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View Full Version : JPSauer Duraluminum Krupp barrel nazi markings Dated 23Oktober 1934


OldSeal2
September 10, 2009, 02:47 AM
Hey there,

I was wondering about the value of this pistol.

This gun was given by Hitler himself to his early choosen officers in 1934 as personal gifts. Eagle on left side and a scrolled AH on the right side of the gun 7.65 cal on slide and patent. Krupp barrel, duraluminum body and a two stage trigger. I have the holster and on clip with 2 shells still in the clip. I have the original paper signed and dated Sept 7 1945. European theater armed forces with all the proper signatures. This was taken off an officer in the final push into Berlin Early 1945.

It is in pretty good shape. Grips both cracked when some body tightened the screws too tight. Front sight might be gone to. Other than that it is in great shape.

Ideas?

RJay
September 11, 2009, 01:04 PM
With out good sharp pictures pictures and serial number I don't think you are going to get much information. Why do you feel this was a presentation firearm? Is it so marked? Stainless?, I don't think so, nickle plated a possibility if it is a a 1930 Behorden commercial model. Or perhaps done after the war? Nether the German military nor police used nickle or chrome plated guns and as far as I know there weren't any presentation guns nickeled or chromed.

Bill DeShivs
September 11, 2009, 01:19 PM
There were some lightweight aluminum Sauers made. Aluminum is not stainless steel. We need good pictures to tell you more. Many fake "Hitler" guns were created, though.

OldSeal2
September 11, 2009, 07:46 PM
Thanks for replying to my post. Your right not stainless!! Duralumin engraved on right side of the slide and body of the gun. The barrel is made and stamped by Fried R. Krupp with the 3 rings. Trust me its not a fake I have the Certificate with the signatures from the United States Forces European theater headquarters. The soldiers Name is Francis M Sturdevent. serial #39181545. The date is 7 Sept. 1945. As far as the citation gun story it is what my late father was told when he came into possesion of the gun in the 50's Serial # on the gun is 216869 Will post pictures later today.

Bill DeShivs
September 11, 2009, 09:31 PM
Many guns were embellished after the war in Germany. High quality engraving was available for a carton of cigarettes. The gun is probably legit. Not sure of the markings, though. Please post pictures.

OldSeal2
September 12, 2009, 12:02 AM
Heres the pictures. Hope they fit. Tought to get all the details. Its in pretty good shape but for the cracked grips and I think theres the Sauer trade mark missing from the circle about the Initials. Front sight who knows.I have more pictures if you like. Thanks for the help!!!

Bill DeShivs
September 12, 2009, 01:16 AM
You have a very interesting gun. No mention of Duralumin was made in my references for this 1930 "Behorden" model Sauer. An aluminum slide is especially rare. The Germans were pioneers in using aluminum. The grips look to be originally made with the emblems imbedded, and appear original to the gun.
I suggest you research this gun further, with both gun and Nazi historians.
Without the Hitler provenance, it is an extremely rare gun. With Hitler provenance, you could name your price.

sauerfan
September 12, 2009, 04:29 AM
Gentlemen,

this is an interesting and rare variation of the Sauer „Behördenmodell“ (NOT modell 1930) with frame and slide made of Duraluminum (trademark by Krupp), a spezial alumnimum alloy. Barrel probably will not only shown the three ring Krupp trademark, but also the word “NIROSTA” (another Krupp trademark) – or? If so: Nirosta does indicate a stainless steel. Barrels with the Nirosta trademark are rare also. See photo of a Nirosta barrel of a Behördenmodell.

Regarding the pistol itself: It’s a “Behhördenmodell” – not a model 1930, as the 1930 does not have the safety trigger and does not have a loading indicator.

Sauer made some Behördenmodels with a aluminium frame and slide – some “in the white”, some are black anodized. In any case, a rare variation I am searching since long. Very hard to find! BTW: the Duralumnium variations are mentioned in "J. P. Sauer & Sohn, Suhl, Waffenstadt - A historical study on Automatic Pistols" volume I by Jim Cate/ Nico van Gijn and in volume II by Jim Cate/Martin Krause.

Regarding the grips: sorry, but my opinion: a typical GI decoration. I don’t believe, that the grips are pre 1945. For two reasons:

1/ on left grip is a Nazi police eagle inserted, while on left is “AH” monogram. Doesn’t make sense to me.

2/ The grips are awful. In fact, somebody ruined the frame by drilling two new threads in necessary to screw the two new screws in. Original grips do have only one screw in the middle – see image of an original Behördenmodell.

Anyway, an interesting pistol. With a set of original grips and with missing parts added (front sight, rear pin) it’s a keeper. As the rear pin is missing I fear, the Mechanism housing will be missing also, right? See here:

http://www.marstar.ca/AssemblySauer1930-02.htm

where you can see the Mechanism housing and its pin –what is missing on the pistol.


Regards

Martin

P.S: Just noticed in my datalist of known Sauer pistols: 216868 is a Duraluminium variation also. And also located in the US....

OldSeal2
September 12, 2009, 09:07 AM
About the grips, I carefully removed them and there is a extra hole for a single scew to attach them. My Father fired the pistol when he got it in the 50's and it fired great. I will research it further and see what I come up with. The story was told to my father that this was custom made for Hitler by the Sauer & Sohn Suhl Germany for Gifts or citation guns to his early officers in 1934. This gun was found by Francis Sturdivent in the final days of the war in a house around Berlin. He told my father that he new that it was a special gun and asked questions to German prisoners to find out more about the gun. Will keep you all posted!! Its nice to hold a little history for 4tires and a tune-up and Oil change. Thats what my dad gave to get the gun!!

sauerfan
September 12, 2009, 09:37 AM
Hi Oldseal2,

The story was told to my father

Sorry to say, but there are millions of “The vet I got it from told me” stories – mostly dealing with “told me he captured the gun from a SS general who wasn’t in need of the pistol any longer”….. reality looked more like this:

http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/gallery/r084.htm

http://www.skylighters.org/special/cigcamps/images/luckylinelg.jpg

http://www.skylighters.org/special/cigcamps/images/luckytentlg.jpg

that this was custom made for Hitler by the Sauer & Sohn Suhl Germany for Gifts or citation guns to his early officers in 1934.

Interesting story – but I never heard or saw of any Sauer presentation guns made for Hitler – simply because it is not likely. The party’s gun maker was the Walther company. All official Party Leader’s pistols are Walthers, not Sauers. All Party presentation guns I’m aware of are Walthers. There are no records at all in the Suhl Archives about any Sauer activity relating to special gift pistols for the Führer himself. None.

This gun was found by Francis Sturdivent in the final days of the war in a house around Berlin

Please remember, no American soldiers were there! Berlin and it surrounding area saw only Russians in the final days of the war – and when the war was over, the Americans had their sector in Berlin, but no around Berlin.

To avoid any misunderstandings: I don’t want to “badmouth” your pistol. It’s a damn rare variation of the Sauer Behördenmodell I liked to own myself (I’d gave more than just four new tires and an oil change :D ). But regarding the grips…. No. What could be: it's a more or less private presentation gun to a police officer with the initials "A.H.". Who knows.

Regards

Martin

OldSeal2
September 12, 2009, 10:03 AM
I just really am glad to find someone who knows about the history of these guns. I just remember what my late father was told when he got the gun.
Being German myself (Kuntz) its nice to know these things. No offense taken on the badmouth comment. Maybe he picked it up post war in Berlin the paper is dated 7 Sept 1945. I wonder why the date 28 Oktober 1934?? I am looking up the records of Francis M. Sturdivent to find out more info.
Best regards, Steve

Bill DeShivs
September 12, 2009, 01:32 PM
Not being a Sauer expert I can give no more information about the gun.
But I can tell you that the grips were factory-made to accept medallians. The grip inlays are not done by a craftsman. Notice there is a border around the inlays where the checkering stops? This would not be so on homemade grips. Could you post pictures of the inside of the grips?
I also suspect that the two grip screws were standard on the aluminum framed guns, but have no proof of that. The fact that there is no "center" hole in the frame for standard grips supports this.

OldSeal2
September 12, 2009, 06:53 PM
Hey Bill, Heres the pictures of the grips hope this will help with the history of this little gun. Hope they will fit in the jpeg file on this forum.!!
Steve

Bill DeShivs
September 12, 2009, 08:28 PM
Most grip medallions are secured from the rear. Your grips appear to be checkered horn. I'm on a tiny netbook, but I'll look further when I get home.
Many early autos were made with horn grips.
Either way, I see no clues one way or the other.

OldSeal2
September 12, 2009, 09:03 PM
Hi again Bill,
Let me know when you get a better look. It looks like they are fastened with some type of large staple or clamp from th inside for sure. Thanks again and have a good night.
Steve K.

James K
September 12, 2009, 09:48 PM
The paper shown is a standard "capture paper". It certifies nothing about the gun except the serial number. It does not indicate anything special about it or how it was obtained, only that the GI named is authorized to bring or send it back to the U.S.

As for German civilians surrendering "Nazi" items, they were ordered to surrender all guns. Most were destroyed after Americans took what they wanted. Where do you think those sporting rifles and shotguns and drillings and civilian handguns in this country came from? They were not captured from the German army or the Waffen SS; they came from German civilian homes where they had been treasured possessions of folks like us. That is what it means to be a conquered people.

And that is what some of our own leaders would like to do to American citizens - treat us like a conquered people and send tanks and troops to seize our guns.

Jim

Bill DeShivs
September 13, 2009, 12:59 AM
Oldseal
Yes, I can see the attaching points now.

Since the grips have already been "repaired," should you like them restored to as close to original as possible, I can undertake the job. I have much experience working with horn. You would need to find a Sauer escutcheon to replace the missing one first.
The grips appear to be factory items, as near as I can tell. They were made to accept the emblems, and are not something someone indiscriminately inlaid the emblems in.

sauerfan
September 13, 2009, 10:15 AM
Gentlemen,

meanwhile, I have to correct myself in some points: there IS another one similar to 216869 which was shown long time ago in an reader’s letter in German gun magazine DWJ (Deutsches Waffen-Journal) back in the 70s. Unfortunately, I wasn’t able yet to find the issue again. Well, said photo is shown in Cate/Krause page 180 also.

Anyway: there was/is shown one photo of the left side of a Sauer Dural Behördenmodell having an awful long presentation engraving with something like “the police comrades of Saxony to their dear colleague Kurt Dalluege 11th May 1935”. For Kurt Dalluege see here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Daluege

No SN was mentioned unfortunately, but it has the very same grip(s), at least, the left grip is identical: two screw attachment, probably made of horn with the early III. Reich police eagle (looking to the right – not to the left like the later police eagles) inserted.

The question now is: were the grips made at the Sauer factory or added later?

Question: How does the frame look under the grips? Only two threaded bores present – or three?

Please see my photo of a standard Behördenmodell with grips removed – there is a threaded bore for the grip screw.

Is this bore present on 216869 also?

If it is not present: well, in this case we can think about factory made grips.

In any case, I don’t believe that the “AH” monogram can be brought into connection with Hitler. Simply because a monogram is the monogram of the owner – not of the person who presented it. Consequently, the owner probably was a high ranking police officer with the initials “A. H.”

Best regards

Martin

poloberst
September 13, 2009, 11:31 AM
Is it possible to see how the date is inscribed on the pistol?

RsqVet
September 13, 2009, 01:58 PM
Great piece, than you so much for sharing. Had someone called me about such a gun I would have not believed it.

Again very nice, value anyone?

poloberst
September 13, 2009, 03:34 PM
A noted collecting colleague suggested that an placing it on Gunbroker will provide the most accurate value.

OldSeal2
September 13, 2009, 05:32 PM
Sorry I took so long to post this. Here's the picture of the gun with the grips off. There is a hole in the center for a single screw. I looked very close with a magnifing glass it looks like there is threads but very clean and maybe not used. They are shiny. The two other two holes for the grip are perfect, not drilled and then a screw put in the hole. will post the picture now. If you look close in the pic you can see the date 28 Oktober 1934.

OldSeal2
September 13, 2009, 05:54 PM
I am in the process of tracking down Francis M Sturdivent or a close relative to find more about the history of this gun. Will keep every one posted. Thank you all for your interest. Its been in my family over 50 years.
Steve K.

poloberst
September 13, 2009, 09:08 PM
Thanks for pointing out the location of the date.

James K
September 13, 2009, 09:44 PM
Just one note. The screws holding on those grips look like U.S. round head machine screws. That leads me to think that the grips might have been put on in the U.S. or perhaps U.S. screws used to replace the originals. If possible, you might check the thread size of the screws to see if they are U.S. or metric.

Jim

sauerfan
September 14, 2009, 10:11 AM
Oldseal2,

thanks fort he photo of the pistol with grips removed. As there is a centre drill for the standard grip screw I believe we can forget the idea of factory made grips. It doesn’t matter. Presentation guns like this are normally based on factory standard guns and were amended by a local gunsmith or the like.

Most interesting gun – I wished, it could talk.

Regards

Martin

OldSeal2
September 14, 2009, 10:54 AM
Hey Martin,
Wow I wish this gun could talk too!! Still going to try to find the man on the certificate hoping he still with us. My Dad passed in 1989. He was a very honest man and was so excited when the gun came to our home. My father spoke very good German so it was a special treat for him to own this gun. As far as the stories go, well your guess is as good as mine.

Ps I checked the holes and they are metric??
Steve