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Fremmer
August 21, 2009, 01:31 PM
Elderly man arrested after firing shot
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BY STAN FINGER
The Wichita Eagle
An insurance adjuster brought two people with him _ a father and his daughter _ to a house on South Dellrose early Thursday evening to inspect the roof for hail damage.

But someone must have neglected to notify the elderly man who lived there, or else he forgot about it.

He came out of the house in the 400 block of South Dellrose with a handgun and ordered the three others off of his property, police said. As they were leaving, the resident fired a shot to encourage them.

None of the three _ the 41-year-old insurance adjuster, the 27-year-old man and his 9-year-old daughter _ were injured in the incident, which occurred shortly before 7 p.m.

The 70-year-old resident was arrested and booked into jail.

Reach Stan Finger at 316-268-6437 or sfinger@wichitaeagle.com.


So there ya go. I'm sure the 9 year old was a clear threat (sarcasam). :rolleyes: See what happens when an idiot pull his gun and makes a big mistake? Knowing when not to pull out a gun is an important, although often neglected, part of good tactics and training.

Tamara
August 21, 2009, 02:10 PM
I'm trying to figure out why he felt the need to throw down in the first place. :confused:

azredhawk44
August 21, 2009, 02:16 PM
They were on his lawn, of course.:D

"Get off my lawn, you damn kids!"

I can appreciate responding armed to strangers in your backyard (if they were indeed in the backyard; to inspect a roof I would imagine you would have to be).

Gun in hand or in holster.

Not necessarily pointed at anyone though.

Certainly not encouraging a speedy departure with a boolit though. Sounds like he is getting what he deserved.

sakeneko
August 21, 2009, 02:29 PM
Given the age of the shooter, I guess it's possible he might be suffering from the onset of some age-related dementia. Early symptoms of Alzheimer's, Vascular Dementia, and other types of dementia include loss of judgment and diminishing self-control in emotional situations, such that a seemingly trivial event can set someone off who was not known to be short-tempered. I hope this man's family and/or defense attorney get him to a doctor for an evaluation. If that's the case, then he needs to give up control of his guns and probably could use some help around the home, but I hope the DA is flexible.

Of course, maybe this guy is simply a living example of the maxim, "There's no fool like an old fool." :/ If that's the case, and the DA cracks down, I have no objection at all.

Creeper
August 21, 2009, 03:57 PM
"Get off my lawn, you damn kids!"
Reminds me (a little bit) of the Clint Eastwood movie - "Grand Torino"... one of the best movies I've seen in years.

C

OldMarksman
August 21, 2009, 04:07 PM
Posted by azredhawk44:

I can appreciate responding armed to strangers in your backyard (if they were indeed in the backyard; to inspect a roof I would imagine you would have to be).

Gun in hand or in holster.

Not necessarily pointed at anyone though.

Not a good idea, at least in Arizona! What one person may be able to appreciate may land someone in hot water.

After September 30, 2009, the Arizona homeowner will have a little more leeway when it comes to displaying a firearm, but he will be permitted to do so only if "physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.”

Under such circumstances, the law will permit "Defensive Display of a Firearm", which includes....

Verbally informing another person that you possess or have a firearm available.
Exposing or displaying a firearm in a manner that a reasonable person would understand was meant to protect oneself against another’s use or attempted use of unlawful physical or deadly force.
Placing your hand on a firearm while the firearm is contained in a pocket, purse or other form of containment or transport.

http://arizonaccwpermit.com/2009/07/14/new-arizona-law-passed-to-clarify-defensive-display-of-a-firearm/

The law that remains in effect until September 30 is far more restrictive.

Of course, the OP is about a case in Wichita. I doubt the laws about a gun in hand are any less restrictive than the new AZ law; however, a gun in holster on one's own land or in one's own abode might be OK, absent any implied threats. Lay opinion.

azredhawk44
August 21, 2009, 04:21 PM
OldMarksman: I have heard of many situations here in AZ where a homeowner responds, from a peaceful activity in his home, out to the outside of his property with firearm in hand (shotgun or handgun).

Not everyone takes the time to buckle on a holster prior to responding to something out of the norm.

I've not heard of any prosecutions resulting from an investigation on one's own property with a bared firearm.

The law you reference is intended for defensive display by people who carry outside of the home.

As an aside... the reporter that wrote that article you linked needs to do a better job. There's no reference to a legislature bill number, no reference to an ARS number, and no exact citation of the law in question. Bad reporting.

Sixer
August 21, 2009, 04:48 PM
I have to inspect houses on a regular basis and have yet to be shot at :D

Always bring a business card and make sure to ring the doorbell before you go looking around someone else's property.

It makes me wonder what kind of a situation the insurance adjuster would have been in if he had been carrying a firearm...

Could he have returned fire? I know he was evidently on the others persons property... but if he felt his life, or the little girl's life was in REAL danger from the crazy old man, I couldn't help but think that property lines may have become an afterthought. After all, the old man was arrested for "breaking the law" on his own property...

NWPilgrim
August 21, 2009, 05:19 PM
Given the age of the shooter, I guess it's possible he might be suffering from the onset of some age-related dementia. Early symptoms of Alzheimer's, Vascular Dementia, and other types of dementia include loss of judgment and diminishing self-control in emotional situations, such that a seemingly trivial event can set someone off who was not known to be short-tempered. I hope this man's family and/or defense attorney get him to a doctor for an evaluation. If that's the case, then he needs to give up control of his guns and probably could use some help around the home, but I hope the DA is flexible.

Strong possibility. My Dad just died a couple of years ago from many years of Parkinsons, and we have several older friends with Alzheimer's and Parkinsons. Really tragic.

These brain diseases can start affecting thinking long before they display physical symptoms (except to a well trained eye). For instance with Parkinsons the thinking becomes rigid much as the muscles will become later. This is later observed as fixated focus or repeated behaviors. These diseases can start as early as the mid-60s, maybe earlier. My dad had noticeable symptoms by 78 yrs. (very late diagnosis by an HMO). A friend of ours with no apparent physical symptoms was just diagnosed with it at about 68 yrs.

The 70-yr old could just be a grouchy old coot, or he could be mentally ill. Or, perhaps he was recently mugged. There are some cases lately where meth heads will bring their kids along for a breka-in just to allay the victim's fears long enough fo them to get inside.

Hopefully he has family nearby that can help him get help or settled down.

OldMarksman
August 21, 2009, 08:17 PM
I've not heard of any prosecutions [in Arizona] resulting from an investigation on one's own property with a bared firearm.


So what?

Check out the Arizona CCW website and look for the white paper by attorney Michael Anthony. To my knowledge, it hasn't been revised to reflect the new law that will soon be effective--but it does describe the consequences of displaying a weapon before it is needed for self defense.

Occasionally, one will encounter a law that has different application on one's own property than elsewhere. The Wichita municipal ordnance on open carry is an example. Florida has it examples. Those are rare and do not generally extend to the display or other use of a fire arm. Do you know of an exception in Arizona?

Farmland
August 21, 2009, 08:25 PM
It is hard to say what goes through the minds of some elderly people. I remember about 10 years ago a elderly man was upset with some kids who kept riding dirt bikes through his property. One day he took a high powered rifle and shot one of them.

Of course he killed the kid who was around 14 and the man was arrested and charged.

Stevie-Ray
August 21, 2009, 10:40 PM
Early symptoms of Alzheimer's, Vascular Dementia, and other types of dementia include loss of judgment and diminishing self-control in emotional situations, such that a seemingly trivial event can set someone off who was not known to be short-tempered.It cost my dad his 1903 Colt, which my mom gave to me, eager to get it out of the house. Alzheimer's was doing some very strange things to Dad, and she wasn't about to find out how he was around firearms. He finally asked about it when we were alone and I had to do some fancy lying, something that still bothers me after 22 years.

Fremmer
August 22, 2009, 08:26 AM
Even if we presume that the guy's action of pulling the gun was legally justified, could there have been a better way to handle the alleged tresspassers (including the little kid) other than pulling out a gun?

Skans
August 22, 2009, 09:04 AM
You just don't pull a gun out unless there is a clear and present danger. People might walk across your property for a number of reasons, not intending to do any harm. A simple "what are y'all doing here" would have been the appropriate response. 70 years old is a little early to have serious alzheimers, but not unheard of. And, even then, people with Alzheimers have difficulty remembering recent events...I suspect that handling a gun is something that the man learned long ago. Besides, the people were leaving - firing a shot would never have been justified. That 9 year old girl must have been real threatening!!

Bottom line is that the man should have known better and he deserved to be arrested. He was just being a cranky old man for no good reason trying to prove some point. Hope he enjoys his vacation.

One more nail in the coffin for gun owners, especially elder gun owners. If you're going to be a jackass, please do it without a gun so the entire free world doesn't have to suffer for your jackassery.

Tamara
August 22, 2009, 09:08 AM
Even if we presume that the guy's action of pulling the gun was legally justified, could there have been a better way to handle the alleged tresspassers (including the little kid) other than pulling out a gun?
That seems to be what everybody's saying.

Why? Aren't you getting enough argument to suit yourself or something? :confused:

sakeneko
August 22, 2009, 10:43 AM
Early symptoms of Alzheimer's, Vascular Dementia, and other types of dementia include loss of judgment and diminishing self-control in emotional situations, such that a seemingly trivial event can set someone off who was not known to be short-tempered.
It cost my dad his 1903 Colt, which my mom gave to me, eager to get it out of the house. Alzheimer's was doing some very strange things to Dad, and she wasn't about to find out how he was around firearms. He finally asked about it when we were alone and I had to do some fancy lying, something that still bothers me after 22 years.

I can imagine. That's the sort of situation with *NO* good answers to the problems that come up. My father died in 2002 after a couple of years of being bedridden and not recognizing anybody (vascular dementia in his case). The previous decade had been difficult for my siblings who lived near him. He wouldn't give up driving until he ran off the road and hit a telephone pole, and the police caught him in an unmistakeably senile rage. :/

I wouldn't let it bother you. You did the best you could at the time, in a situation where the truth could have done your father absolutely no good at all.

Glenn E. Meyer
August 22, 2009, 11:15 AM
Some of the scientific journals have discussed the problems of guns and elderly. Don't have the reference here but it's starting to be noticed.

I have seen some shooters in competition get confused. At the range, I saw a middle aged son have to wrestle a rifle away from Dad who refused to put in down during a cease fire to put up new targets. Dad stated he knew how to shoot, blah, blah. It wasn't pretty.

A friend of mine just had a old Dad who was forbidden to drive, take the car off he went. :eek:

Fremmer
August 22, 2009, 12:53 PM
Why? Aren't you getting enough argument to suit yourself or something?

Not seeking argument. Seeking higher thinking. Sometimes the legally permissible action is not the best one, regardless of what a state statute allows.

mp25ds4
August 22, 2009, 12:59 PM
3 people were injured by a man who fired one shot? did i read that correctly?

m&p45acp10+1
August 22, 2009, 02:23 PM
Thankfuly no one was injured. It looks like the insurance adjuster was having the other guy bid a job to repair the roof. The old man before finding out what was going on came out and acted like a compleet fool. Firing a shot as they were leaving was the final straw. I hope they charge him with child endagerment so that he can not have a firearm and maybe next time shoot one of the neighborhood kids chasing thier ball into his yard.

Lost Sheep
August 22, 2009, 04:56 PM
3 people were injured by a man who fired one shot? did i read that correctly?
__________________
Liberal Newscaster Katie Couric, while interviewing a Marine sniper, asked:
'What do you feel.....when you shoot a Terrorist?'
The Marine shrugged and replied, "A Slight Recoil."
I read that sentence correctly the first time I saw it. Then, a few days later read it too quickly and missed the first four words.
None of the three _ the 41-year-old insurance adjuster, the 27-year-old man and his 9-year-old daughter _ were injured in the incident, which occurred shortly before 7 p.m.
It makes a big difference.

By the way, have you noticed that your signature's tag line has double meanings? Recoil of the rifle and recoil at killing another human being? (A good soldier does what he does because it is necessary. Not despite conscience, but because of it.)

Lost Sheep

PT111
August 22, 2009, 05:15 PM
Given the age of the shooter, I guess it's possible he might be suffering from the onset of some age-related dementia. Early symptoms of Alzheimer's, Vascular Dementia, and other types of dementia include loss of judgment and diminishing self-control in emotional situations, such that a seemingly trivial event can set someone off who was not known to be short-tempered. I hope this man's family and/or defense attorney get him to a doctor for an evaluation. If that's the case, then he needs to give up control of his guns and probably could use some help around the home, but I hope the DA is flexible

A friend of mine had his Father-in-law walk over to him one day and said "I am going to kill that woman in the house over three". He was talking about his wife who lived next door with him but had no idea who she was but she had made him mad for some reason. That was the day they decided that something had to be done. He was absolutely serious about killing his wife and even told how he was going to get his gun and do it.

sakeneko
August 22, 2009, 09:43 PM
Some of the scientific journals have discussed the problems of guns and elderly. Don't have the reference here but it's starting to be noticed.

I think that this is simply part of the whole issue of handling the increasing disabilities that come along as the various types of dementia progress. In the same category with "When do you take away their guns?" are "When do you take the car keys away?" and "When do you move them out of their home and into a care facility or with you?" :/ There's no easy way for a child to do any of these things to a parent that child loves. There's no easy way for *anybody* to do this, even when it's essential because the elderly person is a danger to himself/herself and/or other people.

I have seen some shooters in competition get confused. At the range, I saw a middle aged son have to wrestle a rifle away from Dad who refused to put in down during a cease fire to put up new targets. Dad stated he knew how to shoot, blah, blah. It wasn't pretty.

The last time I competed in a shooting competition, I was fourteen years old, so I haven't seen this. I have, however, had a friend who had multiple physical and emotional ailments that left her a hazard on the road, and have had friends with parents that insisted on continuing to drive even when they were unable to remember where home was or even recognize their children. As I said, these are all the same issue.

If this is what was going on with the 70-year-old man whose story started this whole thread, I hope that the DA has the sense and decency to be the bad guy and insist (before a judge, if necessary) that absolutely essential safety measures be taken. The local DA did this with my father -- insisted he give up his driver's license in return for not being prosecuted for reckless driving. That took a huge burden off of my brothers, who otherwise would have had to report my father to the local DMV. Given my father's general attitude and condition, I suspect that would have ended what little relationship they had with him.

A friend of mine had his Father-in-law walk over to him one day and said "I am going to kill that woman in the house over three". He was talking about his wife who lived next door with him but had no idea who she was but she had made him mad for some reason. That was the day they decided that something had to be done. He was absolutely serious about killing his wife and even told how he was going to get his gun and do it.

If he hadn't given up gun ownership some years earlier, my brothers would have had to take them from my father as well, or at least tell the judge that he had guns. Fortunately he wasn't married to anybody at the time.

Dwight55
August 23, 2009, 02:08 PM
Stevie-Ray wrote:
"Early symptoms of Alzheimer's, Vascular Dementia, and other types of dementia include loss of judgment and diminishing self-control in emotional situations, such that a seemingly trivial event can set someone off who was not known to be short-tempered.

It cost my dad his 1903 Colt, which my mom gave to me, eager to get it out of the house. Alzheimer's was doing some very strange things to Dad, and she wasn't about to find out how he was around firearms. He finally asked about it when we were alone and I had to do some fancy lying, something that still bothers me after 22 years. "

Steve, . . . if you were my son, . . . I would be looking down from heaven right now and thanking the Lord for a son who loved me enough to do what you did.

I'm almost 65, . . . there is always the possibility that it will come to me before other things do, . . . and I trust my wife and son and daughter in law will do just what you and your mother did do, . . . as to not do it could very well put them in jeapardy.

May God bless,
Dwight

PT111
August 23, 2009, 02:42 PM
Dwight55....Amen.

We had to take my mother's car and finally placed her in a nursing home for lack of a better term. Right now she doesn't even know that she is not at home most of the time and yes we "lie" to her but it would do no good to try to tell her different. My sister finally made the decision to take her car keys after I had tried to convince my sister to do it for several weeks.

Stevie-Ray...As Dwight55 said I can guarantee you that you are forgiven. It is hard but reasoning goes out the window and lying is acceptable.

LHB1
August 23, 2009, 03:26 PM
First, I am glad that no one was injured in that incident. My heart goes out to that poor man. It is hard to know what causes a person to act in such an inappropriate manner. Thankfully, not all of us are mentally or physically incapacitated at age 70. I am, by the grace of God, still shooting pistols accurately and safely at least once a week. Just started teaching my 9 year old grandson to shoot pistols safely and correctly with his parents' permission. They also let me take him on trips during the summer to see Yellowstone and Grand Tetons NPs. I dread the day that my mental or physical condition will force me to give up these pleasures.

Mannlicher
August 24, 2009, 08:55 AM
reminds me of my old 97 year old land lord when I was in college.

We had called and ordered a pizza, but Pop thought the delivery guy was a Yankee soldier, and fired off a round from his old trap door 45-70.

His family removed the rifle, and all was forgiven. Course that was back in the early 60's. and most certainly in another world from the one we live in now. :D

NWPilgrim
August 24, 2009, 01:14 PM
When my grandfather started going senile my dad filed down the firing pin on his old Spanish Mauser. He was later committed to a VA mental hospital when his mentla and physical condition got too much for my grnadmother.

When my dad was starting to go downhill with Parkinsons he just gave me all his guns. I am a jump ahead of him. I am not waiting until I am disabled, I am giving many of my guns to my daughters and sons-in-law and just keeping a core collection. Lots more fun to see them enjoying the guns rather than just collecting dust.

Tom Servo
August 24, 2009, 06:53 PM
This may be the first time that thread drift on the internet hasn't bugged me. This has steered from yet another "doofus with a gun" thread to something viable and important.

I watched a relative disintegrate (I can think of no other word) from a combination of Parkinson's and Alzheimer's. Within six years, she went from being a tough old bird to being unable to identify her surroundings or relatives most days.

Should I start losing my mental faculties, I hope I would notice and still have enough lucidity to divest myself of my guns. Should I not, I hope that someone cares as much as Dwight did and intervenes.

Dwight, you did just fine.

Fremmer
August 24, 2009, 07:44 PM
And until more information is presented actually verfiying that the defendant is mentally ill, he remains classified as "another doofuss with a gun."

We'll have to see if we get more information about this matter.

Although I don't mind the thread drift.

James K
August 24, 2009, 07:56 PM
This is not to justify anyone's actions or take sides, but why would someone having legitimate business on another's property not ring the doorbell or knock and inform the resident what he/she is doing there. I suppose an exception would be the postal carrier, or a meter reader, but those people usually are in a marked vehicle, are in uniform and/or are expected.

Jim

wally626
August 24, 2009, 08:47 PM
This is not to justify anyone's actions or take sides, but why would someone having legitimate business on another's property not ring the doorbell or knock and inform the resident what he/she is doing there. I suppose an exception would be the postal carrier, or a meter reader, but those people usually are in a marked vehicle, are in uniform and/or are expected.

Jim

If the land is not posted you can enter without permission for lawful purposes. It could be they had permission and the gentleman forgot he gave it, someone else could have given permission and told them not to disturb him. They could have rang the bell and received no answer and decided to go ahead and check the damage as long as they were there.

PT111
August 24, 2009, 09:04 PM
The article doesn't say and we have assumed, however they could have rung the bell and that is when he came out with his gun. The article is very short on details unless I have missed something but it could have been while they were walking up to the door. We have assumed (that word again) that they were walking around the house but we don't know. :)

serf 'rett
September 11, 2009, 03:41 PM
There appear to be some assumptions, because there was a young girl, that the guy was likely having medical/mental problems and should be pitied. It reminds us of our responsibilities to protect older loved ones. If your loved one is currently lucid, now may be the time to discuss with them what to do with firearms in the days to come.
On the flip side, this may be an unreasonably mean person. They are out there, folks. Angry and mean spirited. I worked with one such guy for about six years before he retired. Couple of years later guy shot his wife, called the cops and told them what he’d done, then shot himself before they could get there to intervene.
If the guy in the lead story is one of the nasty mean types, instead of senile, mental, emotional, etc., then I would hope something can be done to mitigate the danger he poses to others.
:confused:Question: If you were the insurance adjuster or dad in this story, how would you retreat from the gun wielding old guy? Back away? Turn away from him? Slow and easy or rapidly?

Sefner
September 11, 2009, 05:56 PM
Sorry to stay on topic here (I keed I keed), but I'd like to just throw out there that the presence of the cute little girl does not mean the people are any less of a threat. Granted the old guy shouldn't have shot at them the way he did, but just because someone comes to your door with a child doesn't mean you let your guard down. Remember the ol' "pretty young lady that needs to use the bathroom" and next thing you know all your jewelry and Rx meds are gone. When I've been in various cities where beggars use small children to get people to let their guard down etc. Obviously no one wants to think of a small child being used to help commit a robbery, but those criminals are clever bastards. Again, what the guy did was wrong, but children do not have an Aura of Good with a radius of 10 yards (shout out to all the nerds out there) that prevents everyone around them from doing bad things, so they are not a reason to not be aware of other red flags or signs.

TEDDY
September 18, 2009, 12:47 PM
I have read this 2 pages and I did not see if he shot at any one.nor does any one know any thing about the curcumstances.how ever you have all made
remarks upon this including that the man may be crazy because hes 70.then you go on about relatives.not all older people are in dementia.
one other thing your remarks about the law are based on your state and may not apply in others.my state considers if you are on someones property you are trespassing and you should know it so your in a very precarious position.
I may agree that he was a little quick but we dont know if he had a lot of that.I had people drive by my house whitch is on my private road.untill I put up a sign saying danger private property. as to age yes some have problems but not all I reload, repair guns ect.and I shoot better than ever and drive carefully.and am 85 and expect to reach 100 like my parents and theirs.

OldMarksman
September 18, 2009, 03:16 PM
...one other thing your remarks about the law are based on your state and may not apply in others.my state considers if you are on someones property you are trespassing and you should know it so your in a very precarious position.

Teddy, in your state that "precarious position" would appear to require you to depart upon request; if you refuse you may be arrested by a law enforcement officer for committing a misdemeanor.

Don't even consider displaying a weapon.

I agree that the comments about possible dementia are way out of line, but based on the facts as reported the man broke the law where he lives, and anyone doing the same thing in most places in this country would also have erred.

A number of people (I'm not including you) seem to think they have the right to take the law into their own hands when they are on their property. With the exception of instances involving unlawful entry into an occupied domicile, car, or place of business in some states, laws involving the use of deadly force or the threat of deadly force usually apply equally to one in his yard, on water company easement, or on the courthouse lawn.

Too much television, maybe?

States do vary, but a long standing principle in trespass law is that the remedy is to request departure and to report the offense if necessary, since detaining the trespasser would defeat the entire purpose of the law, which is to keep him off private property in the first place.

Double Naught Spy
September 18, 2009, 06:29 PM
I'm trying to figure out why he felt the need to throw down in the first place.

LOL, I am trying to figure out why the inspector brought along the father-daughter duo. The inspector might have had permission to be there for a job, but I doubt that permission including guests and their children.

No, it doesn't make the shooting right, but it is another odd aspect to the situation.

zonamo
September 18, 2009, 07:30 PM
Occasionally, one will encounter a law that has different application on one's own property than elsewhere.

That is the case in Arizona. While the changes to the law on conclealed carry are welcome, they don't affect the law regarding defense of premises. Threatening, even with deadly force is justified against trespass out here. Actually using deadly force is another matter.

ARS 13-407. Justification; use of physical force in defense of premises

A. A person or his agent in lawful possession or control of premises is justified in threatening to use deadly physical force or in threatening or using physical force against another when and to the extent that a reasonable person would believe it immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of a criminal trespass by the other person in or upon the premises.

B. A person may use deadly physical force under subsection A only in the defense of himself or third persons as described in sections 13-405 and 13-406.

C. In this section, "premises" means any real property and any structure, movable or immovable, permanent or temporary, adapted for both human residence and lodging whether occupied or not.

Mike Irwin
September 19, 2009, 08:26 AM
Reading threads like this makes me thank God every day that both sides of my family has a LONG history of remaining fully lucid up to the end.

My Grandfather was 86 and was still a practicing engineer. He was on his way to a meeting about renovations to an industrial building he was overseeing when a stroke got him.

Stevie-Ray
September 19, 2009, 12:01 PM
My Grandfather was 86 and was still a practicing engineer.Outstanding!;)