Chicago PD shoots offender and....Chicago PD?

[DT Guy]

Perhaps I missed another post-if so, my apologies:
Remember Rule Number Four? (http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2009/08/2-shot-outside-loop-tv-studio.html)

I'm not judging-perhaps what was done was the best available option, and absolutely necessary.

I will say that I'm amazed nobody considered impact weapons (batons) against the knife, as it appears they had time and (some degree of) containment.

I would also note the explanation at the end by the spokesman, who makes shooting into a 'human police backstop' sound more like an act of god or nature than a decision by a human being. :)
Weis said the incident illustrates "the dangers of police work."

"We had someone who was trying to murder someone right in front of two officers," he said. "And unfortunately they have to use some type of force to protect that individual. So when you have weapons involved and bullets are being fired, sometimes it's a very dangerous situation. Fortunately, no one was hit other than the person who was trying to murder an individual and the officer, and thanks to God, he had body armor on him and he was fine."

Larry

[Sparks2112]

I'm curious as to whether or not the bullet that struck the officer first penetrated all the way through the perp in this instance. Anyone know what Chicago PD is carrying these days?

Good thing he had a vest.

[BobbyT]

I'm pretty sure Chicago cops carry Glock 22s (.40 S&W).

They're definitely JHPs, so I doubt it was a through-and-through. Likely it either winged the guy, hit a limb, or even missed entirely.

Now that this kind of thing is becoming the norm, what happens when you get stabbed without a cop conveniently in sight? No self defense allowed for the Peons in Daley's Chicago...

[Hkmp5sd]

I will say that I'm amazed nobody considered impact weapons (batons) against the knife, as it appears they had time and (some degree of) containment

You have to get waaay too close to use a baton. Remember, distance is your friend against someone armed with a knife.

[DT Guy]

I understand the distance concerns-but it sounds like there were several officers there to provide cover, and time to try OC. And while a baton vs. knife isn't first choice, neither is setting off four or five (accounts vary) rounds on a crowded street, IMHO.

Larry

[pax]

They had already tried OC and it failed. From the linked article:

The officers initially had tried to subdue the man with pepper spray as he brandished a knife and threatened people...

And

The officers tried to hit him with pepper spray, they did, no effect. He continued on and he kept escalating his actions.

So OC hadn't worked. Why not try a little tincture of time? Lots of other cops on scene, so why not back off and wait? Here's why:

But when he grabbed an elderly man...

Okay, so you've got a violent person with a knife who has already shrugged off the pepper spray. And now knifeguy has just grabbed a bystander, so there's no time to futz around with lesser options: the creep has to be stopped RIGHT NOW or the innocent person dies.

It's impossible to tell from the article whether the other cop was shot by a pass-through or by a miss, but given that the perpetrator was DRT and the elderly victim uninjured, I'm betting it was a pass through. Be interesting to see details on it, if they come out.

From the article:

"They were in very close proximity," Weis said. "The officer who was hit in the vest had actually had hands on the individual trying to disarm him. The other officer, in fear of both his partner's life and the innocent victim, he used his weapon, striking both the offender and his partner officer."

That sure sounds like a pass-through. (And like a wild rodeo...)

And here's the tactics and training component: watch your backstop and your angles. You are responsible for every round that leaves your firearm, not just the ones that hit your intended target. It would very much suck to kill someone you loved while trying to save the life of someone else you care about.

pax

[DT Guy]

I realize they had time to try OC-hence my suggestion that, if they had time to try OC, they could have (instead) tried a disarm with an impact weapon.

OC isn't first choice on a knife-wielding subject, anymore than a baton is, but a mechanical disarm is more reliable than a chemical restraint, if you have to choose.

Again, Monday-morning quarterbacking; but I really wonder what happened to those OTHER rounds, and what the spokesman would be saying if they were lodged in a couple of citizens, rather than having dissipated into the ether....


Larry

[Sparks2112]

Quote:
"They were in very close proximity," Weis said. "The officer who was hit in the vest had actually had hands on the individual trying to disarm him. The other officer, in fear of both his partner's life and the innocent victim, he used his weapon, striking both the offender and his partner officer."

That sure sounds like a pass-through. (And like a wild rodeo...)

That's what I was thinking.

[Old Grump]

Lord I am happy I do not live down there anymore. Had plenty of guns but had to keep them locked up and hid. Only had a folding knife and a makeshift kubotan made out of a ballpeen hammer handle for self defense.

So now I live in Wisconsin where I don't have to hide them but can't carry them while driving and can't carry concealed. And people think California is screwy. Cops did what they had to do and I'm glad that his buddy didn't think his vest was to heavy and hot and left it at home or in his locker like some do, you just never know.

[Slopemeno]

You'd be amazed how quickly someone can cover 5-10 yards and stick you. I'm not going anywhere near someone with a knife, and I'd treat one the same way I'd treat a firearm.

[mskdgunman]

I was always taught that impact and other intermediate weapons are generally not for someone wielding a knife. Now, were there time and another officer and there was no immediate danger to anyone, you MIGHT consider a Taser so long as the other officer was standing by with a lethal force option in the event the Taser missed or failed to stop the BG. In a one on one against someone with a knife, I'll take the firearm every time (time permitting). If someone would like to bet their life by using a baton or pepper spray against a knife, be my guest. Knife = deadly force

You should always watch your backstop but in a tense, confusing situation I can see how it happens. Hope the cop recovers and everybody learns a lesson

[Dragon55]

Inside 5 feet a person with a good sized knife is actually more dangerous than the average citizen with a handgun. Although a knife won't knock you down it certainly has a better chance of killing you. Gashes take longer to heal than holes and a knife doesn't run out of ammo.

This situation became much more complicated because of the hostage. It seems the officers did the best they could under the circumstances.

[csmsss]

DT Guy, it sounds to me you're just looking for any way, no mattered how tortured the reasoning, to justify to yourself that the cop was wrong in shooting the BG. Not as I see it. A knife is a deadly weapon, and an innocent victim was in imminent danger from the bad guy in this case. I'm just glad the injured police officer will apparently be ok.

[armsmaster270]

Way to go CPD

[Latex Ducky]

haha I had to reload my knife the other day.

What does OC and DRT mean?

OC = Oleoresin Capsicum (Pepper Spray)
DRT = Dead Right There

[BikerRN]

You'd be amazed how quickly someone can cover 5-10 yards and stick you. I'm not going anywhere near someone with a knife, and I'd treat one the same way I'd treat a firearm.

I agree.

I'm actually more scared of someone with a knife than I am a gun. The difference is:

With a gun I may get shot.
With a knife I will get cut

Against an adversary with a knife inside of ten to fifteen yards I'm going with a gun every chance I get.

Biker

[Wagonman]

It was a through and through shot that hit the other Copper. The offender had a knife to a citizens throat, the Copper had one play he made it. other Copper ok with a hit to his vest. I don't know what the Copper was carrying. We are authorized .38 spcl, 9mm, .45, 40 S&W in all the major brands---either DAO or striker fired---depending on time OTJ

[BikerRN]

So no more .357 Magnum for you Chicago coppers?

Dang, there goes the neighborhood.

Biker

[bcarver]

Ponder this. How many times do you tell someone to drop a knife?
If they had waited another couple seconds the citizen could have been killed.
What would you charge ($$$) to disarm a knife wielding maniac with a baton?
Is it really worth risking you life to save the life of a knife wielding maniac?
How long before a knife wielding maniac will be out of hospital/jail after being disarmed by baton wielding cop?
How many knife wielding maniac does a town the size of Chicago need?
It is nothing wrong with being crazy until it threatens others.

Deadly weapons call for deadly force, not spray and batons and stern words.

But I may be wrong.

[kokopelli]

Gee whiz- I can hear them now "why didn't that officer just use pepper spray/mace/nightstick/tazer/tackle him/wait him out..." when the poor little crazy criminal wielding a knife gets shot by the police.
Give me a freakin' break! If you don't want to take a chance at getting shot and killed (rightfully so) by the police, then DON'T start something!!!
Good lord, who CARES if this lunatic coulda-woulda-shoulda been apprehended with a Tactical Teddy Bear Maneuver. HE chose his path. HE must pay the price.
Way to go CPD.

[tshadow6]

Sorry guys, but if some bad guy pulls a knife, I'm putting two in his chest. First thing all police recruits are taught when it comes to fighting is "50/50 mean you lose" No cop will or should EVER fight "fair". A retired Illinois corrections officer friend of mine told me the snipers of the Dept. of Corrections are trained to shoot through the good guy's shoulder in order to hit the bad guy. My favorite saying when it comes to fighting for your life- "The only dirty fight is the one you lose."

P.S. I'm into my 19th year as a Corrections Officer and I've never lost a fight. I've caused an entire housing unit to be moved to the rec yard so the cell could be aired out after I dumped a whole can of pepper spray on ONE bad guy because if I hadn't emptied the can I would have been killed.

[DT Guy]

<Chuckle>

No, I'm not at all concerned that Mr. BG got all dead. I've no idea how anyone got this idea:

DT Guy, it sounds to me you're just looking for any way, no mattered how tortured the reasoning, to justify to yourself that the cop was wrong in shooting the BG. Not as I see it. A knife is a deadly weapon, and an innocent victim was in imminent danger from the bad guy in this case. I'm just glad the injured police officer will apparently be ok.

The only tactical 'error' I'm considering is using the partner as a backstop, and the only reason I'd avoid using a firearm is because the area in question is absolutely TEEMING with people at that time of day.

I'm not suggesting that a baton vs. a knife is generally appropriate on the use-of-force continuum, but wondering 'aloud' if alternatives for disarming this yahoo existed.

For the record, I've survived three knife attacks, and teach both knife and counter-knife; I'm exceptionally aware of what a knife can do, from both the perspective of a defender and an aggressor.

Perhaps this question will arouse less (mistaken) ire: I wonder if any officer considered approaching from behind and shooting straight down into the offender's head? That would be one of the very few 'safe' shots to take, but I'm guessing that most wouldn't even consider it, never having been taught to shoot that way.

Larry

[pax]

Perhaps this question will arouse less (mistaken) ire: I wonder if any officer considered approaching from behind and shooting straight down into the offender's head? That would be one of the very few 'safe' shots to take, but I'm guessing that most wouldn't even consider it, never having been taught to shoot that way.

Larry, I'm with you. There's more than one way to watch your angles & your backstop.

It sure sounds like a wild situation. Wonder if that was an option in this case.

pax

[Double Naught Spy]

I wonder if any officer considered approaching from behind ...

And maybe that is how the officer got shot, only he didn't expect the situation in front to change as it changed and his effective sneaking around to the back was overly effective?

Yeah, with a dynamic situation, the firing officer might have had rule number 4 in the clear up and until the very last split second when another officer moved into the line of trajectory (and potentially not in the line of situational sight). In other words, the field of fire might have been clear the moment before shooting and when the situation escalated, the shooting officer became necessarily focussed on not shooting the old man that was grabbed, thereby shortening his situational view while at the same time, another officer previously not in the field of fire moved around behind the suspect, out of situational view.

In a dynamic situation, it can be hard to stop a bad guy when immediacy demands, while at the same time doing a secondary visual sweep of all areas behind and beyond the target.

[garryc]

I will say that I'm amazed nobody considered impact weapons (batons) against the knife, as it appears they had time and (some degree of) containment.



Nope, if a guy is in close with a knife he is deploying lethal force. The only appropriate responce is lethal force.

[Dannyl]

First, Well done to the police officers for saving the life of the hostage.

There is, however a lesson to be learnt;

That is of working as a team and being constantly aware of each other's field of fire in relevance to the oponent.
Tactical movement in coordination with your team mate is essential to allow each officer to be able to respond wihtout any hesitation of hitting his team mate (and without actually hitting him as it happened in this case) in a scenario such as this even the slightlest hesitation can cost someone serious injury or death.

I AM NOT criticizing the officers, just pointing to something that can be learnt form this.

Brgds,
Danny

[Wagonman]

Agreed, in every incident there are lessons to be learned. The issue I have is the accusatory MMQBing especially in the media.

There is a incident now where some Coppers in the course of serving a search warrant on a known drug house had Pit Bulls deployed against them. the Coppers stopped the threat and some bullet fragments struck the children :mad: that were in the room. There is some media uproar against the Cops. Instead of blaming the human debris that is storing huge amounts of illegal drugs and attack drugs in the same home as kids.

same kinda idiotic comments

[Erik]

"What does OC and DRT mean?"

OC = oleoresin capsicum, commonly known as pepper spray.
DRT = dead right there.

[isanchez2008]

I realize they had time to try OC-hence my suggestion that, if they had time to try OC, they could have (instead) tried a disarm with an impact weapon.

OC isn't first choice on a knife-wielding subject, anymore than a baton is, but a mechanical disarm is more reliable than a chemical restraint, if you have to choose.


Do a little research on why attempting to "disarm" a perp with a knife is a bad idea. You will find some nasty pics of severely lacerated officers :mad: . No thanks and glad the good guys came out alive.

[DT Guy]

It seems the one thing I'm bringing away from this is that a discussion of the subtle, often essentially insoluble tactical issues presented by a dynamic tactical situation are lost on many people.

YES, lethal force was justified here-no doubt. EMPLOYING the deadly force without collateral damage was the trick, and it seems that luck played a part in this situation's successful resolution. Eliminating the role of luck is what training is for.

YES, I'm aware that a knife disarm is tricky. I'm also aware, having done it, that it's possible with appropriate coverage from an armed partner and aggressive use of a baton.

I'm not trying to reason out a scenario where the bad guy survives; he made his decision, and that's fine. I'm wondering what I would have done on a crowded (the loop at that time of morning is pretty crazy, actually) sidewalk in that situation.

One thing I haven't seen discussed, although I've wondered it myself; knowing your partner is wearing a vest, would you consider intentionally using him as a backstop? If you knew his vest would stop your duty ammo, it would ALMOST make sense to do so-although it would take great communication and trust.

Larry

[majortoo]

Good job, Chicago Police! Another element to consider in the complex situational dynamics (AKA: when the stuff is hitting the fan) is the possibility (probability?) that the suspect is high on some controlled substance. That being the case, there is a whole new set of rules that kick in, according to the behavioral science professionals. The LEO (law enforcement officer) often has about three seconds to make a life or death decision. Bottom line: we don't pay these officers enough, in terms of money or respect.

[BikerRN]

One thing I haven't seen discussed, although I've wondered it myself; knowing your partner is wearing a vest, would you consider intentionally using him as a backstop? If you knew his vest would stop your duty ammo, it would ALMOST make sense to do so-although it would take great communication and trust.


This is just plain STUPID!

I'll tell you what. I will give you my vest, shoot through a pork loin and have you stop the bullet, wearing my vest. If you cannot see the idiocy of that, there is nothing more to be discussed with you IMO.

Mods, if I've broken a rule here I'm sorry. I am calling this one like I see it without any niceties.

Biker

[pax]

BikerRN ~

The general rule of thumb for members is simply this: if you think your post is over the line for TFL's standards, it probably is. You can edit it to tone it down. It's quite possible to express strong opinions without resorting to outright rudeness. ("Think twice, post once" - can't remember which mod has that as a sig line, but it's a good idea for most of us.)

As for the idea you're expressing: I get it! But I also think Richard Davis would disagree with you. He used to regularly demonstrate his faith in his products in the most vivid possible way. You might say he stood behind his work... :eek:

DTGuy ~

Richard Davis' example notwithstanding, I don't believe that deliberately using one's partner as a backstop would be approved by any LEA policy or by any department trainers I've ever heard of. Even if that were not the case, too much could go too badly haywire: if the situation is moving so rapidly that you must shoot, it's probably moving too rapidly to direct your shots with that degree of precision. It would really suck to miss the vest by 1/2 inch.

Your first idea was better: move in aggressively and do what you need to do to end the situation. And remember that the ground makes a better backstop than your partner does.

pax

[WIN71]

As for the idea you're expressing: I get it! But I also think Richard Davis would disagree with you. He used to regularly demonstrate his faith in his products in the most vivid possible way. You might say he stood behind his work...

I can't shoot that straight in the first place let alone even pretend to be able to reliably predict where the bullet will go after it hits and passes through. Obviously if the backstop officer is hit with a drastically slowed projectile in the vest fine. I'd worry about femoral, brachial arteries, face, neck, eyes, head and dozens of other semi lethal areas.
Besides, didn't Gecko 45 have a similar plan ?

[Double Naught Spy]

But I also think Richard Davis would disagree with you. He used to regularly demonstrate his faith in his products in the most vivid possible way. You might say he stood behind his work...

But not with 2 year old Zylon vests.

One thing I haven't seen discussed, although I've wondered it myself; knowing your partner is wearing a vest, would you consider intentionally using him as a backstop? If you knew his vest would stop your duty ammo, it would ALMOST make sense to do so-although it would take great communication and trust.

As noted there is the chance of missing the vest itself. The other aspect is that you don't know that the vest being worn will stop the round. That is why they are called bullet resistant and not bullet proof. Yes, a vest rated for a given round should stop the round, but as at least 2 cops found out with their 2nd Chance Zylon vests (of which one died). Even if the vest stops the round, there is the potential for serious injury due to blunt force trauma.

[Dannyl]

On a second though, no.
I am not willing to do away with good old " Do not point your muzzle at anything you are not willing to destroy" and that includes people wearing a vest. more so if we are on the same team.

For anyone proposing this, please ask yourself if you will be prepared to be the "backstop" or only the shooter, I guess you know what the answer is.

It all goes back to training, to the level where situational awareness of your partners and your position is always in the back of your mind.

Brgds,

Danny

[Rich Miranda]

The officer who was wounded is 41 and has 11 years on the job. The other officer is 40 with 16 years on the job.

If these two officers DID use DTGuy's idea of a human backstop, I guess low man on the totem pole 'catches'. :D

[DT Guy]

Hah, I agree that it's pretty far out there.

OTOH, I was taught a last-ditch disarm that involved locking the weapon pointed at you directly at your trauma plate to prevent it pointing elsewhere. And I suppose that, in just the right circumstance, it could be the best option.

One thing I really believe is that thinking in black and white about situations like these will only end badly. Do I think aiming at my partner's vest is *really* a good idea-no. And I'm guessing my partner would agree. :)

But could it, someday and some way, be the ONLY way of resolving a situation without innocent death? Unlikely, but I can imagine situations (mostly clenches, with a partner getting attacked with a knife) where it may work. And I like to consider unusual solutions to unusual situations, since I've never gotten it in writing that I'll only ever be caught in 'typical' situations.

And for everyone who's sure they know the perfect solution to any situation-good for you! Hope that works out for you-

Larry

[BikerRN]

Larry,

Thank you for posting that clarification. It does a lot to help me to understand where you are coming from.

In some ways, I like the way you are thinking, in that you are thinking "outside the box." The issue I have is with getting shot, or shooting a non-threat. This is a bad idea for many reasons, not the least of which is the litigeous society we live in today.

With respect to Pax and Richard Davis, while he may have believed in his product enough to use the "shoot yourself" method of salesmanship I tend to be a little more cautious than that.

Generally time is in favor of the responding parties, and not that of the hostage taker. So, in that case, why not go way outside the box, and not stop the problem right here, right now. Since it has escalated to a hostage situation why not just pull up the lawnchair and wait him or her out?

Yes, it would suck to be the hostage, but then it sucks to be the hostage at any time. If it appears that the hostage taker is going to harm the hostage, then by all means, use lethal force. As you may be able to guess, I am an advocate of prolonging the situation out, if appropriate, and having everyone come through the situation alive.

Please don't let that desire make you think that I am against shooting a hostage taker. The problem is, once that window of opportunity is gone, it's gone. It may re-appear later, but there are no guarantees that it will. Now it's time to rack up the Overtime.

Biker

[Snakum]

You'd be amazed how quickly someone can cover 5-10 yards and stick you. I'm not going anywhere near someone with a knife, and I'd treat one the same way I'd treat a firearm.

I generally would, too. The only diff would be that if the person with the knife merely held his ground and looked menacing after he pulled it he wouldn't get aerated. One step toward me, however, and that changes.

Then again, with my generally rotten luck he'd be an expert knife thrower escaped from the circus and I'd get aerated because I didn't fire when he pulled the thing. :eek: :D

As far as the shoot in Chitown, I dunno if I'd have taken that one, but I'm glad I didn't have to make that call. I had my share of run-ins with cops as a young hothead/soldier/biker. But now I'm very glad they do what they do and I won't try to second guess them. It's a tough job. Stuff happens.

[WIN71]

And for everyone who's sure they know the perfect solution to any situation-good for you! Hope that works out for you-
Funny thing about solutions. No matter what or where the problem and no matter what legal course of action is taken if the outcome is positive the repercussions are generally negligible. Things start getting cloudy after the situation stabilizes. Monday morning brings hundreds of alternate actions that may have worked. That's hundreds of actions for every past situation. Sometimes good to read, always impossible to memorize.
Most departments have published guidelines regarding use of deadly force. Some departments have general guidelines for specific situations. Even those can be violated if at the instant the action is taken it can be articulated accurately that that was all that could have been done AND it worked.
I'm not sure if all here are aware that in almost all large departments in this country there are usually two separate investigations into officer involved shootings. One is criminal which is self explanatory, the other internal. The old "Oh crap, here come the headhunters“, internal affairs. Lots and lots of the rules of evidence that will apply in the criminal investigation do NOT apply to the administrative investigation. In this state as in probably all states, the administrative investigation cannot be used in criminal court. Why? For several reasons not the least of which is the employee does not have the right to remain silent. It’s a non criminal administrative investigation.
It is in this report that departmental policies, procedures, alternate courses of action, etc. etc. are brought up. The coppers that investigate these types of things don't miss much and although they don't usually recommend any alternate courses of action someone up the ladder may.
The difference between recommended courses of action on the internet and those from the employing department is also obvious. The department knows fairly well what the officer has been taught, what the departmental guidelines are and has first hand information of the situation as it unfolded.
Just one more tidbit. Press releases are provided by departmental employees who have had at least some training. On major events they are most certainly thought out ahead of time and until all criminal investigations are completed the general public will receive a general overview only. Sort of "just the facts mam" but not all of them.
Makes it difficult to draw accurate conclusions.

[markj]

Knives hurt, I got stuck with one in a bar, was working and escorting a guy out the door when his bud stuck me in the back of my neck. It hurt bad. Bled a bit too and that made the floor slick. Glad it turned out for the good is all I can say. Used to have that knife but cant recall where I locked it up...

[Brit]

Working at the Cavern Club in Liverpool UK, 1960 to 1964, full time day job, 3 nights a week Bouncer (young family extra cash) Stabbed on two separate occasions, not fun. First time, small blade into back, second attempt to push home made spike into my sternum, I caught that in right wrist, he suffered a broken eye socket, jaw and cheek bone. Adrenalin is one hell of a hand speed enhancer!

Reference vests and projectiles, saw a frangible 9mm shot at a vest (as a joke!) it was hung on a target holder, in a range. Wee tiny bits of feather like bits floating about? Projectile through both sides! Light weight projectile, hi speed, very polished finish on the bullet.

Hit into steel plate, totally disintegrated the projectile. Which was it's intent, shooting steel.