PDA

View Full Version : Mosin or Mauser?


7jinxed7
September 5, 2009, 09:46 PM
I've considered buying a WW2 bolt action rifle.I've been looking at Mosin Nagants and Mausers.The Mausers were a Yugo I haven't seen any Germans yet.Which is better choice?I like the feel of the bolt on the Mauser much better compared to the Mosin.I have never fired either.I'm considering ammo cost,accuracy and availability of accessories.The Mosin seems to be the cheaper but I would like input from someone who owns these rifles.

Ignition Override
September 5, 2009, 09:55 PM
As for ammo prices, you can't beat 7.62x54R prices.
I've seen very few people offering to sell 8mm ammo at similar prices, and maybe a modest amount on any website (and it won't last long, at all).

Have only owned two Mosin Nagant 44s, but no Mausers.

7jinxed7
September 5, 2009, 10:00 PM
How was accuracy on your Mosins?The 44 is the shorter carbine correct.

gawoodsman
September 5, 2009, 10:04 PM
i have hunted deer with a m44 mosin with just the iron sights and it shoots sraight. heavy though. those rifles are built to last. and the ammo is cheap. the mauser has a much better feel to it and it does cycle smoothly. i own a couple of each and i think it would come down to whichever one you prefer as the ammo is about the same price. you can't go wrong with either.

raftman
September 5, 2009, 11:07 PM
I've got a Mosin M44, but have fired the 91/30 as well, and a Yugo Mauser. Assuming similar condition, the Mauser will be more expensive to buy, and more expensive to shoot. But the Mauser's definitely still worthwhile. You really wouldn't be making a bad choice if you buy either one, so maybe you should get both.

7jinxed7
September 6, 2009, 12:41 AM
Anybody know if their is a real difference in the German and Yugo Mausers?

l.cutler
September 6, 2009, 05:12 AM
If you are looking for a WWII rifle, I believe most if not all of the Yugoslavian Mausers are post war. Others more knowledgable will chime in.

ksstargazer
September 6, 2009, 07:38 AM
The M48 Yugo mausers are intermediate length actions. The bolt parts are not compatible with the standard 98 Mauser.
There are Yugo mausers that are refurbished German mausers.
Both the standard mauser and Soviet mosin are 3-4 MOA rifles. There are some very accurate mausers - Czech M98/22, Swedish mausers of all models, as well as some standard German mausers that happen to be very accurate.
You can also find some consistently very accurate mosins such as the Finnish models and the carbine M91/59. With the Soviet mosins, it is a gamble as to whether they will be more accurate than 3-4 MOA.
When it comes to ammo, the mosin has an advantage as the ammo is still readily available at about 20 cents per round. 8mm is becoming more difficult to find - you can still find Romanian at about 30 -35 cents a round.

7jinxed7
September 6, 2009, 07:42 AM
Good info ksstargazer. That gives me a good idea what to look for.

CGSteve8718
September 6, 2009, 08:37 AM
I strongly suggest looking for a Finnish Mosin Nagant. Same action, same design, same ammo, only beefed up and improved. They should also fill the collector aspect of your search, as you can find many that are WW2 era.

Basically, an excerpt I read somewhere puts it like this, the Finns took the Mosin Nagant, a conscript rifle, and turned it into a rifleman's rifle.

Another WW2 bolt action rifle that is really smooth and accurate are the various Enfield rifles. They are designated by types, which is an entire book of info in itself, but some quick research will let you know which types were most prevalent during the war.

Like the one poster mentioned, there are Yugo refurbed K98k rifles, but the ones that you've seen are probably post war M48s. However, nothing wrong with the K98k except for ammo consideration. In a way, you'd still be getting a "Russian" rifle, as in you'll most likely be getting a Russian capture K98k if you decide on that. The Mosin Nagants did their part, but any Mauser action/rifle would be smoother and far better produced with manufacturing and attention to detail than the Mosin Nagants. Oversight on detail of manufacturing was eventually thrown out due to wartime necessity, but I'd bet a "last ditch" K98k is made with more care than any 91/30, M38, or M44 ever was. However, the Russians would probably look at that as a compliment of the highest degree.

If money is a concern for the rifle itself, then I say the Russian Mosin Nagants are your best bet as they are still relatively cheap. A German Mauser K98k, even a Russian capture will go for at least $100 or close to $200 more simply because German/Nazi militaria is, and was much more popular and in higher demand than any Soviet/Russian or combloc stuff.

7jinxed7
September 6, 2009, 11:51 AM
I would love to get a German Mauser for $100.00 to $200.00. I haven't seen any that cheap though. I'm not really getting one for collecting and value but more for shooting.So if wasn't actually used in WW2 it's not a big deal although it would be a added bonus if I did find one cheap.If I get one close to those years would be fine.I saw Mosins at the gunshow this morning but no good prices.They were 91/30 round barrel none MO markings for $130.00 from what I've read thats a little steep.

gyvel
September 6, 2009, 12:18 PM
I like them both, but quite frankly, I think I would go with the Mauser

simonkenton
September 6, 2009, 01:44 PM
The Finnish M39 Mosin Nagant is a beautiful rifle, very accurate.
You won't get a good one for $130, however.

Mosin ammo is lots cheaper.
I went up to a dealer in Johnson City Tennessee four years ago, bought a case of 700 rounds of Turkish 8mm ammo for $32.
The guy told me the stuff came in crates so big they had to unload 'em with a forklift, weighed over a thousand pounds.
He still had two unopened crates in the back.
The happy days of cheap 8mm ammo are gone.

Tom2
September 6, 2009, 04:44 PM
I would go with the full length Mosin unless you have some real purpose to get a shorter one, as in collecting or in addition to the long rifle. The long rifle will be more pleasant to shoot. They can be as accurate as a 98 Mauser, in general. With ammo it likes and after you tweek the front sight for windage, if needed. With all surplus guns with basic sights like that, you are rolling the dice. Some will shoot way high at 100 yards, they were often designed to engage an enemy at much longer distances. Some will do fine. A Mosin I have is right on target at 100 yards with the sight set lowest if I am using the light ball ammo. Ditto for a SMLE rifle and a Japanese 99, they all shoot on target with a 6 o clock hold at 100 yards and the ammo I have for them. The Mosins are regulated with the bayonet on the barrel, so you will have to probably adjust the windage if you shoot without that! The MN is obviously a more primitive design than the Mauser, it is sort of an evolution of some earlier designs as well as late 19th century stuff as it was adopted in 1891. The 98 Mauser has the advantage of rapid state of the art changes before it was designed. But even the earlier Mauser models were superior in design to the Russian. Still the Russian is fully refined as far as the design can be and unless the workmanship is lacking it will certainly perform as designed even under adverse conditions. And since they cannot be nicely sporterised like the Mausers, they are cheaper on price and ammo. Just to use it to sling lead at the range, it is not a problem if the safety is whack or the mag protrudes down or the bolt handle sticks out straight.

SigP6Carry
September 6, 2009, 05:09 PM
I honestly think that you should consider what each gun is, what the cost is and what you're more interested in getting the gun for. I'm getting my 91/30 on tuesday, and I'm happy as hell to be getting it for many reasons. I'd personally prefer the 91/30 over a K98 because I felt that the Russian weapons of WWII were much more interesting than those of the Wehrmacht and that the plight of the Russian people was far more interesting than the failure of the Wehrmacht. I also find the lower price and cheaper ammo more beneficial to myself.

Now, I would MUCH rather get a Springfield 1903 myself, but the cost of the rifle surpasses my preference (and financial means). I basically compromised with the 91/30.

If you have the disposable income, it's entirely up to you about which rifle you're more inclined to get. The ammo for each is fairly easy to get (I have two local stores stocking non-corrosive and surplus ammo within 10 miles of me for both!) I'm not gonna sit here and tell you "get the 91/30 cause that's what I got!" But I'm gonna sit here and tell you what I prefer and why and see if that helps you make your decision.

As for "accuracy" and "quality" the MNs and Mausers (and copies) can all be accurized, but there's no "this rifle is more accurate" end all statement. And quality of each rifle depends on several factors. If you get war-time Mausers, their milling is lower quality than pre-war Mausers. If you get weapons built in certain amories, they're supposedly lower quality than others. And the next issue is: how well was the rifle maintained. If you get a "higher qaulity pre-war Mauser" that's been used and abused and has a blacked out barrel, the "lower quality war-time MN" that's better maintained is going to be a better rifle.

There's more to this decision than just "this or that" and there's lots of questions you have to ask yourself about it. Good luck, and I hope you find the perfect rifle for you.

mp25ds4
September 6, 2009, 05:17 PM
I have 2 mosins and I just bought a yugo mauser off of gunbroker for 157.00 I think that mausers are better built rifles, 7.62x54r is some of the cheapest ammo out there besides .22lr, 8mm surplus ammo isnt too bad, its still alot cheaper than .303 brit tho, You could get a mauser off of jgsales.com for 150.
German mausers are pretty expensive so if your looking to save money I would go for a mosin or yugo mauser

7jinxed7
September 6, 2009, 05:46 PM
Wow I didn't realize their were so many Mosin lovers out there.I noticed that no one has any real complaints about either the Mosin or Mauser.I guess I'll decide when I find a good deal on one or the other.I have considered the Yugo Mausers for the simple reason they are cheaper and easier to obtain vs. the German.I hoping to get one or the other in the coming months if not maybe I can talk the wife into getting one for Christmas.:D I have to convince her that I need another rifle though.

3StrikesNC
September 6, 2009, 07:43 PM
i have a M44 Mosin, love the carbines!

Also currently 'looking" at a Mauser.

Can't have one without the other .....

simonkenton
September 6, 2009, 08:32 PM
The Mosin Nagant is an ugly rifle. The mag extends below the stock, they are just kind of awkward compared to the elegant Mauser.
The Mosin Nagant safety is just weird, almost unworkable compared to the elegant Mauser safety.

Nevertheless, the Mosin Nagant is a great rifle with a great history. They are rugged and reliable. If you get the right 91/30, or Finnish M39, it will be as accurate as any Mauser, or more so.

The Finnish Mosins are really cool. The Finns captured many thousands of Russian Mosin Nagants during WW1.
They knew they would be mixing it up with the Russkies again, so between the wars they reworked their captured guns. There are 5 or 6 versions of Finnish Mosins, but for the M39 they used the Russian receiver, and put a completely new stock on it. They used barrels from Finnish firms, Sako or Valmet. They made new sights. The Finnish Mosins are the only Mosin Nagants with screw adjustable front sights.
The M39 had to shoot a 3cm, or slightly over 1 inch group, at 100 meters, or it could not leave the factory.
The Finns were right, they mixed it up big time with the Russians in WW2, and Finns shot and killed hundreds of thousands of Russian soldiers with their highly accurate and reliable Mosin Nagants.
Better still, when Finnish ski troops captured a Russian ammo convoy, they could shoot Russians with captured Russian ammo!
With virtually no air force or armor, the Finns fought the Russian giant to a standstill in World War 2, on the strength of the Finnish Mosin Nagant.

Tom2
September 6, 2009, 09:05 PM
Yes the Finns are certainly historical and more desireable, maybe the only holy grail of the Mosins is the US made ones under contract that were probably easily the finest of the breed for quality, but those are unobtainium for the most part and the time to get a bargain on the Finn imports is long gone. The US made ones were sold for truly peanuts in the prewar years for NRA members and alot of them were made into bargain basement sporting guns but the survival rate seems rather miniscule except for some Russian imports recently, that are ones that were actually delivered to the Russians before the revolution(and usually reworks). This 43 vintage one I have is about as crudely finished as you will find on a military gun but works real good. I got another but have not had a chance to fire it yet. All it has different is a much nicer stock of what looks like bare wood or oil finished with all the sharp edges intact and not sanded. Watch the recoil on that small little steel buttplate and clean the bore as the surp. ammo is corrosive but other than that it goes bang and can be cheap fun.

Ignition Override
September 6, 2009, 10:03 PM
7:
A friend who is a sharpshooter (retired from a military rifle team) tried one of my MN 44s from 50 yards, using his small sand bags. The bore is fairly shiny but not bright. This guy has won some AR matches from 200 and 600 yards with iron sights.

He had such a large group from his sandbags on the black plastic target (yellow holes) that he never found where two of the rounds even went. From 50 yards.
Let me emphasize that the Heavy Ball (HB) Bulgarian is supposed to make really large groups with many MN 44s.
Can't tell you about the 44 with other Bulgarian or Czech, Polish ammo etc.

Tomh
September 7, 2009, 01:24 PM
I have an M91/30, and from a standing position, have no trouble hitting an 8x10 target at 100 yds. It's a 1937 model from the Ishevsk arsenal. I am just fascinated with the history of the rifle, and what, and where, it may have been. The fact that it is accurate, and comfortable to shoot, is just icing on the cake. The M44's have a really monsterous muzzle blast, which I find very cool, but others may find objectionable. I love the Mausers too, and am currently looking for a German model. I guess what I'm trying to say is, they are all good, and the history of whatever rifle you choose, is an added bonus. Handle a few, fire em, and go from there, you cant go wrong either way.

ISC
September 7, 2009, 08:50 PM
US made mosins aren't that hard to find. Finding one in original configuration in good shape is quite hard though.

Mosins were also made in France and Belgium prior to WWI. Those are extremely rare.

Finns are easily the best made mosins. I just ordered a Valmet M39 for $219.

ISC
September 7, 2009, 09:30 PM
double post

Erfurter1937
September 8, 2009, 10:43 PM
I believe the 8mm Mauser is a round with a great track record and the ammo is still pretty cheap. If you want to shoot long distance, 8mm and 30-06 are really good for that.

simonkenton
September 9, 2009, 10:23 AM
A friend who is a sharpshooter (retired from a military rifle team) tried one of my MN 44s from 50 yards, using his small sand bags. The bore is fairly shiny but not bright. This guy has won some AR matches from 200 and 600 yards with iron sights.

He had such a large group from his sandbags on the black plastic target (yellow holes) that he never found where two of the rounds even went. From 50 yards.


Even for an M44 that is horrible accuracy. Did he have the bayonet extended.?
Even still, there is no comparison between the M44 and the Finnish M39.
Like comparing an air cooled VW van to a turbocharged Porsche.

7jinxed7
September 9, 2009, 08:59 PM
I looked into a few Swiss Mausers,German and Yugos. The swiss K31 uses a different caliber 7.5x55 if I remember right. The German and Yugo uses the 8mmx57.I'm leanin' for the Yugo due to cost. The Germans seem to be in worse shape for more money. I've also noticed some have straight bolt levers and some are slanted. Why the difference?

.300 Weatherby Mag
September 9, 2009, 09:13 PM
If you can find a Mosin made by Remington or Westinghouse I would grab it... Or if you come across a Finn buy that as well... My Remington built mosin will produce groups right at MOA off a rest, with me have a very good day... Its will shoot 2 MOA without issue... Mine prefers the wolf 148 gr FMJs... I do not shoot milsurp in mine...

Ignition Override
September 10, 2009, 02:06 AM
simonkenton:
Yes, the bayonet was extended. I sold that laminated rifle in July for the original price ($130).

Ironically, I took my other MN 44 to the range today with about 20 rds. of HB Bulgarian yellow-tip and 20 rds. of Russian (LB?).
With the bayo extended, the group was really large and right of the bulls eye with the Bulgarian from 50 yards, but folded, the next group was much better. By some miracle, two of those shots made one 'large' hole in the bulls eye (fluke). Almost as good as my LE #4 group (also a bright bore/rifling).

The group with the copper-washed Russian ammo, bayo folded was worse, but still a bit better than what Mike did with the other 44 (Bulg. HB). These 44s are strange animals. Some claim that bores can be different sizes.

jsmaye
September 10, 2009, 07:41 AM
I looked into a few Swiss Mausers,German and Yugos. The swiss K31 uses a different caliber 7.5x55 if I remember right. The German and Yugo uses the 8mmx57.I'm leanin' for the Yugo due to cost. The Germans seem to be in worse shape for more money. I've also noticed some have straight bolt levers and some are slanted. Why the difference?

If the K31s are in your budget, then they are the way to go. You get Swiss quality, Swiss care, and the fact that, since the Swiss never went to war, the bores are going to be in much better shape than the Mausers and Mosins. The GP11 ammo is all match grade, and will cost a little more, too. All-in-all, it's a target-grade rifle disguised as a military surplus. Plus the straight-pull bolt is a bit of a novelty.

simonkenton
September 10, 2009, 08:30 AM
Yeah that M44 is a strange beast, the Commies figured, if Ivan couldn't shoot the charging Krauts, he could use the bayonet!

They do make great photos, using a time exposure on a nighttime shot.
What a fireball!

Ignition Override
September 17, 2009, 02:16 AM
Yes.
Actually, my LE #4 is a good bit better, and you should see it in the hands of a friend who is a marksman.

His only shot at 100 yards with the iron sights after a few practice from 50:
he was in a kneeling position using just his hands-the only shot from 100 yards went right in the bulls eye. Mike had never used an LE, at least not for many years.

But with the bayo folded, the 44 surprised me, and I'm untrained at any shooting. Embarassing, especially for my older age.

rocinante
September 27, 2009, 06:00 PM
I have a mn 91/30 and a yugo 24/47. I had a turkish mauser too.

The MN action after a few rounds gets very sticky and difficult to open after a few round. Might be the lacquer on the rounds but it is not much fun. The yugo was a lot smoother but exhibited some of the same behavior. Now its bolt is blued and it might smooth out in time. The turk was dreamy and its action always silky and compliant.

They all kick big time and I shoot so poorly I can't testify to accuracy. All in all I like the mauser and just bought some german AP ammo for 21 cents a round. You can get 50s yugo and romanian all day long around 25 a round. I got some yugo m75 for about 35 a round still sealed in the spam can. Not much more than shooting the MN

All in all the mausers are better quality guns. I believe my yugo is originally an FN.

Chris_B
September 27, 2009, 07:30 PM
Looking at WWII bolt action rifles?

Ever consider a 1903 or a 1903A3? Great rifles, Mauser action. Classic andgood performing cartridge, parts are still all over. I've even seen some NOS USGI C stocks lately

simonkenton
September 27, 2009, 07:33 PM
Rocinante, I give you five gold stars for the user name.
Don Quixote's horse, pretty good.