Dumb statements about Browning Citori

[Crunchy Frog]

I almost posted this as a reply to a thread about the dumbest things you've heard said in a gun store, but since it is shotgun-specific I thought I would vent here.

Over the years I have heard several stupid things said about the Browning Citori O/U. Not sure what it is about this gun that seems to bring out the clowns, but I can't think of another single gun that has bred more dumb statements (although a .45 cal. 1911 may run second place).

First, I don't know why someone with enough money to buy a Citori can't figure out how to pronounce it, but I have heard several people refer to it as a Browning "Century".

The next one is sort of an little quirk. When people discuss Browning shotguns, particularly older models like the A-5, they often refer to the shotgun as a "Belgium Browning". Yes I know, they were made in Belgium, and apparently some people think that is prestigious (I don't know of anything else good made in Belgium except for waffles). My question is about grammar. One should say "Belgian Browning", n'est-ce pas? I am going to shut up about that and open a bottle of France wine.

Finally, I have heard a fair share of misstatements and lies about the Citori. It is a perfectly fine shotgun in its own right without owners and sellers making up stuff. The other day I was in a small gun store (where one might expect to encounter a knowledgeable owner) looking for a skeet gun. The guy pointed out a Citori that he had "on sale" (still way overpriced) and told me it was the only way to go. After all, "I've had one for years that was made in Belgium, before they started making them in China." What a load.

I think the Citori is a fine product, I just can't figure out why they seem to generate such silly statements.

[RNB65]

Lazy and/or stupid come to mind.

The Belgian Brownings are highly valued because FN is recognized as one of the great gun manufacturers of the world and that's the company that John Moses Browning personally selected to build his guns.

Of course, Miroku is also a pretty darn good gunmaker as well. It's just that "Made in Belgium" sounds like old-world craftsmanship while "Made in Japan" sounds like assembly line craftsmanship.

I'm plenty happy with my Made in Japan Browning 425. 15 years and many thousands of rounds on the sporting clay range without nary a hiccup.

[Dave McC]

As near as I can tell, the ones made in Japan are as good in finish and tolerances as the Belgians. Wood may be slightly better on the Euro guns, but it's close.

As for how to pronounce "Citori", just be glad they don't call it a "Shottie"

That's my tooth grinder....

[oneounceload]

"Shottie", "Remmy", "Browny", "Mossy"........:barf:

IMO, what separates the Belgian from the Japanese Brownings are the barrels.....the Belgian ones seem to ring like a bell, have fine balance, and excellent fixed chokes that pattern very well and true to constriction

[mes228]

I've had shotguns that cost 10 times as much as a Citori. I've had shotguns I swore handled quite a bit better. But I've never had as deadly a shotgun on game as the 16 gauge Citori line. I've probably owned 7-8, pretty much every model, and they are killers. Foolish me I've sold them all off. I shoot them better on game than any shotgun I've owned. If anyone reading this has a 16 ga. Citori of any age, or condition, or model, they are selling. Please PM or email me at mes228@msn.com I have cash, also have several long guns I'd trade.

[BigJimP]

I only have 9 Browning Citori's in the safe currently ( all Miroku guns ..) 6 in 12ga, 1 20ga, 1 28ga, 1 .410 .... / I'm feeling under-gunned ..... ( but there are a few BPS pumps, a semi-auto ....

and only 7 1911's ) ...

so I guess I have the "misunderstood line of guns" covered .....
----------------

a Browning isn't the best Skeet gun out there ... I'll reserve that for a Kolar or Krieghoff, with a 2nd carrier barrel, and a full set of Briley or Kolar tubes for the sub-gagues.... and I count 27 models in Brownings Citori lineup of guns these days .... but the Citori XS Skeet, with adj comb, is a very good gun for the money. But it is too bad that more gun shops don't really understand the complete line of Citori's / how they are best utilized ...so they can really help their customers ( but then, that's why we have a forum too )...

[johnbt]

"Yes I know, they were made in Belgium, and apparently some people think that is prestigious (I don't know of anything else good made in Belgium except for waffles)."

Sounds like a personal problem and certainly a lack of research on your part.

John

[.45 COLT]

(I don't know of anything else good made in Belgium except for waffles)."

Sounds like a personal problem and certainly a lack of research on your part.

John
It has nothing to do with shotguns, and very little with waffles, but every time I see something about Belgian superiority (or inferiority), http://zapatopi.net/belgium/?woo comes to mind. :D

DC

[impalacustom]

45 Colt and Crunchy Frog,
I happen to think my Belgium made Browning is superior to my Japanese made Browning. I enjoy both of them though.

People also used to think things stamped Made in the U.S.A. were superior but aparently not anymore. I still believe they are though.

[Scorch]

If I were to comment on the Belgian-made Citori the guy in the gun shop was talking about, it would probably hurt his feelings. Browning Citoris are made in Japan, and have always been made in Japan. The Belgian O/U shotgun was called the Superposed. They are essentially the same design except for ejector cocking mechanism, the forearm metal, and forearm latch. Production was switched to Japan in the early 1970s due to the cost of labor in Europe. While I have never owned a Superposed, I own Citoris, and I like them a lot.

As far as other Belgian-made Browning shotguns, the A-5 from Belgium and the Japanese A-5 compare very nicely. The Japanese A-5 has a bit better metal fitting but is slightly heavier due to the barrel proportions where the removable choke screws in. The Japanese A-5s also have too much wood in the stocks, making them handle like a club. Not to knock Japanese manufacturing, they don't own and shoot firearms, how were they supposed to know?

Oh, by the way, it's pronounced "sit O ree", and it's a made-up word. Supposedly, the VP of Marketing for Browning was sitting in a "meeting" with the Japanese VPs trying to decide what to call the gun to differentiate it from the Superposed, and was writing sounds on his cocktail napkin when he came up with the word (another three-beer idea).

[Crunchy Frog]

OP here (no, not the kid from Mayberry). Post was tongue in cheek but still managed to offend so here are the apologies du jour.

Sorry to all our friends in Belgium. I'm sure you produce many quality, um.. non-waffly stuff. No offense intended. Hey, the HQ of the World Court makes it home in Belgium. Although I have always wondered why the city rates an article. It's called "the Hague". In the States we don't have "the Denver"; the UK does not boast "the London". Then again there is "La Paz" so perhaps it's not so unusual.

Big "sorry" to owners of Belgian made Browning products. Rightful pride in Old World craftmanship is yours. I once owned a Hi-Power that (I think) was stamped "made in Belgium". Does that make amends? OK, probably not.

Big thanks, though, to Scorch for providing the origin of the monkier "Citori". That's a good story.

[oneounceload]

The Hague is in The Netherlands, not Belgium....;)

[johnbt]

See, they really are two different countries.

http://www.transitionsabroad.com/images/maps/netherlands_belgium.jpg

And a Citori is no Superposed. And I like the rib on the Superposed better, too.

[oneounceload]

I like the Belgian barrels - much thinner, swing great, ring like a bell - they are well-struck and well regulated. (The Citoris are also well-regulated). Being fixed chokes, Belgian barrels can be more readily made thinner which means they swing FAST.....

[HellBillySuperstar]

Im guessing it goes Citori like "Sitory" ??

I don't know, and I don't want to be that guy that is at the gun store making a fool of himself...

[cobra81]

I've had a Citori Lightning Feather 12-gauge for several years, and it is a great handling and shooting gun.

Funniest thing I ever heard was an older friend of mine who was in the market for a new shotgun remarked one day in all seriousness,
"I'd like to have me one of them "Browning Clitoris". I didn't have the heart to straighten him out; still not sure he ever figured out the difference...:eek:

[rpmx]

newbie here, and I know nothing about a Browning Citori, other than how to pronounce it, so I may be ahead of a few.:D

My question is this:

A guy has a 12 guage Browning Citori (Belgium made) that he is thinking about selling and threw out $7 to $800.

I have not seen the gun yet, says its in good shape.

With my limited knowledge of this gun, could I assume it is a fixed choke gun?

Probably a mod/Full.

Barrel length would possibly be 28, maybe 30? is that possible.

What about chambering, would this be a 2 3/4 only, or did they standardly come with a 3 inch chamber?

I'm thinking about rounding up the cash.
What say you?

Thanks,
R

[oneounceload]

I'm thinking that if it is great shape with NO salt wood, then that would be a good price, and yes they would be fixed chokes - that does NOT mean you can't have the chokes opened a notch or two if M/F is what they are and that is too tight.

Post pics when you get it

[rpmx]

I see some mention of "salt wood" in some sales info online. Can someone explain what I am to be looking for?

Does anyone know if it would be chambered for 3" or not?

TIA
R

[Waterengineer]

A discussion of "salt wood"

http://www.shotgunreport.com/TechTech/TechnoidArchive/8-Dec-02.html

[oneounceload]

If it is chambered for 3 inch shells, it will say so on the barrel

[Skans]

The problem with the Citori being made in Japan is that Japan doesn't have a history of turning out some of the world's best guns. Also, Japan is a very anti-gun society, Belgium has earned a reputation for fine old-world craftsmanship with regard to firearms. So has Italy. Russian companies have been making guns and shotguns for years - but they don't have a reputation of making anything top quality.

The bottom line is that, while Citori makes a decent shotgun, I don't feel that there is anything all that special about them that would cause me to pay top dollar for one. If I can't get one for a deep discount, I'd prefer to have something else like a Beretta. Why would I want to support Japan's firearms industry when they aren't offering me something truly outstanding - either in price or in quality?

[Scorch]

Japan doesn't have a history of turning out some of the world's best guns.It doesn't??? Well, let me name a few: Weatherby, Winchester, Browning, Nikko, Howa . . . need I go on? Besides, they just make the Citori to someone else's specification and design.

Japan is a very anti-gun societyAgreed. But what does that have to do with the quality of their steel and machine tools industry?

Belgium has earned a reputation for fine old-world craftsmanship with regard to firearms. So has Italy.Yes, and yet both nations have turned out some of the most poorly-made firearms ever seen.

The bottom line is that, while Citori makes a decent shotgun, I don't feel that there is anything all that special about them that would cause me to pay top dollar for one.Citori does not make a shotgun, it is a shotgun, a model of over/under shotgun, to be exact. And the price asked for a Citori is not top dollar, it is actually a very reasonable price when you consider the amount of time and labor it takes to make an O/U shotgun. If you want top dollar, buy a Merkel or a Perazzi. They will set you back several times the cost of a Citori. A Beretta that costs less than a Citori will shoots loose within a few thousand rounds, go back and look at the Citori at that time.

I see some mention of "salt wood" in some sales info online. Can someone explain what I am to be looking for?"Salt wood" is wood that has been dried by applying salt to the outside of the wood during drying and curing to accelerate the process. After WWII, the large supplies of walnut had been used up (the weapons industries had gobbled up everything), and curing the wood takes many years, so people tried to figure out how to make walnut lumber quickly. Salt curing worked well for furniture wood, so why not firearms stocks? FN guns made after 1960 used walnut that had been cured using salt, and these guns were notorious for rusting below the stock line. Japanese Brownings use aged walnut from the US, and "salt wood" should not be an issue.

[BigJimP]

You should buy what you want... but I'll stack a Japanese ( Miroku ) made Browing up against any Beretta made...shell for shell, fit, finish, etc ...

I primarily buy Browning because the guns fit me / and typically the Beretta does not. Is there a difference in the 2 mfg's / sure .... is it significant, no. Personally, I think the Citori line of guns from Browning is a stronger gun than most of the line of guns offered by Beretta - but that can be debated.

The gun the OP is discussing - with fixed chokes - in my area is worth somwhere between $ 650 - $ 750 probably in good condition.

My primary Brownings for hunting, Skeet and Sporting clays ...
http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=52022&stc=1&d=1253816818
One in 12ga, one in 20ga, one in 28ga and one in .410 - all Browning Citor XS-Skeet models with 30" barrels ...

My primary Trap guns
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=43087&d=1235590418
Browning XT-Trap models 32" barrels / one with upgraded wood, Gracoil on it.

They're not real fancy guns / but all 6 of them have many thousands of shells thru them - and they'll all last well into 2 more generations of shooters in my family when I'm ready to give them up.

[Skans]

Are you telling me that a Japanese Citori retains its resale value on the used market as well as a Beretta? We're not talking high end shotguns here, just the garden variety that most people tend to buy. Why is it that most rentals tend to be Beretta White Onyxes (at least from my observation) if these guns shake apart after a couple thousand rounds?

The bottom line is just tell me why I'd consider a New Japanese Citori over a New Beretta in the same general price range (+/- $400, because if I'm spending $2,000+ on a shotgun, I'm not going to worry too much about price differences of a couple hundred dollars). Please, convince me.

[BigJimP]

Yes, I'm telling you the used Browning Citori lineup of guns retains its value as well, if not better, than Beretta in most areas of the country - especially in their entry level models - Browning Citori Lightning or Beretta white onyx. I think you'll see that especially as they get to 10 or 15 years old - but there isn't more than a few hundred dollars between them typically.

List price on Browning White Lightning is $ 2,029 / list price on Beretta is $ 1,975.

Why you're seeing more Beretta's than Browning's as used guns - who knows. They might have made the club a better deal ...

I didn't say a Beretta will fail after a few thousand shells - in my opinion, even though you are looking at entry level models, they've both 100,000 shell guns. But I will tell you that if the Browning fits you ( so it hits where you look ) then the Beretta will not probably fit you. They are different in the amount of drop at comb, heel, etc.

Buy the gun that fits you the best / not who made it - either a Beretta or a Browning Citori will hold up if you take care of it. But the Browning Japanese made Citori certainly is not an inferior gun to anything Beretta makes - on the entry level or the higher end of either mfg's lineup at $ 5,000 plus ...

[Scorch]

tell me why I'd consider a New Japanese Citori over a New Beretta in the same general price rangeSeveral reasons why I would consider a Citori over a Beretta:
* Berettas have no hinge pin, the hinge is in the side of the receiver. These thin areas wear faster than a sold steel hinge pin and cannot be rebuilt.
* Berettas have very small locking pins that fit into holes in the rear of the breechblock. Holes tend to wear oval over time, making lockup not as tight. Pins wear faster than a 1" wide solid steel lug.
* Berettas are lighter and thinner through the receiver. While this does make them handle nicely and swing faster, it also increses felt recoil and makes it easier to stop your swing. Either of these will eventually cause you to start missing.

None of this means Berettas are not a good gun, they're just not as strong as a Citori.

Why is it that most rentals tend to be Beretta White Onyxes (at least from my observation) if these guns shake apart after a couple thousand rounds?Rental guns are usually the cheapest good guns available. While there are cheaper O/U shotguns, they are not very good. And while there are better O/U shotguns available, they are not cheap. A few hundred dollars may not make much of a difference to you or me, multiply it times several dozen guns, and it adds up. While many club guns do get shot a lot, most do not. Serious shooters will buy their own shotguns, and many people bring their field guns for a pre-season warm-up session at the trap or skeet range.

Berettas are not a bad shotgun by any stretch of the imagination. They are just not as good as a Browning Citori.

[oneounceload]

Berettas are neither better nor worse than Brownings - just different. ALL guns have wear points and all will require servicing at some time. Both basic models of Beretta and Browning should be good for about 85,000 or so before you might need some attention to the lock up or springs. The stock dimensions tend to be different. Typically, if one fits you well, the other brand will not. Not a good or bad thing, just different

[Skans]

I did a little checking and found some good information on the Beretta Onyx:
__________________________________________________________

Mechanically, these models (Onyx and Whitewing) provide the same strength, reliability and durability as the more expensive engraved models (Berettas). The box-lock receivers are machined from solid-steel forgings. Conical locking lugs are located at the back of the mono-block, providing a strong lock up. The locking lugs are designed to "wear-in" to maintain a tight lock-up over the firing of thousands of rounds.

This tight fit can be maintained indefinitely. The opening lever is normally offset a bit to the right. When parts wear is such that the lever is centered, it's time to replace the hinge pins and locking lugs. Beretta currently charges less than $200 for the job, which essentially gives the shooter a new gun. Frankly this is of only passing concern to most shooters. Typically it takes 70,000 to 75,000 rounds before these parts need replacing. Some competitive shooters shoot this many rounds in a few years. For the average hunter who might shoot 20 boxes of ammunition annually, we're talking 140 to 150 years of service before the inexpensive update is required.

Beretta barrels are cold hammer-forged of high-grade steel. Because of the quality of the steel and the forging process, Beretta barrels can be thinner and therefore lighter than some competitive brands. Barrels are laser-fused to the mono-block and will never separate. Chrome-lined barrels and chambers make cleaning easy and help prevent plastic buildup and corrosion.
_________________________________________________________________
I don't know how the Citori is constructed, but it seems like the Berettas are made to be rebuilt, eventhough it may take 75,000 to need this, and last multiple lifetimes of hard use.

[BigJimP]

From a product review by Chuck Hawks ...

His opinion of the Browning Citori field guns:

All Citori actions are hand fitted and come standard with selective hammer ejectors and a single selective single trigger. Like the Superposed, the barrels of Citori shotguns pivot on a full-length hinge pin that can be replaced should it ever wear. The chambers are chrome-plated to resist wear and corrosion. The wood is carefully hand fitted to the metal.

Also like the Superposed, the barrels are locked closed by means of a traditional underlug and bolt. The locking bolt is tapered, as is the locking lug recess. This means that as wear occurs over the years the action stays tight.

The barrels are struck full length as with traditional high quality doubles. The barrels are fitted with Browning's Invector Plus choke tubes.

models are distinguished by their rounded semi-pistol grip buttstock and slender, rounded forend. The comb is fluted and the checkering pattern generous on both the grip and forend. To me, the Lighting is the definition of how an O/U shotgun should look.

The Citori swings a little smoother and kicks a little less than many similar O/U guns because it weighs a little more, which is a good thing. The Citori will break clays and kill birds with the best of them if it fits the shooter and the shooter knows how to get the job done. In summation I can only say that I regard the Browning Citori to be an excellent O/U shotgun and a good value.

My note - barrels are all chromed / today they are back bored / have extended forcing cones, etc on many models.

-------------------------
Its my opinion, the barrel to receiver connection on the Citori is stronger than the Beretta / and to me, since they are heavier its a plus - but in terms of a long term gun / good value for your money either a Beretta or a Browning Citori will give you a lot of gun for the money. Either gun can be rebuilt if necessary - but they're both 100,000 shell guns.

[10 Beers]

My brother in law has one and I asked him if it was Belgian or Jap and he had no idea. After breaking it down I finally found the "made in japan" hidden inside the works. They don't seem very proud of it. Has anybody ever seen it on the outside?

[johnbt]

The Citori has been made in Japan since it was introduced in 1973. I assumed it was common knowledge. Miroku makes great guns. Fwiw, Browning has never made their own guns in their own factory.

"Founded in 1893 and the largest of the three Japanese firearms makers (Howa and SKB are the other two), Miroku builds the lion's share of the 170,000 guns made in the country every year (guns are highly restricted in Japan, which exports almost every gun it makes)."

Berettas fit me better. Oh well.

John

[johnbt]

www.browning.com/customerservice/qna/detail.asp?ID=90

Question:
Where are Browning firearms manufactured?

Answer:

Browning firearms have been traditionally made in locations world-wide. John M. Browning's first rifle, the Single Shot, was made in Ogden, Utah. The next guns carrying the Browning name were made in Belgium. This continued for many decades. This was the result of John M. Browning's lasting relationship with Fabrique Nationale, in Herstal, Belgium. Most Browning guns were made in Belgium by F.N. until the mid '70s when some production was shifted to Miroku in Japan. Today's Browning firearms are made in either Belgium, Portugal, Japan or in the United States. With some exceptions this is the breakout:


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Browning Firearm Manufacturers


Belgium
Superposed


Belgium (assembled in Portugal)
Gold 12 and 20 ga. shotguns Silver shotgun, Maxus shotgun, Hi-Power Pistol, FN Pistols, BAR Mark II Safari Rifle, and BAR Shorttrac and Longtrac rifles.


Italy
The BDA 380 Autoloading pistol

Japan
Citori, Cynergy, BLR Lightweight, BLR Lightweight '81, A-Bolt II, X-Bolt, BT-99, BL-22 Rifle, Auto-22 Rifle, T-Bolt, BPS (all), and Gold 10 ga.

United States
Buck Mark Pistols and rifles




------------------------------------------------------------------------
The tradition of making Browning sporting firearms overseas was started with John M. Browning's Auto-5 semi-automatic shotgun design being produced by Fabrique Nationale in Belgium. Production on many of the models made in Belgium shifted to Miroku in Japan in the mid-70's due to significant cost increases in Belgium.


We at Browning consider ourselves an worldwide company. We are proud of our tradition of producing the world's best firearms at the worlds best factories -- where ever they be.

If your question still remains unanswered, please call our Consumer Department directly at: 800.333.3288 or 801.876.2711

[Scorch]

My brother in law has one and I asked him if it was Belgian or Jap and he had no idea. After breaking it down I finally found the "made in japan" hidden inside the works. They don't seem very proud of it. Has anybody ever seen it on the outside?Yes, it is stamped on the left side of the top barrel, right next to the Browning address and the gauge/chamber designation.

[LHB1]

Quote: "A guy has a 12 guage Browning Citori (Belgium made) that he is thinking about selling and threw out $7 to $800."

As others have posted, all Browning Citori shotguns are and have been made in Japan. The (previous model) Browning Superposed shotguns were made in Belgium. Try to find out whether your friend has a Citori (made in Japan) or a Superposed (made in Belgium).

[oneounceload]

My brother in law has one and I asked him if it was Belgian or Jap and he had no idea. After breaking it down I finally found the "made in japan" hidden inside the works. They don't seem very proud of it. Has anybody ever seen it on the outside?

All the time - Japanese Brownings are some of the best mass-produced low-end over-unders made today. BTW, it says Made in Japan right on top of the barrels for all to see.

Comparing Berettas to Brownings is like comparing apples to oranges - yes, they're both fruit, but not the same - their actions are different, their stock dimensions are different, their weights are different

[dgludwig]

The discussion regarding the merits of manufacturing qualities between the countries of Belgium and Japan brings to mind a comparison test conducted by Bill Resman between the Belgium made Browning Superposed and the (then) new Japanese made (in the Olin Kodensha plant) Winchester 101, reported on in the 1968 issue of The Gun Digest, titled "Browning Versus Winchester; the Upstart Against the Veteran". Though both guns fared well in this comparison (the Winchester was even found to have much better engraving), Mr. Resman concluded, "What the comparison boils down to is this: If you want a gun with top workmanship, an excellent bluing job and glasslike stocks, the first choice is definitely the Browning. If, however, you are interested in a gun with very good workmanship, and perhaps better handling qualities than that found in the Superposed, you can save yourself about a hundred dollars by buying the Winchester 101."

Though this article is decades old and both guns long discontinued (at least in their original forms), I found it interesting that the "Great Debate" continues to this day in a format (the internet) never dreamed of by the prognostics of yore.