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Sulaco2
September 10, 2009, 04:27 PM
Wife wants to shoot clays but after trying my O/U .12 and my son's .16 thinks a .20 would be the answer. I have my doubts after watching her try even the .16, so would a .410 even be possible for use in that area?

BigJimP
September 10, 2009, 04:40 PM
Sure, most of us routinely shoot 12, 20, 28ga and .410 in skeet.

A 28ga will give her a lot better pattern - than the .410 though.

Picking a gun for a new shooter is sometimes tricky. It depends on the length of her arms, upper body strength etc. If she is very petite - there are semi-autos on the market that were built for young shooters - and a 20ga semi-auto might be just what she needs.

You'll find a lot more inexpensive ammo for 12 and 20ga than for 28ga and the .410. A heavier gun will reduce recoil as well / so maybe light 20ga loads is where she needs to be.

zippy13
September 10, 2009, 04:40 PM
The .410-bore is a standard event in skeet. It's not recommended for the newB anymore than learning trap basics from the 27-yard line. If your wife is concerned about recoil, try a 28-ga. (See current thread about .410 vs 28-ga)

zippy13
September 10, 2009, 04:43 PM
BigJimP
I just noticed the OP is in your general area.

SAIGAFISH
September 10, 2009, 04:45 PM
grouse and stuffwith my 410

BigJimP
September 10, 2009, 05:14 PM
where are you shooting at Sulaco ?

oneounceload
September 10, 2009, 05:32 PM
Jim - you mean you need something bigger than a 410 or 28 to hit them easy skeet birds??????..:D;)

OP - BigJim your's skeet man as well as Zippy - trust their advice

BigJimP
September 10, 2009, 05:57 PM
Well Zippy is at least / I'm just a legend in my own mind .... best 25 out of 30 ... / on my better days keeps my average up ...

pvt.Long
September 10, 2009, 08:44 PM
410 is a good choice for skeet

B.L.E.
September 10, 2009, 09:53 PM
Buy a box of Winchester AA Low Recoil target loads for the 12 gauge and let her shoot it.

The ammo you are looking for has a picture of a feather right next to the AA logo.
Specs. 12gauge 2 3/4 inches MIN dr. eq. 26 gram (7/8 ounce) 8 or 9 shot.

This ammo instantly converts a 12 gauge into a 20 gauge, very pleasant to shoot, and it will break those birds. I have even shot trap with them.

A .410 is pleasant to shoot but frustrating to shoot good scores with.

rc
September 11, 2009, 02:01 AM
fixed breech guns tend to kick more than autos. If you can find a 20 guage auto that is comfortable for her to hold and swing like an 1100 youth or something you'll have lighter kick than an O/U12 and more available and cheaper shells than a 410. 410's are often a "kids" gun but best left for xperts!

zombieslayer
September 11, 2009, 04:29 AM
Well, it may be my first post, but i agree- a 20ga auto would be a great choice. Butt- 410 is still a fun gun to shoot and great for smaller game, should you choose to use it for such other sporting purposes. I have a buddy who lets me wipe out squirrels in his nursery, its a bolt action 410 and is damn good for rabbits and such. and skeet!!!:cool:

mwar410
September 11, 2009, 06:28 AM
why do you have your doubts about a 20 ga. ? is the 12/16 to heavy for her? does it recoil too much ? is she shell shocked ? As everyone before has stated, there is much better alternatives to the .410 for beginers.

oneounceload
September 11, 2009, 10:45 AM
fixed breech guns tend to kick more than autos

Only true IF the fixed breech gun weighs the same or less than the semi. Most times, they are heavier, therefore, they recoil less. The semi, in a gas form, MAY have less perceived recoil because the as action bleeds some pressure ff to work the action and thus spreads the recoil over a period of time (measured in milliseconds).

Take a heavy gun and shoot light loads - that lowers recoil. Put a 410 tube set in a 9 pound 12 gauge - now you have a 10 pound gun shooting a 410 - there's no recoil there

BigJimP
September 11, 2009, 10:56 AM
OneOunce is right - to give you something to compare one gun to the other - if you shoot the same shell ( ounces of shot and velocity ) - adding 1 lb to the gun will reduce the recoil almost 12% ( which is a lot )...

If you reduce the weight of the gun by 1 lb - then the recoil increases 12% ...

So you have to be careful using these short ( and light ) guns for a new shooter - unless its a semi-auto that will absorb some of the recoil.

rc
September 11, 2009, 11:14 AM
The problem with making a gun heavier to lighten recoil is that a person who can handle holding and swinging a heavier gun can also handle the recoil! You can take two guns that weight about the same and one might have a lower percieved kick as sulaco2 described due to speading the force over a longer time. I have shot a recoil operated 11/48 12 guage with 1oz loads that kicks much harder than a newer gas operated CZ 720 with 7/8 oz loads. The 20 is a lighter gun and it kicks less than the 12 and it has better balance and swing. BPS 20 guage youth shotguns are nice but they are heavy and not well balanced. They also don't absorb recoil as well as a 20 guage auto. The CZ 720 is a turkish shotgun. They are about identical to the "Escort" shotguns and the Mossberg 720. I've seen the Escort shotguns for about $300 and it would be a fair shotgun for occasional shooting. If I was going to shoot more, I recommend looking for a used 1100 in 20 guage or a beretta, Franchi etc in 20. The turkish shotguns don't have good triggers. The thing you need to figure out is if you wife really wants to shoot other than to please her husband. If not it will be one excuse after another about why the gun isn't right for her. rc

Sulaco2
September 11, 2009, 11:32 AM
BigjimP,
Family shoots mostly in the Sumner valley at a club that is dedicated to sheet and trap shooting. The wife and I were at an informal range at a guest ranch when she tried my Valment .12 O/U and did not like it. (I broke 48 out of 50:D) So she asked what gun would do her better. Keep in mind that she is not a small gal she is 5'9" and (mumbles weight - married 30 years) proportional for her height. :) She used to watch me and my 18 year old shoot and wants in on the action.

BigJimP
September 11, 2009, 12:22 PM
That's odd - the last I knew Sumner sportsman's club didn't have any skeet houses ..... although they do have Trap and sporting clays once a month / and a make shift 5 stand that operates once a week or so.

You're not going to see any serious Skeet shooters hanging out at Sumner / they're mostly Trap shooters - so you won't see hardly any sub-gague guns there.

But picking a gun to fit her - is probably more about getting something that doesn't intimidate her than anything. But 5'9" and 125 lbs at least - means she can handle whatever she wants / but all the more reason to focus on a 20ga for her. I think a semi-auto will be perfect for her / or maybe a 20ga O/U with 28" barrels ( something around 7 1/2 lbs ). A Beretta, Benelli, Remington, etc depending on your budget will all work. My pesonal choice is a Benelli SuperSport ( Cabelas, Western Outdoors (used to be Sportsman's warehouse in Fife or Lacy, etc have them in stock for around $1,750 ). The 20ga version - is very light at about 6.2 lbs / and even my 13 year old granddaughters like shooting that gun. I also have a Browning Citori XS Skeet, 30" barrels, in 28ga that I use when the kids are starting out / but that's a $3,000 gun these days if you can find one.

I think focusing on a semi-auto is probably smart / and you'll find a lot of good used guns around too.

Sulaco2
September 11, 2009, 03:55 PM
Thanks BJP and you are right about the trap vs sheet at Sumner, buts its my 18 year olds son's fav place and they shoot for the public on Tues and Sundays. Also shoot and belong to Paul Bunyan in Puyallup.

1700 is a little pricey for us, I think the next WAC club meet in Monroe would be a good place to hunt up a .28 or more likely a .20 in semi. Though the .20 in the O/U does sound attractive! If she did not like it I would HAVE to place it in my battery...;)

BigJimP
September 11, 2009, 04:20 PM
Seattle Trap and Skeet is in Ravensdale ( maybe 30 min east of Sumner ) / they have public shooting on Sat and Sun ( unless there is a tournament ) - and they have Skeet, Trap and 5 stand .....about the same price as Sumner ( but Sumner is a good club too ) and Tue and Thurs evenings right now / but that will end soon with Fall coming.

http://sstclub.com/

WAC is not a good place, in my mind, to shop for shotguns - the show just doesn't have a good selection of shotguns / or they'll be overpriced - and in general very little in the way of "target quality" shotguns. For a used gun, check out DJ's in Bothell / or check the "used gun board at the clubs ".

http://www.insiderpages.com/b/3723443661
He will have by far the best selection of high quality used shotguns around / and he can order whatever you want and beat most of the shops in the area on price. He probably has 150 shotguns in inventory now / combination of new and used ( maybe 30 semi-autos ) ...

rc
September 11, 2009, 06:18 PM
The only time I found the 20 inadequate was at trap where the extra shot of a 12 guage makes a significant difference in my score. On the skeet range I do just as well or better with 20 and have hunted pheasant with 20 though I like 3" shells for that. I have seen real experts clean up on the skeet range with 1/2 oz 410 loads. Given your wife is not a dainty gal, I'd say the right 20 will do everything your wife wants and will be OK for informal trap shooting where score is not a big deal. Since it sounds like she wants to shoot a lot you would have to reload 410 for cost to be competitive with the bigger guages. Last I checked 410 is about $10/25 and 12/20s are about $5. There is alos a lot better selection of 20s than 410s.

oneounceload
September 11, 2009, 06:49 PM
The problem with making a gun heavier to lighten recoil is that a person who can handle holding and swinging a heavier gun can also handle the recoil!

Sorry RC, your analysis is wrong.
Just because someone can handle a heavy gun has NO BEARING on their ability to handle or not handle recoil. I know a woman, in her late 60's, all of 5 foot nothing, maybe 105 who shoots a 9# K gun BECAUSE she can't handle the recoil - she's a heck of a sporting clays shooter too and can shoot all day BECAUSE she doesn't have to worry about recoil.
I'm over 6'2 and 260 - I do not like, nor will I shoot, loads over 1200 fps and 1 oz, because of the recoil.


The 20 is a lighter gun and it kicks less than the 12 and it has better balance and swing.

Not even close. That is only true depending on how the gun fits YOU. MANY 20's have substantially MORE recoil because the weight is less than a 12. Try a 7/8 oz load in a 7lb 20 and a 8-1/2 12. Assuming both fit you the same, there is no physical way the 20 recoils less.

You can take two guns that weight about the same and one might have a lower percieved kick as sulaco2 described due to speading the force over a longer time.

That has EVERYTHING to do with gun fit. A lighter gun that fits you perfectly, will have less perceived recoil than a gas gun that does not.

There is a difference between ACTUAL and PERCEIVED recoil - weight, fit and operating system ALL come to bear on this.

OP - get your wife to a shotgun club and rent/borrow/try as many types and gauges as you can and let HER decide which one feels right to her. It might be an auto, semi, pump, SxS or whatever. YOU cannot pick out a gun for HER.

BigJimP
September 11, 2009, 07:04 PM
+1 on what OneOunce said ..... ( I went back and read some of your comments that I sort of skipped over rc ...)

in my opinion, the Browning BPS is a very well balanced gun in 12 or 20ga / but I'm not suggesting a pump gun is the best option for a new shooter. A pump gun is priced right ... but to use it effectively in Skeet or Sporting Clays - the shooter will need to have the strength and ability to cycle the pump - without dropping the gun down from her face... and there are a lot of shooters / let alone new shooters - that have trouble doing that.

I just don't find a pump gun / except on single targets - is a very good option for a new shooter wanting to get into the clay target sports - especially Skeet and Sporting / but it can be just fine for Trap.

But it sounds like your budget is under $1,000 - so I would still try and take a look at some good used semi-autos and see what you find around. The cost of 20ga ammo - is way less than 28ga .... so don't go to a 28ga unless you want to get into reloading.

oneounceload
September 11, 2009, 07:14 PM
I'm thinking Jim that maybe there needs to be a sticky at the top that has the links, documented evidence, and a simple, clear explanation of what recoil is, how it is calculated, and how different guns determine the same.......

There is WAY too much confusion about this.

It is very simple - HEAVY gun plus LIGHT load = LOW ACTUAL recoil

Add a gas system and PERCEIVED recoil is less

Add a perfect gun FIT and PERCEIVED recoil is less.

zippy13
September 11, 2009, 10:59 PM
1-oz
I'm thinking Jim that maybe there needs to be a sticky at the top that has the links, documented evidence, and a simple, clear explanation of what recoil is, how it is calculated, and how different guns determine the same….…
Please see PM

zippy13
September 11, 2009, 11:39 PM
With this talk about gun weight and load reduction in consideration of reducing recoil, I'm compelled to remind everyone: In the simple terms, recoil energy is a reaction to the load mass times the square of the velocity. When considering reducing your loads for less recoil, first think about lowering the velocity.

Like oneounceload, I'm 6-2+ and recoil sensitive, also. In an attempt to reduce recoil, I went thru a lot of load evaluation. For close-in targets, like skeet, 1200fsp (and even 1,150 fps) is overkill. Dropping to 1,100 fps still crushes targets and reduces energy by 19%. As advocated by oneounceload, if you drop from 1-1/8oz to 1oz, then your recoil is down another 11%.

I should mention that, in the long run, I cheated and had air cushion stocks put on my guns. So, now is doesn't matter what I shoot. :cool:

B.L.E.
September 12, 2009, 08:10 AM
Like oneounceload, I'm 6-2+ and recoil sensitive, also. In an attempt to reduce recoil, I went thru a lot of load evaluation. For close-in targets, like skeet, 1200fsp (and even 1,150 fps) is overkill. Dropping to 1,100 fps still crushes targets and reduces energy by 19%. As advocated by oneounceload, if you drop from 1-1/8oz to 1oz, then your recoil is down another 11%.


Actually, going from 1 1/8 to 1 ounce will drop recoil by about 20%.

Recoil energy divides up according to the ratio of bullet to gun weight. If a gun weighs 100 times as much as the bullet, then the gun's recoil kinetic energy is 1/100 the kinetic energy of the bullet.

When you reduce shot weight, and keep velocity the same, you not only have less total kinetic energy, but since the gun still weighs the same, the gun gets a lower percentage of the total kinetic energy. So, reducing shot weight has a recoil reduction very similar to reducing velocity.

If you doubt this, compare the recoil of a .22 Hornet rifle shooting a 40 grain bullet at 2900 fps to the recoil of a 3 inch .410 magnum shooting a 5/8 ounce load at 1100 fps. These have similar kinetic energys. 733 ft lb for the shotgun and 749 ft lb for the rifle.

oneounceload
September 12, 2009, 12:31 PM
Originally Posted by oneounceload
I'm thinking Jim that maybe there needs to be a sticky at the top that has the links, documented evidence, and a simple, clear explanation of what recoil is, how it is calculated, and how different guns determine the same….…
Please see PM

answered........