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Dead Eye
August 30, 2009, 02:50 PM
I'm in the market for an O/U and have found the following used guns. I was wanting to spend less that 2K including tax but can't make a decision. Which of these is the best deal?

Beretta Silver Pigeon III Sporting 28" Barrell. $1650.00 (In great shape for used gun) No nicks or scratches anywhere.

Ceasar Guerini Summitt Sporting 30" Barrell. $2400.00 (Like New)

Browning XS (new in box) 30" Barrell. $1850.00

jaymce
August 30, 2009, 03:33 PM
The one that fits you and your budget the best. Any of the 3 will last a lifetime.

That said if I had it to do over again I might go for the CG. My brother bought one and I really like it.

At the time I bought my Cynergy there was no place around to hoist a CG and I did not want to go out on a limb and purchase a gun I could not look at. CG also has great customer service.

MKTexas
August 30, 2009, 04:14 PM
Let me know where to buy one of the ones you don't buy (particularly the baretta)

Waterengineer
August 30, 2009, 09:19 PM
The Beretta is a very good deal for a Pigeon III.

But.....my choice would be the Browning, also a very good deal.

Can you shot all three? Buy the one that fits.

Good luck and let us know what you get.

Dead Eye
August 30, 2009, 09:48 PM
I'm leaning towards the Beretta. It has the highest drop to comb and drop to heel. I think that is good since I'm tall and thin. I don't know much about gun fit. I usually add about 1/2" to 3/4" to LOP and call it good with my field guns. I guess I need to go get fitted and see which one is closest. Any good rules to fit myself or should I have a pro do it? What would they charge to fit me?

The CG feels great but I'm struggling to justify the extra $750.00.

Waterengineer
August 31, 2009, 04:25 AM
Over on another website: www.shotgunworld.com there is a specific forum for CG owners. They are a dedicated bunch. I'd suggest asking your questions about CG there but remember they are a touch biased.

As far as the drop in the Beretta comb, yes, that is typical, Beretta has a bunch of drop. If that is important, ie. you have a long neck, and it fits, then I say wear it.

Something else to consider. There are many of us here that believe consistancy creates better shooting. Translation, reduce the number of variables from the gun mounting so the gun points the same each time. The chance of putting your cheek down the same is greatly enhanced with a parallel stock gun like the Browning XS.

LanceOregon
August 31, 2009, 08:32 AM
Whichever gun you get, be sure to put an EasyHit Sporting Clays sight on it. It is fabulous:

http://www.easyhit.com/images/ssb_prod_shot.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/easy_hit_online.jpg


See:

http://www.easyhit.com/?page=8


--

oneounceload
August 31, 2009, 08:48 AM
Just remember - while all three are very good, each will fit somewhat differently, so fit should become the deciding factor. Typically, if the Beretta fits, the Browning won't - not a bad thing, just different. If you can't shoot these particular guns first, try to find someone at your local club who has a similar model and try them. You shouldn't see rib, (or the front sight for that matter), only the bird breaking.

Waterengineer
August 31, 2009, 08:52 AM
As for the tube sight, it is a like it or hate it thing. Rarely do you find a take it or leave it opinion.

It is very personal.

For me. Notice I said, for me. I don't like it. Reason: with the flourecent tube I concentrate on the sight and not the bird (clay or feathered.)

Two beads for me - even on my preferred live bird guns.

oneounceload
August 31, 2009, 10:20 AM
I agree WE - I borrowed a friend's CG with a LH stock to try it out. he had one of the green glow pipes - While that thing lit up in the sun, I spent more time looking at it and not the bird......not MY thing anyway.

BigJimP
August 31, 2009, 10:59 AM
You didn't say which Browning XS model it is - there is more than one - but I think all the XS models have parallel combs.

In general, I think a parallel comb gun - will fit the most people. The concept of fit - means it hits where you look. Your eye is the rear sight of a shotgun - being tall and thin doesn't necesarrily mean more drop is a good thing.

I would lean toward the Browning XS ( but it might depend on which model it is ) - does it have an adj comb cut into the comb ?

I think the light pipes are a mistake / distracts your eyes from the target and makes you stop your swing .....

JWT
August 31, 2009, 12:59 PM
I'd go for the Browning and skip the light pipe. I'm a big fan of Brownings - very well made solid guns for the money. Tried a light pipe (magnetic attachment) for about one round of clay shooting and put it away never to be used again. As others have said - too distracting.

LanceOregon
August 31, 2009, 05:17 PM
Well, not one single of you guys ( by your own admission ) has ever used a EasyHit. So much for you badmouthing a product that you have never even tried.

It is not your typical fiber optic sight by any means at all. It is a precision product imported from Sweden. It comes in a total of 3 different lengths, and 3 different bead sizes too. So one can get the exact size and brightness that one prefers.

Tom Knapp strongly endorses it, and uses it on all of his Benelli shotguns at this shows. Here in the drab overcast skies of Western Oregon, this sight is an absolute godsend.

I'll never forget my first time hunting with it. I had the sight on my Winchester Super X2 ( the photo of the camo barrel that I posted ). My buddy and I were hiking to the spot where we planned to put out our decoys. We were a bit late, and while we were traveling along the slough, shooting hours started. So we loaded up our guns and put our safeties on just in case we ran into any birds, and then resumed our hike.

Besides being first shooting light, it was heavily overcast and foggy too.

Well, guess what? Not more than 2 minutes after we load our guns, a small flock of ducks comes tearing right up the slough just over the water. They literally materialized just before our eyes, out of the fog, and were headed right at us. They were as surprised to see us as we were to see them.

Well, we both struggled to shoulder our shotguns as quickly as we could. My friend managed to get off two shots with his Browning BPS, and got one bird. But I managed to get off 3 shots, and nailed the first two birds as dead as door nails. They both dropped like rocks out of the sky.

I've loved this sight ever since that day, and now have it on all of my shotguns.

And as far as it being a distraction, hell, it is just the OPPOSITE for me. Because the sight is so visible, one can focus much more easily on one's target, as you can see the sight so much better in your peripheral vision.

Blaming a sight for being too visible and distracting? That just sounds so very lame to me. I want a sight that I can clearly see, even when I am not looking directly at it.

The Cabelas customer rating on this shotgun sight is 4.9 out of a possible 5.0:

http://www.cabelas.com/p-0060548229474a.shtml

Show me another shotgun sight on their website that is rated as high. It is truly awesome.


http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s205/duckhunter55/Tom_Knapp.jpg
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LanceOregon
August 31, 2009, 05:25 PM
I think the light pipes are a mistake / distracts your eyes from the target and makes you stop your swing ....

That is like one of the most ridiculous things that I have ever heard said.

Would you mind explaining for us all exactly how a brighter sight makes a person stop their swing??

That is utter nonsense, in my opinion.

--

BigJimP
August 31, 2009, 06:23 PM
Anytime you look at the sight on the end of the barrel, it means your eyes come off the target - and it will stop your swing ... you can watch a guy swing on a Skeet target - and every time he or she looks at the barrel, it stops the gun movement .... its easy to see.

I've seen Tom Knapp shoot with it on his guns / but I don't think he uses it - he endorses it - but I don't think his eyes ever leave the target / but I don't know Tom well enough to ask him.

Waterengineer
August 31, 2009, 06:26 PM
And, as BigJim alludes to. Mr. Knapp get paid to put it on his gun, thank you very much.

If you read my thread, I did not ask you or suggest you not use it. I said I wouldn't be using it.

oneounceload
August 31, 2009, 07:16 PM
While I used a different product, they all still function the same. Never said the product was poorly made, said I tried one and didn't like it because it distracted me and drew my eyes from watching the target.

If it works for you, good for you. Obviously, some of here disagree

Dave McC
September 1, 2009, 08:29 AM
Shotgunners differ on what they "Need" at the end of the barrel.

Sarah Sanford does very well with nothing there. So do a surprising number of fine game shots.

My scores did not change when I went from a standard bead to no bead to a small F/O light pipe. I did get better hits with the "Green Worm" and believe it enables me to better position the barrel in my peripheral vision.

Some folks DO find it a distraction.

Best to T&E for ourselves.

LanceOregon
September 2, 2009, 02:37 AM
I don't deny that for some folks it could be considered a "distraction". But to me, that is more a personal preference issue, than anything else. Sure, not everyone is going to prefer to use a fiber-optic sight. But after trying just about every such sight that has been on the market in recent years, I certainly like the EasyHit the best by far out of all of them.

BigJimP's assertion that it would "CAUSE" one to stop swinging their shotgun, though, is categorically ridiculous. It is a person losing their mental concentration and focus, that causes them to stop their swing. Not the brightness of their sight.

So let me try to better understand what folks are trying to argue here. It seems that everyone is saying that their attention span and concentration skills are so extremely poor and marginal, that just having a brighter bead on their shotgun is going to make them completely mess up their shot? In other words, it seems to me that they are saying this: Weak-minded marksmen who cannot maintain their focus or concentration should avoid using any fiber optic sight, no matter what the brand it is.

That is utter Balloon Juice in my opinion, and is totally bogus.

BigJimP obviously is talking without any personal experience or first hand knowledge at all, as he readily admits that he himself has never even used an EasyHit sight. Yet he is so very willing here to attack it. Hmmm .....

And for him to assert that perhaps Tom Knapp does not really use the sight himself? Well, let's see him post some photos of Tom not using the sight:


http://www.benelliusa.com/team_benelli/images/tom_knapp_1.jpg

http://www.easyhit.com/images/tom.jpg


Actually, folks here could simply go onto Tom's own website and ask him in his message forum what he personally thinks of the EasyHit. I did that myself years ago......


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darkgael
September 2, 2009, 04:10 AM
Off topic now, aren't we?

Pete

oneounceload
September 2, 2009, 09:08 AM
So let me try to better understand what folks are trying to argue here. It seems that everyone is saying that their attention span and concentration skills are so extremely poor and marginal, that just having a brighter bead on their shotgun is going to make them completely mess up their shot? In other words, it seems to me that they are saying this: Weak-minded marksmen who cannot maintain their focus or concentration should avoid using any fiber optic sight, no matter what the brand it is.

You resorting to insults gets you no where in the credibility department. The OP's question was about skeet guns. YOU bring in this off-topic rant and then proceed to denigrate everyone, (who have a lot of experience) that do not agree with you.

I can assure you that MY attention span is just fine - and I would rather be focusing on the target to hit....but then that's just me - I'd rather break them than miss them. I have shot with, coached with, and practiced with too many folks who miss behind by stopping their gun, and the majority of them have some form of glow pipe. Once removed their scores improved - not by some major factor, but they did go up.

YMMV.

Waterengineer
September 2, 2009, 09:56 AM
This thread has degenerated to a rant, a bashing, insults, etc.

Let's repect the OP and either get back on topic or kill the thread.

Opinions are like............everyone has one.

To the dude that wants to fight over glow pipes, how about starting your own thread? I am sure we can "talk" about it over there.

Here is the bottomline. We all shoot (or say we do) and have learned what works or doesn't work for us, as an individual. Great, we are all different.

As my now dead grandfather use to say....it is good we don't all like the same girl..........

johnbt
September 2, 2009, 10:05 AM
re: shotgunworld and Guerini... "but remember they are a touch biased."

No we're not. NOT NOT NOT. :)

All I have a lousy little 28" 28 ga. Woodlander, so don't mind me, I'm jealous and want a real big CG gun. ;)

John

P.S. - I tried the fiber optic sight that came on my used SX-2 Waterfowl. The ducks and the geese were laughing at it in the first rays of dawn as they flared off, so I took it off. They have really good eyesight. I haven't had a sight on the gun for a couple of years now and like it that way. If I wasn't so lazy I'd remove the sights from all my shotguns. I look at the target and not the sight anyway. My great-uncle Ed used to file the bead down on all of his shotguns, so maybe it runs in our genes.

JWT
September 2, 2009, 12:24 PM
What happened to the discussion started at the beginning of this thread? It was about choosing a skeet/sporting gun, not a heated exchange of ideas about light/glow pipe sights.

BigJimP
September 2, 2009, 12:36 PM
I agree - let's move on.:D

Jimdo
September 2, 2009, 01:54 PM
Personally, I really like the Guerini guns. These guns offer Perazzi quality for less than half the price (generally speaking).
Hard to go wrong with that.

Waterengineer
September 2, 2009, 03:40 PM
Jimdo says:

Personally, I really like the Guerini guns. These guns offer Perazzi quality for less than half the price (generally speaking).


Reply:

Hmmm. Would you like to expound on your comment? I and several others here would probably like to better understand your comment before it get torn apart. I'm no great fan of Perazzi - but you did make a rather inflamatory comment without backing it up much. I'm not pointing the finger but you do only have 11 posts. FYI - the crowd around here can come down on you pretty hard for making a controversial comment then not backing it up.

oneounceload
September 2, 2009, 04:17 PM
I've only shot them. They appear to utilize the same "Boss" action, so, IMO, that's a good thing. However, I do not believe they put the same effort in their barrels that Perazzi does. That is one thing Perazzi does very well; so well, you can order your gun with different weights and it will still come nicely balanced.

One thing showing up on another forum are supposed reports on the guns having kaboom issues. I have NO confirmation of that. They DO have exceptional customer service from everyone at my club that I have talked to that has one. If Perazzi/Kreighoff/Kolar is out of the price range, I would put them on the next-tier list with Blaser and Zoli

JMO, YMMV

BigJimP
September 2, 2009, 04:39 PM
"Krieghoss" - now that's rude .....:D .... poor old German guys are just trying to make a living too ..

oneounceload
September 2, 2009, 05:40 PM
Fixed it for ya!.....Was actually thinking about the "pig on a shovel" comparison so often associated with them............:D

BigJimP
September 2, 2009, 06:21 PM
See - now that wasn't so hard .....

but there you go again, with a pig on the shovel routine again - and I keep trying to be nice ...and you drag me back into the muck ....

Waterengineer
September 2, 2009, 06:57 PM
BigJim:

Did you catch that Heir Krieghoff passed? There is a big announcement on the other web forum.

Look Here:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=110&t=189344

The point is you might try to do something about your jones sooner than later because there is no word on what the company is doing, if anything.

BigJimP
September 2, 2009, 07:04 PM
I had not heard that - thanks .....

oneounceload
September 2, 2009, 07:33 PM
Now, Jim - the pig on a shovel is a critique I heard from a well-known gun writer shooting acquaintance.....I just find them heavy - like a Kolar - which, if you're just standing there shooting skeet or trap is doable - no gunbearer needed. If you're shooting sporting, and walking, then you might as well tote a boat anchor...........:D;).....(J/K)

For the money, you really should look at Kolar - with their carrier barrel system and renowned tube sets, you can't go wrong

Dead Eye
September 2, 2009, 09:18 PM
Alright guys. Thanks for the advice! I'm glad I found this forum.

Update--I shot a similar Beretta and Browning on Monday (I ruled the CG out on price). I shot both guns well but was powdering the targets with the Beretta and only cliping them with the Browning. The guy I was shooting with is a Browning die hard and he felt like the Beretta fit me better. I went dove hunting yesterday and I think I made the right choice. I'm so glad I spent the money to have a nice o/u.

Okay...Now I need some choke tube advice. I have bought several choke tubes for my hunting shotguns over the years. I shoot a Kicks high flyer in my SBE for ducks and a Briley Extended tube for Turkeys. At long distances I found that these chokes made a noticable difference. I want to buy a pair of skeet chokes for my new gun. Do you find the extended chokes really pattern better than flush chokes for skeet? What choke tubes would you reccomend? I don't want buy two $100 tubes if a $30 tube will hold the same pattern.

oneounceload
September 2, 2009, 09:27 PM
Glad that Beretta works well for you. First thing - did it come with chokes labeled with the constrictions you want? I say labeled, because what they say and what they do MAY be different. Take the loads you will use and test the chokes on the pattern board. IF you get the correct patterns you want, then no need to buy after market chokes. If you're not getting them, then you have many choices - among the best ones are Briley, Tru-lock, Seminole, Rhino. They aren't necessarily the cheapest, but if you're only buying a few, it's worth it. When I bought some Brileys for one of my Brownings, they ran a special, buy 5 get a 6th free - that was years ago, but some of these folks might be doing something similar in this economy.........

Now, buy some ammo, then buy some more. Maybe a lesson or two, a reloader.....next thing you know you'll be adding a 28 gauge.......and another reloader......and on and on....(don't ask me how I know!) :D

Dead Eye
September 2, 2009, 09:58 PM
Thanks oneounce!

It came with 2 CYL, 1 IC, 1 M, and 1 IM stand flush chokes and 2 browning midas extended in M and IC. I don't have any SKT chokes. I would typically just shoot the CYL (what I do in my autos) but I want to get this one right the first time. I hate to buy two cheap flush chokes and find out the extended throw a much more uniform pattern. I know every gun/ammo combo patterns different but if someone has the same gun and has tested several tube/ammo combo that would save me some time and money.

oneounceload
September 2, 2009, 10:05 PM
Do the Browning chokes fit your Beretta?????:confused: Doesn't sound right - make sure before you try to put them in or you can cause cross-threading - very bad.......

C/IC will work for skeet, but if you are going to do serious stuff, getting some skeet specific can be easily done.

Again, try them all on the pattern board to see what densities you get - they may be just fine. If not, plenty of good ones to choose from.

Also, if you are going to shoot registered, and all 4 gauges, subgauge tubes will be on your future. BigJim may have more experience with them. Friends I shoot with like Brileys, love Kolar's.....set of three can run you the price of your gun, but then, it does give you basically 4 guns........

JWT
September 2, 2009, 10:27 PM
Browning tubes don't fit a Beretta. Briley has chokes for both and they're different.

Dead Eye
September 2, 2009, 10:44 PM
The chokes are made by Browing for a Beretta. THey Say "Beretta-MOD and Beretta-IC right on the choke. I thought the same thing at first.

Waterengineer
September 3, 2009, 06:20 AM
One Oz:

I use to run (and still have) Briley chokes for one gun. Since moving to FL, one of the guys at the range turned me on to Seminole chokes. I run them in a 525 and a Benelli SS. Cheaper and seem to be working well with the loads I shoot.

However, they definitely pattern differently than the Brileys - that is the point of the story.

oneounceload
September 3, 2009, 07:54 AM
Have heard nothing but good things about Seminole, but have no personal experience. I live near Rhino , who's in Williston. Decent sporting course, well-machined chokes and mini-tubes. Little pricey, but that's just the owner......

Waterengineer
September 3, 2009, 09:01 AM
One Oz:

I have been meaning to get to Williston to try that track. Can you comment?

oneounceload
September 3, 2009, 09:18 AM
Set in some live oaks, 14 stations, uses several raised platforms, so if stairs are hard for you, can be a PITA. WHEN he has all of his machines working (another major GRRRR), things go nice, because he has some varied terrain. It looks to me like parts of his property used to have some limerock mining done on it. Bud Wolfe came up from Markham Park to set this up, and I shoot with him on many occasions there. We have a group that shoots every third Friday at a discounted rate (The 18th being the next time). If you're coming this way, you will also want to go a little further north and go to Bradford. Pat there does a wonderful job - has two courses, fully automated, (plus pistols and rifle out to 600 yards). He hosted the state the last two years and the machines ALWAYS work. he also has two 5-stand layouts

BigJimP
September 3, 2009, 12:53 PM
Since you went with the Beretta - I would probably opt for Briley extended chokes - but any of the big name companies are good too ( Seminole, etc ).

I like the extended chokes - easier to see what is in the gun / and I like the look. Are they "better" - not convinced of that in terms of how they pattern / but a little easier to screw in and out ...

It depends on the constriction reading from your barrel to the choke - but for Skeet - I usually shoot 2 Skeet chokes in all of my Brownings / in my Benelli semi-auto I shoot a CYL. You have to use a bore gague / or go to the pattern board to see what you're getting with each choke / and check it in both barrels ( sometimes they're different )...

oneounceload
September 3, 2009, 03:55 PM
As Jim alluded to, the main advantage of the extended chokes is the ability to immediately see, (WITHOUT looking down the barrel), what chokes you have in it and it's easier to change if needed. Typically, on a skeet or trap field, you will not be changing, and rarely on a 5-stand will it be allowed once you've started shooting. Sporting cl;ays is different since every station is unlike the previous one. That is NOT to say you need to change them at every station. 95% of the time, if you start with a SK or IC in one tube and an IC or LM in the other, you won't have to change them. Better to leave them aklone and focus on the bird instead of the choke. However, that being said, courses around here like to throw a station of two :"in your face" - targets at 15 yards or so, followed by a few "separator" ones at 50-60 yards or so. Obviously in the first one, Sk/SK is in and in the second LM or M is in both; those are the exceptions.

Have a great time getting to know your new gun and let us know how you do once you get addicted to the most fun of the shooting sports!

BigJimP
September 3, 2009, 06:46 PM
The NSSA rules for 5 stand allow you to change your chokes - at every shooting station - but oneounce is right, you cannot change them after you call for your first target on that station - and the rule is the same in sporting clays.

Personally, I subscribe to the idea that you should change your chokes for every station / if you need to - with the idea you should put a 30" pattern on the bird at the kill range. But OneOunce is right - 90% of the time I will shoot a combination of IC / Mod in an O/U - or just IC in a semi-auto / and I may alter my shells a little to change the effective pattern a little .

oneounceload
September 3, 2009, 06:58 PM
And as BigJim said......put in the choke, leave it alone....change shells as necessary.....many folks I know use 8-1/2 and 7-1/2.....depending on the situation...

abuyalos
October 6, 2009, 12:27 AM
I am a strong proponent of the Browning O/U shotgun. I have 3 myself and will continue to buy. I have never been that impressed with any of Beretta's O/U's. I have known people to have problems with them. That said, Guerini makes a wonderful shotgun, and I suggest everyone get one and try it out. Guerini makes a $10,000 shotgun for $3,000.

LanceOregon
October 6, 2009, 06:23 AM
I am a strong proponent of the Browning O/U shotgun. I have 3 myself and will continue to buy. I have never been that impressed with any of Beretta's O/U's. I have known people to have problems with them.

That said, Guerini makes a wonderful shotgun, and I suggest everyone get one and try it out. Guerini makes a $10,000 shotgun for $3,000.


So you recommend that everyone do something that you yourself have not even bothered to do?

That is not at all a compelling argument to me.

--

LanceOregon
October 6, 2009, 07:25 AM
Dead Eye:

You got one heck of a good deal there. If you bought your gun new, it would probably have cost you $2,800 And it sounds like it is in like new condition. So that is one nice find. You made a very good choice.

I've had great results with the factory Beretta Extended Optima chokes on my guns. They are easy to screw on and off quickly. And they are high quality choke tubes.

I honestly don't believe that the Briley chokes are any better. And MidWest Gunworks discounts the Beretta chokes from their MSRP of $60.50 each, down to only $44.90 each.

And that is basically the same as the best price one can get on the cheapest Briley Extended Optima choke model. And these Beretta chokes really compare more closely with the more expensive Briley extended choke models.

Here is a link to MidWest Gunworks:

http://www.midwestgunworks.com/page/mgwi/PROD/beretta-choke-tubes/JCOCE


And here is what my set looks like. You can see that they are real quality stainless choke tubes:


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2433/3987111798_53d6b3ea40_o.jpg