS-12 does not have the recoil dampening qualities of the AA12."

Double Naught, you still haven't revealed what dampening qualities the AA12 possess over the slightly heavier, exact same recoil system USAS-12. Care to elaborate more? I'll reiterate, the USAS and the later AA12 use the same 'constant reaction recoil reduction system' (aka, a spring about a foot and a half long).


Re: full-auto controllability (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siOEEOTjGqM). Yeah, I can hold my USAS in the exact same way, the extra 1.5lbs isn't going to break my wrist. Heck, I can do it with the 20-round mag, not just the 10 as shown with the AA12. I don't see why anyone would want to do it though. In the linked video you can see the muzzle bobbing down like the end of a fishing pole with a 10-lb bass (:27 mark) and he's taking a step backwards (:43 sec mark). I'll give him the bobbing muzzle, it can't be easy to hold steady when a bolt group as heavy as that flies forward in an open bolt weapon. Not exactly conductive to controllability.

In fairness, the third guy in this clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wo1dTSXXCxY) takes a few steps back as well, but the first two don't. I'd put money on it being the first time he handled one and wasn't set up properly.


Do I have any evidence to the contrary?
No, not unless you count a little first-hand experience with the USAS-12, I guess. I've only had mine since May of '91.


Hey Skans...you know what really bugs me? There's just enough difference where the pistol grip attaches to the receiver that using a Magpul MIAD grip is a no-go, and the folding trigger guard is just a tad longer than an AR's so you can't put a Magpul trigger guard can't be used either. I guess no one was looking 10 years into the future back in the 20th century.

Double Naught Spy
September 30, 2009, 08:17 PM
Show me that the recoil systems are the exact same, please. I still can't find where that is documented. If you are right, great! Still I would like to see the documentation.

4thPointofContact
September 30, 2009, 10:33 PM
The Auto Assault-12 (AA-12) (originally designed and known as the Atchisson Assault Shotgun) is a shotgun developed in 1972 by Maxwell Atchisson ... The original design was the basis of several later weapons, including the USAS-12 combat shotgun. 1

The history of the USAS-12 shotgun dates from the 1980's vintage designs of Maxwell Atchisson 2...broadly based on principles employed in Atchisson shotguns.3

USAS-12 ... uses a gas system located above the barrel, with more or less conventional rotating bolt locking. The interesting feature, borrowed from Atchisson designs, is the long bolt overtravel, which results in relatively low peak recoil and low rate of fire ... 4

I don't know if you've seen a stripped AA-12, but it you have, you can't miss the long recoil spring. If you look at a stripped USAS-12 you'll see the same system; a long recoil spring used in the same manner for the same purpose.
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f159/unnamed-source/USAS-12withKit.jpg

Now, again how does the AA-12 have superior recoil dampening qualities compared to the USAS-12?

The AA-12 is superior... in that it is simpler, lighter and less expensive to manufacture. Aside from that any superiority of the arm itself is debatable.

1 wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atchisson_Assault_Shotgun)
2 wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daewoo_USAS-12)
3 ibid
4 WorldGuns.ru (http://world.guns.ru)

Double Naught Spy
October 1, 2009, 06:06 AM
Now, again how does the AA-12 have superior recoil dampening qualities compared to the USAS-12?
Dude, I already said that if you can show that they have the same recoil system then great, but just asked for documentation of it. I am willing to concede the point with a little proof, but you keep presenting very limited and USAS-12 biased insights without corresponding AA12 insights.

The pic of the USAS-12 is pretty, but not comparative. Wiki is fine, but very limited in actual information. It just says the USAS-12 was developed from the AA12 (actually, from the early version), but not that they have the exact same mechanics as you claim. Your last link didn't work at all.

4thPointofContact
October 1, 2009, 12:06 PM
The pic of the USAS-12 is pretty, but not comparative.
As in most debates, I provide the facts for my side of the equation, I thought you would be the one to prove the facts for the other half. To someone who's familiar with the AA-12, such as yourself, I thought the similarity would be immediately obvious.

Wiki is fine, but very limited in actual information. Unless you are claiming that the USAS-12 was developed from the early version of the Atchisson Assault shotgun, which then was completely redesigned and went on to use a completely different system in the AA-12, I fail to follow your logic. Most people would see that a comparison was made between the two to establish commonality not difference, as no differences were mentioned.


The AA12 has the constant recoil reduction system that keeps the bolt from bottoming out, all but eliminating felt recoil

It's been pointed out by two people who actually own USAS-12's that the USAS employs the same method. How "exactly the same" do you want?
Must both employ the same gauge of steel for the coils?
Must both use the same number of coils in the springs?
Must the length of both springs be the same length, is 1/2" difference significant enough to not be "exactly the same"?

Since you have watched videos and read the reviews, would you tell us how they differ?
I only have first-hand experience with the one, so I would be quite curious.

My apologies if I sound confrontational, but you made a statement that you have yet to provide any citation for and have yet to even attempt to back up.

Skans
October 1, 2009, 01:31 PM
Hey Skans...you know what really bugs me? There's just enough difference where the pistol grip attaches to the receiver that using a Magpul MIAD grip is a no-go, and the folding trigger guard is just a tad longer than an AR's so you can't put a Magpul trigger guard can't be used either. I guess no one was looking 10 years into the future back in the 20th century.

I really do love the USAS-12 - reliable and fun as heck to shoot. What bugs me is that they could have, but didn't design it to be able to use a registered DIAS or lightning link. I could have afforded one of those things many years ago and probably would have bought one for it. Looks like an AR15 lower.....but it's not.:(