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View Full Version : Carrying into friend/acquaintances' homes


Sefner
August 23, 2009, 03:16 PM
What does everyone do when they are invited to a party, dinner, whatever when it comes to concealed carry? Do you ask the home-owner if it's ok? Do you not carry? What are the factors? Obviously the area, your relationship with the person, etc will come into play, but how do they? And lastly, to stay on topic, what are the tactical advantages and disadvantages to any decision (for instance, the last thing you want to do is the courteous thing - asking the home owner - and then end up with them having a few too many adult beverages and start saying "hey let me see your gun" a little too loud)?

sakeneko
August 23, 2009, 03:21 PM
It wouldn't occur to me to ask, any more than I'd ask most store owners whether they allowed concealed carry. It really isn't their business to know that I'm carrying, any more than it would be their business to know about any other personal stuff I carry that doesn't affect them. I'd just be sure that the gun was in fact concealed properly. If there were small children about, I would also carry on my person so that no curious child would find it in a purse or fanny pack that I'd put down for a minute.

rburch
August 23, 2009, 03:50 PM
I think it depends on the person I'm visiting. If I know they don't approve of firearms, or I don't know them well enough to know if they do or not, then I probably won't ask, and will most likely just store my weapon in my car.

If I know they like guns then I'll probably ask them out of politeness.

It wouldn't occur to me to ask, any more than I'd ask most store owners whether they allowed concealed carry. It really isn't their business to know that I'm carrying, any more than it would be their business to know about any other personal stuff I carry that doesn't affect them.

Sakeneko, check your laws, here in Virginia it's illegal to carry on private property if the owner decides he doesn't want people carrying there.

jgcoastie
August 23, 2009, 04:08 PM
In Alaska, you are required to obtain permission to carry in someone's home.

dabigguns357
August 23, 2009, 04:14 PM
I'm going to put this practice of carrying on labor day weekend.We are having a family reunion and i'm going to carry for 2 reasons
(1) because i can and it will be mostly family there.
(2) because 3 or 4 of us usually have either guns on us or in our cars and end up target practicing further down the creek away from the houses and in-laws.

I do carry where ever i go and yes i've had whiners come up and say stupid stuff about it being safe and how quiet the hood is,

(yadda-yadda-yadda)I just keep carrying.If it's a must and people won't leave it alone,then leave it in the car.

redfisher43
August 23, 2009, 04:24 PM
I'm with Sak & Slick Willy,
Don't ask, don't tell.

Trigger Finger
August 23, 2009, 04:53 PM
Don't ask, don't tell!
My friends know what I usually have and if they don't know me well enough that might even be a better reason to carry. Well concealed of course. :D

Phoebe
August 23, 2009, 07:15 PM
I'd be supremely angry if someone came into my home CC without my knowledge. My house is MY castle. And if someone wants to come in with a firearm, they better tell me.

In effect, I want control over what's coming into my house.

And if I had children, I'd be over-the-top frothing if someone came in carrying and I didn't know.

My house, my rules.

sakeneko
August 23, 2009, 07:17 PM
Really, rburch? Interesting, and thanks for posting that information. But I live in Nevada, and the elderly relatives I had in Virginia are long gone to their rewards. So the issue isn't likely to come up for me.

In Nevada, it's legal to carry anywhere that the law doesn't specifically forbid. A private property owner can request that you do not carry on his or her property, and if they catch you carrying, can ask you to leave. If you don't leave, you can be arrested for trespassing. There is no law broken otherwise. I also spend quite a bit of time in California, but there it isn't an issue because no non-resident permits are honored and California doesn't issue CCWs to non-residents either. So I can't carry there by law, and don't.

However, I don't carry into an establishment that has clearly posted signs saying that I can't. I might choose not to go to that establishment, of course, at least here in Nevada. ;-) I also wouldn't carry in someone's home if I knew they strongly disapproved of guns, but to be honest that's a hypothetical situation in my case. Most of my friends (including the leftists) are either indifferent to guns in the hands of law-abiding sane people or approve.

Edward429451
August 23, 2009, 07:29 PM
If it's someones house that has been to my house, then they would know me and expect me to be armed. If it's someone else's house that I go to then I leave it in the car out of respect for them and their house, and if I can't leave it in the vehicle because my spidey sense is tingling...I either do not go in or do not tell and just be polite and respectful with an ace up my sleeve.

Jofaba
August 23, 2009, 07:58 PM
I saw this story on tv and it is actually one of the pivotal accounts that lead to me deciding to get my concealed carry permit.

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/19365762/detail.html

I'm sure if he asked, he would have been told to please keep his gun in his vehicle. And if the perps had accomplished their goal, all the women would have been raped, and all of them would have been killed.

I understand the "this is my house and I want to know what's happening inside it" argument, but you're essentially asking me to check my right to living long enough to leave your house at the door. Who knows who your kid p'd off at school that day? Who knows who might show up while I'm there? We don't get many drive bys or reltaliation mass murders up here in Maine, but I don't want my name listed along with "victim" as the country discusses how "that kind of thing NEVER happens there!".

I'm glad that while my father is against me carrying he hasn't laid down any rules, and knows that I've carried in his house. I can't say what I'd do if he did, but I'm glad that I didn't have to get into that conversation. But if I felt he could even align himself that way, I wouldn't have told him that I had even gotten a carry permit.

Now that I seem to have found a holster that I am (so far) getting comfortable with, I need to have "the talk" with my bosses. With my place of work, there is a lot more at stake than being asked to leave the premises if I'm found out.

Kyo
August 23, 2009, 08:15 PM
don't tell. no one knows anyway.

Phoebe
August 23, 2009, 08:17 PM
Jofaba, I wouldn't be asking someone to give up their right to defend themself. I'd be asking them to ask me...as queen of my own house, to be able to make my own decisions.

Then can then make the decision to not visit me if they don't like my decision.

I still contend, it is MY house. And what happens in MY house is, and should be, up to me.

I don't necessarily have a problem with someone carrying in my house. My ex-bf carried all the time, including in my house. But I was aware and was able to have informed consent. And I trusted him, trusted his skill, and trusted his judgment.

Just yesterday, someone flagged me with her gun. Granted, it wasn't my house...but if she asked me if she could visit my home and carry, the answer would be NO.

Grr! I feel really vehement about this subject, to the point of frothiness. But I guess I've said all that can said.

Kyo
August 23, 2009, 08:23 PM
some people like it when you have a gun. i would get asked at some houses how often i carry. "all the time, everywhere i can" and get smiles back cause they know people around me will have a better chance then not.

Sportdog
August 23, 2009, 08:27 PM
My first instinct in this thread was that I would not carry in someone's house but something happened on the way to my keyboard. The statements that your home is your castle and you want to control what comes into your home sounds good on the surface but when you think of it, it really smacks of GUN CONTROL. Somewhere along the line you are making a judgement against lawful carry and the second amendment rights that I consider near and dear. This is the kind of thinking that the gun control people use to further their cause. Would I carry in someone's home if it were illegal or they asked me not to. No, I would obey the law and honor their wishes but I would be troubled that the state of Michigan thought it was OK for me to carry and a person who I considered a friend did not.

Beentown71
August 23, 2009, 08:30 PM
I have brought it up in casual conversations with almost anyone that I would visit their home. Most were just fine with it because they know me. Others that were a little hesitant with the anti arguements that filled their head because of schools and media filled with...sorry started to rant. Anyway I use it as a teaching moment. Maybe gain another new shooter.

And I agree with Kayla. If I don't really "know" you. You had better ask permission to carry in my home. Again, usually not an issue since I "know" 99% of the people that come into my home.

(Added as an edit) There are people who carry in my home that haven't asked. And with them it is OK. They are my close friends and family. We trust each other. My comments about asking are pointed towards strangers....stranger, danger!

Beentown

Sefner
August 23, 2009, 09:16 PM
Kayla I think you make a really good point. Do you have a set of standards that a person must meet before you let them carry? What would be things that would let you allow them to carry and things that would be red flags (other than poor muzzle awareness :p). Also, how would you MOST PREFER to be approached about the situation? In other words, if I were to ask you if I could carry in your house, how would you like me to ask you if I could? Trying to see if there is a common thread there :p

Jofaba
August 23, 2009, 09:39 PM
Kayla, no offense, but while you don't think that you are making that requirement, you actually are.

Since you are pro-gun, you are just asking your gun friends to let you know what their pro-gun intentions are. That seems entirely reasonable to you. But what you're failing to realize, at least in my eyes, is that you are expecting your visitors to trust that you will side with them.

Say you were anti-gun, or someone with your same spirit and convictions but in the opposing side of the argument were to set similar "need to know" rules. You, or your doppelganger, would indeed be asking me to disarm at the door and subject my life to your ability to protect me from whatever unknowns.

If I came to your house as a friend who knew your gun rights position, I'd probably tell you, knowing that you'd appreciate the honesty, and yet would not ask me to change my ability to continue carrying.

If I came to your house as a stranger, I'd expect to be approached with a harsher sense of guidelines if I "came clean".

If I came to your house as a stranger and a liar, even if that sin was to maintain what I consider a comfortable level of self protection, then I would lie my butt off.

You do, absolutely, have every right in the world to know what happens within your household. But I carry so that I can have what I consider a comfortable level of self protection, regardless of my surroundings.

If your morals intersect my morals, I will protect my morals over yours.

Keep in mind we're talking about whether or not I'd carry a loaded concealed gun into your house. As a fellow gun owner and shooter, you know that only the crappiest guns have a chance of going off on their own, and you've got a 99 percent chance of me carrying around you and your family without a problem occurring that wasn't caused or initiated by someone who would do more harm to you and your family had I not had my firearm.

The debate seems to boil down to a more instinctual debate on whether the leader of the heard should have all power. It's instinctual and genetic. I really think that's the base of the debate. Otherwise, we're just two people expressing similar rights, while trespassing against each others established zones of ownership and regional control.

Beentown71
August 23, 2009, 10:13 PM
I can see how someone could think of this scenario in more than one avenue. There would be no need for a "law" for this in my mind. My house, my laws as far as this is concerned.

Never thought I would say this after my Dad said it for so long but..."It is my house, my rules...If you don't like it leave."

Beentown

Phoebe
August 23, 2009, 10:15 PM
SportDog, I think you fail to understand that I have dominion over my own home. I make the gun control rules in my house. Not you. Not the government. ME!

I also have control over whether you can bring your dog, your kids, your drugs, your booze, and if I'm a vegetarian, maybe I decide I don't want meat in my house when I have a BBQ. I could even decide I don't want blue clothes in my house. I can have any crazy or reasonable rules that I want, because it's my house. (How many different ways can I say this? Apparently many!)

I cannot comprehend how anyone could possibly argue with the fact that what happens on my property is my decision...not yours. :confused:

Jofaba, if you don't like the rules of my house, you don't have to visit my house. What is difficult about that? How do your rights to bear arms trump my rights as the owner of my property and the final authority over what happens on my property?

Sefner, no particular standard and in fact, it would be a rare circumstance where I would tell someone, "no." Most gun folks I know are responsible and skilled.

If I had young children, my notions of who I'd allow to carry would probably narrow considerably, but since i don't have kids, I haven't put much thought into what my criteria would be.

My #1 issue is that I believe I have the right to control what's going on in my house.

Sefner, if you just indicated to me that you usually (or always) carry, you wouldn't even need to really ask. I could then just nod and smile or ask you to leave your gun in the car or whatever. I don't think it has to be some big thing. I just want to know what's in my house. Though aside from muzzle awareness, my other concern would be someone leaving the gun in an unsecure place...esp if I had young kids.

I am quite new to all of this, but some of what I've seen indicates that many people are not all that careful...about anything. I've seen finger on the trigger and poor muzzle control, even by some supposedly experienced people with way more experience than I have. And some of you want me to trust these people in my house?

Meh.

p.s. If you know someone is anti-gun, do you still think it's just fine to carry in their house?

p.s.s. It's not (directly) about guns. It's about my having authority over my own property and some of you don't seem to respect that or even understand that.

MY HOUSE. MY RULES. THE END.

BlackFeather
August 23, 2009, 10:25 PM
I dont care if someone is carrying in my house. However if it was a social gathering I would ask to have it put away, whether in my gun case, or another secured area. If I were going to someones house odds are they know, and if they have kids that hug or like to be played with, like most boys do, I would secure it somewhere else first...

fastforty
August 23, 2009, 10:25 PM
Most of my friends know my background, training and abilities. They are happy that I carry when I visit them.

We have one family of friends that have a LOT of kids & one parent has fleece instead of hair (you know what I mean). When visiting them, I've always stopped a block shy of their house and secured (locked) my unloaded weapon before I completed my journey. We highly value this friendship, and the last thing I would want to happen is for the sheep to start bleating "He had a GUN in my HOUSE?????" <Add blood curdling accent here> "My CHIIIILDDDRRRRRENNNNNNNNN!!!". After 4-5 years of knowing this family, the fact that I carry finally came out (the non-sheep parent suspected it all along). The fact that I could honestly say that I had never carried a firearm into their house probably saved our relationship with them, just the same.

There have been a few places that I've carried where what tiny chance of an ND would have been a real BIG deal, so I carried without a round chambered (hey, someone could bump you causing you to fall down steps, dislodge a broom stick on your way down, the end of the broomstick could find your trigger.... pretty far fetched, but freak ND's DO happen).

ATW525
August 23, 2009, 10:27 PM
The way I see it, a concealed handgun is like underwear: whether I choose to wear it is nobody's business but my own and I darn sure ain't going to ask permission first. That said, a home owner is more than welcome to express their desire to keep their home firearm free, and I'll be more than happy to stop associating with them.

Mello2u
August 23, 2009, 10:31 PM
We have all got to agree that there is a difference between a private individual determining who and what enters his/her home and the "STATE" making laws which infringe upon the right of the People to bear arms.

An individual has no right to enter the land or home of someone else. An individual who is invited to enter the land or into the home of someone may have that permission revoked at any time for any reason.

The 2nd Amendment prohibits the federal government (and maybe the 50 states too) from infringing the People's right to keep and bear arms. A home owner who prohibits your entry into his home due to your possession of a firearm is not a 2nd Amendment issue.

I think it is a courtesy to let the home owner know that you are carrying a weapon. If they don't want you to carry a weapon in their home you are free to leave or store the weapon in your vehicle. I would choose to leave.

Phoebe
August 23, 2009, 10:37 PM
Whew! Thank you Mello! That is a far more elegant statement of what I've been trying to say.

Privately, I've also been told some may worry that it's some slippery slope from homeowner's rights to jail for accidentally carrying into someone's house. It may be a somewhat reasonable argument. But I still believe my house is my kingdom and I get to rule it however I want -- reasonably or unreasonably, as is my right.

Beentown71
August 23, 2009, 10:45 PM
It sounds almost like it is Woobie time.

If I go to someones HOME and they would rather me not carry. Kids, anti's,whatever the reason so be it. I will try to use it as a teaching moment each time I go to there home. A little truth every once in a while may just change that persons mind.

I can't believe that people are so quick to possibly loose a relationship over "I can't carry my firearm in your home well I am not stayin":confused: I have a great friend that has a wife that is completely brainwashed. Can't see what he does in her:confused: Anyway I would not be allowed to carry in their home. Over the years I have talked with her and now I can hunt on their land. Heck next year she could be shooting with us.

They are very important to my family and that time I have with them I can leave the gun locked in the car.

I understand some people are set in their ways. If it's not my way, way of thinking, my rules, then I'm not playing:eek: I would think it would benefit us all and our rights to turn the tables and do some teaching.

I am tired and starting to rant. My prose cannot express my thoughts so have a good night.

Beentown

BTW...I am taking my woobie and going home:p

ATW525
August 23, 2009, 11:12 PM
I will try to use it as a teaching moment each time I go to there home.

More power to you for trying to teach people. That's not for me, though. In social situations I don't even particularly care for discussing either guns or gun control with other gun enthusiasts, let alone antis. If somebody has their panties in a wad about firearms, I'd prefer to just avoid them.

Trashcan-man
August 23, 2009, 11:24 PM
I agree that it is the homeowner's right to not have guns in the house if they don't want them there. However, I also do not really go around broadcasting that I am carrying, very few people actually know I carry and my girlfriend is the only one who knows how much/when I carry. That being said, unless a home owner specifically tells me that it is not ok to carry in their house I will do so until they tell me it is not ok. I look at it like this, if I own a dog and I want to take it everywhere with me then I will. If I go to someone's house with said dog and they do not like it then they can ask me to leave and I will. As far as safety goes, I am not gonna draw the gun unless I need it, so muzzle direction and trigger safety will not be a concern. The only place I use a fanny pack is if I am going on a long road trip I use it on the trip or if I want to run to the store quickly without straping on a holster.

Dr. Strangelove
August 23, 2009, 11:35 PM
I have been on both sides of this issue. Years ago, during a New Years Eve party here at the house that got rather loud, some neighbors from a few streets over showed up. Great! The more the merrier! Until someone noticed one of the guys had a pistol tucked into his waistband. They were told they were welcome to stay, but gun wasn't. An argument followed, they left. It's not open for debate, my house, my rules. If you don't tell me you are carrying and I find out, don't expect to come back.

On the other side of the coin, I have a friend I visit in middle GA a few times a year, mostly to go deer hunting. She's a single mom with elementary school age daughters. I lock my rifles in my vehicle, in a locked case, and lock the bolts (for the rifles) in the glove-box. I also make sure there is nothing in my bags that would be objectionable should her daughters get curious. She has invited me to bring the rifles in the house, but I feel more comfortable with them in the vehicle.

I believe it's extremely rude to bring a firearm into another person's home without their knowledge, even if they are pro-gun. I don't take my guns into anyone else's home without their knowledge and I expect the same from others.

chemgirlie
August 24, 2009, 12:08 AM
I open carry as CC isn't an option in WI. If anybody isn't okay with me carrying into their home it's usually the first thing that's brought up about 1.5 seconds after they answer the door.

You're king of your own castle and I will either respect the laws you set or choose to go back to my castle (guns are welcome in my castle unless I specifically tell you otherwise).

If I am asked to ditch the gun I ask if they would like me to move my car off of their property as my gun (in a car lockbox) will be in it. I've never had anybody want me to move the car though.

Perhaps I've brought other items into people's homes that would have been unwelcome; I just never thought to ask.

For example, when I visited a friend in seminary school I had birth control pills in my purse. Would he have been okay with it (Catholics are opposed to birth control)? Asking never crossed my mind. Would a vegan friend have been okay with me carrying beef jerky into her house?

Wuchak
August 24, 2009, 12:17 AM
Enter the P-3AT in a pocket holster with an anti-print panel. It's in my pocket and it's my business. It's safe, secure, impossible to detect as a firearm, impossible for children to access, and since I don't tell anyone that I carry other than a couple of family members nobody has a clue anyways. I don't ask if I can carry my wallet, my keys, my pocket knife, my flashlight, etc. so I'm not going to ask about the pistol in my pocket either.

I remember going to a business dinner once where one of the women in attendance mentioned that she had just applied for her CCW. Our English colleagues at the table were aghast that we Americans carried concealed firearms. After a very brief discussion, which I mainly stayed out of, we went on to other topics and I just sat smiling with my P-3AT in my pocket. I admit I was tempted to say, "well I'm carrying a pistol now" just to see the looks on their faces but I stuck to my "my pocket my business rule" and kept my mouth closed.

ATW525
August 24, 2009, 12:27 AM
Perhaps I've brought other items into people's homes that would have been unwelcome; I just never thought to ask.

For example, when I visited a friend in seminary school I had birth control pills in my purse. Would he have been okay with it (Catholics are opposed to birth control)? Asking never crossed my mind. Would a vegan friend have been okay with me carrying beef jerky into her house?

The way I see it, at my house it's my castle, my rules and my duty to inform visitors of said rules. When to go to someone else's house I likewise expect to be informed of any special rules they have. In the absense of any specific guidence from the property owner I behave how I would expect people to behave when they visit my own house.

If a property owner got upset and asked me to leave and never come back because I broke some rule they never bothered to inform me of, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

jgcoastie
August 24, 2009, 12:34 AM
I believe it's extremely rude to bring a firearm into another person's home without their knowledge, even if they are pro-gun. I don't take my guns into anyone else's home without their knowledge and I expect the same from others.

Agreed.

If it is absolutely necessary to carry a weapon into a home where firearms are not welcome, a compact expandable baton (such as the ASP F16, collapses to roughly 6") would be a viable option. Scabbards are available for IWB carry. So would a concealed can of OC spray.

What? You mean you've never trained to use non-lethal weapons? Aren't you just the well-rounded CC permit-holder?:rolleyes::barf:

I guess it is true, give someone a hammer and every problem they encounter looks like a nail.

While it is optimal to have a firearm to deal with deadly threats, 90% of the threats we will encounter can be easily dispatched with the use of non-lethal devices. However if I am faced with a situation involving an attacker armed with a firearm, I am confident that I can handle it with the training I have received with the non-lethal weapon (baton) I carry. Let's face it, if someone is going to shoot me out of the blue, I'll likely have a hole in me before I can do anything about it.

Everyone needs a few more tools in their toolbox than just a hammer.

Rich Miranda
August 24, 2009, 01:39 AM
My friends all know that I carry. If we are indeed friends, then they most certainly know my love of firearms and that I have my CHL and use it. All of them are OK with me carrying. Most of them are gun-owners, if not CHLers, anyway.

As for 'acquaintances' I don't ask permission or refrain from carrying; I just carry as quietly and unobtrusively as I always do. Ironically, I do agree with the "their home, their rules" concept. If I ever get caught (don't hold your breath) and they don't like it, I'll just have to deal with it.

But, to be frank, I sincerely doubt anyone will ever know unless I specifically tell them.

Jofaba
August 24, 2009, 06:05 AM
What I'm trying to figure out though is whether it's being suggested that when you get to someones house you announce that you're carrying a gun before either stepping onto their property or entering their house? I'm not even sure that's legal (announcing). Doesn't that break the concept of concealed? Verbal printing, if you will?

That may sound like stretching it but I'm serious. Let's say you're taking your kids trick or treating and your daughter needs to use someone's bathroom, and you obviously don't want to just let your kid into a stranger's house alone, do you announce that you're bringing a firearm into their house?

Isn't this similar to the debate about "No Guns" signs at private businesses?

I should put a disclaimer here as we continue this conversation: I am still fairly new to guns, and VERY new to concealed carry. I haven't started daily carry yet because of this very reason. I'm still researching where it's legal to carry, and am worried about a few things like store metal detectors, banks, and what happens if I miss a private business's No Guns sign. I don't want any of those questions answered in this thread as it's off topic. I'm just saying that so those disagreeing with me know where I'm coming from, and that I am still forming my opinions and personal rules/polices regarding carrying.

ATW525
August 24, 2009, 07:46 AM
Isn't this similar to the debate about "No Guns" signs at private businesses?

Property rights are property rights, so it's along the same lines. I personally would respect a business owner who posts a "No Guns" sign, and shop elsewhere (after all, why would I want to give them my money?). Make the rules for entering your property clear and I'll happily comply, just don't expect me to inform you whether I'm carrying or not. That is my private business and no one elses.

skydiver3346
August 24, 2009, 08:32 AM
:confused: Well, if someone is injured in your home (as a guest) and you knowingly let someone else bring in the gun that injured (or worse) that guest, (then I think you would be also held responsible in the long run).

Of course not knowing someone is carrying is different, but if they inform you they are carrying, then you must make the call on if its okay (and therefore take the responsibility of that decision).

In my home, only I have access to a weapon everyone knows it. Why, because its MY home! That way, there is only one gun available (if needed) and I don't have to worry about others carrying and/or the problems that could arise by accidental discharge, etc. That is the way I handle this situation in my home and there is never any problems. We do get sort of rowdy from time to time during these get togethers, football games, etc..... Usually, there are lots of folks attending and so far, no complaints. They know the rules and can either stay home or come and have a great time, (their decision). :)

Tamara
August 24, 2009, 08:35 AM
I can't think of anybody I know off the top of my head that would object to me packing heat in their crib.

I imagine there are those kind of people, but I don't generally associate with them on my own time; I seem to be able to keep my social calendar plenty full without straying outside my own species. :o

Beentown71
August 24, 2009, 08:39 AM
I see everyones point. It is very hard to summarize all the probable/possible situations.

If I am going to someones house for the first time I don't carry into there home. I assume the risk until I get to know them more. This situation usually comes up because of the kids.

I.E. My girls are in dance class. They meet a little girl they hit it off with and my wife sets a play date. I will not carry into their home. The main reason are the kids. If we all get playing and someone makes me (kid jumps on me and wants to know why I have a gun...)I don't want the issues. The highlight is that I ended up shooting the families Ithaca O/U on THEIR range. Turns out they were into the shooting sports also.

I do not visit homes where I feel like I NEED to carry because of an increased threat level.

Beentown

Mannlicher
August 24, 2009, 08:48 AM
don't ask, don't tell. I don't understand all the hand wringing and angst about this issue. I certainly don't understand discussing stuff like this with folks.

Tamara
August 24, 2009, 08:50 AM
I do not visit homes where I feel like I NEED to carry because of an increased threat level.

I never go anyplace that I feel I might NEED to carry.

ZeSpectre
August 24, 2009, 08:59 AM
Sheesh, when I allow someone into my house I'm trusting them with a lot (nearly everything I have) so if I can't trust someone enough to allow them to carry then they sure as hell aren't going to get an invite to any of my events.

pax
August 24, 2009, 09:25 AM
Me neither, Tamara.

I don't carry "to" friends' houses. I do, however, carry every day and sometimes visit friends while I'm carrying.

As for the rest, here's my position: wherever I go, I am my own private property. What's under my outer clothing is my business, not anyone else's. I don't tell people what color underwear I have on, or what style of bra I am wearing, when I visit their homes. And I don't brag about anything else I'm wearing underneath my outer clothing. That's private and it stays private. I also don't get pre-approval for the contents of my purse (hint: there might be drugs in there! -- at least an Advil and some Rx antihistamines and possibly other things poisonous to the homeowner's children). And I don't ask permission to keep my pocketknife in my pocket, either.

If you post a "no guns" sign outside your home, I'll respect it. You will be morally wrong to do it, but I'll respect it -- by never darkening your door again. I'll do that not to punish you, nor in a fit of pique, but simply as a recognition that we have no functional friendship, because you will be telling me that you do not trust me. I don't keep friends who refuse the gift of trust. Life's too short.

If you do forbid others to be armed on your property, I believe you are the moral equivalent of King George refusing arms to the colonists, because the land where they lived was his land and he didn't want those people armed on his land. He was morally wrong to do that -- and so are you, for exactly the same reasons. But life's too short to argue about it, and I won't.

Some of the people who have posted in this thread apparently want to keep friends they don't trust, even after they have insulted those friends and demanded control over what's underneath their friends' outer clothing. Now that's a shocking notion.

Finally, I'd like to quote my 'net-friend Matt G, who runs a nice blog at http://maypeacebewithyou.blogspot.com . Matt was writing about another topic, but what he said has so much applicability to some of the posts made here that I just have to quote him.



I remember having a conversation with my liberal buddy in Boy Scouts, at age 14, one evening on a campout. He was shaken when I made my point thusly:

"If you're so afraid of the ability to do harm, then why weren't you afraid that I might slit your throat with my pocketknife or my scatchet while you shared our tent last night?"

"You're scaring me, Matt!"

"Why?!? Because it just occurred to you that I have the ability to do you harm? Nothing has changed about me from five minutes ago, when I was your apparently harmless buddy. You've just realized that I possess the simple capability to hurt you. Now, in fact, I have no intention of ever harming you, and you don't ever have to worry about that from me, even if we stop being friends. But it's going to be a long, scary life for you if you can't get through your head that just because people can, doesn't mean people will. And for the most part, everyone can."



So yes, I do go armed onto friends' property. And I don't announce my carry status. But if you ask me to leave -- I will.

pax

TailGator
August 24, 2009, 09:32 AM
Property owners definitely have a right to forbid firearms on their property, but why would we want to do so with an invited guest? Your guest (a) has enough training to hold a CCP, and (b) is your friend. What is the threat? In any of the events that would make you need your own weapon, you now have an ally. And my firearm is safest under my control; it is not a threat to kids or anyone else when it is securely holstered on my person, and is in fact less so than if I left it in a car subject to burglary.

The situation in an earlier post, of a person not well know to the host showing up at a yard party with a weapon in plain view (and do I take it correctly that they were drinking more than a little bit?) is quite different and can reasonably be treated differently than that of an invited guest with a properly concealed weapon (and who maintains sobriety.)

As a guest, when and how do you announce that you are carrying? I don't walk into the bank and shout, "I have a gun!" It is concealed, and things could go badly if concealment is broken. How do you make that announcement in someone's home, and why? If it is concealed as it should be, you should be able to enjoy dinner or table games or nearly anything that doesn't require a change of clothes (I'm thinking pool party here, for those of you with dirty minds) without your host even knowing it is present. While I am there, I feel a certain sense of responsibility for my host; they are under my protection, however slight the risk of problems, with or without their knowledge.

To those who think it rude not to announce your carry status on arrival, I have to say I don't feel I have been rude to have been out with friends, either in public or in someone's home, without announcing that I am carrying. I would find it more socially awkward to announce my carry status without being prompted than to just quietly go about the business of socializing in what is for me my normal status.

I ask those who said they feel rudely treated when someone brings a firearm into their home unannounced: How did you then find out they were armed? Do you announce your carry status as a guest, and how? When attending a party, do you announce your carry status only to the host, or to other guests as well? Not being a wise guy - genuinely interested in how you think this is to be handled if you feel it is rude to have it kept a secret from you.

Phoebe
August 24, 2009, 09:51 AM
Pax, that's an interesting idea, ("I'm my own private property"), but I think the King George analogy is false. We are discussing property owners, not monarchies.

I'm sure you are a very responsible gun owner and carrier. I'm also sure there are people who are packing and drinking, packing who set their gun down somewhere and forget about it, people who are packing and on drugs, people who haven't mastered basic safety rules, etc.

It's a false analogy to compare it to your underwear because your underwear will never have an AD or ND. You can be as negligent, ditzed out, forgetful, unfocused, but your underwear are not going to hurt anyone or anything.

Do you seriously think that every legal gun owner is a responsible decision maker? (I'd like to think most of us are. But that's still most, not all.)

Further, there are many people who are anti's and I believe they have a right to not allow guns into their home.

The overall argument seems to be about whether individual autonomy and authority over one's own property reigns supreme, or whether the 2nd amendment trumps individual property rights.

The whole argument confuses me.

Phoebe
August 24, 2009, 09:52 AM
p.s. I don't think anyone has said you should announce your carry status as you walk in the door.

I sure haven't said that!!

Tamara
August 24, 2009, 10:00 AM
I'm also sure there are people who are packing and drinking, packing who set their gun down somewhere and forget about it, people who are packing and on drugs, people who haven't mastered basic safety rules, etc.

I don't generally socialize with those people, wouldn't let them in my house, and can't really see any reason I'd want to go to theirs. :confused:

poptime
August 24, 2009, 10:04 AM
I have friends whose policy at home is for everyone to take their shoes off at the door. They have no compunction about making the policy known to guests. If someone wants their guests to disarm on entering, they should make that request, and guests should respect it.

TailGator
August 24, 2009, 10:06 AM
I don't think anyone has said you should announce your carry status as you walk in the door.

Not trying to fuss with you, Kayla, but how else do you know your host's feelings on the matter? I was particularly addressing those who said they feel they have been rudely treated when someone else carries into their home without advanced permission. There seems no way to gain that permission without bringing up one's status.

The overall argument seems to be about whether individual autonomy and authority over one's own property reigns supreme, or whether the 2nd amendment trumps individual property rights.

I doubt that you will get any serious arguments, either here or in a court, that property owners have the right to set the rules on their own property, including how firearms are treated. My point was that, whether in a business or in someone's home, proper concealment keeps it from being brought up and becoming an issue. Drugs, heavy drinking, and general irresponsibility DO NOT mix with firearms (or driving, or lots of other things that require good decision making) and are an issue at least somewhat independent of banning firearms from a property; i.e., in my mind you are removing firearms from an unsafe situation rather than a setting by taking a stand in that situation, and I am 100% behind you.

pax
August 24, 2009, 10:26 AM
Pax, that's an interesting idea, ("I'm my own private property"), but I think the King George analogy is false. We are discussing property owners, not monarchies.

Kayla, the reasoning King George used is exactly the same as the private property owner's reasoning. The reason the king forbade the peasants to have arms was because they were on his property. That was what gave him the "moral" right to disarm the peasantry. I reject that reasoning, and do not believe that anyone has the moral right to disarm anyone else. It isn't enough to say, "it's not the same," because I'm not really seeing the difference here. That's the reasoning he used, and it was wrong when he used it in regards to his property. Why would it be right when someone else used it in regards to their property?

However, even though I don't admit that anyone has the moral right to disarm another person, I do recognize the moral, legal, and practical right of any homeowner to forbid certain people from entering their property.

It's a false analogy to compare it to your underwear because your underwear will never have an AD or ND. You can be as negligent, ditzed out, forgetful, unfocused, but your underwear are not going to hurt anyone or anything.

Which is why I also specifically mentioned the drugs in my purse and the pocketknife in my pocket. Those things are dangerous! If I am actively malicious, I can kill everyone in the place with that pocketknife. If I am not malicious, just stupid, I can maim you or one of your loved ones by accident. If I am negligent, ditzed out, forgetful, or unfocused, the contents of my purse can kill my friends' children. And yet, somehow that's okay. We don't demand that our aging parents remove all the powerful prescription drugs from their suitcases before they can visit our homes. It's no different: those things are dangerous, and those things can kill people either maliciously or accidentally.

What I'm getting at is that people get emotional because they have been enculturated to be afraid of the "GUN!!!" But no matter how we parse it, the disagreement is truly NOT about bringing something dangerous onto the property. It's about that scary, frightening, Hollywood-ized fearsome thing, the GUN!!!!

Something else: did you hear yourself say that some people might be "negligent, ditzed out, forgetful, or unfocused"? I agree! People might be any of those things. But people like that aren't my friends. I don't make friends with people I don't trust. Why would anyone do that? I don't invite people like that into my home.

And ... I also don't make friends with people who don't trust me. If they think I am "negligent, ditzed out, forgetful, or unfocused," to the point where I cannot be trusted with ordinary everyday objects, I'm not really going to enjoy hanging out with them.

It's not about the presence of a tool. It's about the character of the person who owns the tool.

Further, there are many people who are anti's and I believe they have a right to not allow guns into their home.

On a legal level, of course they do.

On a moral level, nope. They have a right not to allow certain people on their property. But I do not believe that any person has the moral right to disarm another, absent criminal behavior.

And on a practical level, no one in the entire history of the world has ever succeeded in keeping weapons off their property. The foorah over firearms is foolish (try saying that ten times fast!), because anyone determined to harm you can do so with an amazing number of objects in your home. -- Do you know what's the second most common murder weapon used in stabbing deaths in America?

Finally -- and please believe me, I'm not being snarky here -- but I'm curious how to reconcile this:

p.s. I don't think anyone has said you should announce your carry status as you walk in the door.

I sure haven't said that!!

Kayla, as a practical matter, you've said you'd be mad if your friends didn't tell you that they were armed. Understandable -- but such a position necessarily implies that they do tell you at some point before they enter your property. When and how are you expecting them to tell you, if not at the door?

pax

Sefner
August 24, 2009, 10:36 AM
Thanks for all the input on the topic guys. A few comments from the OP as I've watched this unfold :).

If we are going to argue, as kayla said, over individual autonomy versus the rights of property owners, kayla has that debate won. As much as we'd all like to carry on everyone else's property we simply do not have the right to carry on someone else's property without their permission (at least in the traditional American philosophy. Whether or not we do actually have a moral right to this is a debate for another time). The question then becomes "What is permission?" and that's what I'd like to focus on (before we start beating a dead horse). Obviously a sign saying "no guns" or a bumper sticker on the car that says "Brady Campaign" or "Obama '08" is a pretty clear indication (slight troll there with the Obama one :D). Some new points of discussion:

Do you simply assume permission unless otherwise stated as poptime analogized (which is a word) with the shoe example? Why? What about, as some have mentioned, "politeness"?

As TailGator has been trying to ask (and the question I am also most interested in), HOW do you tell people you are carrying (obviously assuming you chose to do so)? Do you tell just the host? Everyone? Do you mention it ahead of time? Try to ask indirectly?

Lastly, assuming that the home owner does NOT let you carry, how do you approach situation then? More specifically how do you education them? How do you say "Hey, it's not me, the lawful CHL holder, that you have to fear, it's the person who comes in here brandishing the gun uninvited."?

We can argue over whether or not we have a right to carry on someone else's property all day, and the debate here has been very good. But we should try to move on before it gets a little out of hand :)

I think WE would all, upon hearing that a guest is an CHLer, would be more than happy to have them in the house (most of them at least). But remember, we aren't talking about us. We are talking about a slightly random person. From Jim Brady himself to Sarah Palin and everywhere in between. What approach works best for MOST people and avoids the MOST confrontation (because all confrontation can't be avoided)?

Phoebe
August 24, 2009, 10:40 AM
Pax, you don't sound snarky. So, no worries. If anything, you're moving my line a tiny bit more than anyone else has. ;)

I don't need someone to ANNOUNCE anything. I don't know if they even need to ASK me, per se. If I generally know someone conceals, that opens the door for me to ASK them. And, in my life to date, that's how it's worked.

None of my carrying friends have asked permission, but they did let me know they carry. I've never asked any of them to leave their weapons at home or in their vehicle.

It's not some big HONKING deal that needs to be shouted from the rooftops every time someone enters my home.

Let me give you a different example -- I mentioned in a different post, I was out somewhere with a man who I think was carrying. I would not want him in my house carrying because I think he's a bit off. Too much back story, but if the guy does come to my house, I will directly ask him and tell him he can't carry in my house.

I have no problem with him being in my home, but I would have a problem with him being armed and in my home.

Also, I'm not thinking someone is going to try to kill me. If I had that concern, they wouldn't be in my house!!

But back to my real issue. It isn't about drinking or being high or careless. My real issue simply remains that it's my house. To me, the rest is just fluffy theoreticals.

And sorry, Pax, but the King George thing makes no sense to me. His logic may have been the same, but even you admit that a homeowner should have the right to disallow firearms. Your argument is whether one should let the homeowner know. (Unless I've misunderstood you.)

MajorWhiteBoy
August 24, 2009, 10:41 AM
i'd like to think that i have the right to tell folks what they can and can't bring into my yard or house. i'd expect others to feel the same.

the way you guys are talking about disarming vs letting rules be known and expecting folks to follow them doesn't seem appropriate, unless you're talking about physically disarming them yourself. i don't see saying "if you come over, please don't bring your gun" as disarming someone. it's their choice to come and leave the guns at home.

if i knew someone didn't want my guns in their house, i wouldn't do it. i doubt i'd ask them first, though, and i doubt they'd know i was armed.

pax
August 24, 2009, 11:31 AM
if i knew someone didn't want my guns in their house, i wouldn't do it. i doubt i'd ask them first, though, and i doubt they'd know i was armed.

Major, that's my bottom line too. But I go one step further: I won't visit them unarmed.

I have no problem with him being in my home, but I would have a problem with him being armed and in my home.

Kayla, I can't follow this logic at all. If I don't trust the guy, I don't trust him and that's that. I don't want him around. I'm not worried about things, I worry about people and their intentions. In the case of (sorry guys) adult males specifically, I'm always aware that almost any adult male can physically overpower me. Because of that awareness ...

A story.

A few years back, a friend got pulled over for a broken taillight while I was in the vehicle. The officer came up to the window & my friend handed over his driver's license and his carry permit. The officer glanced at the DL, and did a double take at the carry permit -- then took a step back, hand on weapon, and (obvious change in physical demeanor and voice meant he was worried) demanded to know if my friend was carrying. Friend said he was, asked how to proceed. The officer disarmed him. As soon as my friend was disarmed, the officer visibly and dramatically relaxed, obviously no longer worried in the slightest, body language not careful or on guard. The officer KNEW the scene was safe now, because he had taken control of "the" weapon. And yet ... all the while, I sat in the passenger seat, equally armed as my friend had been. The officer never addressed me, never really looked at me, and never asked my carry status. And yet he became totally relaxed as soon as he thought he'd gotten control of "THE" weapon. If you define safety as everyone being disarmed, the officer hadn't achieved safety. But he thought he had. And because he thought everyone was disarmed and therefore defenseless, he dramatically relaxed his vigilance, thus becoming far more at risk than he would have been if he'd stayed on full alert knowing there were weapons on scene.

So back to what I was saying. I'm always aware that almost any adult male can physically overpower me, if he tries hard enough. So if I don't trust the guy to begin with, disarming him really isn't going to do anything for me, safety-wise, and I know it. If the guy sets off my alarms, it isn't safe for me to hang around him, because I can't disarm him entirely -- he will still have his own body, which is larger than mine and more powerful.

Hopefully you follow my logic here; I'm talking about keeping yourself safe! Hinky people are hinky, and should be avoided. Disarming them doesn't make them less dangerous to you. It simply means you don't know what implements they'll use to attack, if that's their plan.

Sorry - that was off topic but needed to be said. Stay safe, k?

If I generally know someone conceals, that opens the door for me to ASK them. And, in my life to date, that's how it's worked.

:cool:

That's generally how it will work -- among people who do trust each other.

Just don't expect that you actually know who among your friends generally carries. My sweet old grandmother kept a .25 under her mattress for many years -- and voted Democrat for all those years, too. She told me once that she carried for awhile after she left her abusive first husband. Quite a woman, grandma was. :)

One time at church I told someone I was taking a class; they asked what class and since I didn't have a deflection prepared I told them it was a handgun class. I was soon surrounded by a chattering group of women who each wanted me to know about the firearms they carried in their purses! :D Just about blew me away, because of course there were women in that group that I'd NEVER have expected it of!

What I'm saying is that as the homeowner you can't necessarily trust that you know who is or isn't carrying, or even who is likely to be carrying. You can ask the ones you wonder about, but it's a sure bet that you'll miss some of 'em.

Further, as the person who is armed, you can't simply go around telling the whole world about it, just in case someone might object. If you get in the habit of telling everyone, you no longer have a concealed firearm. And it becomes a huge hairy deal rather than simply something you wear every day.

Keep your eye on the people, notsomuch on the objects.

HOW do you tell people you are carrying (obviously assuming you chose to do so)? Do you tell just the host? Everyone? Do you mention it ahead of time? Try to ask indirectly?


These days, my friends and relatives all know what I do for a living, so it's different for me. Easy to be cavalier about the "how" when everyone in my life already knows what I do and why I do it.

A long time back, when I was first getting into concealed carry, the single most uncomfortable moment I've ever had while carrying came when I tried to be a good (relative) and inform my (relative) that I was carrying in her home. She didn't quite kick me out of the house, but it was a near thing. I think the only thing that saved me was her knowledge that if she'd tried, her husband and mine would probably both have pitched a fit on my behalf. I felt guilty about that for years (still do, in fact) because there really was no need to make her so uncomfortable. She didn't need to know I was carrying in the first place! My gun was going to stay out of sight and under my control at all times. There was nothing she would have had to do differently simply because I had a gun with me. It was only my own selfish need for approval that made me tell her.

pax

Wuchak
August 24, 2009, 11:32 AM
If you are unsure about your ability to keep your gun concealed and under your complete control at all times e.g. you're one of the morons who unholsters it and sets it on the back of the toilet where it can be forgotten, then you should leave it at home or in the car. This is especially true if there are going to be any children present.

If you know you will be having some adult beverages leave it at home or in the car.

Personally if I invited someone over and they said, "Do you mind if I carry my gun?" I'd find it really creepy.

ATW525
August 24, 2009, 11:34 AM
Do you simply assume permission unless otherwise stated as poptime analogized (which is a word) with the shoe example? Why? What about, as some have mentioned, "politeness"?

I do assume permission unless otherwise informed. Why? Because it's consistant with the law, at least in my state. If a property owner wants to restrict otherwise lawful activity on their property they are required to inform people either verbally or through posted signage. When it comes to my CCW piece, security trumps politeness at all times. For other firearms I wouldn't have a problem asking for permission first.

What approach works best for MOST people and avoids the MOST confrontation (because all confrontation can't be avoided)?

I know the approach that works for me is: don't ask, don't tell and don't even talk about firearms unless somebody strikes up a conversation about them and then keep my participation in said conversation as brief as possible. Since I began following that philosophy, I have avoided confrontation 100% of the time.

Mello2u
August 24, 2009, 11:39 AM
This thread concerns the permission of the land owner to extend an invite to two classes of relationship: 1) friends and 2) acquaintances.

May I assume that your friends are people who have earned your trust? This trust might extent to their carrying weapon on your property and home. If we assume that your friends are people that you know well enough to know their conviction about concealed carry and do not specifically tell them the invitation is to exclude carrying of a firearm, then it is implicit that the invitation includes permission for them to carry a weapon.

Acquaintances are people who have not yet earned your trust.

When extending an invitation to a friend I assume that the invitation includes their carrying a weapon. An invitation to an acquaintance would not automatically include that permission to carry a weapon.

An analogy as the the extent of permission granted to persons on your land could be seen in hunting versus hiking. The invitation is at the whim of the land owner and can include certain parameters or not; also the duration of the permission is up to the land owner. [I am assuming a relationship here where the land owner is not receiving compensation of the use of his property and no contract and reciprocal duties are involved.]

Pax,
While your analogy of the King's exercise of his power over his subjects on his land is illustrative to a point, as with all analogies it breaks down. Fortunately, we in the U.S.A. live in a classless society. We have the 14th Amendment with its equal protection clause. Unfortunately, we have a federal government which is acting more like an Imperial government which regards the People as property and subjects to be ruled much like a king did in feudal times.

I agree that is is morally wrong to insist upon the disarming of a responsible law-abiding adult.

I submit that disarming a responsible law-abiding adult is not within the power of an invitation (Private Action) which excludes a guest from carrying a handgun in your home. It is the choice of the guest to remain or leave.

This is to be distinguished from "State Action" which disarms the people and the people have no choice whether to stay or leave.

Here we have a conflict of rights between one individual's property rights and another individual's right to bear arms. Neither is absolute.

flyguyskt
August 24, 2009, 11:53 AM
KAYLA:

in reading your comments at first i thought...wow she is a gun hater...then i read more and you say" my friends that usually carry i dont ask to leave their guns at home"

So how do you have it? are you concealed pro or against...i'm confused?
if you know someone is carrying your okay with it? but not if you had kids? what does that have to do it? you think that they are going to hand the gun to your child to play with like a frisbee?

next topic:

the alcohol thing...i dont want anyone drunk with a gun in their pocket. but im not going to say they cant enter my home if they are sober. IF your going to be drinking to get drunk...leave the gun at home(how you getting home by the way?)

I personlly only have a few people whos homes i go to. THEYALL know and feel comfortable with the fact that i pack heat everywhere i go...so when im in their homes...they KNOW i have it with me!

but then again most of them are carrying too so its all good.

I don't hang around tree huggers or anti gun people because my opinion of them is that they are idiots...why would i hang around people that i didnt enjoy or who judged me.

Glenn E. Meyer
August 24, 2009, 12:28 PM
I don't understand the practical aspects of this thread.

I get invited - I carry concealed. Why do you think I must announce to the homeowner that I carry?

If they don't want guns - then they should put in on the RSVP or a sign outside.

What about the gun makes it a moral imperative to announce it as compared to my underwear choice.

If you think you are going to ND in a house - well - you shouldn't be carrying anywhere.

Must I tell a Christian that I have a Jewish Star under my shirt? Must I tell you that I'm wearing party underwear?

I carry a reasonable knife also.

If you don't want guns - announce that so I can choose not to come to your house.

As far as the 'my house my rules' - I got a test - take off your clothes - stand by the picture window when the school bus arrives - wait for the law.

If you can't trust someone to carry and they scare you - I got a hint for you - have nothing to do with them. Don't invite them to your house.

rburch
August 24, 2009, 01:34 PM
I don't think anyone has said you should announce your carry status as you walk in the door.
Not trying to fuss with you, Kayla, but how else do you know your host's feelings on the matter? I was particularly addressing those who said they feel they have been rudely treated when someone else carries into their home without advanced permission. There seems no way to gain that permission without bringing up one's status.
Kayla, as a practical matter, you've said you'd be mad if your friends didn't tell you that they were armed. Understandable -- but such a position necessarily implies that they do tell you at some point before they enter your property. When and how are you expecting them to tell you, if not at the door?

I think it's best handled long before the time you reach their door. I personally don't go to many people's houses if I don't know them very well.

If people know me, then they know I enjoy guns, and most likely know I have a permit and do carry. I rarely have to ask outright if the person wants me to carry in their home.

At present the only home I've been forbidden to carry in is my girlfriend's parent's house. Her mother thinks it's stupid of me to carry all the time (of course, that might be because she thinks everything I do is stupid) She's not anti gun (they own several) just anti me.

If I've been invited to someone's house that I don't know well, I'll normally mention that I do carry, and ask if they would be more comfortable with my leaving it in the car.

Now if you're coming to my place, my rules are simple.

Keep it in the holster unless there's a good reason not too.

If you're gonna drink, leave it home, in your car, or let me lock it in my safe. If you're drunk you'll get it back when I let you have your keys (I'm taking those too)

Follow the gun safety rules.

TailGator
August 24, 2009, 02:32 PM
Obviously a sign saying . . . "Obama '08" is a pretty clear indication

Supporters of the Second Amendment, CCP holders, and gun hobbyists can be found in every political party, and since candidates run on more than one issue at a time, you might be surprised at the voting records of some folks who are on your side on firearms issues.

I do assume permission unless otherwise informed.

Me, too. But I have never received an invitation, written or verbal, that included either "guns allowed" or "guns prohibited." I have worn a firearm to churches, synagogues, weddings, receptions, funerals, restaurants, parties, meetings of professional academies, private clubs, conventions, cookouts, and private homes, without ever being made, and therefore without objection.

I guess my puzzlement comes from this: If you are carrying well concealed, and you don't bring up the subject, how does the issue arise?

Still wondering if those who consider it rude for guests to carry without their permission reciprocate when they are guests, and how exactly it is handled if they do. I really can't imagine a graceful way to bring it up.

Beentown71
August 24, 2009, 02:55 PM
Well I learned some things from this thread. Seems I have a different mindset than others on here more than I thought. Heck maybe from the TFL community in general.

I guess it boils down to the individual and not the tool for me. I am a bit of a control freak because I would want to know if someone was into my kitchen knives, tools, even if they were just looking... Any of that could be dangerous. Its not the gun it is that I don't know the people.

Here is where I question myself... The situation is no different in public settings so why am I more worried at home? I have my family out in public with out any control of others actions. For some reason the fact that it is my property got stuck in my crawl about this. It's moot anyway since I don't invite people to my home that I don't know. I just met a mortgage banker at a local restaurant instead of the house.

The other part was people saying that they would not visit if they could not carry kinda struck me as odd as well. Why? What does this do for our community? Do you feel that in danger that you can't leave your firearm behind? Honest questions (no snarkiness involved). As I have said before I am a young guy forming opinions and likes to hear the story before judging.

I.E. I can't carry at work so should I quit my job? For those that said they wouldn't visit someone who wouldn't want them to carry would you quit your job if they said that you couldn't carry?

I still feel....:barf:... I hate that word and I have used it in this thread more than any other time in my life:barf: Never mind because the more I put on here the more I sound anti even though I am the reciprocal.

Beentown

markj
August 24, 2009, 03:12 PM
Concealed means just that, nobody can tell, nobody can see, if they can, well it isnt concealed now is it?

Glenn E. Meyer
August 24, 2009, 03:25 PM
You can do without a visit to Bubba. However, you might not be able to do with the paycheck. Really, not a useful comparison.

The hospital doesn't allow guns either - however, I prefer to live and thus, I go there.

What does this say about society - well, I'd prefer to live in a completely nonviolent society and drink wine with friends but - that's not in the cards.

pax
August 24, 2009, 03:26 PM
The other part was people saying that they would not visit if they could not carry kinda struck me as odd as well. Why? What does this do for our community? Do you feel that in danger that you can't leave your firearm behind?

Nope. If I don't "feel safe" somewhere, I don't go there.

Rather, it's simply this: carrying is what I DO. I get dressed in the morning, I put my firearm on, I go about my business of the day. It's my default setting.

On one level, as I've said already, if someone wants me disarmed on their property, they're telling me they don't trust me. Okay, I can accept that -- they have just told me that they aren't my friend and don't want to be my friend. Next!

On a practical level, I'm already armed. I put the gun on this morning and I didn't intend to remove it until bedtime. You're asking me to handle the firearm unnecessarily, and to leave it somewhere less secure than it is right now. Not going to happen.

The firearm is considerably less safe lying around in a car than it is secured on my hip, so I'm not leaving it in the car unless it's either illegal to carry it or impossible to conceal it. I'm not going to be making a special trip back home just to disarm myself, and I'm not changing my entire daily routine just in case I might end up at your house.

When someone says they've got the right to keep firearms off their property, I see nothing wrong in respecting their wishes and staying off their property while I am armed.

Some folks seem to want it both ways: you want to set the rules for your own property, and then you want to insist that others must come on your property under those terms.

It doesn't work that way. My boundaries are mine, your boundaries are yours. You set your rules. I decide whether I can live with those rules.

So I'm not disarming and I'm not going to waste a bunch of emotional energy on a pseudo-friendship with someone who makes it plain they don't trust me. We can meet somewhere off their property, I guess. But if the friendship isn't even worth even that much effort to them, well, it surely isn't worth any more work on my part either. Life's too short!

I.E. I can't carry at work so should I quit my job? For those that said they wouldn't visit someone who wouldn't want them to carry would you quit your job if they said that you couldn't carry?

I did. What you do is up to you. (And it's slightly different, as the job I quit was part time & seasonal, not the sole support for my family.)

pax

bradofhill
August 24, 2009, 03:33 PM
On one level, as I've said already, if someone wants me disarmed on their property, they're telling me they don't trust me. Okay, I can accept that -- they have just told me that they aren't my friend and don't want to be my friend. Next!

Are you sure it is YOU they don't trust? Sure it's not cousin ed who is 250lbs with the mental capacity of a 13 y/o and likes to HUG? Sure it's not the 6 y/o twin cutie girls who love to jump on their favorite aunt or uncle?

I'm not sure it's always about trusting the person carrying...

Disclaimer: If not for these things, I wouldn't have even thought to disarm prior to going to someone else's home, much less ask or announce.

Jofaba
August 24, 2009, 06:29 PM
Kayla, if he's a bit off he's probably going to lie to you. I seem to be seeing a theme emerge, and it looks like its less about people carrying inside your house, versus particular persons possibly carrying in your house.

I'm curious, as this has been a very active discussion so it could easily have been missed, if you saw my halloween scenario? I am very interested in your response. It's definitely a thinker.

If you respect the home owner and announce that you have a gun, that could be perceived as a threat. And even I, pro gun and all, if someone knocked on my door and asked if their kid could use my bathroom, oh and by the way I have a gun, I would feel threatened, not respected.

If you trust the people you associate with, then I don't see a reason to disarm them (and it now sounds like you apparently do not disarm your carrying friends). As for the people you'd rather not have carrying around you or your family, you really should be treating them as if they are capable of harming you regardless of what tools they posess. And, essentially, isn't that why you (if you do) carry as well?

Depending on where you live, you may be walking within feet or inches from dozens of civilian owned and permitted guns every day. One of those people may end up being the next mass murder. Most will not. You have another thread asking how to spot concealed carriers. I get a strong sense that you are very uncomfortable with the subject right now.

Instead of vilifying all carriers, maybe you should (and I'm not trying to tell you what to do, just suggesting) focus on the core issue you have with it right now. If there's someone in your life right now that you are worried about, you should call the authorities or speak to someone. I get the feeling that these threads are the birth of you rationalizing your distrust of concealed weapons.

I may be entirely wrong and I hope that you are not offended. I sometimes misread things.

With all respect in the world, - Joshua.

Al Norris
August 24, 2009, 07:05 PM
Just to reiterate what pax had to say, by way of a short story:

Just last week, my wife and I were invited to a BBQ by a co-worker. I declined.

When asked why, by the co-worker, I told him that we have had several discussions about guns and that he is dead set against them. He then asked what guns have to do with coming to a BBQ. I remarked that I carry everywhere, either concealed or openly, and that he knew this.

I further said that since he is morally opposed to ordinary people who carry, then he is morally opposed to me. End of discussion, as I then walked away.

His choice. My choice. That's the way it should be.

sakeneko
August 24, 2009, 07:31 PM
So back to what I was saying. I'm always aware that almost any adult male can physically overpower me, if he tries hard enough. So if I don't trust the guy to begin with, disarming him really isn't going to do anything for me, safety-wise, and I know it. If the guy sets off my alarms, it isn't safe for me to hang around him, because I can't disarm him entirely -- he will still have his own body, which is larger than mine and more powerful.

Exactly. I've never assumed that "people in general" are not carrying guns or are carrying them. That just isn't the issue for me: the issue is whether that particular person is someone I trust or someone I have reservations about. Only if somebody worries me for some other reason would I even think to worry about a gun they might be carrying.

But people feel differently about this. The only friends who might be shocked in my case live in California, however, and since I can't carry there except openly in rural areas, it's a moot point.

TailGator
August 24, 2009, 07:37 PM
Just last week, my wife and I were invited to a BBQ by a co-worker. I declined.

I understand and respect your decision, but did he include in his words of invitation that you were expected to leave your firearm at home, or did you assume it? How might things have gone if you accepted his invitation and carried discretely? Would he have asked you on arrival if you were armed? Or might he be someone who would respect your opinion and rights even though he disagreed with you?

I don't think we who carry should be hyper-sensitive about the issue. Not saying you were - you know the situation, you have a sense of how hostile he is, and you have your feelings about the guy - but it need not be a universal response to refuse all invitations from people who disagree with us on the issue of 2A rights. Building relationships is one way to change minds. Don't take this as a personal admonition - just a general idea for discussion.

Phoebe
August 24, 2009, 08:05 PM
flyguyskt, I'm pro concealed carry and I'm pro gun. I've been pro gun rights for probably 20 years even though I am very new to being a gun owner.

But I'm also pro individual autonomy and pro having control over my own house. To me, that trumps virtually everything. I've said it before:
My house. My rules. If you don't like it, leave.

That doesn't mean I won't let you carry in my house!! That just means it's my decision to make, not yours.

If anything, I'd expect 2nd amendment supporters to also be supporters of individual autonomy...so that's where I end up scratching my head.

But I don't think this debate is resolvable, nor do I think discussing it bearing much fruit.

Sefner, some of my biggest gun enthusiast/NRA friends voted for Obama and identify as Democrats. I think you're making a huge assumption that Obama voters = anti-gun.

Most people are not single issue voters.

Pax, there is way too much context that is missing, to talk about the guy I'd let in my house but not want to carry. I brought him up as an illustration, but it's not as simple as you're making it sound. (Or maybe for you, it would be more simple than it is for me.)

Beentown71
August 24, 2009, 08:21 PM
Orig poster was Tailgator:
I don't think we who carry should be hyper-sensitive about the issue. but it need not be a universal response to refuse all invitations from people who disagree with us on the issue of 2A rights. Building relationships is one way to change minds.

I agree.

Beentown

JED1177
August 24, 2009, 08:26 PM
Not only in the location mentioned in this string, but everywhere, the point of concealed carry is that no one knows your are carrying.

You have the tacical advantage in any situation that may arise.

If you can't overcome the urge to tell everyone you're carrying.....you shouldn't be carrying. You would be better suited working for an ad agency.

My 2 cents..........

chemgirlie
August 24, 2009, 08:38 PM
In any situation (not just issues related to guns) it would be beneficial for all parties for the property owner to let guests know about special rules the first time they visit.

Do you prefer that I not visit after petting a cat or dog due to allergies? Would you like me to leave my gun at home or announce my carry status? Is your home a non-smoking location? Let me know about the rules of your house and I will comply or not visit.

Sportdog
August 24, 2009, 09:28 PM
I believe that a lot of the posters, me included, are having a different perspective when you use the word "friends". To me, and it is my perspective, the word "friends" conjures up an image of someone that I have known for a fairly long period of time and have trusted with conversations and openness that I would not deem appropriate for "acquaintances". It signifies a special bond. My daughter on the other hand uses the term "friends" to anyone on her "friends list" on Face Book or Space Book or whatever it is! LOL. If I were invited to one of my "friends" homes they would know that I have a CPL and I'm sure would not even ponder the ramifications of me being armed in their home. If I were invited to the home of an acquaintance, "don't ask don't tell" would be my thought and action. If I KNEW that the person DID NOT WANT me to carry in their home I would certainly respect that. Not because they think of themselves as the King or Queen of their castle, but out of respect for their wishes. As far as "my house, my rules", I can't help think about what my son-in-law tells his children when they stay with grandpa and grandma, "Pa's house, Pa's rules". I don't take that to mean that anything goes in my home. It means that my daughter and son-in-law have enough confidence and respect for me to use good judgement and if it differs some from their home turf, no big deal. It sounds to me that Kayla needs new friends and a new range with all of her talk about unsafe behavior. Very strange in my corner of the world. The people who are my "friends" are responsible gun owners and I can never remember one time that others at the range caused me to fret over safety issues. So I guess the moral of the story is..........there is no moral to the story. We all are different and live our individual lives in different manners.;)

Al Norris
August 24, 2009, 10:24 PM
TailGator, I quite understand what you are getting at.

I intentionally used the phrase, "co-worker," to denote that the individual was more than an acquaintance, but less than a what one would consider a friend.

I live in rural south central Idaho. Camping, fishing hunting and guns in general are common topics in the workplace. In such an environment, someone who is adamantly opposed to private ownership of firearms (hence, "dead set against them"), and purposely makes this known to everyone else, during many of these conversations, is not someone I would want to associate with.

Ignorance can be cured through education. A closed mind cannot be educated.

Trashcan-man
August 25, 2009, 12:50 AM
Kayla,
I think most here agree that you have the right to keep concealed weapons out of your house if you so choose. What I think the dissenting opinion is, is that the carrier is not/should not be required to TELL you they are carrying. If you don't want someone else carrying inside your house then IMO it is up to you to tell them. If you do not then how are they supposed to know? If your answer is really that they should ask...think of that on the whole scale. How many people's houses do you go into every week?

nazshooter
August 25, 2009, 01:01 AM
RE: "If you don't trust someone with a gun why do you let them in you house at all".

I've met quite a few fellow shooters over the years that I'd trust in my home but not in my home armed. It's not that I think they'd go crazy and hurt someone but some people just don't take gun safety seriously at all. Many years ago my wife and I were visiting some relatives. At one point in the visit one of their kids grabbed a gun out of a kitchen drawer and started waving it around. The parents just laughed. They're still welcome for barbecues etc but I wouldn't want them here with a gun.

I guess with most people though, I figure if I don't see it they're probably doing something right.

Phoebe
August 25, 2009, 01:26 AM
Sportdog, to be clear, Bass Pro is not "my range." I was only in there to see what handguns they have for sale.

And the female that pointed a gun at me wasn't exactly at the range either -- she was showing me her gun in the parking lot of my range.

The folks who work at my range have never shown anything other than scrupulous safety practices.

TailGator
August 25, 2009, 07:11 AM
A closed mind cannot be educated.

Truer words have not been spoken, my friend.

And your elaboration of the situation is exactly what I meant in qualifying my comments with the observation that you knew the situation better than anyone. I am always mindful that there are intangibles in the situations that are discussed on line that cannot be quite put into words, or at least not into a reasonable volume of words. Someone that rabid might well be expected to make a scene, or even to have issued the invitation with the intent of trying to embarrass or defame you. Situations like that are best avoided just like those that pose a physical threat.

Dr. Strangelove
August 25, 2009, 08:27 AM
Ignorance can be cured through education. A closed mind cannot be educated.

Let us all remember that statement applies to everyone. Quite a number of posters maintained that they refuse to associate with someone who disagrees with their viewpoint on firearms. Just who is being close-minded again? Because someone opposes our viewpoint doesn't mean that they are uneducated or close-minded. Refusing to acknowledge anyone else's viewpoint but your own is close minded and ignorant. I'm not knocking anyone in particular, just reminding everyone that just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean that they are wrong.

I don't have any problem with someone bringing a firearm into my home, I only ask that they tell me. It's a measure of politeness and respect. I also frown on people who show up with kids or pets. Why? It's not because I don't like kids or dogs or or are scared of them, it's for practical reasons. Three mid-thirties guys live here (Nope, we're not, not that there's anything wrong with it...:rolleyes:), our home is definitely not kid-safe, and it's not going to be. Same with pets, a friend showed up the other day, let her dog out of the car, as she was asking if that was OK, it came tearing back across the yard, nose bleeding and howling. I was just getting ready to tell her I didn't care but Buster the Cat might. Same with firearms, there are just too many people in and out of the house and so many different things going on all the time that firearms just don't need to be in the mix.

Another thing, expand your world a little folks. Just because someone isn't always talking guns and hanging out on TFL on the time doesn't make them a bad person.

ATW525
August 25, 2009, 09:18 AM
Let us all remember that statement applies to everyone. Quite a number of posters maintained that they refuse to associate with someone who disagrees with their viewpoint on firearms. Just who is being close-minded again? Because someone opposes our viewpoint doesn't mean that they are uneducated or close-minded. Refusing to acknowledge anyone else's viewpoint but your own is close minded and ignorant. I'm not knocking anyone in particular, just reminding everyone that just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean that they are wrong.

When you get the world united together singing kumbaya and painting rainbows let me know. Until then I'll continue to carry a gun and I'll continue to avoid people and places that restrict my right to do so.

TailGator
August 25, 2009, 09:47 AM
I don't have any problem with someone bringing a firearm into my home

there are just too many people in and out of the house and so many different things going on all the time that firearms just don't need to be in the mix.

I am sure you can clarify that, but at first glance the two seem contradictory.

I only ask that they tell me. It's a measure of politeness and respect.

Not picking on you, but no one has really suggested how to handle this yet: Say you invite me and my wife over for dinner one night, along with a couple of your other friends. We spend the evening enjoying your delicious meal, talking football and economics and football and global warming and football. Two weeks later you find out somehow or other that I have a CWP, and you remember that I kept my jacket on all evening when I visited you.

Do you feel disrespected or rudely treated? How would you have preferred that I handled it? Should I have said I had a CWP when you invited me? Should I have whispered something to you at the door? Should I have said anything to the other guests? How do you handle it when you are invited out?

It honestly has not occurred to me before this thread that my discretely and legally bearing a concealed weapon would be objectionable to anyone but a fairly active anti. That is not an accusation, but only an expression of my own surprise that this is an issue with quite a few TFL participants. I honestly don't want to offend, so what would make you feel better about a situation like that? I don't routinely talk about my carry status for tactical reasons, because I don't care to be seen as someone who has to crow about it, and because at root I consider it to be a private personal choice; yet I value courtesy and I would like to hear from those who take offense how to avoid offense.

Glenn E. Meyer
August 25, 2009, 09:58 AM
I only ask that they tell me. It's a measure of politeness and respect.

With no disrespect - and I don't have time to write a philosophical piece - that is sheer baloney. If you invite me to your house, I have no responsibility other than not acting in a manner to threaten you or be rude. My personal behavior is not your business.

If one thinks a common behavior is threatening - you need to announce it before I arrive. I have no responsibility to try to discern what phobias and foilbles you might have.

Phoebe
August 25, 2009, 10:10 AM
This isn't rocket science and it doesn't have to be some big, loud permission asking activity.

If I know you well, I probably already know if you carry because we've probably talked about it in generic terms.

If I don't know you well, then perhaps you could still bring it up in a conversational, rather than permission seeking manner.

In either case, I could then assume you may be carrying in my house and could then say something if I didn't want you to.

It has seriously never been a big issue in my life. Perhaps some have carried where I was clueless. But in general, I believe I have been aware and could have made a different preference known, if I had one.

I am not asking someone to "knock knock, got a gun, ok if I come in?" (where is a RTOFL icon when I need one??)

Maybe the easiest solution is if I make sure I live in a state where it's NOT LEGAL to carry into my home without my permission.

(Now, you can all accuse me of supporting gun control.) :cool:

Glenn E. Meyer
August 25, 2009, 10:28 AM
If I don't know you well, Guess what - I'm not telling you anything about my armed or unarmed science. That's not rocket science either.

I don't recall any state that requires explict permission to enter a home based on concealed carry status.

Kayla, your position is becoming practically untenable and self-contradictory in parts.

If you do want a state to have a law that demands explict notification to enter a private home - then I'm afraid you do fall on the gun control side as that is an unreasonable request and your rationale seems not based on facts but some fear of the carrier.

Dr. Strangelove
August 25, 2009, 10:31 AM
Quote:
I don't have any problem with someone bringing a firearm into my home

Quote:
there are just too many people in and out of the house and so many different things going on all the time that firearms just don't need to be in the mix.

I am sure you can clarify that, but at first glance the two seem contradictory.

Good point, it is contradictory. The best way to put that is that while I don't generally have issue with someone bringing a firearm to my house, there are occasions where they aren't welcome, so please let me know. If you walk up to my door with your new shotgun, I may say bring it on in and let's have a look, or I may say hey, now isn't the right time.

Not picking on you, but no one has really suggested how to handle this yet: Say you invite me and my wife over for dinner one night, along with a couple of your other friends. We spend the evening enjoying your delicious meal, talking football and economics and football and global warming and football. Two weeks later you find out somehow or other that I have a CWP, and you remember that I kept my jacket on all evening when I visited you.

Just pull me to the side and say, "Hey, I've got my CCW on, just thought you should know", something of that nature. As far as me finding out later, that depends on our relationship and how you conducted yourself. Worst case, you don't come back. In the situation you described, I would probably just mention next time you were invited that I'd appreciate you leaving your weapon in the car, or can lock in my safe if you would rather.

With no disrespect - and I don't have time to write a philosophical piece - that is sheer baloney. If you invite me to your house, I have no responsibility other than not acting in a manner to threaten you or be rude. My personal behavior is not your business.

If one thinks a common behavior is threatening - you need to announce it before I arrive. I have no responsibility to try to discern what phobias and foilbles you might have.

No disrespect intended either, but yes, bringing a weapon into my home, especially concealed, is every bit my business. It's not a common behavior and the "phobias and foibles" of someone who feels the need to constantly carry a gun are definitely my business when that person is in my home.

Glenn E. Meyer
August 25, 2009, 10:42 AM
If it is your business - you need a sign outside or explicit notification.

Also, if one defines those who carry as phobic as compared to one who fears the licensed carrier - then, I'm afraid - you are part of the gun control crowd.

If someone explicitly invited me to their house and then explicitly told me that they knew or suspected I carry and told me they forbid it - I have no desire to attend their social event.

I would feel the same way as if someone told me that as a Christian, they wanted me to convert to come into their house. Get lost then. I repeat that all I see is some folks who have some issue of control - My cave, my cave! - or some fear - which is no different from that of the gun control crowd that argued to ban carry in mall, movies, churches, etc.

PS - carry is common among my circles of paranoia who own guns.

Vanya
August 25, 2009, 10:54 AM
Weighing in on this kinda late, but the whole discussion seems odd to me. If I don't know you well, and generally trust you, you're not going to be invited to my home. Period. End of discussion. If I know you well enough to invite you, I don't care whether or not you're carrying. There are plenty of ways to get together with people I know less well: we can meet at a restaurant or a bar, take the dog for a walk, go canoeing with the gang, heck, meet at the mall and go shopping (just kidding :barf:)... anywhere that's neutral turf. But if you're not a pretty good friend, you don't get invited to my house.

Kayla, I understand your point about "my house, my rules." But it seems strange to me that you'd want someone (especially a guy) in your house at all if you'd only be comfortable knowing he wasn't armed. Meet him somewhere else, if you must (again, why, if you already know you don't trust him?), but he doesn't have to come to your house...

The best way to put that is that while I don't generally have issue with someone bringing a firearm to my house, there are occasions where they aren't welcome, so please let me know. If you walk up to my door with your new shotgun, I may say bring it on in and let's have a look, or I may say hey, now isn't the right time.

This seems to me to be a completely separate issue. Of course there might be times when you didn't want guns being handled, or lying around, but that's a bit different from someone's discreetly (and there's no other way ;)) carrying concealed.

bababooey32
August 25, 2009, 11:00 AM
bringing a weapon into my home, especially concealed, is every bit my business

Do you notify all of your guests with a complete list of items that are not allowed in your house? Is a gun the only item you forbid to be carried in your home? If so, why only guns? A 6in Ka-Bar doesn't bother you but a Seecamp does? How about an aluminum baseball bat?

Seems to me that if I keep my _____________ [insert item of choice here] out of sight and unused while in your home, it is none of your business. I don't announce my cell phone, why would I announce my Ruger LCP? Both are tools that i use for safety.

pax
August 25, 2009, 11:02 AM
Just a quick comment about paranoia.

Think about it: who's really more paranoid, the person who wants to be prepared in the admittedly-unlikely event that a criminal might try to commit a violent crime? Or the person who wants EVERYONE ELSE around them to be less able to protect themselves than they are?

pax

Buzzcook
August 25, 2009, 11:27 AM
Their house their rules. Pretty simple ain't it?

Dr. Strangelove
August 25, 2009, 12:09 PM
The paranoia bit was brought up by someone else, I was just trying to illustrate that what one person sees as normal can be interpreted as paranoia by another. Is someone paranoid because they carry all the time? Is someone paranoid because they ask people to tell them when they bring a weapon into their home? Depends on your point of view.

Do you notify all of your guests with a complete list of items that are not allowed in your house? Is a gun the only item you forbid to be carried in your home? If so, why only guns? A 6in Ka-Bar doesn't bother you but a Seecamp does? How about an aluminum baseball bat?

'Course not. I ask them to use common sense. I have a Ka-Bar, too; but I don't wear it around the house. If we aren't going to the woods, I'm likely to ask why you are wearing one. Aluminum baseball bat? Are we playing baseball? If not, I'm probably gonna question why you need to carry it.

There are obviously strong feeling on both sides of this issue. Asking that people carrying weapons into my home let me know that fact isn't unreasonable or anti-gun. For those who insist they would not attend a function that disallowed firearms, there are that many who would not attend if they were allowed, and neither camp is "right". It's up to each person to decide.

I repeat that all I see is some folks who have some issue of control - My cave, my cave! - or some fear - which is no different from that of the gun control crowd that argued to ban carry in mall, movies, churches, etc.

You're right - but it seems both sides have a control issue. Insistence on carrying everywhere is no more or less a control issue than someone controlling what comes into their "cave".

Nytro
August 25, 2009, 12:26 PM
Interesting thread. Many good points, lots of opinions. I recently got my carry permit from the state of Florida (that process was scarier than the thought of someone carrying into my home) so I'm sure eventually I will be faced with the decision to carry or not to carry to a friends house. Whether I decide to carry or not, I certainly wouldn't volunteer my decision upon entering. I agree with Kayla 100% about the part my house, my rules. As far as carrying a weapon goes, I only invite friends into my house and I have already have an opinion about them and they would know how I feel about issues. On the other hand I present this scenerio, last year I went to a Christmas party at a friends house, her son is an Air Marshall and had flown in for a visit and within two or three hours he was very very drunk. It was never established whether or not he was carrying but I did mention to his mother that if he was it would certainly be inappropiate considering his level of intoxication. She spoke to him and a few minutes later he left for his room and when he returned he was not wearing his suit jacket so I assumed he was armed and left his weapon in his room. I guess there is no real difinitive answer to the question posed here, to each his own.

On a lighter side I would add that when I was single I use to insist to any date that I brought to my house that before she entered I would have to do a complete search to make sure she wasn't carrying, sometimes it would be a quick once over but other times it would involve the removal of clothing and much much more, just to make sure I wasn't going to be harmed. :rolleyes: JK

Phoebe
August 25, 2009, 01:43 PM
I must know dumber people than some of you all know.

It isn't like I think I am letting some BG in who will go crazy and shoot everyone with his concealed weapon!! lol!

But I know some people who I think may lack some basic common sense, and that may extend to their notions of firearm safety. It doesn't ruin my friendship with them or make them unwelcome in my house. But if I don't trust their judgment, why would I want them armed?

Funny that lots of people have agreed with me (I'd guess half), but somehow everyone is arguing with me like I'm the only one who has said, "my house/my rules."

And yes, in my house, I suppose I am a control freak. :cool:

bababooey32
August 25, 2009, 01:47 PM
Asking that people carrying weapons into my home let me know that fact isn't unreasonable or anti-gun.

I respectfully disagree. And, BTW, you are asking only to have GUNS declared at the door, not weapons. A 4in folder in my pocket will kill you as fast or faster than my LCP - you have only requested to be informed about one of them. That is both unreasonable and "anti-gun" (literally).

Furthermore, it is borderline illegal for me to "declare" that I am carrying a concealed firearm. Part of "concealed" is being discreet. If I have to tell everyone I meet that I am carrying so they can decide if they are offended, I have defeated the purpose of said concealment.

Insistence on carrying everywhere is no more or less a control issue than someone controlling what comes into their "cave".

Insisting on carrying everywhere is insisting on being safe everywhere. It's not about control...Insisting that people cease protecting themselves to ease some(?) concern is about control. I added the "?" because I'm not yet sure what the concern is over? Being on this board means you are not anti-gun, so why do you care if a friend responsibly carries in your home. Keep in mind, "responsible" means that you would never know they were carrying!

Skans
August 25, 2009, 02:02 PM
I subscribe to "don't ask don't tell". I'm not going to make an issue out of someone carrying a gun into my home....just make it a point to keep it your business and not mine. If I'm letting you anywhere near my home in the first place I already have a good deal of trust in you.

Dr. Strangelove
August 25, 2009, 02:34 PM
Quote:
Asking that people carrying weapons into my home let me know that fact isn't unreasonable or anti-gun.

I respectfully disagree. And, BTW, you are asking only to have GUNS declared at the door, not weapons. A 4in folder in my pocket will kill you as fast or faster than my LCP - you have only requested to be informed about one of them. That is both unreasonable and "anti-gun" (literally).

Furthermore, it is borderline illegal for me to "declare" that I am carrying a concealed firearm. Part of "concealed" is being discreet. If I have to tell everyone I meet that I am carrying so they can decide if they are offended, I have defeated the purpose of said concealment.


You are welcome to disagree, it doesn't bother me at all that we don't see the same on this issue. We each have our own opinions, but, in my home, I get to set the rules. Reasonable or unreasonable? My reasonable may be your unreasonable and vice-versa.

TailGator
August 25, 2009, 02:38 PM
And others who are thinking similarly,

I have to confess - I did something rotten and baited you. Read this again:


Quote:
Not picking on you, but no one has really suggested how to handle this yet: Say you invite me and my wife over for dinner one night, along with a couple of your other friends. We spend the evening enjoying your delicious meal, talking football and economics and football and global warming and football. Two weeks later you find out somehow or other that I have a CWP, and you remember that I kept my jacket on all evening when I visited you.

Just pull me to the side and say, "Hey, I've got my CCW on, just thought you should know", something of that nature. As far as me finding out later, that depends on our relationship and how you conducted yourself. Worst case, you don't come back. In the situation you described, I would probably just mention next time you were invited that I'd appreciate you leaving your weapon in the car, or can lock in my safe if you would rather.


I didn't say I was carrying. I said I had a permit and I kept my jacket on. You never knew whether I was carrying or not, yet you leaped to a conclusion that would have had you either sever a friendship ("don't come back") or making a possibly inappropriate comment to me on the next invitation.

Now, as it turns out, with me your assumption would have been correct, but if you only saw a jacket and the firearm was not an issue during our evening, why is it an issue later and how were you either threatened, had your safety compromised, or offended? The fact is, if we had the same evening and you did not investigate me - and in the scenario I described, I didn't give you any cause to investigate me - I could have made that and many return visits to your home without your ever knowing that I was safely and discretely carrying a perfectly legal tool for the defense of myself, my family, and the friends I am with, including, for those moments, you. That is what I am not getting - what is the objection? (This is not hypothetical. I have friends that I have known for many years who don't know that I carry. Advertising concealed carry negates it.) "My house, my rules." OK, but rules usually have a purpose. I am not seducing your wife, annoying your pets, damaging your home, or making a nuisance of myself - I just have this thing on my belt. What is the purpose of your rule that I must leave my firearm in my car, unattended, and subject to theft and possible use against you and, what is worse, me?;)

Vanya
August 25, 2009, 02:42 PM
But I know some people who I think may lack some basic common sense, and that may extend to their notions of firearm safety. It doesn't ruin my friendship with them or make them unwelcome in my house. But if I don't trust their judgment, why would I want them armed?
If you don't trust their judgment, why would you welcome them into your "castle?"

Past a very basic level, it's not about people's notions of firearm safety. If someone is carrying concealed, and doing so responsibly, which is to say legally and with the gun properly secured, not just stuck in a waistband or whatever, then it's safe. There's no reason for it to come out; no reason anyone, including you, has to know it's there. If you don't think a particular individual is responsible enough to know and follow those basic rules, I can only repeat: why, especially as someone who is clearly concerned about her own safety and committed to protecting herself, would you want such a person in your house at all? (And if you think they're irresponsible enough to be carrying illegally.... 'nuff said. You don't need people like that as friends.)

Concealed means concealed. If I thought that someone was dumb enough not to get that, so that he'd be liable to come into my house and draw a concealed handgun without a sufficient reason -- :eek: -- I wouldn't want him there in the first place. Might go to the mall with him ;), but if people have that little common sense, they're not coming to my house.

My house, my rules: I don't trust people who lack basic common sense, and I'll socialize with them elsewhere, if at all.

Glenn E. Meyer
August 25, 2009, 02:46 PM
I've been a touch to zealous. My position is clear so I shall retire from the field and watch.

bababooey32
August 25, 2009, 03:01 PM
My reasonable may be your unreasonable and vice-versa.

Doc,

Your unwillingness/inability to articulate and defend your position should tell you how unreasonable it truly is.

Reasonable rules are easy to defend. You have yet to do that. You have yet to say what your concern is in having someone safely and discreetly carry a firearm in your home. If you can't even answer that question, reasonableness has left the building.

bababooey32
August 25, 2009, 03:03 PM
But if I don't trust their judgment, why would I want them armed?


I asked Starngeglove this, and now I'll ask you: Do you have a list of items you don't allow in your home? You said you don't want armed people in your home. Is your definition of "armed" limited to firearms? If so, why?

Daugherty16
August 25, 2009, 03:10 PM
Kayla, i am presuming that the people in your life who carry concealed have gone through the legal process of being declared "fit" for carrying a weapon by the state? (having to be declared "fit" is another topic altogether). If not, they are committing a crime (in all but about 2 states, i think) and i don't want them carrying anywhere until they are legal. It places all of our carry rights in jeopardy every time someone carries illegally.

Like most of the others here, the folks i let in my home are already "vetted" or they wouldn't come through the door. Many of them carry, or at least hunt and shoot with me. If they choose to carry when they come over, GOOD. That makes it 2 guns against the BG if the SHTF, and absolutely no problem if it doesn't. Strangers simply do not come into my house, nor do people i don't trust. But do i care that the guy next to me at Walmart is carrying too? Not if he's legal. My experience is that sloppy carry is a trademark of illegal carry - obviously not always, but usually - and not one of my friends is sloppy with a firearm. I simply can't associate with someone whose carelessness could cost my life. I won't hunt with them, shoot with them, or invite them to my home. Also in my experience, legal CCW holders are the most responsible and law abiding folks around. Everyone? no, but most.

Kayla, i believe as strongly as you do in the right to set the rules in your own home. If those are truly your feelings, then lay down the law. But from some of what you've said, I wonder if your concerns are really more about a particular person being in your home and less about concealed carry in general. It sounds like you support CCW, which is good. If this is true, maybe it's just that particular person you should disinvite? Just a thought. Pax does make an awful lot of sense. :cool:

:DThough, i disagree about the King James thing. His deal was oppression and subjugation and taxation, not about control. He knew the quickest way to subjugate a people was to take away all their weapons. It had been done in Europe to the peasants for centuries before they came to the colonies.

Dr. Strangelove
August 25, 2009, 03:25 PM
Shame on you. Next time you and the wife come over for a barbecue, it's clothes left at the door. In fact, that's my new policy. Everyone is naked all the time at my house!:eek: (Disclaimer: Tailgator has never been to my home. He is certainly welcome.)

I do have reasons for my opinion, it's nothing to do with seducing my pets or annoying my wife. We can trade reasons for and against back and forth all day, but in the end, it's my home. I understand the strong feelings of the folks think that my view is wrong, I really do. Just understand that other points of view exist, and each person decides how they wish to live.

TailGator
August 25, 2009, 03:43 PM
LOL. Seeing me in my birthday suit would doubtlessly make you reconsider your policy.:D

The point I am making is that I could come to your house and not know that I was violating your rule of no guns in the house, and you wouldn't know, either, unless you bring it up. I do not feel obligated - and you should probably assume that other holders of concealed (such an important word!) weapons permits feel similarly - to disclose, unprompted, my carry status. If you feel strongly that there should be no guns in your house, it is attendant upon you to make that clear in advance so that I can choose whether to accept the conditions of your invitation or not. As I said earlier, I have never received an invitation, written or oral, that included either "guns permitted" or "guns not permitted," so I have to make my own assumptions that what is safe and legal is permissible if not expressly prohibited.

And Dr. Strangelove, thanks for the welcome - I am certain we would have a fun time razzing each other about everything we could think of. Starting with your screen name. ;-)

QBall45
August 25, 2009, 03:53 PM
This whole thread has me laughing my back side off!

At first I wanted to post a comment then changed my mind. Then decided to post after all.

It appears as if we have some posters that should choose differant friends. Maybe even change living arangements. Ones personal safety is paramount. This however, changes nothing in they manor in which ones true friends conduct their lives. If they carry a weapon great if they choose to live amongst the sheep so be it. Us sheep dogs will do our best to keep the wolfs at bay.

Sefner
August 25, 2009, 04:00 PM
First, thanks for all the discussion on the thread! I still haven't read the last couple pages (in the hospital right now and can only stare at my phone for so long).

Second, my Obama bumpersticker comment was made in jest, as is evident by the sentence after it :P.

This is a good convo and is a very good display of how even amongst us gun-toting maniacs positions on things can differ. keep it up!

bababooey32
August 25, 2009, 04:13 PM
In fact, that's my new policy. Everyone is naked all the time at my house!

That solves one problem, but may create others!!! :D or :barf:

BillJunior
August 25, 2009, 04:26 PM
Here in SC we don't have a choice :

SECTION 23-31-225. Carrying concealed weapons into residences or dwellings.

No person who holds a permit issued pursuant to Article 4, Chapter 31, Title 23 may carry a concealable weapon into the residence or dwelling place of another person without the express permission of the owner or person in legal control or possession, as appropriate. A person who violates this provision is guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, must be fined not less than one thousand dollars or imprisoned for not more than one year, or both, at the discretion of the court and have his permit revoked for five years.

TailGator
August 25, 2009, 05:33 PM
Since you are so game for this (and isn't the lack of rancor refreshing, folks?):

Now that you know that I pretty much always carry, how would you feel about accepting an invitation to my house for the cookout?

I'll not ambush you again; it is a loaded question. If you say yes, I have to ask you why you consider your pal TailGator to be safer and less offensive armed at his house than armed at your house. If you say no, then are you saying that you choose not to associate with people who exercise their 2A rights? Then you have to ask yourself if you really support it in your deepest heart.

You should also know that I will require you to remain fully clothed. :D But I will not ask about your carry status as long as you stay sober.;)

Dr. Strangelove
August 25, 2009, 06:15 PM
I'd love to come down for the cookout! I won't be bringing a gun, but I'd tell you if I did...:)

You should also know that I will require you to remain fully clothed. Hey, your house, your rules.:p

Everyone read my posts carefully, it's never been about safety or guns being scary, it's been about someone bringing guns into my home without my knowledge. When invited to someone else's home, it's not my business if they choose to have weapons piled up in every corner. Their house, their rules.

Beentown71
August 25, 2009, 08:34 PM
I want to thank all of you for the discussion. I "feel" (:barf: there goes that word again) different about the situation now. If someone were to carry into my home and I not know I think I would be cool with it now. The only time things would change is if they started to carry it irresponsibly. Drinking, showing it off, heck even talking about it and they are out the door. I can't control the general public so if they are carrying responsibly then so be it.

The sticking point for me was...example time:

My wifes brother would be eligible for a CCW if he chose so. I would not want him to carry in my home. I rarely let him in but he is family. I think I would just handle it differently now.

Glenn,

I do have some my cave, my cave in me:D Strangely, well not so strangely I am not that way in public surroundings.

Thanks again,

Beentown

jgcoastie
August 25, 2009, 09:58 PM
I don't recall any state that requires explict permission to enter a home based on concealed carry status.


Alaska.

Rescue2
August 25, 2009, 11:03 PM
Interesting discussion on carrying in other people’s homes…

At my house, I would presume that those friends of mine who had completed (and passed) the required training, and were thus qualified to carry concealed, would be welcome to do so if they felt that they were in such danger to warrant such behavior (for lack of a better word…)

That being said, we have friends (very close friends for the past 30+ years) who are not necessarily “Pro” nor “Anti”, yet their lifestyle is a bit more, um, “liberal” that ours.

There are guns in the house, but not of the “carrying” kind…

They had lived in an area of town that was less than “ideal” for almost twenty years, and subsequently had a number of neighbors whose involvement in gang related activities were fairly strong.

Which brings to current day events…

Our friends have since moved to a slightly less gang infested area (not quite the barrio they were in before, but close) and throw a couple of “family” parties per year, to which we are invited.

The guest list usually includes a bunch of their (and their children’s) long ago acquaintances from the old neighborhood, plus some “new” friends that have similar social tendencies (tats, colors, etc.)

During the last fete, there was the distinct sound of gunfire in the nearby area just after dark (reports, but no localized sounds of projectiles overhead), and we (my wife and I) were pretty uncomfortable with the knowledge that we would be leaving through what is for all intents and purposes “Gangland on a Saturday Night”.

Consider also that some of the guests were well outside of their normal “turf”, and thus potential targets of rival gangs, even though they are simply visiting folks who carry no particular affiliation.

Now, do we personally carry concealed at their home during these parties, if only to level a portion of the “playing field”, yet not inform them?

Or do we leave our weapons locked in our vehicle, which is a potential target of theft given the neighborhood they live in?

Or do we conceal and advise the host that we are concerned for our safety, thus remaining armed and able to defend ourselves, should the situation arise that defense is necessary??

Or do we open carry, and worry the shi t out of the bangers in attendance (or for that matter potentially induce a confrontation)??

I’m going for carrying concealed unannounced…

TailGator
August 26, 2009, 07:46 AM
Since South Carolina and Alaska both require express permission to enter a home with a concealed weapon, and at least SC and presumably Alaska also prescribe criminal penalties for doing so, do you guys consider getting it in writing? Or do you just never do it? Anybody know if there are other states with similar provisions?

jgcoastie
August 26, 2009, 09:48 AM
and at least SC and presumably Alaska also prescribe criminal penalties for doing so,

AS 11.61.220. Misconduct Involving Weapons in the Fifth Degree.
(a) A person commits the crime of misconduct involving weapons in the fifth degree if the person

(1) is 21 years of age or older and knowingly possesses a deadly weapon, other than an ordinary pocket knife or a defensive weapon,

(A) that is concealed on the person, and, when contacted by a peace officer, the person fails to

(i) immediately inform the peace officer of that possession; or

(ii) allow the peace officer to secure the deadly weapon, or fails to secure the weapon at the direction of the peace officer, during the duration of the contact;

(B) that is concealed on the person within the residence of another person unless the person has first obtained the express permission of an adult residing there to bring a concealed deadly weapon within the residence;


Most of my friends houses are on base which means I can't carry there anyway. Those who do not reside on base (I can thing of three off the top of my head) are very close friends who also carry and we have discussed carrying at length in the course of normal conversation at work. I have been to the range with all of them and permission has been granted for me to carry in their home with the obvious exception of consumption of alcoholic beverages. If I am carrying in their home and I really want a beer or any other alcoholic beverage, I go out to my truck, disassemble my Glock, lock the frame in the glove box, lock the slide/barrel in the center console, and turn over all magazines/ammo to my buddy for safe storage in their safe. I've got extra mags at home and they'll bring the ones I turned over to work on monday.

BTW: I think a lot of people are really overthinking this...

Robert Johnson
August 26, 2009, 07:53 PM
I agree with the guy who made post 107.

I learned this lesson young in life. I mentioned to an older, wiser, man that I was having all types of trouble with my democrat friend trying to convince him to vote Bush in 2000. This wise man replied "I do not have a democrat friend". Now I just work harder and live better having zero democrat friends to waste my time on. This method can work well for gun owners too. If they don't like guns, don't talk to them.

Harleyfixer
August 27, 2009, 07:08 AM
Pretty much a non-issue at my house. I carry and so do most of my friends. I trust them and they trust me. Nuff said

fprefect
August 27, 2009, 12:23 PM
Although I firmly believe an individual has the right to carry if no laws are being broken, I also believe Kayla makes some very important points. If you are bringing a deadly weapon onto another's property and into their home, they should be notified in advance and of course have the right to say no.

It then becomes your choice whether or not you wish to enter the person's home without your carry should they object. If you feel unsafe leaving your weapon locked in your car while visiting this person, you should probably stay home.

Not everyone is going to share your views on carrying a concealed weapon and for that matter in many situations your views may be in the minority, and you really have little choice but to accept that fact and respect the views of the homeowner your are visiting. By putting your right to carry above the values of a friendship, I would suggest you may need to take a serious look at your priorities.

F. Prefect

markj
August 27, 2009, 04:14 PM
Now I just work harder and live better having zero democrat friends to waste my time on. This method can work well for gun owners too. If they don't like guns, don't talk to them.

But what if the democrat loves guns?


I do not pick and choose this way for friends and am also old.

Everyone has something of value IMHO.

Stevie-Ray
August 27, 2009, 06:34 PM
I've been on both sides; it seems to depend on how I "read" the person who invited me over. With some, I've carried and felt slightly uncomfortable, with some perfectly comfortable, with some I've left it locked up in the truck, all night, with some I've left it and been told to bring it in. A friend said, "YOU BROUGHT A GUN INTO MY HOUSE?" when the subject was brought up and the wife told her I carried. I said, "No, I left it in the truck." She told me she was only kidding and I was welcome to bring it in there anytime. Another asked to see my weapon as he was interested in getting one for himself and I had to retrieve it from the truck for that purpose, and was assured it was welcome inside, and leaving it was unecessary. My brother, for another example is married to somebody that would never let him own a gun. I've never carried into their home; it stays in the truck. No amount of explaining or teaching will suffice. She doesn't even seem all that anti, just anti in her house. For example, they will go out with us and she knows I am carrying, she knows it's in the truck with us and doesn't see a problem. They have always had kids and now grandkids, and I believe that's the main problem, though she hasn't been able to fully explain it. My brother's best friend is a pro-gunner though, and I'm hoping it will eventually change with his help. With all this talk about parties, I didn't see alcohol mentioned in the thread, either, but that should change things significantly. If there are going to be people drinking I would hope that none of them are carrying, because in my state, it's illegal, even more so than driving. In other words, when you might know that you've waited long enough to be able to drive legally, you're still not able to carry that gun. If I KNOW I'm going to be drinking at all, I don't carry. If anybody is carrying at a party where there is drinking going on, I hope at least it's the homeowner.

bababooey32
August 28, 2009, 08:26 AM
If you are bringing a deadly weapon onto another's property and into their home, they should be notified in advance and of course have the right to say no.


Pocket knives? Pen's and pencils? I doubt you ask to be notified of these items, yet they can kill you just as quickly and easily as a gun. I assume your kitchen knives het locked up when company arrives?

The problem here is that you and others are requiring that I declare my lawfully concealed firearm when entering your home, and then are hiding behind some idea of "safety" as the reason.

If "safety" were the concern, you would want to know about any potentially deadly weapon, and you'd keep your kitchen knives under lock and key. Since I assume you do neither, your argument is disingenuous.

pax
August 28, 2009, 09:59 AM
By putting your right to carry above the values of a friendship, I would suggest you may need to take a serious look at your priorities.

Don't be silly. In the case of someone who refuses to extend trust to the other, no friendship exists or can exist. The best that can happen is a sort of acquaintanceship, not a friendship.

I won't waste my emotional energy on mere acquaintances; I save it for true friends. If you choose to do otherwise, that's your right and privilege. But don't claim it's the "values of friendship" that cause you to jump through hoops for people who don't trust you.

pax

OldMarksman
August 28, 2009, 10:09 AM
In the case of someone who refuses to extend trust to the other, no friendship exists or can exist. The best that can happen is a sort of acquaintanceship, not a friendship.

I won't waste my emotional energy on mere acquaintances; I save it for true friends. If you choose to do otherwise, that's your right and privilege. But don't claim it's the "values of friendship" that cause you to jump through hoops for people who don't trust you.


Agree. Well put--I'll remember those words---may need to use them.

Phoebe
August 28, 2009, 10:11 AM
This wise man replied "I do not have a democrat friend". Now I just work harder and live better having zero democrat friends to waste my time on. This method can work well for gun owners too. If they don't like guns, don't talk to them.

We are all entitled to make any choices we want, but this one seems kind of silly. I know some pro-gun Democrats with very large gun collections who are very active in the NRA.

As I've pointed out elsewhere, most people are not one issue voters, and some gun rights advocates may have other reasons for not voting Republican.

Yes, you'd probably find more NRA Republicans than NRA Democrats, but it's silly to make such broad assumptions that all Dems are antis just as it would be silly to assume all Republicans are pro.

Glenn E. Meyer
August 28, 2009, 10:20 AM
We don't do the endless, you have to be of one party to be worthy - blah, blah.

So, I opine that all sides of the debate have been clearly defined. We are heading into politics and ideological purity as defining friendship and talking about specific parties.

Nothing else to be said. Thanks for the heated but rational debate.

The show is over. :D