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lizziedog1
September 7, 2009, 06:47 AM
On another thread I mention my 28 gauge experience. I was dove hunting yesterday and a friend let me take a shot with his. As soon as he handed me the gun, I looked up and saw an incoming bird. I nailed it and it landed a few feet away from us. I really enjoyed shooting it. I know one shot doesn't make for a complete evaluation, so I am posting this thread here.

I have looked at .410 factory loads and compared them to 28 gauge ones. It doesn't seem like the 28 offers much, if any, payload advantage over its smaller cousin. However, the .410 is long skinnny shell, while the 28's hull looks more like a "real" shell.

Here is my question, does the 28 gauge's shape make it that much better then the .410? Does the 28 throw better patterns because of it?

The reason I am asking is that I want to get a small gauge shotgun. I had been wanting a .410 repeater for sometime. But after shooting the 28 yesterday, I am looking at that gauge.

Anyone here have experience with both of these shells?

Bella
September 7, 2009, 07:22 AM
I know this guy that is really big into 28's. He has let me shoot some of his shotguns, I have also thought about getting a 28 gauge shotgun. The only drawback is availibilty and expense of the ammo. He reloads shotshells, I do not.

I talked to him several times about comparing the 28 to the 410. He mentioned somehting about the way the shot sits in the shell. He said that the 410's shot is too long and thus makes a longer shot string pattern.

I am not sure what all this meant, but he swears that the 28 throws better patterns.

johnbt
September 7, 2009, 08:45 AM
The balanced shell load is referred to as a square load - about the same height as width. If the load is too tall the pellets at the rear end get shoved into mass at the front and develop flat spots and curveball off instead of staying in the pattern. There's more to it than this, but the .410 is as famous for being as bad as the 28 is good. You typically get a longer shot string with a .410 and a very short one with the 28 (except maybe with the overloaded 1-ounce loads.)

Here's an article on balanced loads. I'm supposed to be painting the back porch (if it doesn't rain.)

www.sidebysideshotgun.com/articles/balance_loads_article.html

B.L.E.
September 7, 2009, 10:15 AM
The shorter the shot column, the fewer pellets wipe against the barrel and get deformed. That's why a 7/8 ounce load in a 12 gauge tends to shoot a better pattern than a 7/8 ounce load in a 20 gauge.

Yea I know, plastic shot cups are supposed to eliminate that but the pellets on the bottom of the column still get crushed by the force needed to accelerate the pellets on top of the column.

My muzzleloading 8 gauge shoots excellent patterns when loaded with "12 gauge" loads, 1+1/8 ounce shot.

zippy13
September 7, 2009, 11:58 AM
Since it's one of the standard events in registered skeet, NSSA shooters are among the few who intimate with the 28-gauge. Yes, there is a big performance difference between the 28-ga and the .410-bore. It's beyond what one would expect just based upon the load difference. As Johnbt mentioned, it has to due with the square load principle.

The 28-ga is a joy to shoot, especially if you're going to shoot a lot per day -- it kicks like a .410 and hits like a 20. Yes, 28-ga ammo is more expensive -- it's all about supply and demand. If more of you shot the 28, the price would come down. On the other hand, they are easier to reload that the finicky .410s and cost less per round to reload than 20s.

The reason for having different gauge events in skeet competition is to provide a handicap: In trap you move farther back, in skeet you use less shot. The last NSSA 28-ga event I entered, I shot a 100-straight -- I wish I could say the same about the nasty little .410s.

lizziedog1
September 7, 2009, 12:43 PM
The 28-ga is a joy to shoot, especially if you're going to shoot a lot per day -- it kicks like a .410 and hits like a 20. Yes, 28-ga ammo is more expensive -- it's all about supply and demand. If more of you shot the 28, the price would come down. On the other hand, they are easier to reload that the finicky .410s and cost less per round to reload than 20s.


Makes you wonder why the .410 is more popular then the 28 gauge.:confused:

oneounceload
September 7, 2009, 01:33 PM
The 28 is, IMO, the ideal upland gauge for small to medium sized birds. It is as much fun as you can have with your clothes on.......The 28 typically has 50% larger payload than a 410. I have both a semi and an O/U. There isn't a clay target or flying bird out there that the 28 can't perform well on.......

mwar410
September 7, 2009, 02:47 PM
honestly I wouldn't even compare 28 to a .410. The 28 is more like the 20ga. than anything else. I think it even patterns better than the 20. Now the .410 is a whole nother beast.

Waterengineer
September 7, 2009, 03:00 PM
Word (as my daughter would say) In my lingo, What one Oz. said.

zippy13
September 7, 2009, 03:49 PM
The 28-ga is a joy to shoot, especially if you're going to shoot a lot per day -- it kicks like a .410 and hits like a 20. Yes, 28-ga ammo is more expensive -- it's all about supply and demand. If more of you shot the 28, the price would come down. On the other hand, they are easier to reload that the finicky .410s and cost less per round to reload than 20s.
Makes you wonder why the .410 is more popular then the 28 gauge.:confused:Good question, lizziedog1. I think it has to do with a general misconception that has prevailed for several generations. Traditionally, when selecting a first rifle or handgun, many folks have looked to the .22 rimfire. I know, my firsts were both .22s. Many consider a .22 rim fire a safer choice for a youth gun. That same thinking extends to selecting a first shotgun -- they think it's easier and safer learning to shoot with the smallest shotgun ( .410). Consequently, over the years many .410s have accumulated.

Like many families, we have a single shot .410 that once belonged to a distant relative. Long before I got into competitive shooting, I bought .410 shells for shooting rats at the local dump with the ancestral junker. I imagine a lot of .410 ammo sales are for similar situations.

Watch bull's-eye pistol shooters, they shoot their .22s better than their center-fires. So, it makes sense to learn your handgun fundamentals with an "easier to shoot " rim-fire. Now, check out skeet scores, the .410s are well below the others. Does it really make sense to try to learn with the shotgun that's the hardest to shoot?

These days, I typically recommend a new shooter start with a 12-ga gun. If recoil is a problem, there are a wide variety of reduced loads available. After you become proficient with your 12-ga, then you can start thinking about smaller guns. As oneounceload mentioned, the 28-ga is the ideal gun for small upland birds and clay targets. However, he's assuming you already know your way around with a 12-ga.

BigJimP
September 7, 2009, 05:27 PM
Like Zippy, OneOunce and others said - the effective pattern on a 28ga is much better than a .410 - so the 28ga is a lot more versatile in the field. Like many others - I shoot the 28ga a lot better than a .410 ( even though I have identical guns in 20, 28ga and .410 - of the 3, I shoot the 28ga by far the best, with the 20ga a close 2nd - and the .410 a distant 3rd...

I like the 28ga for quail - especially over good dogs ....

olddrum1
September 8, 2009, 12:05 AM
To answer your question, no. The shape of the 28 is not the cause of better patterns than the 410. In a 28 gauge shell your running 3/4 ounce of shot compared to 1/2 ounce in the 410. Your putting a third more shot into that circle with the 28 as compared to the 410. Running your pressure up on your shells and choice of certain shot types causes shot deformation. In this case it has no effect on the patterns in that the shell speed is roughly the same but if you check most reloading manuals, the pressure on a 1/2 ounce 410 load is lesser than that of a 28 gauge in 3/4 ounce. This means more of a deformation in the 28 actually. As Z-13 referred to, the 410 can be humbling at times. The 28 is a little more forgiving.

johnbt
September 8, 2009, 08:47 AM
www.mackspw.com/Item--i-X41S

Here you go, a selection of 3/4-ounce .410 game loads by Winchester. See if you can get them to pattern worth a hoot and get back to us on it.

I'll stick to my 28 and leave the Winchester Model 37 .410 in the safe.

:)

John

roy reali
September 8, 2009, 07:00 PM
the pressure on a 1/2 ounce 410 load is lesser than that of a 28 gauge in 3/4 ounce.

Where on God's green earth did you come up with that?

I just looked up some shotshell reloading on the Hodgdon website. I suggest you do the same and compare the pressure of .410 loads with the pressure of 28 gauge loads.

Here is one example I found.

.410 1/2 ounce load, pressures 9,600 to 12,300 psi.

28 gauge 3/4 ounce load, pressures 9,600 to 12,500 psi.

Big pressure difference, wouldn't you say?:rolleyes:

This means more of a deformation in the 28 actually.

I guess that extra 200 psi will turn those round lead projectiles into malformed disks!

olddrum1
September 8, 2009, 09:45 PM
I am glad you guys corrected me. I got out my Hodgdons book and took a closer look. The Winchester 209 primer load I have been using truly does run 9500 psi for a 1/2 ounce of shot in my 410. On the other hand the 28 gauge load for 3/4 ounce using a Winchester primer and universal hits 10,800 psi. I stand corrected. But really, I was using my 15th edition Winchester manual which pretty much states the same thing. Now if you had read my post carefully and under stood what I had written, I said the the 28 gauge load patterns better because it is throwing a third more shot and had nothing to do with shot deformation. I said that if anything, most of your loads on the 28 gauge run a little more pressure.

olddrum1
September 8, 2009, 10:28 PM
I have to apologize again. There for a minute I thought I was incorrect. I pulled all the 28 gauge, 3/4 lead loads for Winchester aa hulls and the same for 410 in a 1/2 ounce loads and run the numbers on them from the Hodgdons data center. 200 was pretty close. Actually the 410 loads averaged 10,258 and the 28 ran 11,830 psi. Thats a difference of the average 28 running roughly 1612 psi greater than the 410.

roy reali
September 8, 2009, 10:35 PM
Look up 3/4 ounce .410 loads.

olddrum1
September 8, 2009, 11:06 PM
I made the statement that 1/2 ounce 410 has lower pressue on average than 3/4 ounce 28 which it does.

olddrum1
September 8, 2009, 11:10 PM
Quote:
the pressure on a 1/2 ounce 410 load is lesser than that of a 28 gauge in 3/4 ounce.

Where on God's green earth did you come up with that?

I just looked up some shotshell reloading on the Hodgdon website. I suggest you do the same and compare the pressure of .410 loads with the pressure of 28 gauge loads.

Here is one example I found.

.410 1/2 ounce load, pressures 9,600 to 12,300 psi.

28 gauge 3/4 ounce load, pressures 9,600 to 12,500 psi.

Big pressure difference, wouldn't you say?


Quote:
This means more of a deformation in the 28 actually.

I guess that extra 200 psi will turn those round lead projectiles into malformed disks!

Please help me out here. Where does it say anything about 3/4 ounce 410 loadsin your post?

johnbt
September 9, 2009, 03:15 PM
"Now if you had read my post carefully and under stood what I had written, I said the the 28 gauge load patterns better because it is throwing a third more shot and had nothing to do with shot deformation"

I read it carefully, I said I didn't agree with it. A tall stack of pellets causes more deformation to the ones on the bottom layers than a shallower stack does.

I've seen 28 ga. loads pattern better than larger gauge loads containing more shot. It's the same principle that has standard loads in any gauge patterning better than hulls stuffed as full of pellets as they can be.

The English figured it out a century or two ago. That's how come there are such things as standard loads.

John

cottontop
September 9, 2009, 06:56 PM
I'm not sure about the specifics, but I will say that for flying targets such as clays or birds the 28 is awesome. The 410 is the ultimate furry critter gitter.That's just my personal experience, nothing scientific involved.

Kmar40
September 9, 2009, 09:37 PM
Since we're on the topic generally, may I ask why I should consider either the 28g (not really on the menu) or 410 (I have one) instead of a 20g with the light loads? They don't really kick either.

BigJimP
September 9, 2009, 09:39 PM
No reason not to use a 20ga with 3/4 oz loads ( just like a 28ga ) ....

but don't tell my wife ......I convinced her I needed that matched set of O/U's one in 28ga and one in .410 ( to match the same gun I already had in 20ga and in a 12ga ) ......they look real good lined up in the safe .... ( and they were only $ 2,500 each ....they were a steal)...

roy reali
September 9, 2009, 10:25 PM
Since we're on the topic generally, may I ask why I should consider either the 28g (not really on the menu) or 410 (I have one) instead of a 20g with the light loads? They don't really kick either.

Why would anyone with more then three or four guns consider any others? If someone had a rifle in .30-06, a rifle in .22 rimfire, and a 12 gauge shotgun, then for all intent and purposes they have guns to cover 99.9% of hunting situations in the lower 48. Throw in another rifle chambered in some .375 or .416 chambering and unless you visit Jurassic Park all hunting needs have been met.

So why consider a 28 gauge, or a .22-250, or a 17 rimfire, or a 20 gauge, or any other gun? Because we can!;)

Dave McC
September 10, 2009, 09:35 AM
Being a reloader, before I'd get MOST 28 gauges, a good 20 with 3/4 oz handloads would be first choice.

The 28 is awesome, but many run a bit light for ol' behemoth me who is used to 8 lb shotguns.

A friend was absolutely deadly with his H&H 28, but he freely admitted he shot it well only when it was all he shot.

A 6 lb 20 with top quality 3/4 oz loads tweaked to the bore, mission and choke would be the best of both worlds,IMO.

The restocked 870 YE here runs 6 lbs, 2oz. If I had more time and opportunity to upland hunt, it would be the tool of choice.

oneounceload
September 10, 2009, 09:50 AM
A 6lb 28 with top quality loads tweaked to the bore recoils even less, making it even more ideal...... ;)

mpd61
September 10, 2009, 06:29 PM
When you kids are talking about 9,600 psi vs. 10,320 psi aren't you talking about CHAMBER pressure? You know like Locking lugs/receiver/barrel interface?
WTH does that have to do with shot deformation? Ahhh....fill me in
:eek:

mes228
September 10, 2009, 06:51 PM
I've hunted Preserve/Shooting Lodge quail with both 20 gauge and 28 gauge. I've killed quite a few with both (I'm sure over a thousand over the last several years). I can tell no practical difference out to 30 or so yards. That's farther than I shoot quail anyway. I actually think a 28 kills birds "quicker" or "deader" in the air than the 20 gauge (within the 30 yards or so). I think the shot string is quite a bit shorter. I've also hunted with many 16 gauges. I honestly think a 16 gauge is the same way. They kill birds "quicker" and "deader" in the air than any other gauge (caveat is - with the same weight load). In fact I have a scientific paper around here somewhere that says the shot string is so short on the 16 ga. that it takes 1/4 oz. more weight in shot for a 12 gauge to equal it. I think that is true. I currently have a 20 ga. Browning and a 28 Ga. Ruger but am looking hard for another o/u 16 ga. Nothing kills birds better. At least for me. The short shot string increases the number of shot impacting the bird at absolutely the same time. It does make a difference in clean, dead in the air, birds.

Kmar40
September 10, 2009, 08:19 PM
So why consider a 28 gauge, or a .22-250, or a 17 rimfire, or a 20 gauge, or any other gun? Because we can!Right on.

If you want it.... ahem..... NEED it, you need it. I was just surprised at the recoil the 410 had (in a very lightweight Rossi S/S). It wasn't rough by any means-- I use 12 magnum slugs pretty often-- but it was more than I expected. It's too much for my preteen girl and boy. I'm also quite the cheapskate and the 410 shells are many times more expensive than 20 g. Can't think of the last time I saw 28g shells. I'm sure they are even more expensive. If I had it over, that 410/22 Rossi would be a 20/22.

I realize that the double barrel 28g world is something different than than the beer and pretzel world in which I live. :) You can take boy out of the hills but you can't take the hillbilly out of the boy. Pass the vienna sausage and the pork rinds.

Maybe I should try some bird hunting, though. You guys won't make fun of me, will you?

tandom
September 11, 2009, 09:14 PM
i believe the old vp dick chaney can give you some insight on the 28 guage?

roy reali
September 12, 2009, 10:54 AM
I live in a very rural area. Granted, I have to drive a couple of hours to find anything, but finding 28 gauge shells is not a problem. They ususally run about ten to fifteen dollars. Sure, a bit more then standard gauge ammo, but reasonable none the less.

SeekHer
September 13, 2009, 11:43 AM
I have found little difference in the price between .410 gauge and 28 bore cartridges, or 16 bore for that matter...Of course far more expensive then 12 or 20 bore shells but then there are so many more of them...

I started my first batch of daughters (4) on the .410, like I was taught, my brother and sisters, uncles and aunts were taught because that's the way its been done...No recoil to speak of to scare the child, induce flinching and in a single shot, exposed hammer model, light to carry and with a visible safety (hammer) so gun handling/safety could be stressed...

The problem is that we missed, a lot and that builds frustration, which breeds dislike, which means the children didn't want to shoot anymore...luckily I had a 20 bore handy and started them on that (after learning the basics), their scores improved, frustration decreased and they wanted to come out to the range with me to go shooting...Now all are in their late 30s and all still shoot competitive clays (one was an Olympic tryout) and hunt...

My second batch of daughters (6) I started on the 28 bore SxS that I had gotten and the felt recoil is almost the same (heavier gun) which is negligible, but with about 3 times the same size pellets as the .410 hits were far more common, thusly less frustration and I then didn't have to force the girls to come out shooting...After just three days, they would be shooting as well as their older siblings when they switched to the 20 bore...

There is a reason the call the .410 The Experts Gun...in these strings posted from the Skeet championships shows:
Longest continuous string in competition
American Skeet Assoc. Records
Bore...Men....Woman
12….... 2462….... 1183
20….... 2173…..... 801
28….... 1718…..... 443
410….... 777…..... 265
Dbls…... 710…..... 259

Information Sites to specific bores/gauges

16 Gauge Society (http://www.16ga.com/)
410 Shotgun Resources (http://www.4-10.co.uk/)

I love the 28 bore (almost, but not quite my love for the glorious 16 bore), I have SxS, O/U, single shot and semi auto guns in it...It is the perfect dove/pigeon gun, excellent for grouse/quail and more then adequate for pheasants but I still use a 20 (switching over slowly) and I've taken ducks over decoys with it...It is the ideal gun to take to Argentina et al for those dove shoots where they supply you with 3,500 shells for 4 days of shooting and they don't expect any back...My Franchi AL48D semi is so soft shooting that if it didn't go bang, you'd not know it fired...

For the added expense of a couple of dollars a box of shells against 12 bore shells, I rather shoot something softer, my 28, and not have to punish these old bones as much and it isn't as if I'm going through dozens of boxes a weekend dove shooting, like I used to before!

For the popularity of the .410 I believe has to do more that it's been around for so long and so many people have started on it and of course there are hundreds of thousands gun already produce in that gauge whereas the 28 bore is a relative newcomer to the scene and wasn't readily available in cheap, single shot shotguns...Price of shells really wasn't an issue--both were expensive but availability and of course shot/dram selection was which of course the .410 won out on...You could into any hardware, general store out in the country and you'd find 12 and .410 and maybe some 20...back when I was a kid it was 12, 16 and 410 and hardly ever any 20s...

Today I try to hunt exclusively with the 16 and 28 bores and compete with the 12 and it's been working out fine...I'm at the point where I'd sell off all of my 20s and .410s -- except for the All Gauge sets...