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mwar410
September 19, 2009, 04:52 PM
what do you shoot at a appleseed clinic? I was told that the ideal gun is a 10/22, what else will work?

comn-cents
September 19, 2009, 05:54 PM
I've seen a few threads on here about them. Try a search.

mwar410
September 20, 2009, 11:47 AM
that search is a funny thing, this time it worked. thanks

Ahshucks
October 20, 2009, 04:02 AM
Saturday isn't as much shooting, a lot more training and history presentations. Sunday gets serious shooting skills. I used my 10/22 the whole weekend as did the majority. I did see a few military weapons and 223s.

Smokey Joe
October 20, 2009, 02:53 PM
means shoot what you got. Whatever rifle you own will work. It's good if you already know well how to handle and shoot the rifle.

Now, that said, the ideal rifle for an Appleseed is an autoloader with a removable 5-round (at least) magazine, and a recoil you can easily stand. It needs to be at least sorta accurate--An SKS or an AK probably won't fill the bill.

The most common autoloading .22 LR is probably the Ruger 10-22, so that's what a lot of people bring. Centerfire rifles work fine, too.

You do A LOT of shooting over the 2 days, so your level of recoil tolerance is definitely a factor.

I did an Appleseed myself (and earned my Rifleman) with a bolt-action .243 with a blind box magazine. Needless to say, the rapid-fire events later in the program were a waste of time for me.

Nevertheless I had a great time, as I expect you will too.

mwar410
October 21, 2009, 07:20 PM
shot the appleseed event this past weekend. The instructors looked at my win. model 75 and said few had shot rifleman with a bolt. qualified after lunch on sat. in the rapid fire targets. 8 mags, and alot of npoa's but no problem. it was a fun weekend.

SamD
October 25, 2009, 09:49 PM
Actually a lot of people have shot "Rifleman" with a bolt.
The AQT was designed for the M1903 rifle.

Sam

bcarver
October 25, 2009, 10:34 PM
that is some feat. We had a 17 year old do that with a mosin bolt.

azredhawk44
October 26, 2009, 11:01 AM
Highest score I've personally seen is a 242, with a bolt action CZ .22.

Second highest is a 241 with a Ruger 10/22 that was SERIOUSLY tricked out with bull barrel and laminate stock with cheek rest.

Any gun is good, but here's guidelines:

-Have a sling that doesn't have a lot of stretch to it. Cotton USGI or leather M1907 style are preferred.

-Have sights or a scope that are scientifically adjustable. Stock ruger 10/22 sights are not scientifically adjustable.

-Have at least 3 10rd magazines. One might get damaged or be unreliable.

-Try to stay away from tube-fed systems if you can.

T. O'Heir
November 7, 2009, 11:25 PM
Any rifle, any sight. No bipods. Appleseed is about shooting better, not the rifle used.
Go here. http://www.appleseedinfo.org/as_faq.htm
Use a .22 and take a brick of the ammo your rifle shoots best. Less expensive shooting.

arpjoe
November 9, 2009, 07:48 PM
Appleseed Shoots are two days if you can do it. But if you can only do one day then try it Saturday if you have never been to an Appleseed Shoot. Saturday is when most of the instruction on rifle marksmanship is taught. Need to learn the steady hold factors of the positions, six steps of firing the shoot, Natural Point of Aim, etc.

It is like drinking water from a fire hose but you will learn the fundamentals of shooting a rifle. The Appleseed instructors will also provide something you can not do for yourself, observe and coach you as you fire your rifle, provide shot group analysis of your targets to focus on causes of large groups to shrink the group size.

Sunday is a review and some drills but most of the time and focus is on shooting Army Qualification Targets with the goal of shooting expert at >=210 of 250. The instuctors would not be able to take Sunday-only shooters and provide the time needed to bring them up to speed for shooting good AQTs if they have never been to the Saturday session.

A/C Guy
December 4, 2009, 08:44 PM
I shot my CM-2, Russian made single shot .22, last year and fell 4 points short of my Rifleman badge, but I still had 5 unfired rounds at the end of the 60 seconds. If I could have loaded faster, ......

Appleseed Shoots are meant to be "run what you brung" events; just like the Sat night races. Take any rifle you like and have fun. If you decide to "get serious" later. you can always buy another rifle and trick it.

aarondhgraham
December 14, 2009, 05:43 PM
I have three .22 rifles:

H&R Sportster - single shot break open action
Henry Accu-Bolt - single shot bolt action
Mossberg 702 Plinkster - 10 shot semiauto magazine.

Which rifle would you gentlemen recommend for an Appleseed weekend?

I would take the Henry but I just read about a rapid fire section of shooting,,,
I would probably be faster with the H&R that the bolt action.

I prefer the simplicity and laid-back manner of single-shot rifles,,,
But I don't want to miss qualifying due to slow reloading.

Thanks,,,

Aarond H. Graham

s002cjs
December 29, 2009, 04:05 PM
Personally, I'd start with the 702 (and a spare magazine or two). Once you get a feel for things, you could always change over to something else, but with the numerous reloads necessary, the 702 would probably let you focus more on consistent shooting rather than constant loading.

Tamara
January 1, 2010, 12:50 PM
I shot the same iron-sighted AR carbine that stays loaded in the house.

Don't tell me we already have gamers and an equipment race in Appleseed... :rolleyes:

Smokey Joe
January 2, 2010, 01:53 PM
Tamara--you said,Don't tell me we already have gamers and an equipment race in Appleseed..Gee whiz, I hope not!! Appleseed is about using YOUR rifle well. That said, however, there are rifles that won't work as well as other rifles @ an Appleseed: a single-shot, open-sighted .22 comes to mind, as does an SKS or an AK. The first just doesn't fire fast enough for the rapid-fire events, and all 3 of these examples are too inaccurate.

At the Appleseed I attended, there was an example of each of the above--2 SKS's, for that matter. None of the shooters using these guns got out of the "beginner" classes to try the AQT. Maybe it was the shooters, not the rifles--But IMHO, those particular rifles sure didn't help those particular shooters to do their best!

The Minutemen which Appleseed coaches modern shooters to emulate, were nothing if not accurate, with their Pennsylvania long rifles. The 1903 Springfield, for which the AQT was designed, reloads rapidly from stripper clips.

So, to benefit most from an Appleseed, while it's "shoot what you got," there are rifles which limit your participation and your learning. There are other rifles--a great variety of 'em--with which you can increase your shooting skill, earn a Rifleman patch (no mean feat, that) and have a lot of fun for a weekend doing both.

I wouldn't encourage anybody contemplating doing their first Appleseed, to get themselves a "race gun" specifically designed for the event. Please see my entry above regarding my own "shoot what you brung" experience.

NRAhab
January 3, 2010, 12:42 PM
My New Year's resolution is to actually shoot an Appleseed this year. I have heard so many mixed reviews from people about it, which run the gamut of "HOLY SMOKES APPLESEED IS THE BEST THING EVAR" to "It's great if you want to be a high power rifle shooter" all the way down to "it's a waste of time, unless you're into being preached at about 'minutemen'."

So I figured I might as well sack up and go shoot one myself. Because I'm cheap, I'm going to shoot it with an S&W MP-22 that's set up like my HD gun.

bcarver
January 4, 2010, 01:36 AM
I attended the Saturday shoot. It was historicaly interesting. It was a nice day for a picnic. It was some basic shooting drills.

I learned a lot about want it need for the next time.

10 round .22 that does not extend below rifle sighted in at 25 yards to 25 meters. Extended magazine raise the rifle during prone fire.

GE-Minigun
January 4, 2010, 10:57 AM
On a side note…scopes are mentioned…how would a red dot work? I ask because I plan on doing an Appleseed this year and as mentioned here, the gun to use seems to be the 10/22…well mine has a red dot on it. Thanks for the help.

azredhawk44
January 4, 2010, 01:16 PM
Don't tell me we already have gamers and an equipment race in Appleseed...

The temptation is there. I've seen some .22's geared out expressly for "appleseeding" if the phrase may be used.

However, there's no competition, and no amount of gear will "buy" you a rifleman's patch. It just can't be done, since you don't get the patch if you shoot off a bench or bipod. You have to be a rifleman to earn the patch, no if's ands or buts about it.

On a side note…scopes are mentioned…how would a red dot work? I ask because I plan on doing an Appleseed this year and as mentioned here, the gun to use seems to be the 10/22…well mine has a red dot on it. Thanks for the help.

Red dots are cool. You'll probably want your red dot to cover less than 4MOA though. I have a red dot on my Camp 45 and it is a 3 minute dot. It just barely fits inside of the 4MOA targets we use.

If you had a red dot that was more than 4MOA you could get tricky and use a 6 o'clock hold or a half-COM hold, sighting in so that your point of impact is just on the crest of the top of the dot instead of the center of it. Improvise, adapt, overcome.:p

GE-Minigun
January 4, 2010, 01:41 PM
Thanks for the reply...was wondering if I should leave it as is or swap out for a 4x scope. Again, thanks for the reply.

Tamara
January 4, 2010, 05:39 PM
However, there's no competition, and no amount of gear will "buy" you a rifleman's patch. It just can't be done, since you don't get the patch if you shoot off a bench or bipod. You have to be a rifleman to earn the patch, no if's ands or buts about it.

No, but a Rifleman's patch would be a lot easier to earn with an optically-sighted 10/22 w/shooting sling than, say, an iron-sighted AR carbine sans sling. :o

Smokey Joe
January 4, 2010, 05:56 PM
Tamara--you said:but a Rifleman's patch would be a lot easier to earnIMHO, "EARN" is the operative word here, and the correct one. There are those who "just know" how to shoot well. There are those who will NEVER shoot well, for a variety of reasons. Between these 2 groups there is a majority, who can LEARN to shoot well, and EARN their Rifleman Patch. As with any learning situation, having good tools to learn with facilitates matters, and lets you work on how to do the basic process, rather than first having to overcome the tools' shortcomings.

That's why, for example, the Appleseed website advises you to come with a rifle equipped with a G. I. sling or equivalent--it's a learning tool. Bringing a sling for your rifle isn't "gaming" the Appleseed experience. Neither is bringing an adjustable-peep-sighted, or 'scope-sighted rifle--At 25 yd the 'scope is just another form of adjustable sight.

azredhawk44
January 4, 2010, 07:39 PM
No, but a Rifleman's patch would be a lot easier to earn with an optically-sighted 10/22 w/shooting sling than, say, an iron-sighted AR carbine sans sling.

I shoot the same scores on an AQT whether with my 4x magnified Marlin 795, or my iron-sighted M14.

When you get off the bench and learn to shoot using your body as the support instrument for the rifle, scope/sights don't matter until you're so far away that you can no longer see the target. All a scope does, is allow you to fuss the shot and I've actually had shooters shoot worse with scopes than with irons due to the fussing.

I've met plenty of riflemen with AR carbine M4geries on the line.

Now, sans sling? That's just silly.:p Every Rifleman has a sling!:D Next, you'll be talking about "mexican" carry of a Glock as a sensible thing, too!;)

Wrothgar
January 5, 2010, 12:00 PM
So wait, SKS's suck? Even Norinco's? That's news to me, I love mine.


I've got the Winchester Wildcat .22 Bolt action with the 15 round mags; the stock sites SUCK, they shoot high, is there any way to adjust them? I'd rather take something and use iron sights, but not if they are terrible sights. Every other gun I have has iron sights, but ammo is expensive for them... except the SKS.

azredhawk44
January 5, 2010, 01:20 PM
So wait, SKS's suck? Even Norinco's? That's news to me, I love mine.

They're reliable, I'll give them that. I'd call them a poor man's Garand, but assembled with Combloc attention to detail that makes them much less accurate and consistent than the Garand.

I've had an experienced High Power shooter come out to an Appleseed and run an SKS. He never broke a Rifleman score with it. Came close... but couldn't quite do it. He still used the rifle as a learning tool and I have no doubt that he improved from the course and will be able to apply the skills to his M1 and see marked improvement. It's just what he had ammo for.

There ARE folks who have shot Rifleman with an SKS, but just barely. Those guys, when shifting to an AR, M1 Garand, M14, or reasonably tuned .22 (10/22 or 795 that has a sling and quality sights), will add another 20 points to the total AQT score.

I even remember one of the instructors in Appleseed, back east, decided to push an SKS to its limits and did some 700 yard shooting with it. The bullets were tumbling at that point and hitting the paper sideways. But, he was able to hit to that point.

I don't follow SKS variants since I've personally chosen American rifles to fill my safe (aside from a Mosin 91/30), so I don't know how Norks compare to Yugos or other models.

Bottom line is, run what ya brung and have ammo for. You'll still learn the skills, if you show up with an SKS that's been dragged behind a gulag tractor, or a matched-out AR.

jeremiyah
September 20, 2010, 05:06 PM
Marlin 795
I just found out that the Marlin 795, is a preferred gun by some Appleseed instructors over the Ruger 10-22. Either gun is great, lots more options and accessories for the Ruger. http://appleseedinfo.org/
My son, Isaac, said that the Ruger is the "AR" of 22s -lots of options, more expensive, and the Marlin is the "SKS", cheaper with maybe, fewer options.
The difference? Ruger is 220 to 250, and it needs some work to make it really usable for Appleseed. The Marlin is 149 bucks at Bass Pro, we hear, sometimes on sale for $99.
I do not know yet about modifications, needed.
My oldest son custom designed a Sling which works both ways; hasty or loop with a buckle QD to take the loop sling off the arm quickly between shooting times.
Ian qualified twice Saturday, shooting a 225, and a 221, out of 250 possible, and so began as an instructor on Sunday; very cool.

For BOTH guns you can get military style peep sights for front and back, with adjustable windage and elevation. These increase accuracy immensely, giving almost 30 to 40% longer sight radius, and improving the target sight picture as well. Tech Sights
http://www.tech-sights.com/


"With the Tech-Sights Marlin Model 60 aperture sights I feel like I am shooting a whole new rifle. With these sights I can see and hit small targets at the distances I knew my Marlin was capable of reaching. Shooting offhand at 25 yards I have progressed from 6-8” groups to 1” groups. The difference is like putting on your first pair of glasses and realizing once again that trees have individual leaves.
M.B. Nashville, TN"


"About a year or so ago I purchased my first set of Tech-Sights for my Ruger 10/22. The installation is a breeze and the quality of the hardware is first class. I get together with my shooting buddies on the weekends and we compete against each other for bragging rights. When I showed up with my 10/22 without the scope they thought there was no way I was going to be able to compete with them at a 100 yard setup. Needless to say I proved them wrong! All 4 of them had scopes on their rifles and shot for shot not one of them could match the accuracy with my Tech-Sight setup. No more trash talking about me and my open sights!"

One very Happy Customer,
Jay in Fuquay-Varina, NC

"I didn't have much time because the deer was running, but I was able to shoot quickly because the sight makes it easy to find your target. I think peep sights are way better than scopes, especially when the target is moving."
Erik N., New Richmond, Wisconsin


Just so you know, Tech Sights makes them for the following guns, which tells you these guns are good models for this kind of shooting. I will list them in order of overall preference for Appleseed;

Ruger 10/22 Sights

Marlin 795 Sights

Mossberg 702 Sights




CZ 452 Sights (BOLT action)


.30 caliber;

SKS Sights

AK Sights


Jerry

4bfox
September 20, 2010, 08:52 PM
By far, the Ruger 10/22 is the predominate rifle at Appleseed shoots. BUT, when you start shooting LOTS of rounds through them, things start happening....like stovepipes, etc. What I ended up doing on mine was a Volquartsen extractor, extended mag release, and started dinking with the trigger group to improve it. After going through all that, what I would do NOW is buy the Hornet (or similar) assembly and replace the whole shebang: http://www.hornetproducts.com/ViewProduct.asp?ModelNumber=SRTR (I don't own stock in Hornet, etc....just spent a lot of time dinking with this, and the whole unit is much easier!) So get a Volq. extractor and the trigger group, and you're done. EXCEPT if you have stock Ruger sights, which suck....as mentioned above, go with Tech Sights...they're great.

OR go with the Marlin....I've seen good things with them. Not a lot of problems...don't know if there's an aftermarket extractor for it or not...this seems to solve most of the stovepiping issues on all .22 rifles.

OR go with my personal favorite, the Remington 597...only thing it needs is the Volquartsen extractor. Already has a decent trigger pull, good mag release.

On any .22 rifles, you'll need AT LEAST 2 mags, preferably 4....in case you're in an area that does RFAQTs (rapid-fire AQT). We've just started doing them occasionally in Kansas....more predominate up north.

Oh...on the SKS. My son shoots mine with Tech Sights and loves it. Not a bad round, just doesn't have the "umph" that a .30-06 does at extended range.

kraigwy
September 20, 2010, 09:06 PM
There are those who will NEVER shoot well, for a variety of reasons.

I don't believe that.

The first thing they tell you at the CMP GSM Master Coach's Clinic is:

THERE ARE NO HOPELESS STUDENTS OR LOST CAUSES

In my years of coaching NG Rifle & Pistol teams, as a LE firearms instructor, and running HP and Vintage Rifle Clinics I've found the above statement to be true.

Originally Posted by Tamara
Don't tell me we already have gamers and an equipment race in Appleseed...

Thankfully that isn't the case with CMP GSM matches, they are big on - AS ISSUED MEANS AS ISSUED.

Appleseed is a good program, but I would like to see them push more toward normal carry or hunting rifles and not drift to match shooting. The As Issued Concept, puts everyone on the same playing field, instead of going the route of ISU shooting which requires a $2000 rifle and $1500 worth of other clothing.

I don't want to see shooting sports turn into a rich man's sport. I like the ideal of a $100 dollar rifle, shooting surplus ammo, on the winners' board.

gotigers
September 21, 2010, 07:25 AM
Watch out buying Marlin 795's. At the moment 795's have a serious issue with the receiver. The dovetail is canted and some barres are not mounted straight. I bought on in late August. It shot great, but when i put tech sights on it, the sights leaned real bad to the right. I could not zero the sights. Windage was all the way to the left. Read rimfirecentral.com threads about it. Everyone is having this issue with rifles built in 2009 or this year. My serial number started with 914. Marlin replaced the rifle, but i sold the new one. To much BS for a $125 rifle. IF you dont plan on mounting sights on the dovetail, it will be fine.

shooterer
September 21, 2010, 10:34 AM
Ok, here is my take on building LRTs

.22lr are nice for plinking and practicing, but appleseed is about learning to shoot in defense of your county and you will not be doing that with rim fire.

Hand your existing .22lr to a junior and pick up your center-fire rifle and start shooting at real distances. Spend the money you were going to spend on a LRT on ammunition or reloading equipment for your big boy gun.

You will be amazed at how much more you will get out of each trigger pull and how much you will think about about what you have been taught before you squeeze the trigger when each shot costs 5 times as much as a .22lr

4bfox
September 22, 2010, 10:56 PM
A lot of shooters at our Appleseeds (Kansas) shoot rimfire on Saturday, and centerfire on Sunday....

We're about to get a KD (known distance) range going, where we'll be able to shoot to at least 500 yards, possibly to 1000. I've never shot over 300 yards, so I'm looking forward to this!

You're right about centerfire ammo, though....when I'm shooting my Garand, there is a LOT more concentration taking place than when shooting a .22...

Giovanni
October 6, 2010, 06:18 PM
The Ruger 10 22 is the preferred rifle at Appleseed. BUT I had to spend some serious money on mine to finally get it to shoot reliably and to have decent groups. I bought the carbine at Wally World for about $250.00. First, the trigger is terrible and I bought a hornet trigger group to fix that. I was having FTF and a few ejection problems. Ended up buying a Kid bolt with pinned firing pin and upgraded extractor. Zero mechanical problems now. The last shoot at Appleseed I shot in the 190’s my groups were awful with some flyers added in. I thought my eyesight was going south. I pulled out my Marlin 60 with tech sights and shot practically a one hold 14 shot group (bagged up at the range). Next, I bought a Weaver Classic Rimfire 3X9 AO scope $200 + for the ruger. The rifle still wasn’t grouping well—still some flyers. FINALLY a new Hogue overmolded stock. The rifle now shoots about a 1.5 moa, the old stock was the culprit. The bottom line about $700 (including the scope and carbine) spent with no new barrel to get this rifle shooting well.
If I had it to do all over again I would personally go a different route with a Marlin 795. I have a brick of Wolf target match ready for the next Appleseed. The ruger likes that one.
John

ACP230
October 6, 2010, 09:23 PM
I have shot several rifles at Appleseed shoots.

At the first one I used my M1A for the first 13 shots. Then I switched to a Winchester 52 with standard peep sights. I found it difficult to see the one-inch black squares used to zero on Saturday. My eyes are considerably older than when I shot the 52 a lot. It had the advantage of easily taking a cotton Garand sling because the sling swivels were wide enough for one.

Next I used a Remingtion 541-T HB with a 4-16 power scope. I did somewhat better with the scope but had difficulties making my shots in the time limits. Another mag for the Remington would have helped a lot.

The most recent shoot I used my Ruger 10/22. It's been messed with to the tune of a trigger job, a heavy barrel, a Fajen red, white and blue laminated stock, and a 3.5-10 power scope. I had a pile of mags, of variou capacities, for the 10/22 and brought most of them along. Did not earn the rifleman patch but got closer with the 10/22. No problem with time limits. Shot low a lot and didn't notice it in time to correct the problem.

Have occasionally given some thought to using an M1 Carbine at a shoot. Sights are good and the carbine is accurate enough for 25 meter shooting. Will probably stick with the 10/22 though.