Stranger slaps 2-year-old at Wal-Mart

[kazanski612]

Sorry if this is on the wrong board. Not sure where to post it. I'd guess the right answer is "never draw on someone in this situation" but if it were my kid, it would be hard not to.

The good news from the story is no one was shot (always a good day). I'm curious about the reactions from this crowd.

http://www.kdvr.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-us-stranger-slaps-toddler,0,2324184.story (with mugshot awesomeness)

Police: Stranger warns mom about crying child, then slaps 2-year-old at Atlanta-area Walmart
By Associated Press
7:19 PM MDT, September 2, 2009


This undated booking photo provided Wednesday, Sept. 2, 2009 by the Gwinnett County Sheriff in Stone Mountain, Ga. shows Roger Stephens. Police say a 61-year-old man annoyed with a crying 2-year-old girl at a Wal-Mart slapped the toddler in the face several times. (AP Photo/Gwinnett County Sheriff) (AP / September 2, 2009)

STONE MOUNTAIN, Ga. (AP) — Police say a 61-year-old man annoyed with a crying 2-year-old girl at a suburban Atlanta Walmart slapped the child several times after warning the toddler's mother to keep her quiet.

A police report says after the stranger hit the girl at least four times, he said: "See, I told you I would shut her up."

Roger Stephens of Stone Mountain is charged with felony cruelty to children. It was unclear if he had an attorney and a telephone call to his home Wednesday was unanswered.

Authorities say the girl and her mother were shopping Monday when the toddler began crying. The police report says Stephens approached the mother and said, "If you don't shut that baby up, I will shut her up for you."

Authorities say Stephens then grabbed the 2-year-old and slapped her. The child began screaming and Stephens was arrested. Police say an examination showed the girl's face was slightly red.

A call to the girl's mother, identified in the police report as Sonya Mathews of Grayson, was answered by a woman who identified herself as Sabrina Mathis, the victim's aunt.

Mathis said Wednesday that the girl is doing fine.

"As of today, she has really forgotten about it," Mathis said. "She's been playing."

Mathis said the girl's mother was shaken up over the incident.

"She's as well as to be expected," Mathis said. "Right now she's just trying to calm down."

[azredhawk44]

Not something to train for. Not something requiring tactics.

Not even something to "attaboy" each other about, like a gangbanger getting shot while breaking in to someone's house.

Anyone who draws over this needs to get the amp-rating on their fuses increased.

[hogdogs]

First off this is not a chest thumping reply....

If a stranger so much as touches my child without permission.... It is ON... That is if momma sees it! She would utilize the heaviest glass encased item at her disposal and gladly pay for it! Unlike mrs.hogdogs I would render a beat down and be done with it... She would likely go away for a while if the jury doens't see it as self defense as she ABSOLUTELY AND POSITIVELY WOULD NOT STOP!!!! When it comes/came to her offspring, she is "murderous" and only a bullet could stop her!
Brent

[rantingredneck]

Not really T&T material, IMO.

But I agree with Brent.

[koolminx]

I second your second... Myself and or my wife would have beat the berjeezus out of the old man!

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I think it is a legit scenario. It happened and occupies a weird place in the force continuum debates.

My wife would have been all over this guy, physically. However, I will opine that slapping a young child of that age with unknown force is a potential threat of grievous bodily harm and with caution, lethal force is justified.

Flame me - but young heads and brains are delicate.

Also, if he grabs the child - you have no idea of he is going to drop the kid or what.

Obviously, extreme caution is needed in the application of force but this can be justified, IMHO, for a maximum response.

The guy also needs a mental status workup. Could be hints of early dementia leading to lack of impulse control. I've seen old folks do crazy crap. Saw an old guy who wanted to buy a greeting card. He wouldn't get on the end of the line in the drug store but insisted he go first. Told no, he threw the card on the floor and started stomping it.

[ZeSpectre]

I don't have any kids of my own but one time a stranger in a store grabbed my young (at the time 5years old) nephew by the arm and gave him a shake over something.

Later, when I was calmed down, I was astounded at the ferocity of my response towards the man because I was RIGHT in his face before I really even considered what was going on.

I guess I'm saying that it might seem over the top, but I understand.

[Maromero]

"If you don't shut that baby up, I will shut her up for you."

It should have ended right there with a ... if you touch my child I kill you.

[xjmox14x]

No need for a gun...

A simple, "If you slap my child, I'll slap you...only a lot harder."

He hits her? Beat the living hell out of the guy and spit on his body as you walk by and go on about your day.

[tyrajam]

As soon as this wacko started spouting off about shut that kid up or I'll shut him up for you, it is time to IMMEDIATELY get between him and my child, and head the other direction. There is a difference between being a pacifist and avoiding a confrontation. I'm sure I would have also added that if you touch my kid I will f-ing kill you. Now once he actually hit the child, things change. If someone feels like a hard kick or a cold-cock is in order, go for it, but I would never engage in a fist fight while I am carrying, to much opportunity to lose my weapon. If you draw after your child was hit, I don't see how that could be wrong. But again, I would try to avoid a confrontation with this crazy guy. Just because I carry doesn't mean drawing is the appropriate response to any insult or perceived threat. Remember, if your only weapon is a hamer, every problem looks like a nail.;)

[Maromero]

Remember, if your only weapon is a hamer, every problem looks like a nail.

LMAO

so true.

[comn-cents]

Avoidance is absolutely the first step. But that didn't happen here. I don't think I would draw down on a 61 year old with my child so close but I for sure would throw down. I think if you touch family or friends I'll touch you back.

[2amencw]

I have told my children who are a little older to tell anyone that attacks them that they will pray for them......cause when my Mom and Dad get you your gonna be dead. I believe it is long overdue for parents in this country to make a stand as a social group and say if you hurt our babaies there is a SEVERE consequence. No exceptions. On the T& T side if you are in that situation get between the child and the attacker first and then envelope and protect the child with your body. We as adults can take a great deal more of a beating to head and torso. If you have other kids teach them how to protect each other and call for help. One of my boys got a little too aggressive during a practice and put me on the ground with a double ear slap and simultaneous knee/groin strike. He was only seven. Kinda a humbling experience for a Marine. A few years ago there was a 7y/o girl attacked and sexually assaulted outside of a hotel in our town. Here brother dumped hot coffee on the attacker and made several good kicks to the head, while the girl scratched the bejeebers out of the attacker's face. The two children successfully repelled the attacked in less than a minute. I think someone else mentioned this mindset. When the babies are attacked anyone should become like a momma bear and protect them without mercy. Try to find a defensive instructor who can integrate family defense both armed and unarmed into their curriculum. Some martial arts program are very family oriented and would do well to build a program like this.

[curt.45]

crying children at walmart? say it ain't soooooo!

I would not have beat the man but I would not have let him touch my child either.

[Vanya]

I will opine that slapping a young child of that age with unknown force is a potential threat of grievous bodily harm and with caution, lethal force is justified.

Flame me - but young heads and brains are delicate.
I think Glenn is correct about this. Shaking a baby, or slapping her repeatedly, could kill her or result in permanent brain damage.

However: as much as the idea of someone harming a child brings out our most protective instincts, and a whole lot of (justified) anger, it's worth keeping in mind that the goal of using force, lethal or otherwise, is to stop the threat. It's not to punish the guy for laying hands on the baby, or to "teach him a lesson" -- it's to make him stop. It's hard to imagine that this would require lethal force, but it's conceivable, I guess... but the force, lethal or otherwise, has to stop when the threat to the child does.

Beat the living hell out of the guy and spit on his body as you walk by and go on about your day.

Myself and or my wife would have beat the berjeezus out of the old man!
No. Tell him forcefully to stop, and if he doesn't, do what you have to do to make him stop, then call the cops. Apart from anything else, beating some geezer into the ground, even out of righteous anger, will just get you charged with assault as well.

[Mr. James]

Interesting scenario, and I agree with Mr. Meyers that an evaluation may be in order here.

If someone threatened to administer corporal punishment to my child, he would be heatedly advised to reconsider, while me and kiddo beat feat away from him. I have no desire to roll around amongst the racks of Osh Kosh outfits with anyone, old or not, and I have no real idea of the fellow's intentions or capabilities. If I can pull the child to safety without grappling with the lunatic, all's the better. (Plus, who's looking after your child while you're going mano-a-mano with a madman?)

If someone actually laid hands on my two-year-old, all bets are off, and I wouldn't much care who went to jail - the response would be both visceral and robust.

[porkskin]

My boys are about this age and all i could think was i would go temporarily insane with rage if someone did that to one of them

[Father Time]

I have personaly seen child abuse cases (do to my job) and It makes me sick to my stomach to see a child in distress. If I was standing there next to the man and child I would have told him that "you won't touch this child because I will stop you if you try". Old training would be applied here, I think a joint lock would restrain the man untill police arrive.

[Kyo]

i think its just old guy thinking that the old school times are around trying to push his views on others. I am in the same mindset of "what the hell you think you doin touchin my kid?!?!?"
kids cry. my tactic is to move away from the loud ones.
stone mountain isn't that far from me, im just surprised that some old guy would do this to a kid...

[xjmox14x]

Interestingly enough, I saw this on another forum...
Just to stir the pot a little...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5UzvO2piNo

[Wishoot]

Personally, I would get much more satisfaction out of beating this jerk to a pulp with my bare hands. Anyone lays a finger on my kids will be lucky to wake from a coma.

[Sixer]

If someone actually laid hands on my two-year-old, all bets are off, and I wouldn't much care who went to jail - the response would be both visceral and robust.

INDEED.

[Sparks2112]

My wife would have been all over this guy, physically. However, I will opine that slapping a young child of that age with unknown force is a potential threat of grievous bodily harm and with caution, lethal force is justified.

Flame me - but young heads and brains are delicate.

Also, if he grabs the child - you have no idea of he is going to drop the kid or what.

Obviously, extreme caution is needed in the application of force but this can be justified, IMHO, for a maximum response.


I actually had this conversation with a co-worker. I agree, I know how delicate my youngin' is. I think I very calmly and rationally would have shot the old man if I somehow allowed him close enough to start a physical altercation with my child.

I can't imagine my SA being that lax to allow something like that, but I guess stuff happens.

I don't know about anyone else but I know personally I would have had no problem articulating why I felt the life of my child was being threatened at that point. Couple that with a VERY friendly towards self defense prosecutor (which we have here) and I think I would have been fine.

[mnshortdraw]

I am in agreement with some of the above posts. If someone slapped my two year old, they are going to get slapped back relative to their size. A 60 year old man is going to have a numb face until the police show up to haul him off. You don't get physical with a 2 year old. Not yours, not mine!!

[Skans]

You don't use a gun on someone who slaps a child - even your child.

Come on, this is Walmart!!!! What do you expect at Walmart? Take a look at this: http://peopleofwalmart.com/

[bababooey32]

It's hard to imagine that this would require lethal force,

Here in Texas, lethal force is justified in preventing an attack on a third person if:

2) a reasonable person in the actor's situation
would not have retreated; and
(3) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the
deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to protect himself [or others] against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force;

There is also the concept that one may use lethal force in a scenario if the use of non-lethal force presents an unreasonable threat of injury to the actor. In other words, I can use my gun if trying to punch you could reasonably lead to my getingg my a$$ kicked (assuming I would be justified in punching you in the first place).

In any case, in this scenario, the correct responses are (in order of appearance):

1) Step between threat and child
2) Retreat
3) 911
4) If threat continues, draw and continue retreat.

IMHO

[zukiphile]

However: as much as the idea of someone harming a child brings out our most protective instincts, and a whole lot of (justified) anger, it's worth keeping in mind that the goal of using force, lethal or otherwise, is to stop the threat. It's not to punish the guy for laying hands on the baby, or to "teach him a lesson" -- it's to make him stop. It's hard to imagine that this would require lethal force, but it's conceivable, I guess... but the force, lethal or otherwise, has to stop when the threat to the child does.


I believe you are 100% correct in this. The issue becomes when you reasonably assess the threat to have stopped.

Were I a juror and you a defendant, and you explained that you didn't think it prudent to stop short of physically disabling the man by breaking both his arms or deranging at least one joint in each arm, I would have no problem finding your act purely defensive.

[tyrajam]

What do you expect at Walmart? Take a look at this: http://peopleofwalmart.com/

Thanks a lot, do you realize how much time I'm wasting on that site, yet I can't look away...

[spacemanspiff]

I don't have kids of my own, but my girlfriend has three, and there have been several instances where both her and I have seen strangers start to do something shady, or their behavior just has our spidey senses all going wacko, I have been ready to draw down more than once, sometimes at adults, sometimes at teenagers that possibly had mental problems.


Now, suppose the danger comes from someone that isnt a stranger?
I was at home one day, my niece was only about 2 or so, so thats like 14 years ago I think? My mother was babysitting her, and one of her friends was visiting, and brought along one of her grandchildren, he must have been 8 at least.
The kids are playing in one of the bedrooms, and I hear my niece saying "ow!" so I take a look and this 8 yr old is pinching my niece just for fun. I picked her up and told him if he ever touched her again I'd break both his arms. He sneers "I'm telling my Gramma!"
"Yeah, that won't stop me from doing it".

That 8 year old eventually was caught with another boy his age molesting his own sister.

[TailGator]

I am a little surprised the moderator left this open, but since it is . . .

I don't think any words of warning are necessary. No reasonable person can think that it is OK to slap someone else's child around. First step is physical restraint to keep him from harming the child any further. By that I mean pushing or pulling the man away from the child first. If it is escalated by the assailant after that, I will respond appropriately to whatever force he employs.

But 911 will be called and criminal charges WILL BE FILED by me. (Someone apparently did in this incident, and good on them.) The incident that occurred is assault and battery, with other charges like child endangerment thrown in depending on the jurisdiction. And I don't care if it is my child, my grandchild, or someone I have never seen before in my life. Kids are precious and sacred and it is up to ALL of us to protect them.

[gdeal]

You don't use a gun on someone who slaps a child - even your child.

Yeah, In California you would have to prove that there was some intent to kill which there wasn't. People wanting to kill someone over a slap (even though a slap is totally ef'ed up) is the reason there is not more open carry and concealed carry. You wanting to kill someone over a slap gives the anti-gunners "See that's why we can't have more guns" legislative power. If you carry you better not be a hot head. You might live to regret it.

[comn-cents]

Shooting someone over slapping someone (A 2 YEAR OLD CHILD)?
Let's see this guy is obviously out of his mind who knows what he may do next. First he grabs the kid then slaps them multiple times. The mother, lets say 5'5" tall 140 pounds has the right protect her child. How does she do that? He's just going to take the kid to his car for a second.:eek: The guy maybe crazy but he's still a large guy who's nuts. I see nothing wrong with protecting your child and yourself with deadly force. I don't think it really matters what happens or how perfect we are as CCW holders/gun enthusiasts the Anti's are going to make up something to try and take away our rights it's just who they are. So we let our children get abused by some nut job?

[azredhawk44]

This was .... a slap.

This was not a beating/kicking/pounding or any other truly physical level of abuse. It's akin to a spanking.

While entirely inappropriate on his part, it is not any situation involving lethal force.

Guy certainly is overstepping and needs police intervention, and your kid needs protection in this situation.

But it doesn't justify clearing leather or initiating a fistfight.

You do have an absolute right to escalate the situation and draw his attention from your child to yourself, redirecting the threat away from your kid...

But it ain't time to shoot or hospitalize anyone quite yet.

Your kid ain't actually hurt, Walmart has security camera footage of the event, and you can prosecute or sue to your heart's content later on.

Your parental ego is bruised, and that's it.

[bababooey32]

this 8 yr old is pinching my niece just for fun.

And YOU said you would break his arms? :eek::mad: If I was his father I'd kick your A$$ so fast you couldn't break a pencil. 8yr olds pinching is far from jsutification for employing force of that magnitude.

In any case, here we are talking about a grown man assualting -multiple times - a two-year old child. The mother is in no position to physically restrain him (though I met my wife would try). I can see readying or even drawing my weapon while retreating.

TailGator above has the scenartio right.

[flyguyskt]

I have to say...I too have wanted to slap the snot out of some screaming little brats...and the parent too!

i think this old dude too far but the lady should have took the kid to the restroom and calmed it down.

WHY do i have to suffer the annoyance of a whining kid because parents are too lazy to take care of it!?

ruin MY day because of it .... drives me crazy.

[bababooey32]

Your parental ego is bruised, and that's it.

I don't think this situation has anythiong to do with ego. A 2yr old was assaulted by a grown man, not even his own father. If I can't go physical to defend a two year old from a grown man, when can I? Do I have to wait for blood to be drawn from my child? Maybe wait till he loses consciousness? Good grief.

While entirely inappropriate on his part, it is not any situation involving lethal force.

You are probably right, but again a small woman should not be forced to endanger herself with serious bodily injury in order to protect her child. If serious bodily injury can reasonably be expected by her physically protecting her child, she may escalate to use deadly force (at least here in TX).

Your kid ain't actually hurt,

Doesn't matter. What matters is that his actions could have resulted in serious injury. I haven't had time to evaluate his injuries yet, but watching a grown man slap a two year old, it is reasonable to assume that he can seriously hurt the child. I am under no obligation to wait until that happens, or prove that it actually has happened before I am justified in defending the child from actions that could reasonably be interpreted as able to cause serious injury.

[bababooey32]

I have to say...I too have wanted to slap the snot out of some screaming little brats...and the parent too!

It's natural to be frustrated. Only knuckle-draggers and mouth breathers are unable to control their frustrations.

WHY do i have to suffer the annoyance of a whining kid because parents are too lazy to take care of it!?

Why should the rest of the world stop because you are overly sensitive to normal everyday noises? Kids cry. You can't just flip a switch and turn them off. Believe me, as a parent we are much more mortified that our kid id crying then you are annoyed about it. We would like nothing more then for our kid to stop. But we also need the milk and eggs.

Life goes on. Move to a different lane. Or YOU go the bathroom and takle a deep breath.

People that can't tolerate children are at the shallow end of the gene pool. This 61 year old guy pretty much proves it.

[Speaking of taking a deep breath - I'm a little upset at the calousness with which some poeters here apparently treat children. Over and out.]

[markj]

The old guy may have some form of dementia, I would not hit him nor shoot him. I would however keep him away from my kid and alert the proper authorities so he could be taken to a hospital or somewhere he may get help.

Just cant go around shooting people, I tell myself this numerous times each and every day :)

[Vanya]

This was .... a slap.

This was not a beating/kicking/pounding or any other truly physical level of abuse. It's akin to a spanking.

No, it isn't, actually. Mr. Stephens slapped the child "four or five times across the face." This is exactly the type of action that can produce abusive head trauma -- children under three are at particular risk for this, as they have large heads for their size and underdeveloped neck musculature. The type of injury that results from this, also referred to as "shaken baby syndrome," can be caused by shaking, slapping, or an impact with a solid surface or object. It's the combination of impact and rotational forces that does the damage.

AHT often causes irreversible damage. In the worst cases, children die due to their injuries.

Children who survive may have:

* partial or total blindness
* hearing loss
* seizures
* developmental delays
* impaired intellect
* speech and learning difficulties
* problems with memory and attention
* severe mental retardation
* cerebral palsy

Even in milder cases, in which babies looks normal immediately after the shaking, they may eventually develop one or more of these problems. Sometimes the first sign of a problem isn't noticed until the child enters the school system and exhibits behavioral problems or learning difficulties.
http://kidshealth.org/parent/medical/brain/shaken.html

Any of these consequences would be worth preventing by pretty forceful means, wouldn't you say?

And, yes, it's nice to think that Mr. Stephens must suffer from dementia in order to have done this, but it ain't necessarily so, and even if it were, that doesn't mean the child was less at risk from his actions.

And for what it's worth, the shaking, or slapping, or whatever is nearly always done to stop a baby from crying...

I have to say...I too have wanted to slap the snot out of some screaming little brats...and the parent too!
Have a little sympathy next time. What would happen if you smiled and said to the parent, "Someone's a bit tired today -- can I do anything to help you?"

[armoredman]

Disparity of force is a legal term for this case, this person's attack could have left the child severely injured or dead. I believe I would have physically stopped him and thrust him back, then called 911. If he had attempted to continue the attack, I would have done what seemed the best at the time. Don't let age be a factor here, as I have seen physically imposing 60ish men, and puny 20 year olds. I will also do everything I can to protect my son - he's the only one I will ever have.

[Skans]

Just a couple of responses:

But it doesn't justify clearing leather or initiating a fistfight.
While I agree that this situation doesn't justify the use of a firearm whatsoever, I would deck the guy if he slapped my child.

Kids cry. You can't just flip a switch and turn them off. Believe me, as a parent we are much more mortified that our kid id crying then you are annoyed about it. We would like nothing more then for our kid to stop. But we also need the milk and eggs.

Some kids cry and then their parents try their best to tend to the situation. Most folks with kids have been there and done that - they have my sympathy - put up with it. But, there are some obnoxious parents with obnoxious brats that SCREAM repeatedly without the parents doing a darn thing. That's bad parenting. And although I don't tend to scold parents for being blithering idiots letting their children carry on like that, I don't condemn other for doing so.

WHY do i have to suffer the annoyance of a whining kid because parents are too lazy to take care of it!?

You don't. Don't get married. Don't have kids. Don't leave your own house. When you're out in public on other people's property, you put up with this because you are no longer the "king". You're just a peasent like the rest of us.

[MLeake]

... but would have told him in no uncertain terms to back off, while putting myself between the kid and him.

I might have qualms about drawing a weapon on this guy, but if he communicated a threat toward the child and then acted as though he planned to make good on the threat, he'd be on the express ride to the floor.

It's good to have more than one tool in the box. I have a CCW. I also train on the mat, and hit the gym with some regularity. If he'd continued to try to get to the child, odds are I'd have feinted toward his face with a fist, and depending on his reaction either taken him down with an arm-bar or wrist-lock or else moved through him and taken him down by the head and/or neck.

If he got smart at that point, I'd have just held the lock until security or police arrived.

If he kept being stupid, he would start feeling serious pain, and if he still persisted he'd run a high risk of possible broken bones or torn ligaments and tendons, or maybe a carotid choke-out, depending on how he moved or what he attempted.

+1 to the posters who've highlighted the serious damage an adult can inflict on a toddler or infant with one or two strikes, or a good shake. If I'm not going to stand there and let a man put his hands on me, then I am DEFINITELY not going to let him put his hands on a kid in my care.

Cheers,

M

[comn-cents]

MLeake all you left out was coming off the top-rope with an atomic wedge.:D

[rantingredneck]

Thanks a lot, do you realize how much time I'm wasting on that site, yet I can't look away...

Much like a train wreck ain't it?



Regarding this 61 year old fellow............

Having read through this thread and the views of all of you I have to agree that this is a T&T issue. Earlier when I first read the article I thought "Tactics Hell, he'll be on the floor with me on top of him!"......which is still my position on anyone putting their hands on my child, or my wife, or me for that matter. I don't suffer being assaulted very well. Would I draw on the man? Not unless things significantly escalated to where my life or my family's life was in danger. And I see only limited possibilities of that.

I agree with the posters who have pointed out the likely damage from head trauma from the repeated slapping. I have spent my adult life working with adults and children with developmental disabilities. Many of those adults and children were born completely without disability, but were disabled permanently through the actions of an abusive adult. It's hard to objectively quantify the consequences of those abusive acts and the disability resulting. The long term costs of care to the individual, their family, and society are staggering in some cases.

I'll not have my child's life irrevocably altered by a grumpy old anti-social coot who should have got up on the other side of the bed that day.

[MLeake]

I don't like aerial moves. Highly impractical, primarily because once you lose contact with the ground, you are a ballistic object (IE you can't change your path). Besides, you can project a lot more physical power when both feet are grounded.

I just chose the moves I indicated in the above post because they aren't flashy, they aren't showy, they are very simple, and they seem to be what I use most in multiple attacker drills (because they are very simple and very quick to employ).

And yes, I have had to take down a guy and hold him for the cops before; I've also choked a guy out once before.

The most effective techniques are very often the ones that don't look like much.

Caveat: I had a few years of wrestling as a teenager, a couple years of kickboxing as a young Navy officer, and over a decade of aikido after I realized I was tired of breaking toes and dislocating thumbs (kickboxing styles will do that to you).

[2amencw]

I think this has actually been a good T&T post. As a father of 6 from 1 1/2 to 12 and a CCW I am always very concerned as to how to handle a dangerous situation when my family is with me. Most people who ccw dont always stay focused on that. In todays changing times I hope that many of the defensive instructors and institutes out there really take a new focus on safety, protection and emergency drills for families. My kids are aware that Daddy has a gun, they dont discuss it in public and they know to stay clear of my waist band. They know the gun is not for hurting people but to protect them. They of course know all their basics of gun safety, my 12y/o even knows his immediate action drills for the ar-15 like a hard charging Marine. My wife used to think I was nuts when I asked her to learn how to draw my weapon from me if I was unable. Now its, " you're carrying right...good" I work hard to teach my kids about their personal security and sanctity of their personal, private space. I also tie that with team work down to every level of our family interaction. We know from history the when everything else starts to fail you should be able to rely on family no matter what. Anyone who attacked my child would suffer immediate,severe but controlled violent action to stop the attack and create an oppurtunity for escape. Thanks Mo^on ^abe Craig

[RNB65]

You don't use a gun on someone who slaps a child - even your child.

True. But if it was my child, the fool would be spending a lot of time in a dental chair getting implants or dentures to replace his missing teeth.

On the bright side, the kid's family will probably collect a healthy sum of $$$ in the coming civil suit. Is there any jury that isn't going to hand this idiot his ass on a silver platter?

[Jim March]

This is a problem, but it's damned well NOT a lethal force situation AT ALL. Period.

[Kyo]

um, the kid is 2. let me make this a little more clear.
she's 2
that means she cant defend herself, he don't know what she's doing, and she sure isn't crying to **** off that old guy.
the old guy is in his 60's. he should know better, and 1 slap is bad enough. 5? where was this lady for the other 4?
My appropriate response would have been to reply to the old guy that if he touched my family I would put a hole through him.
a 2 year old is in fact delicate. I bet the guy's hand was more mass than the kid's head... and that being ran into your head 5 times is enough to do something. I don't care if you are the most thickheaded 2 year old ever. your still 2.
I say the kid is lucky.
it might have just been a lethal force situation. after the first one, if that was my child(I don't have kids, but repeated attacks are repeated attacks) I would have hit the guy, pushed him away at least, and called the cops. if he gets closer after that, i draw my weapon.

[Sixer]

But it doesn't justify clearing leather or initiating a fistfight.

Oh the fist fight has already been initiated... I'm not saying I would draw on the guy, but you can guarantee he's not getting a verbal warning before I put hands on him. He has crossed the point of no return by slapping my child. That gives me every right to put him in the ER AND press charges.

I'm not going to stand there like an idiot and say "Ummm excuse me sir, would you mind not slapping my baby?". Honestly, I'm gonna do my best to put the guy on his back and somebody is gonna have to pull me off of whats left of the baby slapper. Retarded, crazy, or not, you just don't do something like that.

[Double Naught Spy]

Flame me - but young heads and brains are delicate.

Also, if he grabs the child - you have no idea of he is going to drop the kid or what.

Obviously, extreme caution is needed in the application of force but this can be justified, IMHO, for a maximum response.

Yep. You don't get to shoot a person punitively, but certainly if they have slapped the child once already and you believe they are about to strike the child again, then lethal force certainly might be warranted to protect YOUR child or a child under YOUR care.

You don't use a gun on someone who slaps a child - even your child.

Come on, this is Walmart!!!! What do you expect at Walmart?

If another adult attempts to harm my 2 year old child? The law here gives me considerable leeway in the protection of my child if I believe there is fear that significant bodily harm or death might result. If the stranger has struck the head of the child, as noted by Glenn, then fear of significant bodily harm (brain damage, damage to the bony structure, damage to vision) is very real. Stoppage of subsequent blows may be justified under lethal force laws. They would be in my state.

Notice once again that I am not suggesting punitive after-the-fact shooting of the aggressor, but the stopping of repeated violence of a stranger on my own child.

What do I expect at Walmart? I expect other adults not to do physical harm to my child...the same standard I expect elsewhere.

[MLeake]

.... once again, this is a good example of why some basic MA training can come in handy, at least for those in decent health who could both learn and execute simple technique.

It's also a good example of why Less than lethal options can be good to have along. This particular guy was simply asking for pepper spray or a Taser.

Parents have killed their kids, doing what this guy was doing. An argument could easily be made to justify lethal force, given the disparity of force between mother and aggressor, and the even worse disparity between child and aggressor.

Oh, here's a simple technique a woman can use to peel a man's hand off her or her kid:

Don't grab the wrist or arm. Apply force against weak points. Grab one finger, preferably the little finger, and TURN YOUR WHOLE BODY FROM THE HIPS. Don't try to use wrist or arm strength. Just put all your body weight to work snapping one finger. You'd be amazed how fast a man will let go.

Don't believe me? Try this with a partner, but twist SLOWLY and in a controlled manner (we don't want to break our toys, or else we don't get to play with them again). You'll be surprised at how easy it is to break out of a grab or choke.

[rantingredneck]

Beyond that ^ there's also the application of complex torque. The human body doesn't like to resist torque on two axes. As you twist, bend. Things break sooner and there is less ability to resist.

The common kote gaeshi is an example of the principle as applied to the wrist, but it works on fingers too.

[MLeake]

I thought about that after my last post, but you beat me to it. Circles work well, but spirals / corkscrew motions work even better.

[stephen426]

I don't have any kids yet... but I someone made a threat against my 2 year old, I can guarantee he would not go through with it. My response would probably be so aggressive that he would back off. If he made a move towards my child after the warning, I would intercept and really get in his face. If he makes contact with me or my child, he is leaving in a stretcher. This is not chest pounding or machismo. How could a mother watch a complete stranger slap her 2 year old 5 times? I would not even tolerate someone I know laying their hands on my kid, especially at 2 years old! My 100 lb. wife would probably have gouged his eyes out after the first slap and maybe even turn him into an "it" if you know what I mean. Don't mess with momma bears!

[biohazurd]

Though i have no children, If i did have children, Someone touched my kid like that i would start throwing punches, and i wouldnt stop until he was on the ground knocked out cold.

[G-man 26]

Here are some tactics, don't let your kid scream uncontrollably in wal-mart. If someone is aggravated enough to threaten slapping your 2yr old, then you need to leave the store and come back when things have calmed down with jr. Yes, I have done this, it is damn inconvenient, but not more so than having to listen to some spoiled little s%\] scream uncontrollably. You and jr. Don't have the right to make that much noise.

"Kids are precious". BS! Anyone and everyone has them, and they aren't exactly charging for them either. There is no "entrance exam" for parenthood. Don't believe me, spend some time at Wal-mart. Or keep watching your vids on the WMpeople site. I think they make my point for me.

Your kid does not have the right to ruin everyone elses day because they are "young". If you don't TEACH them better when they are young, then they grow up to think they are "special" and "precious", and can do anything they want to satisfy their own impulses, (kind of like the 61yr old we are talking about here). Also kind of like the parent that stays in the Wal-mart with a screaming kid for another half-hour deciding which spatula they want, because it would be "inconvenient" to leave.

Quote:
My kids are aware that Daddy has a gun, they don't discuss it in public and they know to stay clear of my waist band

Does anyone think the person quoted here exerts this level of control over his children by beating them? My three children are this well behaved in public as well, and I didn't have to beat them to achieve this. I don't have 61yr olds threatening to beat my children in public either. If any comments are made, it's how well behaved my children are.

You, as responsible adults, have learned that some situations require different behaviors. You don't walk around Wal-mart in your undies, though you might do so at home. Different situation, different behavior. Likewise, you don't make prolonged eye contact, or rude comments to the group of gang bangers in front of the Wal-mart. These looks or comments may be acceptable in social situations with your closest friends, but not here. Your kids should learn this idea at the age of, oh say 2yrs, or even start younger. "No jr., you can't scream at people in public, that's a 'no-no'".

T&T? Don't let your kid rage against the machine in public. Don't let cantankerous old men within arm's reach of your kid, and don't stick around once the threat has been made. If old men are tired of hearing your kid, so is every one else, they are just too polite to tell you "U R doin' it wrong"!

...And to keep it fair and balanced, T&T for old men. If that tot is really getting that far under your skin, go to the front of the store, and enjoy a nice coffee at the McD's. DON'T hit the kid, it's wrong to hit kids that are not yours.

...And remember, 60ish is no longer the "greatest generation". 60ish is the "if it feels good, do it" red diaper doper hippie baby boomers generation. The preconception you may have of that old man, probably is not what really is. Sorry to any baby boomers that are not red diaper doper babies, but they have skewed my view of that age group. Love you vets out there.

Flame worthy? You bet! True? You bet! Flame on!

[MLeake]

... you raise valid points: behave in a courteous manner, think about how what your family is doing impacts others, and leave the annoying situation when possible.

However, I'm not sure your point about the crying baby applies here. The article cited in the link, and the local AJC coverage, said nothing about an endlessly crying infant. The way the reports were worded, the baby began crying, and the man immediately approached the mother.

The way the articles read, this all happened pretty quickly, before the mother had a chance to take the baby out of the store.

And while I agree that it's best to leave whenever possible, I still say that I wouldn't let a man put his hands on me, let alone a baby, whether that man is 61 years old or 21 years old. He may have thought he was having a bad day before he actually tried to grab the kid, but at the point he decides to manhandle a toddler, he's pretty much guaranteed to find out just how bad a day can be.

[Trashcan-man]

I'm not saying the old guy was right, as a matter of fact the old guy was very very very wrong and either needs to go to a mental facility if he is proved to be mentally unstable or he needs to spend some time in the pokey. This is not acceptable behavior at all.
On the other hand, I have definately encountered parents in all kinds of places...the movies was the worst...that will just let their child scream, yell, and do whatever else without doing something about it. I know that sometimes baby's cry, but if you can't stop the crying then it's time to leave. I know that little kids misbehave, if you can't stop them then it's time to leave.
On to T&T, I have a question to ask to those of you that say you would draw down on this guy/shoot him. If this guy has your kid in his arms and is slapping her/him are you sill going to draw your firearm and point it directly at your child? Yes this is a trap, to me saying that you would/could shoot a person in this situation is the same as saying that you could shoot someone in the knee. Sure you might get away with it, but there is also a chance that you could shoot your own child.:eek:

[Sarge]

This is a pretty good example of the rationale behind 'use of force in defense of others' clauses incorporated in most states' statutes related to that topic. Just from a quick read, I'd say that 'physical' force would be the appropriate response and my vote goes for canned produce, etc. applied with vigor, 'upside-a de head'.

Use the cheap stuff.

[R1145]

Seriously, all the virtual chest-pounding here is disturbing. An immediate escalation to lethal force is not justified, legally or morally.

I'm not just talking about this particular case. The training point here is that the vast majority of situations are best handled with a quick, appropriate response and do not require violence.

In this type of case, a quick verbal command would probably sufficed, if it had been given before the man struck the child. Also, some tactical positioning to keep the man away from the child. If he had already struck the child, I would have stepped in to halt the assault, then called for the authorities.

I picked her up and told him if he ever touched her again I'd break both his arms.

What about calmly explaining to the child that it is wrong to hurt others, then ensuring that it is followed up with consequences appropriate to the behavior? That boy clearly had issues that were not effectively addressed with idle threats.

There are almost always reasonable solutions that don't involve force. It's not my place to punish or threaten. To me, violence is a fairly dispassionate last resort to be used only when other means are not available.

[BillCA]

Wow... lots of interesting fodder here.

First and foremost, an adult who threatens a child in my care and then appears to act on that threat is going to either be on the express ride to the floor¹ or he's going to eat a whole bunch of shelving. A stranger who actually assaults said child is unlikely to leave the location without the aid of two men and a stretcher.²

With that said, I'm often disgusted by some current day parents. When my brother and I were children, if we misbehaved in the store, Mom would give us one chance to calm down with the threat of do you want to sit in the car by yourself? Of course those days are gone, but a time-out in the car with the parent watching from a short distance away (for a 4-8 year old) can simmer them down quickly.

Parents should be embarrassed when their kids misbehave in public. This includes loud crying, shrieking, running in the aisles, making messes, knocking over displays and other obnoxious acts. If you can't control your children in a short amount of time then you need to take them out of the store and "s'plain it" to them.

About 5 months ago, some little girl was crying loudly in the cart mom was pushing. She stopped near me and the cry turned to a shriek. I closed the frozen food door and said "My goodness, what are you crying about?"³ She looked me and I repeated the question and she started to calm down. Right then, the mother snapped, "It's none of your F---ing business, get away from us!" :confused: And the kid took up her dischordant shrieking again. I wanted to slap the mother, not the child.

Bottom line - parents should insist their children behave -at least in public spaces. Strangers threatening a child should either be avoided or verbally warned of overwhelming retaliation. Actually assaulting another person's child gives them the right to tap-dance on your forehead.


¹ Credit to MLeake for the phrasing.
² Face covered or not.
³ I've found asking kids to explain why they're upset makes them calm down a little. Then you can talk to them.

[jgcoastie]

I will agree that parents should absolutely teach their young'uns how to behave in public, but that being said, there ain't a whole lot you can do when the situation involves an infant. A 2 year old? Some, but age 2 is a little young for the child to have any more than a basic understanding of "No, (insert child's name here) don't do that." or whatever phrase works for you.

I think the main point here is that a complete stranger verbally threatened a child. Had it been my daughter (who is almost 2 right now) in the same setting, I would have cleared leather with my Blackberry. Had it escalated after the phone call, I would definitely take any and all necessary steps to protect my child if they did not back down. I would start with Level 4; Aggressive Response Techniques (kicks, punches, stuns, takedowns, OC spray) if that didn't work, then I'd go to Level 5; Intermediate Weapons (a compact expandable baton that I almost always carry on me), if any of these did not effectively stop the threat, Level 6 (deadly force) it is. I will employ lethal force to protect myself and my family, but only after all other reasonable options have been exhausted.

All other points aside (whether or not your children should or should not behave in a certain manner) there is absolutely no excuse for laying hands on a child that is not your own, especially in this manner. Period. No exceptions.

Serious, protracted brain damage/trauma could have resulted in this idiot's abuse of that child, therefore (according to the use of force continuum, see Level 6, Deadly Force) deadly force has already been used and deadly force may be used to stop it.

[garryc]

I would have shot him on the spot, and probably legally.

[TheNatureBoy]

I wouldn't recommend any one do that to my daughter. Thats all I have to say about that.

[comn-cents]

I think a lot of you are missing the point. It's not the crying child that is at fault here or the mother. It's the crazy old man who attached a helpless child and what needs to be done about that. I'm sure that everyone here who has children or has been around children have always been able to control those children’s actions 24/7. O ya that does not happen, kids cry. Maybe this child just pinched their finger in the shopping cart or one of 1,000,000 other reasons. Go on the "Please Be A Good Parent At Wally World" web site if you want to coach parents with your magical parenting skills.

[Wuchak]

I'll take the other side since no one else is.

This guy just did what people who are forced to have to listen to someone else's brat scream and cry, while the parent does nothing, would like to do all the time.

I think that we have found a new position that should be staffed at Walmart and every other public place (airplanes also come to mind). "Child Shutter Upper". Their motto will be the same as my Mothers, "Stop that crying or I'll give you something to cry about."

If the parent cannot control their child the Child Shutter Upper will step in and do it for them. After giving the parent a couple of slaps for failing in their parental responsibilities and for being an inconsiderate schmuck.

Too many parents have ceased actually being parents and allow their children to act like monsters in public. They just ignore the behavior and have no consideration for anyone else as they subject us to their devil spawn's antics. If they cannot stop they child's behavior they should have the decency to remove the child from the situation. Take them outside or back to the car until they calm down. Inconvenient? Sure but it's their monster. Nobody else wants to listen to them.

[comn-cents]

time for this one to close it went from T&T to parenting.:eek:

[Double Naught Spy]

Here are some tactics, don't let your kid scream uncontrollably in wal-mart.

Spoken like a person who hasn't had to take a sick child to Walmart. That isn't to say that most of the kids misbehaving at Walmart are sick. They aren't, but the solution isn't as clear cut as claimed.

If someone is aggravated enough to threaten slapping your 2yr old, then you need to leave the store and come back when things have calmed down with jr.

And the person threatening the child needs to be in jail.

[Sixer]

"Kids are precious". BS! Anyone and everyone has them, and they aren't exactly charging for them either. There is no "entrance exam" for parenthood. Don't believe me, spend some time at Wal-mart. Or keep watching your vids on the WMpeople site. I think they make my point for me.

Not directed towards you but... You gotta be kidding. I don't care how well you discipline a 2 year old... they're gonna cry even when you don't want them to. Do not even imply that you would slap my baby for doing what they do... I'd beat you down then find you for more later... You declare war on my family then you're gonna get exactly what you asked for. That sh$T is personal.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Stop ranting about the kid. No legal precedent gives anyone the right to assault another person for crying.

A young child was put at risk for no legit reason. If you don't like kids, tough.

I'm off to the range -but Pax, Capt., etc. are watching - stay with the real scenario and not some crap about kids and WalMart.

Next thing, some of you will be slapping grieving widows at funerals. :mad:

Also, the poster who said ****slap - edit that out before I get back. :mad:

[Sixer]

This guy just did what people who are forced to have to listen to someone else's brat scream and cry, while the parent does nothing, would like to do all the time.

You gotta be outta your mind. Bring your opinion up to Joetown and see what happens with it.

IBTL

[m&p45acp10+1]

I can assure if I had witnessed that scene the old guy would be given a steel toed redwing boot pasifier to make him stop screaming from the beating he had recieved.

[Sixer]

I can assure if I had witnessed that scene the old guy would be given a steel toed redwing boot pasifier to make him stop screaming from the beating he had recieved.

And that's what's up!

[nitetrane98]

I remember crying and whining in a store once when I was a youngster, Dad said, "Shut up that crying or I'll give you something to cry about." Sure enough, I didn't and he did. After that, all he had to say was. "You want something to cry about?" Nope.

Now, as a person who has the uncanny ability to attract crying children whether in a store, restaraunt, movie or trans oceanic flight, I can empathize with the guy. He just finally cracked after he got no response from the mama, or more likely a smarta** remark.

He's in jail and it's made national news so he'll be made an example, "For the children". Fair enough.

As far as T&T? How about mama says. "Nah, you just hold her and I'll beat the tar out of her!":eek:

[AirForceShooter]

A couple of points as I see it.

It's kind of amazing how many people are justifying NOT shooting.
Striking a child is a forcible felony. A parent or any bystander is justified in stopping it by gunfire. The

If a mom had shot the BG we would all be applauding her.
If it was a Dad we would all be asking why he had to shoot.

If you carry a gun your mind had better be equipped to handle the fact your may have to use it.

Yeah, I know I'll be flamed

AFS

[goodspeed(TPF)]

I want to see the video from the Wallyworld security cameras.

[Wuchak]

The best tactic would have been for the mother to have made some attempt to quiet the child or otherwise diffuse the situation. A simple,"I'm sorry if she's disturbing you." followed by some action to try to calm the kid down would have done it. If the kid was sick then a simple statement like, "I'm sorry if she's disturbing you, she doesn't feel well" would also have done it.

Everyone understands that sometimes kids are sick and cranky and throw tantrums. If the parent is addressing the situation with the child most people will empathize with them. If the parent is just ignoring it then people wonder how the parent can be so inconsiderate of others. The guy in this case was obviously wrong for striking someone else's child but the mother failing to recognize the disturbance he child was causing, and take steps to address it, is what allowed the situation to escalate.

[AirForceShooter]

There is no justification for slapping a 2 year old. A pop on the butt ok. Slapping his face? No way
None

AFS

[jgcoastie]

What's your take on this Kathy? From a mother's point of view...

[Double Naught Spy]

Funny how many people feel it justified to use lethal force against a dog attacking a child but are so hesitant about using lethal force against a stranger beating their own child about the head repeatedly.

The potential injury to the child is the same (significant bodily harm or death).

I personally don't consider an adult stranger attacking my 2 year old child all that different from a dog attacking my child in that they both need to be stopped immediately before causing real harm.

[comn-cents]

Double Naught Spy +1

[pax]

jgcoastie ~

Just got here. Let's see...

First: There is no behavior that a 2-year-old can do in public that justifies a stranger assaulting that child. NONE.

If a stranger threatens my child with bodily harm, I'm leaving the area immediately (as this mom apparently did). Leaving the area of the initial confrontation was the correct thing to do. She didn't stay to argue -- she left. Good call. In hindsight, a better call would have been to leave the store entirely, but leaving the area should have taken care of the problem.

Disparity of force is clearly present when an adult male attacks a 2 year old child. That is, he could kill the child or maim her for life with a single blow to the face. Post #39 (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3676655&postcount=39) spelled this out very clearly, and is worth a re-reading for those who doubt.

The mother has already retreated with her child; further retreat is no longer possible since the stranger now has his hands on the child; and a lethal-force assault against the child is underway NOW. The assault must be stopped immediately.

Disparity of force is present between the mom and the assailant. Courts have generally ruled that an adult male does possess the ability to maim or kill an adult female with his bare hands, even in the absence of weapons.

Does she have other options? We can speculate and ask "what if" she had martial-arts techniques available to her, but the stranger is threatening the life of her child right now, and she doesn't have time to run out and take a class. She must act now to save the child from the assault. Similarly, even if the mom has a canister of OC spray, there is no way to use that spray on the stranger without also spraying the baby. Is it reasonable to expect a mom to do that to her baby?

"Just use the cell phone." Several people have opined that the mom should simply have called the cops. That's good, but the dangerous assault is happening right now -- not ten minutes from now. The child's brain can be lethally or permanently injured at any moment, and the danger increases exponentially with each blow. Even a single blow is dangerous, and the assault is continuing.

Therefore, deadly force is justified to stop the dangerous assault. She has no other reasonable options immediately available to her that would prevent life-threatening harm to the child from the assailant's actions.

However. Despite the fact that lethal force would be justified, it may not be possible. What do the angles look like? What are the chances of the bullet striking the child as well as the assailant?

Note carefully: if the child were with the dad instead of the mom, disparity of force would not be present between the dad and the assailant. Adult males may have the luxury of going to fisticuffs in this situation.

But the mom does not.

pax

[Skans]

but that being said, there ain't a whole lot you can do when the situation involves an infant. A 2 year old? Some, but age 2 is a little young for the child to have any more than a basic understanding of "No, (insert child's name here) don't do that." or whatever phrase works for you.

Yes, there is - you spank them on their little butts and sternly tell them to stop the screaming. Crying in one thing, but if you can't either control your 2 year old screaming inside of a store, or take the kid outside, then you're an idiot. FWIW, it's only be a few years since I had to deal with my own two year old - so the experience is fresh in my memory. I NEVER let my child carry on and disrupt others in a public place for more than 1 minute.

I would never touch someone else's child and they better not touch mine. Regardless, that doesn't excuse parents who are too timid or idiotic to control their kids - YES, even a 2 year old!

[digdeep74]

As the father of four children i can testify to the fact that no one act of god or congress could stop a 2 year old child from crying sometime.
And further more even saying your tempted to smack anothers child is insanity.
I can garuantee that if you even look at my children with intent to smack them around you better man up !!!!!
The offense to the child in the wal mart was cowardly at best and the man needs prison time for his own lack of restraint .


And spanking them in public not only is against tha law(in which im a firm believer in spanking mine )
but do you really think they are going to just stop fussing or crying after you spank them.

[WIN71]

Striking a child is a forcible felony. A parent or any bystander is justified in stopping it by gunfire.There is no justification for slapping a 2 year old. A pop on the butt ok. Slapping his face? No way
I'm a little confused here Airforce. If it's a forcible felony justifying a shooting response what difference does it make if this alleged felony is perpetrated on the face or the butt ?

I'll have to admit, I have no idea what a forcible felony is.

[Skans]

....but do you really think they are going to just stop fussing or crying after you spank them.

The frist time this happens, no. You warn, warn again, then spank them if necessary and be prepared to leave the public place. But, once you follow through with spanking your child, they learn that you mean business when you warn them in the future.

I have only had to spank my child at most 3 times in 6 years.

Striking a child is a forcible felony. A parent or any bystander is justified in stopping it by gunfire.

The bottom line - no way in hell am I shooting someone if they ever happen to slap my child. I don't give a crap what the law says, I ain't doing it! I may beat the living tar out of the idiot, but I am simply unwilling to take someone's life over it. And, I really hope that no one else here would either.

[comn-cents]

I still don't get it. It's not about a crying kid, like I mention before. It's about an assault, the child happened to be the victim of that assault.
Is it justifiable for the mother to protect her child from this crazy person with lethal force. I think so as PAX and many others stated earlier. Anything could of set this guy off.

[Skans]

I still don't get it. It's not about a crying kid, like I mention before. It's about an assault, the child happened to be the victim of that assault.

How about you pick the child up and walk the other way! If the man continues in persuit, then that's a different story. This is not a life-threatening situation, as it was described.

[Dannyl]

Pax, you are 100% right.

An adult hitting a child is a serious threat to the kid's well being.

My son is now 10, and let me put it this way, if a stranger tries to harm him as described in this incident ( or in any other circumstances), I will not use a weapon,only my hands and boots, but I will hurt that person, plenty.

If this were to happen when my kid is with my wife, this is another story and he will need professional medical care, and fast.

Regarding T&T, this is where it may be good to mention that we both carry a small Oleor Capsicum spray can ( the type that squirts) it gives you one more non-lethal option.


Brgds,
Danny

[wally626]

My first response would be to get between the man and child. The guy can hurt you but is going to have a really hard time hurting the kid. I think most people in a shopping situation with mom in full "Cat" mode is going to back-off. If the mom was on the other side of the cart, the whole thing probably occurred before she could get there. If she was on the other side probably drawing a weapon would also be tough without putting the kid in hazard along with possibly other shoppers.

To reverse the issue and tatics a little.

What do you do if it is not a stranger hitting your kid but a stranger and their kid getting hit? Not a mom giving the kid a spanking or tap on the arm sort of thing, but a full out beating in public. Do you just call 911 or do you intervene?

[comn-cents]

Skans How is this not a life threatening situation? The Man could have easily killed that child with his hands. That is just a fact.

[pax]

How about you pick the child up and walk the other way! If the man continues in persuit, then that's a different story.

Skans,

Read the story again. She did walk away from the initial confrontation. He did pursue her.

http://www.ajc.com/news/gwinnett/man-slaps-strangers-crying-129235.html?cxtype=ynews_rss

This is not a life-threatening situation, as it was described.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3676655&postcount=39

On a child that small, even a single blow to the head can be life-threatening. Abusive head trauma is the single most common cause of death by abuse among children under three.

pax

[Stevie-Ray]

....I would have smacked the man across the face and said, "Doesn't feel good does it?"

Hey, it works for Chuck Norris.:D

[digdeep74]

Not all children are alike and some dont respond to any acts like spanking .There are some who have had suitable medical reasons and brain malfunctions that dont allow them to respond to anything anyone might do(autism,mentally challenged,ect..)To even respond by saying it was the mothers fault is foolish .This man was posing a threat to both of those people and capible of much more than slapping .
Did he pose a life threatning sitaution............. HELL YES HE DID !!!!!
To say shooting him is not an option is as well foolish .
How would you know he didnt have a weapon ?You wouldnt and i dont play poker with my families life PERIOD.

[hkkilla]

Everything about this story angers me deeply. I have a little girl who is about to turn 3, and she is the most beautiful, innocent little girl in the world. I believe that deadly force would be absolutely justified here. That son of a ***** not only laid his hands on a young child but someone elses child. My daughter has had one minor spanking in her life, and even that was with a padded diaper, not hard atall, and I feel bad about that! The fact that this childs mother let her child be struck 4 times in the face is absurd, the man should never have had the chance for that... after receiving verbal threats, I would have given a warning about touching my child, a very very very colorful and loud warning, and if the threat continued i would treat it as danger to my childs life and acted accordingly. Hurting young, defensless children is the lowest of low....:mad::mad::mad:

[Xyas]

Since he was able to get 4 slaps off in what I'm guessing is a short period of time, I'm wondering if they were both palm slaps and back of the hand slaps. Either or can cause serious harm to a child and it should not be taken lightly. I'd first try to get in between him and my child and if that doesn't stop him or he continues to go after the child then I would feel that using deadly force would be justified.

It doesn't take much to harm a 2 year old. A few hard slaps to the face can cause breaking of the bones, a concussion, and a number of other things...some of which can be fatal.

[Dannyl]

digdeep74,

Please think again,

1. Are you sure that it is not possible to subdue a 61 Y.O without having to shoot him?

2.more importantly, this took place inside a crowded mall; Do you really believe that it is a good idea to use a firearm in a crowded place unless it is really your last resort?

3. IF you tried to subdue him (I say subdue because sounds nicer than "beat the daylight out of him" :D) and he produced a knife / gun, then you may be justified to use lethal force, which can still be problematic in a crowded place.

I personally dont like the thought of using a firearm in a crowded place, even if it is legal to do so in the given circumstances.

Brgds,
Danny

[stephen426]

digdeep74,

Please think again,

1. Are you sure that it is not possible to subdue a 61 Y.O without having to shoot him?

2.more importantly, this took place inside a crowded mall; Do you really believe that it is a good idea to use a firearm in a crowded place unless it is really your last resort?

3. IF you tried to subdue him (I say subdue because sounds nicer than "beat the daylight out of him" ) and he produced a knife / gun, then you may be justified to use lethal force, which can still be problematic in a crowded place.

I personally dont like the thought of using a firearm in a crowded place, even if it is legal to do so in the given circumstances.

Brgds,
Danny

Lets not get off topic here. We are talking about a mother's ability to defend her child against a grown man. You are assuming that the 61 year old man is frail and weak, but I did not get that from anything I read. The article also doesn't mention that the mother was weak and defenseless, but on average, most grown men are stronger than women. If this guy was pursuing your wife after she attempted to leave, would you not want her to defend herself?

The attack could not be prevented even though she tried. Therefor, the attack must be stopped. If the mother was unable to do it without a weapon, then I believe that one should have been used. I would want my wife to issue a stern warning to immediately stop hitting the child before shooting the guy, but if he kept on, I would expect her to shoot.

I agree that it is annoying when kids are fussing in public, but I sure as heck would not tolerate a stranger slapping my child.

I think some of the people here are assuming that we would pull out our guns and immediately shoot the guy. For most people here, it would probably play out like this...

1. Issue a stern verbal warning, possibly with some colorful language.
2. Attempt to move away from the guy.
3. Attempt to intercept/block the guy if he moved toward your child.
4. Use physical force if there was not a major disparity of force should he attempt to hit your child.
5. If there is a major disparity of force, draw a weapon.
6. Issue a final warning to stop hitting the child.
7. Shoot the guy if he does not stop the attack.

This is more than reasonable in my opinion and I'm sure most LEO would probably agree.

[tyrajam]

Note carefully: if the child were with the dad instead of the mom, disparity of force would not be present between the dad and the assailant.

Something tells me that if there had been a dad present, this never would have happened. This guy was looking for an easy target, and a lone mom with a screaming tot is a perfect one. The kind of guy who abuses a child is into domination and power, which means he probably wouldn't have picked on someone his own size.
Maybe thats why I said on the first page that I would have immediately moved between my child and the man. The threat did not justify drawing for me, but for this lone lady, or anyone who feels overmatched and threatened, nobody can tell you not to draw.

[pax]

tyrajam ~

Good observation, and I agree with you.

pax

[digdeep74]

I have thought this out and there are many 61 year old men that could pose a life threatning stand against you .

[Brit]

I second your second... Myself and or my wife would have beat the berjeezus out of the old man!

I am 72 YOA, not that easy to be beaten up, I also would not dream of smacking some one else's "2 year old!" ever.

And by the way, 61 is not old in these times, I came second out of 55 Firearms Instructors in an annual Training Seminar in 2004, I was the oldest at the venue! at 68.

Don't know why I am even commenting, I don't have a horse in this race, maybe because it was quite a shock hearing a 61 year old, being called an Old Man.

[Tex Shooter]

I remember when I was a kid in church with my family, we had to be on our best behavior. No messing around, no making noise, pay attention. Whenever there was some kid sitting in the pew in front of us with his/her family acting up, my dad would actually reach forward, not say a word, grab the top of the kid's head, and turn it forward to face the front of the church. Every single time, the kid would behave perfectly from that point on. Just like a statue.
It was such a long time ago, I honestly can't remember whether or not the other kids parents ever saw my dad do this. There were never any altercations or repercussions. I just remember being shocked and embarrassed.
Looking back on it now, I don't approve of what my dad did. If someone did that to my kid, church or not, we would have words for sure. If someone actually struck my child, for whatever reason, I would hospitalize him. I don't think there's a jury in the land that wouldn't see that my way.

[Crosshair]

I worked retail for 5 years and by and large I place more fault on the parent than the man. People just do not take the time to discipline their kids. The PARENTS are creating the bad situation.

So many parents think that their child "isn't that loud". Yes it is. It's a car alarm that poops. Make it be quiet or take it outside. A 2 year old can be disciplined so they know such tings are not acceptable and if the child continues their behavior than the parents remove the child from the store. I have a couple of friends with young kids who have the common decency to either discipline their kid or take them out to the car until they be quiet.

On this specific case, I don't quite have enough details or certainty to make a call, but I certainly sympathize more with the crazy old man than with the mother.

Everyone knows not to go looking for trouble. Letting your child scream at the top of its lungs is going looking for trouble with a neon sign over your head.

[dabigguns357]

No person shall ever hit/slap my child no matter how hard my child is screaming.Had my wife been in this same situation i know she would been able to take this b/g down,while calling me.If for some reason it was me instead of my wife then i would render him usless,before he got to the second slap.There would be no walking away or fleeing the scene while calling 911,there would be enough on lookers to call for me.There was no reason for this to have happened,he could have ignored it and walked away.

To me he posed a clear danger when said what he did then escalated the threat level by acting on it.

On another note i would like to see him sit in a jail cell for the rest of his life while the guards played recording of children screaming and crying every second of every day,just to keep him company.:D

[jgcoastie]

The PARENTS are creating the bad situation.

Oh, yeah! The mother is the one who asked the man to slap her child into permanent brain trauma. I guess I just misread... :barf:

Oh wait! The mother actually did leave the immediate area, left the man alone and took her kid elsewhere. The man FOLLOWED HER!!! What in the h*ll is wrong with you people? Blaming the mother because some wack-job came up and started beating her child...:barf:

BOTTOM LINE

A MAN SLAPPED A TWO YEAR OLD CHILD ON THE HEAD, REPEATEDLY! THERE IS NO EXCUSE, AND THOSE OF YOU WHO SAY THAT THE MAN WAS JUSTIFIED OR THAT IT IS THE MOTHER'S FAULT (that she couldn't keep the kid quiet enough) THAT HER KID WAS ASSAULTED: YOU MAKE ME SICK TO MY STOMACH. I AM DISGUSTED AND ASHAMED TO SHARE A COMMUNITY WITH YOU.:barf:

My kids have just as much of a right to be in a public place as you do, no matter what their mood. Go ahead, just try to harm one of them, if I can't beat your a** into a pulp, then I'll just shoot you where you stand. My children's lives are more important to me than yours will ever be, no matter if they are screaming or not. I don't care if you're Mother Teresa or Christ re-incarnated, you beat my kids = I beat your a** or shoot you. Either way, you ain't walkin away like a normal person afterwards.

[hogdogs]

If a kid in my mom's care was a screaming banshee, she would give only one warning...
"Suck it up or I will pull yer pants down and paddle your bottom in front of god and everybody..." AND YOU KNEW NOT TO BET AGAINST IT!!!:D
As for me, If I ain't in the mood to hear a squallin' punk and the mother fails to acknowledge it... I have, do and will go up tell her... "Why don't you deal with your kid or take 'em outside and lock 'em in the trunk... that will shut 'em up!":mad:
Brent

[zxcvbob]

Brent, I've got no problem with that. But if you then lay a hand on that child, I've got no problem with the mom shooting you between the eyes.

The man in this story is lucky to still be alive. I hope he gets plenty of time behind bars to think about that.

[hogdogs]

z-bob, I am sure we are on the same page...
I raised my kids from '90 to present so I wasn't at liberty to paddle their butt as momma was with us as kids.
I did have a way of whispering in their ear to knock it off, if that failed I gave a quite "covert" light backhand, enough to scare them but not enough to split a lip... Worked fine for me...:D
Brent

[zxcvbob]

Just to toss out a curve ball, does anyone think he would have done this if the mom was open-carrying a sidearm? :D

[Wagonman]

Originally Posted by tyrajam
Thanks a lot, do you realize how much time I'm wasting on that site, yet I can't look away...

Much like a train wreck ain't it?


I can't stop HELP :eek::barf::rolleyes::D

On a serious note----If some stranger were to touch my son they would be forcilbly introduced to my handcuffs and he would be looking at an aggravated battery charge.

I take pride in my parenting. I am on top of everything my boy does in public. He is very well behaved on the whole but the horns come out occasionally---especially when he it tired and then we have some private Daddy/Michael time and we come back to center.


I remember when I was a kid in church with my family, we had to be on our best behavior. No messing around, no making noise, pay attention. Whenever there was some kid sitting in the pew in front of us with his/her family acting up, my dad would actually reach forward, not say a word, grab the top of the kid's head, and turn it forward to face the front of the church. Every single time, the kid would behave perfectly from that point on. Just like a statue.
It was such a long time ago, I honestly can't remember whether or not the other kids parents ever saw my dad do this. There were never any altercations or repercussions. I just remember being shocked and embarrassed.
Looking back on it now, I don't approve of what my dad did. If someone did that to my kid, church or not, we would have words for sure. If someone actually struck my child, for whatever reason, I would hospitalize him. I don't think there's a jury in the land that wouldn't see that my way.

I think you are talking about a different era. We have moved away from all adults taking care of children-----to our societal detriment. I would never approve of physical disciplining another person's child but a little reminder doesn't hurt

[G-man 26]

She stopped near me and the cry turned to a shriek. I closed the frozen food door and said "My goodness, what are you crying about?"³

³ I've found asking kids to explain why they're upset makes them calm down a little. Then you can talk to them.


Well put. And this psychology works on the older ones as well. Like 61yr olds that take to threatening 2yr olds. “I’m gonna slap your kid!” To which you ask them to explain their aggression against such a little one (in comes the calming effect of the thought process) and you explain why such an act would be a detriment to their own health and well being. This conversation should be held while rifling through the purse for the pepper spray or possibly a more lethal device, and making a hasty get away. IMHO, pepper spray (over spray) in the eyes of a child while one heck of a guilty feeling for momma, would be better than the beating he was giving the little one. OC washes out, head trauma does not.

I remember BillCA giving me a note once to re-check the color alert level after I had joked about being at red alert all the time. It was more of a “Star Trek” reference, but I listened, and read up on it. I don’t agree with constantly assigning and re-assigning a color code for my state of awareness, but I get the point, and I think it applies here. Had the mother’s level of awareness remained elevated after leaving the immediate danger, she would have stood a better chance of avoiding the slapping altogether. She did not take the threat as serious as it was, and that is why the man was able to grab the child.

Maybe I was not clear before; I also am against strangers slapping children in the head. Especially my children. I don't think that lethal force is appropriate in this instance however. I would not "beat him senseless" or "gun that SOB down". He would not touch my child as so many others have said. There are so many other ways to accomplish this (you big burly men out there) that I feel it is ridiculous to just go for the gun. Not so much against it in momma's case, but for 6'4", and 240lbs of ground pounding, child protecting fury, I think the gun or severe beating is uncalled for. Some of you men out there might want to reconsider the “Disparity of force” thing. You beating an “old man suffering from dementia” into submission and causing grave bodily harm would play as well on the nightly news as an old man slapping the bejezus out of a little kid. Somthing to think about.

[Cousin Toad]

When I take my kids out in public I am mindful of the surroundings and my children's behavior. If for some reason I cannot get them to stop crying, we are leaving and will do the shopping or errand after they calm down or at a later time. I do not like to hear unconsolable crying children no more than anyone else. This whole situation screams out to me about people not being aware of the people around them and their surroundings. This is one of those really unique situations that happens very rarely.

I would not use deadly force against the old man unless this whole situation spiraled out of control with him producing some kind of weapon or assaulting the child with fists or not being able to control him in some manner with holds, OC, etc. Using the firearm in a crowded store would be an absolute last resort. You would have to justify the amount of force used with what would be considered reasonable. I just don't like the idea of being in court and my justifications for shooting a 61 yr. old man for slapping (with open hand) a child and the bullet exiting him and striking a grandma in housewares two aisles over and killing her.

If my wife had been by herself in this situation with the 2 yr old she would have initially put distance between this man and her as she is generally nonconfrontational. In the event he would have continued and struck the 2 yr. old he would have probably wished someone would have shot him because it would be like a bad scene from "When Animals Attack." The woman can be quite ferocious when you mess with her young'uns. :eek:

[Crosshair]

Oh, yeah! The mother is the one who asked the man to slap her child into permanent brain trauma. I guess I just misread...

Oh wait! The mother actually did leave the immediate area, left the man alone and took her kid elsewhere. The man FOLLOWED HER!!! What in the h*ll is wrong with you people? Blaming the mother because some wack-job came up and started beating her child...
Please read the entire post before making yourself look foolish.

On this specific case, I don't quite have enough details or certainty to make a call, but I certainly sympathize more with the crazy old man than with the mother.

I was talking about screaming kids in general. I have done some more digging on this and perhaps this was not the best case for the man to go slap crazy as the woman seemed to be action reasonable to her child's screaming/crying.

However my point still stands that many parents today bring much of this ire upon themselves. Are they 100% to blame, no. However they do share blame in creating the situation.

I don't go driving through the bad part of town shouting racial slurs out my window at the people I pass. Sure, if I get yanked from my car and beaten with a baseball bat I'm technically the victim, but my actions payed a part in creating the situation.

Parents should not walk through a crowded store with their child screaming at the top of their lungs. It is inviting trouble. I've seen plenty of customers with their screaming kids get a tongue lashing from other customers. sometimes forming into a mob, to please shut their kids up. Never has it gotten physical, but many times it comes close. Of course the child bearing "customer" often takes offense to being asked to quiet the 130 decibel siren in their shopping carts, or running free in the store, and complains to management. Of course none of the staff saw any of this *cough*, the person gets ****** and says they aren't coming back to our store. We would be very grateful if they did not come back, but no fail they are back again with their screaming kids the next week.

I'd love to come to those peoples job and walk around blasting an air horn all day and see how they like it. I do work in Jails now and I find it MUCH less stressful than retail.

[Beentown71]

One thing this thread did do was open up dialogue for my wife and I. We have talked through it. Her answers actually suprised me. She now has a plan of what to do. So thanks for posting it.

Those of you say that it was the mothers fault...you are way off base. No matter what another persons child does (outside of hurting your kids, saving them from hurting themselves badly, etc...) there is no reason to touch them.

Sure I hate it when someone doesn't control their kids but I move on. I may even say something to them...offer a helping hand not a backhand.

Orig poster - Crosshair

I don't go driving through the bad part of town shouting racial slurs out my window at the people I pass. Sure, if I get yanked from my car and beaten with a baseball bat I'm technically the victim, but my actions payed a part in creating the situation.


Way over the top and not even a comparison.

There is SO much more I disagree with but...I have to discipline my child.

[dabigguns357]

I'm sure the man had a good reason for getting so angry that he had to frighten and basicly stalk the mother and child as they left where he was at.This sounds like a pretty simple case for getting hurt or killed.

I work for walmart myself and have seen some really crapy things go one with parents and children,but i have never been mad enough to strike down a child(though i have wanted to knock a knot on some parents).

Heck 2 weeks ago i saw a 8 year old boy walk down the isle 8 and punch a hole in at least 7 bags of flour and suger.Was i mad (h%^$ yea but not enough to stalk him then slap him).Three days ago i heard a child from produce all the way back in dairy screaming and crying because she didn't get what she wanted.Did i get mad no,i went in the other direction.You know why,it's the sane thing to do.No matter how good kids are,they will scream and cry at the worst time.

I wonder how he would have reacted to say a new born like mine crying and screaming.Would he have stalked he and my wife down and slapped him down too.

Tactically she what she could,minus breaking a bottle of something over his head and sliced his $%& up with the broken pieces.But he is where he needs to be and he can work out his anger issues with all the other inmates.

[jgcoastie]

Please read the entire post before making yourself look foolish.

I did, here's what I found... (all emphasis added by me)

I worked retail for 5 years and by and large I place more fault on the parent than the man. People just do not take the time to discipline their kids. The PARENTS are creating the bad situation.

So it's the mother's fault that a wack-nut followed her and her kid around the store, resulting in him striking the child with possible life-ending blows. Ok, got it. :barf:

So many parents think that their child "isn't that loud". Yes it is. It's a car alarm that poops. Make it be quiet or take it outside. A 2 year old can be disciplined so they know such tings are not acceptable and if the child continues their behavior than the parents remove the child from the store. I have a couple of friends with young kids who have the common decency to either discipline their kid or take them out to the car until they be quiet.

And how do you propose I do that? Slap 'em around a bit? I'd rather not do that to my children, at home the disciplinary rules may or may not change, that is my call. In public and at home however, I choose not to beat my kids in the head.

Me and my kids have just as much of a right to be in a public place as you do. I will do everything I can to correct the situation as it pertains to their happiness, but push come to shove; sometimes kids just need to get it out of their system. You may understand one day when you have children of your own. (I assume you do not, since you referenced your friends' children.)

On this specific case, I don't quite have enough details or certainty to make a call, but I certainly sympathize more with the crazy old man than with the mother.

How is that possible? You obviously do not have any sense of parental love and sympathy. If my child were hit by another, I would be enraged, after I educated the attacker to pick on someone his own size, I would be devastated. As a parent, above all else, you want to protect your children from harm. If you allowed someone to strike your child, you would feel like a failure in that aspect.

Maybe you meant to say empathize instead of sympathize?

Everyone knows not to go looking for trouble. Letting your child scream at the top of its lungs is going looking for trouble with a neon sign over your head.

I fail to see how having an upset child is asking for trouble??? That's like saying someone going into a Ole Miss pep rally wearing a Mississippi State University shirt is looking for a bottle of warm milk/juice box/snack/etc.

Irrational people may consider a screaming child as a parent looking for trouble, but most folks see it as a tired kid with a parent that needs a little more time in each day to get all the errands done.

I really don't understand some people's logic, or apparent lack thereof. :rolleyes:

[pax]

Closed.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3677504&postcount=71

Glenn, thanks for buying us two more pages -- and thanks to those who stayed on topic.

Disgusted with those who would blame the victims, and who sympathize with a violent criminal.

pax