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View Full Version : what does everyone use in there HD shotgun?


therealtwitch
August 20, 2009, 11:57 PM
I am transforming my 870 for home defense purposes. with my 18.5" barrel I can chamber up to 3" mags. so what do you all use in yours? I am leaning toward 2 3/4 00 buck. but as will all things I like to know what the masses are into

hogdogs
August 21, 2009, 12:01 AM
YUP!!!! 2 3/4 inch 00 buck... nothing less is a sure fire and nothing more is needed! in a 20 gauge, the biggest local round is #3 "no farm no Howl..."
brent

hexidismal
August 21, 2009, 12:19 AM
For my standard round I use the Federal Tactical 00 buckshot (LE132-00) . I find that the federal FLITECONTROL wad as they call it does indeed make much better groups then some similar loads. I keep 7 of those in the tube ( of a Mossberg 590 ), and on the 5 round side saddle there are 2 Federal Tactical Hydra Shok Hollow Point Slugs (#LE127RS), 2 Winchester Ranger slugs ( or Remington reduced recoil slugs ) and one good ole full house 3" High velocity slug .. just in case :)

Some people would argue having different ammunition is asking for trouble. If it were all kept in the tube, I'd probably agree. I'm well practiced though and confident enough at grabbing for the right round for the job out of the side saddle if I should need something special in a hurry. I figure I've got the bases covered if for some reason a reduced recoil buckshot isn't doing the trick.. like .. say if a bear or a bad guy wearing body armor breaks in, I'll be pleased I had one slug ready.. heh

ArmedInNOR-CAL
August 21, 2009, 12:36 AM
dead coyote! This stuff kicks like a mule team. Its hevi shot and the pattern stays semi tight at decent distance. You equate this into short range HD = dissmembermant!

Mossy500
August 21, 2009, 12:44 AM
me personally i keep 4 00 buck shot in the mag also i keep a stinger shell (rubber shot) as the first tho be chambered., mainly because i know how the screwed up court system works, and shooting someone with "less lethal" ammo first is a good way to help prove "escalation of force"

mathman
August 21, 2009, 01:01 AM
I use 2 3/4 inch #1 Buckshot...more pellets and pretty much just as effective as 00 Buck...and less chance of penetrating things you don't want to penetrate. ;)

WhiteShadow
August 21, 2009, 01:05 AM
12 gauge 00 Buckshot. Just because.

Shpadoinkel
August 21, 2009, 06:40 AM
Remington Express 00 Buck for right now.

As soon as I can get my hands on some Federal Low Recoil 00 Buck, I'm stocking up with that.

Lee Lapin
August 21, 2009, 11:14 AM
Remington 870s, magazine loaded one short, chamber empty, hammer cocked, safety on.

Federal LE 127-00 (9 pellet 00 buck, 1325 FPS, FliteControl) in the magazine, Brenneke KO slugs in the Sidesaddle. My wife has taken to keeping just Brennekes in 'her' house gun, as she carries it along when she visits her parents in western NC. There's been a nuisance bear in the area up there lately...

lpl

mp25ds4
August 21, 2009, 11:15 AM
depends on whether or not my family is home, birdshot or Fiochii LE #4 buck

Kmar40
August 21, 2009, 11:24 AM
We have these buckshot threads every two days or so.

There is a search function. Try it.

Old Grump
August 21, 2009, 12:10 PM
Yep old subject but just to get the flamers started I submit that my HD load is a 20 gauge 2 3/4" #4 shot. At 24' it is still only 1 1'2" wide, the shot cup is just separating from the shot string and it will ruin any boogermans day with an aimed shot. Mr. Mossberg is up to the challenge and there is always that wonderful sound a pump action makes prior to having to do any trigger work which may or may not change an intruders mind about staying where he isn't wanted.

That distance is the longest shot I am ever going to have to take inside my house and more likely 10' or less would be more realistic. It will blow a 3/4" hole through a 2x4 at 10' so a leather jacket isn't likely to bother it to much.

Don't have many drug crazed, body armor wearing, 300 pound axe murderers in my neck of the woods and I feel this gun and this load is all that is needed without looking like a blood crazed killer to a potential prosecutor or a lawyer for the boogermans family.

I do have 0 and 00 and slugs and I do have a 18 1/2" barreled 12 gauge semi-auto Winchester but unless I am going to war or I am being attacked by a horde of evil people wanting to suck out my brains and eat my children it seems like overkill to me.

SR420
August 21, 2009, 12:26 PM
Alternating Federal 2-3/4 00 and 2-3/4 000 with slugs on the side.

hogdogs
August 21, 2009, 12:28 PM
I am in the boat that says use what you want and feel comfortable with... But...
without looking like a blood crazed killer to a potential prosecutor or a lawyer for the boogermans family.

This is the statement that gets my goat (give her back when yer done please).
No way a DA is going to trump my lawyer with that mindset. Flechettes maybe but not my "over the counter" basic 00 buck shot. My second amendment right to keep and bear arms along with my right to life liberty and happiness says that as long as I am not buying or loading freakish odd rounds I am good to go. Heck... as much as I profess to keeping the HD gun basic, I don't think a tactical shotgun is as risky as the circumstances surronding the use of the weapon...
Brent

NWPilgrim
August 21, 2009, 12:28 PM
First two shells in the mag are 00 buck, and the other four are Remington Sluggers. All are 2 3/4" shells. Buttstock shell holder has three each of 00 and slug.

I figure if two rounds of buckshot didn't stop the threat then they are behind cover of some sort and I'll be needing the slugs.

Lots of different circumstances to consider, YMMV.

wnycollector
August 21, 2009, 01:06 PM
I adhere to the KISS approach to HD ammo in my shotty. I load it with seven low recoil Fiocchi 00 buckshhot rounds, backed up by six more on an elastic butt cuff.

M1911
August 21, 2009, 01:13 PM
2 3/4" 00 buck

Kmar40
August 21, 2009, 07:59 PM
Yep old subject but just to get the flamers startedToo tired. If the newbs (or geezers) are too lazy to read the old threads and look up the documented terminal ballistic performance, then I'm not going to do it for them.

Ignorance is bliss.

ADB
August 23, 2009, 01:58 AM
It doesn't really matter what you use--at home defense type ranges, any standard shell is going to be capable of instant death, and any shell can and will go through walls.

neon
August 23, 2009, 03:46 AM
2 3/4 00 buck

bird shot is for birds :D

OnTarget
August 23, 2009, 04:18 AM
I keep 00 buck as my primarily defense round, and it is more common as far as getting it locally. I do have a much smaller amount of slugs around in case of an unusual situation that calls for it. Birdshot may be used in some defense situations, but is definitely easier on the wallet at the range compared to buckshot.

hoytinak
August 23, 2009, 04:36 AM
I keep my Mossberg 500 loaded with Fiocchi 2 3/4" Low Recoil 00 buck.

Regular Joe
August 23, 2009, 05:02 AM
Shells. In the gun, the first 3 are Rem. 3" mag in #2 steel shot, followed by 2 of Rem. 3" mag with #4 buck. Just for fun, I shot a 24 oz. propane cylinder at 25 ft. with a 2-3/4" heavy load of #4 lead. There were 8 penetration points, and the thing flew about 60 feet (empty when hit). Inside a room, it doesn't matter what load you use. Even the cheap field loads with 7-1/2 shot will make a ghastly mess of a man, and will be much more recoverable if you have to keep shooting. These threads really do get way too much air time.

NeroBrandt
August 23, 2009, 10:28 AM
2 3/4" 00 buck in the the 12 gauges and 2 3/4" #1 buck in the 16 gauge. (Buckshot for the 16 gauge is hard to find)

mskdgunman
August 23, 2009, 10:52 AM
As far as the OP question goes, 00 buck. In rgards to the poster who keeps a less lethal round as the first one in the gun, I recently spoke with one of our lead Felony intake attorneys in my area (Central Florida...10th Judicial to be exact) in regards to this on behalf of a friend. He reccommended against it legally. In FL, discharging a firearm is generally considered to be lethal force whether or not you intended to kill the person or not. If someone is in your house,shooting them with a less lethal round could expose you to more trouble then just doing it the right way to begin with in that the question will be "if you didn't feel that your life was in danger, then why did you fire the weapon at all?" as you can only use deadly force if you feel that your life is in danger. We don't use it to scare people. Would you be prosecuted? Probably not but the circumstances will of course dictate that. The civil end is where you may get hosed by the bad guy and his attorney.


In FL at least, if someone breaks into your house, it's basically game on.

Now, your local laws will of course vary and this is by no means a binding decision. It's simply an opinion from a pretty good prosecutor who has been around the block several time is also very 2A friendly (I've been shooting with him several times). LEO's have policies written for the deployment of less lethal rounds but they are never deployed without a back up standing by with a lethal force option as sometimes, all those beanbags do is **** a bad guy off. YMMV, It's just something to consider.

M1911
August 23, 2009, 11:11 AM
Bird shot has its uses
Yes, it does. For birds ;)

As far as the OP question goes, 00 buck. In rgards to the poster who keeps a less lethal round as the first one in the gun, I recently spoke with one of our lead Felony intake attorneys in my area (Central Florida...10th Judicial to be exact) in regards to this on behalf of a friend. He reccommended against it legally.
In LFI-1 and 2, Ayoob's recommendation followed that of your attorney friend. Shooting at someone is lethal force. If you are justified in shooting at them, then use standard ammunition. If you are not justified in shooting at them, then don't.

qwik
August 23, 2009, 12:42 PM
Remington 12 gauge, 2 3/4 length, 1200 velocity, 8 pellets, 00bk (managed-recoil buckshot-- lower recoil)

roy reali
August 23, 2009, 12:49 PM
Yes, it does. For birds


So does buckshot, for male deer.:D

Dave McC
August 23, 2009, 01:41 PM
00, mostly.

One posted 870 has #4 buck in it. Shot opps will be close and level.

BillJunior
August 23, 2009, 01:49 PM
00 Buckshot here as well. Federal 3" Magnum. I use my standard 870 and Mossberg pump.

Edward429451
August 23, 2009, 02:43 PM
I guess I'm the odd man out. I keep 2 3/4" slugs in & on my short barreled shotty. I lost my confidence in 00 Bucks ability ever since the April 17 1993 shooting of a suspect (Eugene Baylis), who walked into Jim & I's bar with a AK-47 and started shooting people. He killed two IIRC.
Police showed up and shot him with 00 Buck at around 15-20 yds and while it did stop him for the moment...they printed a pic of him with multiple band-aids on his head in court a week or so later. I thought ***? shot in the head with buckshot and he's up and around a week later?

Slugs for me thanks.

(They aquitted this guy in a retrial a few years ago and bought defensive use of a (illegal) full auto AK-47 at the door of the bar!!!) Wow.

dabigguns357
August 23, 2009, 03:59 PM
I use slugs as well,but i have a rifled slug barrel.I use winchester x 3 inch for hunting and 2 3/4 winchester managed recoil slugs for hd.

rem870hunter
August 23, 2009, 09:05 PM
winchester super x 2 3/4" #1 buck, remington 2 3/4" slugger slugs

RNB65
August 23, 2009, 09:13 PM
2 3/4" 00 buck

ADB
August 24, 2009, 01:53 AM
Police showed up and shot him with 00 Buck at around 15-20 yds and while it did stop him for the moment...they printed a pic of him with multiple band-aids on his head in court a week or so later. I thought ***? shot in the head with buckshot and he's up and around a week later?

There is no way that someone can be shot in the head with buckshot at that distance and survive unless they're wearing a steel helmet. I don't know the circumstances or what happened there, but that in no way reflects the real world performance of buckshot.

I'll repeat: at home defense distances, any kind of shell is going to be devastating. The shot size doesn't matter much when you're putting a hole clear through your target.

Bill DeShivs
August 24, 2009, 02:51 AM
Skulls are notoriously hard to penetrate. It's not suprising to me at all.
I know of one instance where a man commited suicide by putting a 12 ga loaded with 00 buck in his mouth and pulling the trigger. The shot did not exit the skull.
.38 specials are notorious for not penetrating skulls.

FamilyDog
August 24, 2009, 04:10 AM
Brenneke Tactical HD SLugs in the ready. Federal LE127-00 on the side.

killoften
August 24, 2009, 06:03 AM
Gents, I just couldn't keep quite anymore. Been kinda a read and let live kinda guy for the most part as this bein me first post on this site.... but enough is enough... I can't believe how common opinion for HD shotgun is 00Buck!? Why!? It's SELF DEFENSE! What is the absolute most lethal threat stopping round an American Man can arm himself with? HV Slug of course! Name another, I double dog dare ya! It 1/16 of a lb at 1200 fps! HELLO! This isn't 'hunting' it's personel/family defence! Should you not be be armed with all you can? If you were the perp and you could pick, woulndt you 'kinda' prefer buck? And one could argu its as safe a bet to call it a one shot stop. Will I give him the chance to "think" about it? Probably not. Most of you picked oo buck, but why?!!! Cause it's the biggest 'shot' to shoot? (2 most leathal). Makes less sence than tits on a bull. I'm surgical with slugs, did 3 circumsisions this week alone. You don't NEED "spread" in your house even in the dark. (And don't hold ya breath cause ya ain't gettin it anyway no matter what comes out your tube) You need your shots to count! Ill push through a motha F'r crouched behind my Fridge if need be. NOTHING stops slugs. Nothing! Please save us all the head ach about over-penatration/family. Do your home work. Even bird shot penatrates too far in a house and if you ignored the 5th safety rule about what lies beyong your target you'l be in for a rude surprise. He's in my house/ he's gonna have a closed casket. Period. I mean its as if ya'l are all worried about the lawyers... I'm worried about shooting him hefore he shoots me! What if ya just 'wing' him in the weak shoulder with just 2 pellets? He gets his shot off in your chest. Ya 'wing' him with a slug and the fights over he's missing somethin. I hope I just saved some of your lives. God Bless.

hogdogs
August 24, 2009, 06:15 AM
The only reason I opt for 00 buck over slug is the fact that a pass thru in a soft spot of the body could leave the slug with enuff terminal energy to still kill easily after penetrating a wall. I feel the 00 would have had enuff energy shaved off to be pretty much neutered after a pass thru.
Brent

Mossy500
August 24, 2009, 09:47 AM
The only reason I opt for 00 buck over slug is the fact that a pass thru in a soft spot of the body could leave the slug with enuff terminal energy to still kill easily after penetrating a wall. I feel the 00 would have had enuff energy shaved off to be pretty much neutered after a pass thru.
Brent

+1

M1911
August 24, 2009, 10:38 AM
The point of slugs is to increase your range. I use them when hunting deer. But I won't have a 25 yard shoot inside my home.

IDAHOMIKE
August 25, 2009, 12:03 AM
Maybe its overkill. But my main HD shotgun is a Spanish SxS, in the aforementioned 3.5 in 10. In the bedroom is a Remington SP-10 with the barrel snipped to 21 inches. I have a Browning BPS in the 10 but haven't found a use as far as HD goes. In other parts of the house I do have a more "normal" choice, a Mossberg 500 PGO and she gets fed 00 Federal 3 inchers in 12 gauge.

SCREAMIII2006
August 25, 2009, 11:17 PM
00,slug,00,slug,00,slug, .357 magnum with hollowpoints,throw gun after that:rolleyes:

556A2
August 25, 2009, 11:18 PM
2 3/4" Federal Vital-Shok 00 buckshot

Mossy500
August 25, 2009, 11:47 PM
00,slug,00,slug,00,slug, .357 magnum with hollowpoints,throw gun after that

looks like your ready for the swarm of meth addicted zombies

gunnails
August 26, 2009, 12:01 AM
It just seems that shooting slugs thru a shotgun kinda defeats the purpose of using a shotgun. Why not a hand gun or a rifle, or a bazooka.


I thought the whole idea behind HD shotguns was, there cheap and easy to use, and the errant shot won't kill the neighbor kid.

For up close work even #8 bird shot is going to ruin some ones day.

.45 COLT
August 26, 2009, 12:06 AM
Dixie Tri-Ball.

DC

killoften
August 26, 2009, 04:19 PM
Slugs defeat the purpose of a shot gun?! On the contrary. The Purpose of MY shotgun is DESTROYING the threat! And it fills its purpose quite well. Yes, I understand the "name" of the gun is SHOTgun and a slug is not; but... details details. If I was bird shooting I'd use "shot."

"Why not a hand gun or a rifle, or a bazooka?"

Because my slugs are 438gr and MUCH larger than .50cal <--- ME THINKS THAT MATTERS. I'm assuming the bazooka question wasn't serious. But if you must know... My house isn't large enough for me to be out of "danger close" range of the explosion.

Hand guns are 'portable' made for public carry. Puny... The smallest, least leathal option of all. Good for their "purpose" but not home defense.
Rifles are very long and made for long range. (AR types excluded) But being a Marine I know their limitations in leathality ESPECIALLY in comparison with a HV slug at close range.
Remington 870 Express Magnum HD is made for blasting 2 legged vermin at close range. Why do i need "shot" at close range???! It doesnt penatrate body armor! Those pellets are smaller than .38 rounds! Do any of you use a .38 for HD? Crazy! Ya might wanna ask Santa for a second firearm.

If I hear 'over penatration' one more time I'm gonna hurl. It's BS. The fbi did a study and found that ALL shotgun loads OVERPENATRATE common house hold walls. Even birdshot and the only thing that stops these projectiles are the electrical boxes/switches. Not to mention, the study they did about how many...or i should say, how 'few' rounds fired by fbi agents in a fire fight hit their target. It was something astonishing like 2 rounds for every 10. So... over penatration was found to be much less a concern than stray rounds. And your advocating "SHOT" from a "SCATER GUN!!!?"
I for one don't fire until my rear sight is aligned with my front and my target. "5th safety rule" know what lies BEYOND your target. Anybody who would point any gun in the general direction of their little childen/wife and fire away (in the dark) thinking it's "ok" because they have birdshot or 00 get NO respect from me. None. If thats the only shot I have I'm not taking it. Thats where your tactics and training come in hand.
I'm in no way saying that 00, or 000/0000 isnt leathal. .22's are lethal but none of you rely on that to defend those who rely on you. What I'm saying is that nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing is more lethal than 12g slugs. (avaible to civilains) And the one rare time you can use that leathal firepower IS IN YOUR HOME for SD. Why are so many men insistant on smaller stuff?
To be honest I'm not quite sure how slugs get around the cap law at .50 for rifles but they certainly are larger and much closer to bullets than shot. I mean it's obvious they ARE bullets. I havent had the pleasure of using one on a 2 legged critter but boy is it gonna be grusome! Do Not Threaten My Life/Liberty While I Sleep! I take it personal. We're not talking punching holes, we're talking shape altering. I assume 100% of the time all perps are Grizzly Bears and need to be handled with apropiate ammo. I would not use 00 on a Grizzly. So why would I use it on an armed man with the intent to harm me? In my mind I feel it would be a MORE IMMEDIATE threat stop. When fractions of a second count to such a large degree of life and death. Why take your ammo choice so lightly? Yes, I'm aware slugs are overkill, thats the point!

ADB
August 26, 2009, 04:52 PM
killoften, I suspect you'd get every bit as much lethality if not more out of 00 or 000 buck as one of those slugs. Why? Simple: You're firing the same amount of lead down-range, but the buckshot spreads out the point of impact, and dumps it's energy into the target faster. A slug would probably go completely through a person, and any energy left in it at that point is wasted.

And family isn't the only reason to worry about your backstop: stray shots going into your house electrical wires can spark a fire. Or you could hit a gas line, or a water pipe, etcetera, etcetera.

Edward429451
August 26, 2009, 05:17 PM
There is no way that someone can be shot in the head with buckshot at that distance and survive unless they're wearing a steel helmet. I don't know the circumstances or what happened there, but that in no way reflects the real world performance of buckshot.

I'll repeat: at home defense distances, any kind of shell is going to be devastating. The shot size doesn't matter much when you're putting a hole clear through your target.

?? The Gazette Telegraph of Colorado Springs printed the photo and the story explained that the officer shot the man with 00 Buckshot. It showed a pic in one story that showed the officer cruiser and the suspects truck where the shot took place. I lived <1/2 mile from where the incident took place so meandered up to take a look and paced it off etc...

I'm not asking you to believe it! I'm explaining why I do not have much confidence in buckshot anymore!! If you are that interested in it, research it. The incident took place April 17th 1993 and the following week or so of editions printed photos and the story. The perps name was Eugene Baylis.

15 to 20 yards may NOT represent most HD situations! I concur that up closer the effects of buckshot may be more damaging! I on the other hand, meaning only myself want a little more versatile ammo and ranges possible with my chosen ammo so have chosen to go with slugs moreso than any buckshot. You may go with whatever makes you feel comfortable! Ok?
:)

killoften
August 26, 2009, 07:08 PM
Wooh, Here we go with the "energy dump thing" again/ :(
ADB, On your reasoning, the smaller the pellets the more lethal...? Same weight more spread? 0000 beats 000, and birdshot claims the trophy! :rolleyes: Each light projectile is on it's own and "sharing" all the same powder. I'm just gonna come out and say it. There quite honestly is NO DEBATE on the fact slugs are more lethal than shot. Please sombody step in here. :confused: If ANYTHING a nay-sayer would want to argu against slugs it's the whole over penatration thing, or not being as guerented to hit the target as much as a spreading lot. Etc, Etc. And even the other thing you mentiond like hitting the pipes in my walls. lol (I'll get to that in a sec.) Not that slugs are less leathal upon impact. :eek:I never saw that one commin.
Slugs are soft, very soft, and although they absolutly proably will travel completly through. Them slugs are gonna be extremly deformed and pushing all kinds of hydrostatic presure out the back. That extra energy is fine with me, she's done her job. And needed to make the exit wound (which is a large large bleeding "shape changing" hole you can put a phone book in.
Ever seen a video of a slug hitting a block of balistic gel? The energy finds it way all over the block! ahahah jumps up off the table. When you see a comparison on 00 it's quite a bore in comparison. And for the record somebody mentioned earlier about traveling through a person and then into another room or house. I'm sure upon exit the lead is still several hundred fps give or take a few hundred fps :p But very deform'd/flat and not going to travel well through other barriers. And again over penatration causing "colateral damage" is just a risk I'm going to have to take for self preservation. No more risk than any person (scared) shooting pistol rounds or shot, possibly only hitting small targets like a biecep and passing right through or missing complelty. It is what it is. That's why that 5th un-written rule needs to be written.

And ADB, no disrespect. I don't mean to single you out but as for the damage I do to my house wiring, or plumbing... ??? I don't know, I don't think that's something I should concider when concerned with defending my life by ending another. I could not care less about those things. In the 1:1,000,000 chance I start a fire, the police should be arriving shortly and it's not exactly like i'll be heading back off to bed anyway. :D

inSight-NEO
August 26, 2009, 07:20 PM
For now, I prefer using Federal LE Low-Recoil 00 Buck (9 pellet). I consider this to be a very controllable and reliable load which is capable of exceptionally tight patterns; works for me.

Given my present location, I generally avoid using slugs for HD duty.

And again over penatration causing "colateral damage" is just a risk I'm going to have to take for self preservation.

Not that Im obsessed with overpenetration, but this comment of yours is a bit demonstrative of a cavalier attitude, no? Such damage may be a part of warfare, but for HD...well, this could land one in jail quite quickly (assuming the "collateral damage" is an innocent bystander).

You are right in that "collateral damage" can happen regardless of the load used, but lessening the odds is not a bad thing. Anyway, given the close quarters usually involved in an HD encounter, is a slug really necessary vs. say, 00 Buck?

Now, Im not sure of the exact numbers, but from what I gather the overall velocity/range of slugs vs. 00 Buck renders the use of slugs (for HD) as just too dangerous for most urban environments. In regards to rural use, the slug might be more acceptable based on certain criteria.

Just my 2 cents.

Willie Lowman
August 26, 2009, 07:32 PM
what does everyone use in there HD shotgun? Shells, hopefully.

I am in a transitional period, my HD shotgun is in the safe. My HD rifle is loaded with 55gr FMJ

Edward429451
August 26, 2009, 07:55 PM
I agree with Killoften, well said.

but this comment of yours is a bit demonstrative of a cavalier attitude, no?

I don't think so. We're discussing a very serious situation and while the odds of it happening are low, it behooves us to consider the situation carefully down to the details. Simply discussing it and writing things is not necessarily being cavilier about it.;)

There's priorities if something goes wrong at home. First things first!

inSight-NEO
August 26, 2009, 08:02 PM
We're discussing a very serious situation and while the odds of it happening are low, it behooves us to consider the situation carefully down to the details.

Agreed...the possibility of collateral damage, if speaking of human life, (and doing what one can to minimize such damage, while still remaining "prepared" vs. maybe saying "oh well, it is what it is") being one of those "details."

Simply discussing it and writing things is not necessarily being cavilier about it.

Again, agreed. Keep in mind, I was simply referencing one statement made by this individual....not making an "all out" assessment of his overall motives/reasoning as pertaining to HD. ;)

Now, if by "collateral damage" he was referring to structural/property damage rather than the accidental harming/death of an innocent individual, then I agree with his statement 100%. Property means nothing when defending ones life or the lives of loved ones.

My apologies (in retrospect) if I misinterpreted this individuals statement. However, if his intention was to include innocent life within the category of "collateral damage," I must then stand by my original statement. Fair enough?

Old Grump
August 26, 2009, 09:49 PM
Had a friend up from Georgia last weekend and we had pretty much the same conversation so we did my little demonstration I use for my gun safety classes. Taking into account not many shots in most houses are going to exceed 24' and 10' is more likely I had him fire 3 shells out of my 20 gauge. All 2 3/4" #4 shot. At 25 yards it pretty much covered the 9"x11" sheet of paper with my 50' pistol bullseye target on it and the shot was centered in the bull. At 35' there were a few shots scattered but most of them were in a hole about 1 3/4" in diameter, at 10' there was a 1" diameter hole blown through a 2"x4".

People aren't paper, or milk jugs full of water or liter bottles of ice but they are flesh and blood and every shoot is different but at my arbitrary distance of 24' my shot cup is just falling away from the shot string. Those little pellets may not blow his head off but it will sure enough ruin his day.

I do not want to see any more body bags but if an intruder gets in my house and threatens my family he is going to be unwell even if I accidentally shoot him with #6 or 7 1/2 shot but #4 was bought specifically for turkey hunting and home defense. I shoot it a lot and have confidence in it. I didn't necessarily convince my buddy to give up his 3" 12 gauge but he understands my point of view now. There are other people in my house besides me and I don't want buck or slugs going through a wall into their bedrooms after going through a boogerman and #4 makes me confident that won't happen.

killoften
August 26, 2009, 09:50 PM
Gents,
Real quick here, glad to see this thread pickin up. :D

Let me clarify, I might have been on a "roll" and worded myself a little cavilier ;)
By "colateral damage" I meant ANYTHING the round strikes beyond my target. Definition ain't it?
Good God! I wouldn't want for a second to harm any peacful American. ESPECIALLY a neighbor of mine and quite possibly a child sleeping. Nothing could be more unthinkable. But yes, with the discharge of a firearm, ANYWHERE not on a "range" it's a posability. For ALL of us. And that is somethin we all need to think seriously about. I'm not goin down in this thread bein the guy that endangers his strangers without a care or second thought.
It is my 'edacated assumtion' that the risk is low, and for reasons I've coverd pretty exstensivly. Therefore, I refuse to choose a less effective weapon for my and my familys right to life. Espcecially since all those other "less effective" options make pretty efective, "people sleeping in their bed killers."
Man, that sounds bad, I can't believe I just typed that. lol But all kiding aside, it's true! And for reasons I've coverd exstensivly.
If it makes you feel any better I believe using a pump action, sholder fired weapon, with a high recoil and limited rounds, keeps me focused on making each shot count. (especially having to mannualy pump each round) And even under duress I'm not just "spraying and praying"
Which is more than can be said for a lot of people rockin high capacity AR's with 30rd mags, or scared men squeezing on a pistol. Not to say that's how all people respond but... you know, you know.

I was just using that military word (colateral damge) becuase it IS something we take seriously. Especialy with exploding rounds, or multiple burts of .50cal ammunition. And that's to protect other nations peacful inhabatants!

All an all, no offence takin. Enjoy the read guys.:D

P.S. Somebody PLEASE tell me how to "Quote:" replys???!!!!:confused:

LanceOregon
August 26, 2009, 10:54 PM
OO Buckshot is way, way overkill. There is no need at all to go with such large shot.

It is much better and more effective to use smaller shot that gives you many more hits on the target. The trauma produced will be far greater, and your odds of hitting vital areas much higher.

I used to have Federal Premium 2 3/4 inch Magnum Copper plated BB shot in my gun. And that load is still available on the market for anyone to use. However, I have since replaced that with Federal's Premium 2 3/4 inch Magnum Copper plated #4 Buckshot. I still have over 100 rounds of that left, and it is what is in my gun now.

Federal sadly decided last year to take this load off the commercial market, so it unfortunately is now extremely difficult for civilians to get hold of. It is now only being sold to Law Enforcement as part of their LE product lineup, having been deemed too deadly to continue to sell to the general public.

I was lucky to grab a bunch of boxes from the final commercial inventory I could locate. It fires 34 .24 caliber copper plated #4 buckshot at 1,250 fps, and is absolutely devastating in its impact.

With 8 +1 shells in my shotgun, that is a heck of a lot of firepower. 9 x 34 = 306 buckshot


http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/DSC_0131a_on_filtered.jpg



My Magnum BB load I used to have in my shotgun has 72 .18 caliber copper plated BB's in it. Multiple that by 9, and you get 648 projectiles!!

Federal still has commercial civilian #4 Buckshot loads available. The only difference is that the buckshot is plain lead, and is not copper plated. You can get 2/34 inch 12 gauge shells with either 27 #4 Buckshot going 1,325 fps, or a magnum version with 34 #4 Buckshot at 1.250 fps, which is identical ballistics to this Premium load I have.

Here is the Federal ammo web page for info on their civilian #4 Buckshot loads:

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/buckshot.aspx


And here is a web page on Federal's Law Enforcement website with info about this Premium load that I have in my shotgun:

http://le.atk.com/general/federalproducts/shotshell/fedprembcksht.aspx



--

LanceOregon
August 26, 2009, 11:20 PM
Here is a photo of the two Federal shotshells that I referred to above:

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/ammo-1.jpg

-

ADB
August 26, 2009, 11:40 PM
ADB, On your reasoning, the smaller the pellets the more lethal...? Same weight more spread? 0000 beats 000, and birdshot claims the trophy!

Actually, at home defense ranges birdshot will pretty much turn your target into sausage. Smaller projectiles lose speed faster than larger ones, but over the short distances you'd be talking about in home defense, that's not much of a factor.

ANY kind of shell coming out of a 12 gauge, at under 20 feet, is going to be fatal and it's probably going to be fatal in a really spectacular way. The only question is range to target and penetration. It doesn't matter if you're ten feet away versus twenty, or whether the target is wearing a thick coat.

Slugs will penetrate ballistic gelatin to a depth of up to 35 inches, which is far in excess of what's necessary. Think about the depth of somebody's chest.

I'm not trying to talk you out of your preference, I'm simply saying that in terms of taking out a target, it certainly shouldn't be considered necessary to use slugs for home defense.

Cumminspwrd02
August 27, 2009, 12:16 AM
In my 870 I have 7 shots of 2 3/4 00 buck w/ 5 extra in the holder on the stock. If that doesn't take the BG down then i have 6 shots in a colt cobra .38 special.

Edward429451
August 27, 2009, 05:08 AM
My apologies (in retrospect) if I misinterpreted this individuals statement. However, if his intention was to include innocent life within the category of "collateral damage," I must then stand by my original statement. Fair enough?

Fair enough.
The discussion was HD so any collateral damage to innocent life would most likely be family, so I took it as a given that one would not speak of his family like that, and that he meant the structure!

Dave McC
August 27, 2009, 07:52 AM
Killoften, the databases show that slugs and 00 have the same percentage of one shot stops.

99%.

00 does penetrate less. Most folks think that's good.

I've shot enough deer with slugs to know they can leave the target and wreak harm elsewhere.

As for birdshot, it works as well when used close enough. That seems to be less than ten yards.

Close enough with 00 is more like 25 yards.

Definition: Close enough means all pellets in the target. For HD use, about 15" max.

The trouble is, we cannot predict the distance of the next firefight. If the action moves outside, it may not be feasible to empty the magazine and recharge with 00 or slugs.

Mostly 00 is used here, but one shotgun posted where shot opps will be close and parallel to the ground AT ground level has 4 buck in it. Any likely crisis management with that one will see the shot still in the cup at terminus.

There's no "One Size Fits All" approach to ammo selection. Proper selection takes time, effort, thought and a patterning board.

Dismounting from pulpit....

Kmar40
August 27, 2009, 08:47 AM
Actually, at home defense ranges birdshot will pretty much turn your target into sausage. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

tater134
August 27, 2009, 02:51 PM
I keep my Norinco 97 loaded with Remington 2-3/4 00 Buck

el_gringo
August 27, 2009, 03:06 PM
In the bedroom my 870 is loaded with 3" 00 buckshot. The 870 kept outside the bedroom is loaded with 3 1/2" 00 buckshot.

I'm young, I live alone in not the best area (not the worst either), and I have good recoil pads.

hogdogs
August 27, 2009, 04:34 PM
ACTUALLY If you cannot guarantee 9 inches of penetration in the human body, you can keep it! I prefer to look for 12 inches! I feel I am pushing my luck by expecting my #3 buck from my 20 gauge to do the job so I have practiced "TAP PUMP TAP" with a slight rise of the muzzle on the second round from the first.
That ought to do the trick for all but the tuffest thug. For him I have the .30-30 in the closet with 6 170 grainers.
Brent

inSight-NEO
August 27, 2009, 06:26 PM
Therefore, I refuse to choose a less effective weapon for my and my familys right to life.

I agree...to a point. What I mean is, in using OO Buck (in my case, Im speaking of the lower velocity "low recoil" version) vs. using slugs, you really arent losing much in terms of "stopping power," IMHO. However, what you are giving up is unnecessary penetration, even if the BG is wearing thick winter gear. This is why I use low-recoil 00 Buck. Now, is it penetrative? Sure. But, given its more limited velocity ratings vs. "standard" 00 Buck or slugs, Id say it provides a nice mix of stopping power + lower penetration, without going to birdshot.

So sure, using an "effective" weapon is desireable, but why not try to maintain maximum stopping power while somewhat limiting overpenetration? Its kinda like comparing the full-house 125 grain JHP .357 Magnum load to the .45 ACP JHP load. Both are about equal in terms of stopping power, but one is certainly more penetrative than the other. In this case, its the .45 ACP for me.

Just something to think about.

killoften
August 27, 2009, 09:38 PM
Guy,
Not to play "what if's" but... Are we so sure he's going to be standing chest to chest with you? What if he's got something in my house to use for cover?
A couch, refridgearator, beating down an internal door like in the safe room, confronting me from a wall corner, his BP vest, behind the kitchen counter, etc,etc, the list could go on. And so, I don't know, these things may or may not ever happen in our entire lives and we're susposed to guess how it's gonna go down? Obvisly it's likly to be a very caotic event with all kinds of hollywood jumps and dives. (Perhaps:rolleyes :) Does your bird shot penatrate these things, and then, "pretty much turn him to sausage?" lol
We HAVE, MUST, assume all the possible worst. Even though it's highly unlikly to ever match your imagination I'm still ready for whatever. And by whatever I mean whatever he choices to use for cover. Keep that in mind when you tell me you prefer shot and over penatration is the enemy.
And for all you bird shot guys... How come your not loading your own shells with sand? Or flour? Same weight more "energy dump" :rolleyes:

inSight-NEO
August 27, 2009, 10:09 PM
Not to play "what if's" but... Are we so sure he's going to be standing chest to chest with you? What if he's got something in my house to use for cover?
A couch, refridgearator, beating down an internal door like in the safe room, confronting me from a wall corner, his BP vest, behind the kitchen counter, etc,etc, the list could go on. And so, I don't know, these things may or may not ever happen in our entire lives and we're susposed to guess how it's gonna go down? Obvisly it's likly to be a very caotic event with all kinds of hollywood jumps and dives. (Perhaps:rolleyes Does your bird shot penatrate these things, and then, "pretty much turn him to sausage?" lol

Ok...first off, Im not a huge fan of birdshot for primary HD use..lets get that right out of the way. Second, out of the 6 or so scenarios you listed, 00 Buck could deal with at least 4 of them (the fourth being the safe room door...let them beat it down; when they enter...well, you get the idea). Besides, you should be behind cover as well....and waiting. But, then again, Im not the "search and destroy" type. Rather, Im more of the "sit, wait and surprise" type. ;)

Either way, it sounds to me like you need to skip the SG alltogether and get either the S&W Model 500 revolver or a high power rifle if conquering any and all barriers is of utmost importance.

For now, however, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. Nothing wrong with that.

LanceOregon
August 28, 2009, 12:07 AM
? What if he's got something in my house to use for cover?

A couch, refridgearator, beating down an internal door like in the safe room, confronting me from a wall corner, his BP vest, behind the kitchen counter, etc,etc, the list could go on.

No, that is not at all true. Your list could not possibly go on, as it itself is ridiculously illogical.

The home invader is going to hide behind your kitchen refrigerator? How on earth is he possibly going to do that??? Do you keep all of your valuables in your refrigerator? That scenario is improbable in the extreme.

And he is going to be wearing a Bullet Proof vest? My goodness, this is getting more outlandish yet. No Buckshot load is going to penetrate a good BP vest, anyway. So what is your point of even mentioning that?


--

ADB
August 28, 2009, 02:12 AM
killoften, don't be ridiculous with your sand and flour.

Yes, slugs would mean you could shoot through furniture, but why stop there? What if the bad guy is wearing a vest? Clearly, we shouldn't use anything shy of a .50 BMG round for home defense. :rolleyes:

However, the fact is that even in the already unlikely scenario of a home defense situation, 99% of us are only ever going to fire on someone who is in the clear and presenting a threat to us.

Old Grump
August 28, 2009, 11:29 AM
Unless he pulls the couch away from the wall or the refrigerator or freezer out from the built in cubby holes they are in He won't be hiding behind them in my house and I have an open floor plan from my kitchen door to the back of the house where my brothers bedroom is. My bedroom is in the middle of the house and the longest reasonable shot I can expect is 24' or 8 yards.

My choice of #4 shot wasn't made on a whim but on big enough to do the job and light enough to not be tearing up my house and endangering anybody in the house I don't want shot. Every situation is different, most houses and furniture placement will be different but not substantially from mine. You may have a 40' shot or at the most a 15' shot, you may be the only person there and your windows are bullet proof and your walls made out of hardened concrete so your neighbors aren't a factor.

There is no one rule covers all situations and I won't flame somebody for using 3 1/2" 10 gauge with 00 buck or a 410 loaded in a Judge if that's what they have. A 22 rifle in the hands of a marksman is a deadly weapon, but to flame somebody because he isn't shooting what you consider optimum or at least adequate shows either lack of maturity or real life experience.

Some of us have been there done that and we don't need a keyboard Kommando parroting the latest hot load or hot bullet from the latest issue of 'Killer Gremlins on the Warpath' magazine.

Ok young ones, continue flaming and ranting this dinosaur is enjoying your testosterone based chest thumping.

RJM
August 28, 2009, 11:44 AM
Why use a shotgun loaded with slugs if you could use a rifle loaded with thirty rounds of 7.62x39 or twenty rounds of .308? If you don't really care about over penetration, why would you handicap youself with a shotgun shooting a single slug and have a smaller capacity? Doesn't make much sense to me.

krazykelley
August 28, 2009, 11:48 AM
9 rounds of #4 2 3/4" buckshot in my Franchi SAS 12. Sometimes the Franchi is complemented by a S&W, Charter Arms, or Tanfoglio in the nightstand or the Vector propped up next to it on the wall.

SgtMeatballs
August 28, 2009, 01:16 PM
Personally i have 1 round of birdshot, loaded up to be rd#1 and then 3 3'' 00 buckshot afterwards. The first round is my way of saying "Hey, did that hurt? good now get out of here!" The next are my exciting party favors.

Escalation of force is necessary in my opinion.

ADB
August 28, 2009, 03:05 PM
SgtMeatballs, if you want a non-lethal first round, I strongly suggest rubber buckshot or a baton round or something. At home defense ranges, birdshot is extremely lethal.

That said, I hope everyone here remembers that once you've discharged a firearm--no matter what's in it--it's considered to be the use of lethal force, so it doesn't matter if you're firing at somebody with no intent to kill. All the usual self defense rules apply.

Mossy500
August 28, 2009, 03:37 PM
legally it may be lethal force no matter what is in the shotgun, but the way i think of it, if i was on a jury listening to someone who did everything they could before killing someone, it would sound alot better to me, and most people than if you just came straight out with buck, or a slug or anything else really. it all relies on the jury

M1911
August 28, 2009, 07:31 PM
legally it may be lethal force no matter what is in the shotgun, but the way i think of it, if i was on a jury listening to someone who did everything they could before killing someone, it would sound alot better to me, and most people than if you just came straight out with buck, or a slug or anything else really.
Actually, no.

Birdshot is lethal force. If you were using what you thought would be a non-lethal round, you are effectively saying that you didn't think that the situation justified deadly force. But, in fact, you were using deadly force. In other words, you were using deadly force when it was not justified.

Certainly from a legal standpoint using non-lethal force first can be an advantage. But you really have to be using non-lethal force -- like command voice, open hand, OC spray. Birdshot simply is not non-lethal force, and telling the jury that you thought it was (even if it didn't kill the perp) is likely to leave you in more hot water, not less.

You can't shoot someone gently. So don't try. If you are not justified in shooting at them, then don't, no matter what ammunition you have in your gun.

Mossy500
August 28, 2009, 08:16 PM
i wasnt talking about birdshot as non lethal force.. i was referring to the rubber stingers,and i know its still classified as lethal force, and definatly not before verbal commands. if i can show i did everything i could before killing the guy, it helps alot

M1911
August 28, 2009, 08:31 PM
i wasnt talking about birdshot as non lethal force.. i was referring to the rubber stingers,and i know its still classified as lethal force, and definatly not before verbal commands. if i can show i did everything i could before killing the guy, it helps alot
Mossy, you are mistaken. That will likely put in more trouble than not.

Lethal force is lethal force. If you are not justified in using lethal force, don't use your gun AT ALL, no matter what ammunition you have loaded in it. Don't say you shot him, but you used rubber rounds because you hoped it wouldn't kill him -- that implies that you felt the situation didn't justify the use of lethal force but you used lethal force (your shotgun) anyways. In most jurisdictions, deadly force is only justified if you (or another innocent) is about to die RIGHT NOW! Using a less-lethal round implies that you thought you weren't going to die RIGHT NOW! After all, if you did think you were going to die RIGHT NOW, you would have used "lethal" rounds.

If you want to start off with non-lethal force, then use something other than your shotgun -- command voice, OC spray, hands-on, etc.

Please take Ayoob's LFI-1. Failing that, read his book "In the Gravest Extreme." He's testified as an expert witness in many self defense cases. He has a very good understanding of what can get you in trouble, even if it doesn't seem to make sense to you. Realize that the law often isn't logical and is often very counter-intuitive. Ayoob strongly recommends against the use of less-lethal rounds for self defense.

ADB
August 28, 2009, 11:11 PM
i wasnt talking about birdshot as non lethal force.. i was referring to the rubber stingers,and i know its still classified as lethal force, and definatly not before verbal commands. if i can show i did everything i could before killing the guy, it helps alot

While I hear what you're saying about showing that you'd given the person the chance to back off, I agree with M1911. If you're in a case where you're not sure whether you're justified in using lethal force, then you simply should not use a gun.

Mossy500
August 29, 2009, 12:12 AM
thank you for your advise, i do see exactly where your coming from and ive contemplated this quite often. i have had my apartment broken into, and even if i think there might be someone there in the middle of the night i make my presence known. im 21 ive done mma most my life and am a 2nd degree black belt, so i dont take my shot gun as a first step by any means.and i have read and agree with alot of what Ayoob says, but i also know the mentality of the the people where i live and i know what my actions may be taken as.. im 20 miles north of seattle, washington, probably one of the biggest hippie populations in the US, and if i can show the granola eating population i tried, it helps. i dont always load the stingers, but if i can make that F***er rot behind bars instead of the easy way out, im all for it.. ;) ..


oh ...and last time my place was broken into, i had a Co2 BB gun and a right hook to the jaw.

hogdogs
August 29, 2009, 02:12 AM
A civilian bringing any firearm to bear is "lethal force" no matter the load in the gun in just about every jurisdiction in the whole wide world...
I poured out the shot from a light target load after cutting off the top. I put a blob of dry toilet paper in and shot at drywall from about 8 feet and made a right fine 2 inch hole.
Brent

inSight-NEO
August 29, 2009, 06:59 PM
There is no one rule covers all situations and I won't flame somebody for using 3 1/2" 10 gauge with 00 buck or a 410 loaded in a Judge if that's what they have. A 22 rifle in the hands of a marksman is a deadly weapon, but to flame somebody because he isn't shooting what you consider optimum or at least adequate shows either lack of maturity or real life experience.

Agreed. Use what you can, regardless of the "preference" of others. Having said this, I have arrived at my choice (Federal LE Low-Recoil 00 Buck) as it allows me to keep within the 00 Buckshot family, while also reducing overpenetration issues associated with "hotter" 00 loads. Like you, I have no apologies for using my preferred round.

Some of us have been there done that and we don't need a keyboard Kommando parroting the latest hot load or hot bullet from the latest issue of 'Killer Gremlins on the Warpath' magazine.

True as well. However, Im wondering just how many of us here have truly been through a violent HD encounter (involving shots fired, resulting in injury and/or death). Im betting not many...

BTW- All of this talk about "lethal force" and/or "non-lethal" ammo...Well, as has been mentioned before, aiming a weapon (much moreso firing one) at another human being had better be justified regardless of what resides in the chamber. Otherwise, one could find themselves sitting behind bars for a while. In essence, scrap the "non-lethal" stuff and load for serious intent. If you arent absolutely sure that your life is in imminent danger, keep the weapon down and finger off the trigger. Shoot to stop...not to wound or scare.

A weapon used for HD purpose is a weapon put on "stand-by"; for use if such an encounter may reasonably result in the harming/death of innocent lives (at the hand of the BG, of course). With this in mind, why would one even bother with non-lethal ammo?

Kmar40
August 29, 2009, 08:22 PM
Some of us have been there done that and we don't need a keyboard Kommando parroting the latest hot load or hot bullet from the latest issue of 'Killer Gremlins on the Warpath' magazine. Been there done that, eh? Retired I guess since you are using that. By been there done that do you mean that you hunted goblins with #4 birdshot/dove shot/turkey shot? I doubt it.

Those of us who are still being there and doing that, and all the really smart and experience guys who are doing the testing, making the policies, and doing the training for those of us who are still being there and doing that disagree with you and your birdshot unanimously.

Bill DeShivs
August 29, 2009, 09:14 PM
Why can't people understand that LE may have to use their shotguns at distance? Buckshot retains it's energy better at distance than smaller shot, and that is (or should be) the main reason for LE's use of it. At under 15 feet, smaller shot will work well.

bartenderfloyd
August 29, 2009, 09:31 PM
My 500 is full of Winchester Lowrecoil 00 Buck. As far as putting in a less lethal round as my first shot, if someone breaks into my house when my family is home they will get the full force. I'll worry about the law later.

Kmar40
August 30, 2009, 12:52 PM
Why can't people understand that LE may have to use their shotguns at distance? . At under 15 feet, smaller shot will work well. Because it's false. Check the various ballistic testing sites or even teh box of truth. All are tested at around 10 yards and birdshot fails (although BB and #2 or pretty close to acceptable penetration).

Bill DeShivs
August 30, 2009, 01:05 PM
I happen to know differently, from personal experience.

zxcvbob
August 30, 2009, 01:42 PM
Lethal force is lethal force. If you are not justified in using lethal force, don't use your gun AT ALL, no matter what ammunition you have loaded in it. Don't say you shot him, but you used rubber rounds because you hoped it wouldn't kill him -- that implies that you felt the situation didn't justify the use of lethal force but you used lethal force (your shotgun) anyways. In most jurisdictions, deadly force is only justified if you (or another innocent) is about to die RIGHT NOW! Using a less-lethal round implies that you thought you weren't going to die RIGHT NOW! After all, if you did think you were going to die RIGHT NOW, you would have used "lethal" rounds.

If you want to start off with non-lethal force, then use something other than your shotgun -- command voice, OC spray, hands-on, etc.
The reply to that is "Of course it was lethal force, but the goal was to stop the threat, not necessarily to kill him."

But that's not really what I came here to say. I just wanted to know if anybody uses high-brass turkey loads?

Old Grump
August 30, 2009, 03:22 PM
Been there done that, eh? Retired I guess since you are using that. By been there done that do you mean that you hunted goblins with #4 birdshot/dove shot/turkey shot? I doubt it.

Those of us who are still being there and doing that, and all the really smart and experience guys who are doing the testing, making the policies, and doing the training for those of us who are still being there and doing that disagree with you and your birdshot unanimously.

Did 2 Nam tours courtesy of a Democratic administration, Later coached an Army Reserve pistol team and taught marksmanship to police and the sheriff's department.

I lived on the wrong side of the tracks a few times, jnot much choice at the time. I Have had my apartment busted into 3 times, first time I wasn't home and I didn't have a gun, second time had a 22 revolver, last time was armed with a 38 super and San Diego police thought it was a fine gun. That was in 1970 I think maybe 71, its been awhile.

Drunks tried to break in through my patio door in Bolingbrook Illinois, never underestimate the power of a barking 9 month old pup and a 45 in the hands of a perturbed wife to sober a couple of guys up.

I did have a goblin target recently discarded with a hole just big enough to stick my thumb through that was fired at with #4 shot from 24' and there was a little tear on the lower right corner from the shot wad bouncing off the paper but I can't honestly say I ever shot a goblin. #4 is my choice for turkey load in both my 20 and my 12 gauge guns and for my go to HD gun, that is my choice right or wrong, it is my choice.

I have fired 00 and 000 buck but only at targets, paper and water filled pop bottles. I shoot a lot of slugs just practicing, .410, 20 and 12 and I have taken a deer at around 70 yards with the slug, it was impressive.

I have made clean holes in 2x4's with #6 shot at 10' to show the students in a gun introductory course I was teaching for the women from a local church at our gun club. As part of my demonstration I shot a 5 gallon bucket at 200 yards with my S&W M41 22 cal pistol to show they really should have more respect for the lowly 22.

Took my black bear with a 32 Win spcl and it would be my choice for the go outside gun because it is light, handy, accurate and I am very familiar with it. I used to use my 357 Dan Wesson for deer hunting for nearly 30 years but eyes got a little old for that kind of hunting. Do my deer hunting now with a 44 mag revolver from a stand, a single shot, (scoped), 308, a 50 cal inline muzzle loader and a crossbow, (scoped), depending on the season and where I am hunting. Gamo air rifle for small game has replaced my 22 pistol, same range but it has a scope and my old eyeballs really are beginning to appreciate optics.

I have a blow gun too but don't use it for hunting, I know my limitations and I'm not sure it would be legal.

Mess with my family or my house and find out what an Old Grump can do with #4 shot. There are a lot of us who have walked through the woods and I don't mean tree's in a state park and we got old because we learned what to do and how to do it when it needed doing.

Not exactly a Goblin target and not a shotgun target but this was shooting 5 rounds of ball ammo, right handed only, at 25 yards standing on my hindlegs. Will it do? And if I choose to use a shotgun and #4 shot instead of my 45 inside my house do you think I might have a reason for doing so?

http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu147/oldgrump/ColtMKIVat25Yards001.gif

SgtMeatballs
August 31, 2009, 12:34 PM
Sorry it took so long to reply, I was in the field....God i love Artillery....anyways...

I fully understand that birdshot is lethal at close range, but at the same time, compared to buckshot, I have a much greater chance of NOT killing somebody, especially if my first shot is towards the extremities...

Furthermore, i understand the next counter-arguement is about how nervous people get in a self-defense situation, and how my shot placement will be severly diminished, where aiming at somebodies legs is ridiculous and dangerous...Well, i have been in these situations, and strongly feel that this is not true, for me.

LanceOregon
August 31, 2009, 04:00 PM
http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu147/oldgrump/ColtMKIVat25Yards001.gif


This target was banned at our local range, not long after 9/11, despite the fact that so many folks wanted to use it.

Range officials told us that they had a strict ban on using targets of real human beings.

--

M1911
August 31, 2009, 06:44 PM
Range officials told us that they had a strict ban on using targets of real human beings.
As the Vice President of a gun club, my response considered response is that they are *******. :rolleyes:

Old Grump
August 31, 2009, 07:27 PM
I don't trot that one out to often because it does offend some people but I have similar targets shot at the same range with 38, 357, 44, 44 mag, 41 mag and 3 different 45's, this naturally was the best one. Still if I ever have to get up in the wee hours I prefer the smoothbore to the little handcannon. At 8 yards there was a single large hole at the bridge of his nose, at 25 yards the group was spread fairly evenly around the target and centered in the middle. My house isn't 25 yards long and the longest possible shot is 24', sometimes good enough is good enough.

Fortunately Kmar40 is unanimous so I can rest easy tonight knowing I am wrong and anybody who disagrees with him is wrong. It is good to have a shining light shining the bright beam of the truth, the whole truth and the only truth upon us ignorant people. I bow to his superiority and expertise.

inSight-NEO
August 31, 2009, 08:02 PM
Why can't people understand that LE may have to use their shotguns at distance?

I understand this...and agree with it. I just do not necessarily agree with using slug for HD, but thats just me.

However, I have read far too many accounts where LEOs, for one reason or another, have used 00 Buck well beyond 25 yards....to no avail, of course. Maybe its a departmental thing, I dunno...Im not LE.

Basically, I tend to see it this way (relating to HD/PD): buckshot (or if so inclined, birdshot) = inside; slugs = outside.

For HD, I still prefer Low-Recoil 00 Buck to all else. To me, as I have mentioned before, it somewhat bridges the gap between using either full 00 Buck or Birdshot. Each to his/her own.

Stay safe out there and use what you have. After all, if it comes down to it one day, that may be the only thing standing between you, your family and serious injury/death.

.45 COLT
August 31, 2009, 09:35 PM
Those of us who are still being there and doing that, and all the really smart and experience guys who are doing the testing, making the policies, and doing the training for those of us who are still being there and doing that disagree with you and your birdshot unanimously.
Are those really smart and experienced guys the same ones who decided that the 9MM is superior to the .45ACP?

DC

Kmar40
September 1, 2009, 01:05 AM
First, grumpy Old Grump, thanks for you service. I mean that sincerely and the rest of this stuff is merely internet nonsense. The truth is that most of us will never need our home weapons and those of us who still grab pistols, shotguns and carbines as a tool of the trade usually have the decisions made for us. (Though it sounds like you live in a rough neighborhood and may have a greater risk.)

With all due respect, I've majority of combat vets have absolutely no experience that would qualify as anything resembling terminal ballistics expertise. Nor do small town PD instructors or the guys that teach BRM to weekend warriors. I've done the last two, BTW. The rest of my resume frankly isn't for public consumption.

My answer to you is simple. Cite an legitimate instructor who agrees with you that birdshot is an effective home defense round and provide a link. It's as simple as that. Ayoob? Fackler? Col. Goblinhunter? The Box o Truth Guy? FBI? Border Patrol? Secret Service? Walmart Security? Bart the Mall Cop?

Does anyone with a professional reputation say that 4" of penetration is effective for self defense even at short range? Do you use frangible ammo in those 45 ACP pistols to ensure they only penetrate 4-5 inches? Something other than the old wives tale that "I hear tale that it's good enough"? Anything? Ballistic gelatin testing that says the super #4 "turkey" shot penetrates deeper than the rest of the mere mortal #4 bird shot? (The last one does give me slight pause because I know that some of the new shots may be both heavier and harder than lead. If there's testing out there, I'm all ears.)

I'm only asking you to open your mind a bit and consider what you think you know. I was once just like you and believed what my father told him (that his father probably told him), "Just stuff birdshot in it and it's good enough for close range!" Take some time, look at the ballistic gelatin tests or go shoot a pig or maybe a thawed butterball or something. See how deeply that #4 shot penetrates FLESH or some reasonable substitute.

The fact that all the tactical schools and instructors are unanimously in opposition to your advice should give you some pause.

Are those really smart and experienced guys the same ones who decided that the 9MM is superior to the .45ACP?Interesting point. I assume you are a big bore, heavy bullet deep penetration guy who thinks that the 9mm is too small and doesn't penetrate enough, right? Yet you-- I think-- are suggesting that birdshot which penetrates about half as much as a 22 short is adequate?

I'll be waiting quietly. We've rehashed this so often I doubt I will respond as it's all been said over and over in the nearly daily threads.

But again, thanks for serving Old Grump.

FamilyDog
September 1, 2009, 02:31 AM
This is a great read..All the opinions have my respect.

This is why i use Benneke Tactical HD slugs

flat trajectory
good accuracy
allows quick, accurate follow up shots if needed
good knock down power
controlled penetration / low risk of dangerous exiting
designed for urban use
proven for law enforcement
most comfotable for recoil sensitive shooters
Shotty carrying LEO's in my area love these.

I don't believe in the "one shot" BS. Doesn't happen in the real world. When the SHTF, your heart is pumping 180 over 180, and you ****** yourself..."one and done" is just plain lucky. What needs to be taken into consideration, more than anything else, is follow up shots.
Most important thing? Get a stop or knock down. Then check for continued threat. Follow up if needed. Don't matter what your throwing at the BG, Shot or slug..it's all the same.... STOP threat. I think everyone is right. Shoot what you have confidence in.

Collateral damage should be taken into account in your SHFT plan. I personally will not go looking for the BG in a home invasion situation. I will set the BG up in a death zone. In my home, there is only one way to get to me and my family. This zone provides cover for me, protection for my family, and no where to hide for the BG's. They can have everything in the house, but once they cross into the zone. It's on and over and collateral damage is at its utmost minimum.
Back on the slug/shot shpeel...I just have more confidence in these slugs over any shot out there.

Lee Lapin
September 1, 2009, 05:43 AM
I have a much greater chance of NOT killing somebody, especially if my first shot is towards the extremities...

Problem is, you also have a greater chance of not STOPPING somebody. And there's no guarantee you'll have a chance to get off subsequent shots in a defensive situation.

Please read the report at http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/173_11_041200/herdson/herdson.html ... that's the Medical Journal of Australia, if you're worried about following unknown links. The article is "Shotgun suicide with a difference" by Peter B. Herdson, if you want to look it up on your own.

lpl

.45 COLT
September 1, 2009, 06:39 AM
Are those really smart and experienced guys the same ones who decided that the 9MM is superior to the .45ACP?

Interesting point. I assume you are a big bore, heavy bullet deep penetration guy who thinks that the 9mm is too small and doesn't penetrate enough, right? Yet you-- I think-- are suggesting that birdshot which penetrates about half as much as a 22 short is adequate?

No, no big proponent of Birdshot. Right now I have one gun loaded with Dixie Tri-Ball loads, a couple of others with 00 Buckshot. I just don't like those "Smart and Experienced Guys". They're also the ones who tried to replace my M14 with an M16.

The rest of my resume frankly isn't for public consumption.

Nor is mine, but I definitely wouldn't cite Fackler as an expert. Nice guy, wrongheaded. (No, no big fan of Evan Marshall either).

DC

Old Grump
September 1, 2009, 10:40 AM
I am the original bigger is better guy when it comes to guns. Carried a 03 Springfield in boot, learned to really shoot with a 45 and a M1, seen the problems with the M14 corrected then replaced by a, never mind, you can guess what I think of McNamara. I seen the problems with the M16 and I still believe a varmint round should be used for varmints.

With the bigger is better thing I prefer my 32 Win spcl over my 30-30 just because of the power factor. I retired my 357 in as my primary hunting gun for a 44 mag because of the power factor. I have a 300 Wby but use a 308 because it makes the same size hole, shoots the same 180 gr bullet and no shot in my area will be more than 200 yards and most around the 60 yard mark give or take 20 yards. 308 is big enough and so is the 30-30 and dead deer is dead deer. 'But' and this is a big 'but' those shots are taken outdoors with thousands of acres of trees or miles of desert and mountains on the other side of the animal depending on if I am in Wisconsin or New Mexico.

My choice for my HD load is not because I think the #4 shot is the ultimate choice but I know my house, I know who lives in my house and where they are, I know if I ever have to take on an intruder it will most likely be at 10' or less and never more than 24'. I have a legally blind sister and a crippled brother and they do not need to be collateral damage and will not be if I can do anything about it. #4 shot is my answer, 2 3/4" shells express load of Hevi shot, can't match a slug but its going to have to do.

killoften
September 2, 2009, 12:31 AM
Finally! I believe I can post again. It seems Grump calmed down enough... And for the record I didnt nessarily apreciate being alluded to, a "keyboard commando" You seem to have said some questionable personal things in regards to a few poeple on this post. Kmar40 got it especially bad. If it bothers you so much just don't click on this topic.

"can't match a slug but its going to have to do."--Old Grump

Yes! Now we're getting somewhere. It is toataly cool given YOUR situation to make that HD ammo choice. All I EVER was trying to get across is that "pound for pound" slugs are a more sure threat stopper. Can we agree on that? All i wanted to argu was balistics! How did it turn into this?
My situation is differnt, and so I use slugs. For all any of you know, I could live on a 1000 Acre ranch all alone with no family but myself, and nobody to concern myself with "collatorial damage" except the tree's. Not the case, but my point still stands. We could 'what if' this to death, (and for the record I think this whole tread has been a good read) but as stated in my first couple posts. Over penatration is a problem with ALL firearms and once you understand that; it takes away from the nay-saying about slugs. THAT'S ALL I EVER WANTED TO SAY:D If a person was TRUELY worried about over penatration they'd shoot flour like I made a crack about earlier. Didnt mean to offend, it was in realality, a balistic point. The smaller the partical the shallower, right?! Maybe a person lives in a glass house. Who knows! I just want to have the best chance of ending violence quick and boy o' boy what would do it better than a single well placed HV slug. Or perhaps the Tactical one's mentiond by FamilyDog which sound interesting and i'll now be looking into. Thanks FD.

RJM
September 2, 2009, 07:16 AM
So, why not use a high capacity rifle instead of a low capacity slug shotgun, killoften? Slugs seem to defeat the point of a shotgun, at least for me, which is multiple projectiles shot into a spread pattern.

billyj571
September 2, 2009, 09:06 AM
2 3/4" 00 buck

killoften
September 2, 2009, 01:21 PM
RJM: Somebody already asked that and I already answered to their/your question. Try checkin it out,(Post #48) I feel it's a good answer.
Then come back and let us all know how you feel, agree/disagree. Seriously I feel I, and a few others supported the slug debate quite well. But you'd never know that since you don't read the all the pages before posting.

M1911
September 2, 2009, 07:36 PM
Then come back and let us all know how you feel, agree/disagree. Seriously I feel I, and a few others supported the slug debate quite well.
And a lot of us just gave up arguing.

Slugs are for extending the range of a shotgun. If your living room is longer than 25 yards, then yes, they make sense.

RJM
September 2, 2009, 08:23 PM
Actually, killoften, you really didn't answer my question with your previous post. I am not asking about shot vs. slug but rather rifle vs. slug gun. I just cannot see the logic behind using a single projectile out of a lower capacity and higher recoiling shotgun vs. a higher capacity lower recoiling rifle/carbine given that you don't care about overpenetration.

I don't really need an answer from you though, I find everyone of your 9 posts to be condescending and boring and would really rather not read another one.

mp25ds4
September 2, 2009, 08:35 PM
Ive heard from more than one law enforcement officer that if you're going to shoot someone you better kill them, Because if you dont then they will sue you for everything you got. Im not sure if this is true or not but if it is, id go for some type of buckshot.

scrub12b
September 2, 2009, 08:43 PM
00 2 3/4 buckshot

killoften
September 2, 2009, 10:40 PM
My posts are boring? Condescending maybe, and I can work on that now that I know you feel that way. But boring? Uhh...? My bad...Didn't know that was the name of the game. I go from being called a keyboard commando :eek: to---boring? :(

Again, thanks for the personal attacks.
And for the rifle vs slug gun thing... Fair enough.
I could see somebody using an AR. I'd use that before I'd use shot. As my buddy always says, "my pistol is to get me to my shotgun, my shotgun is to get me to my AR-15." He's got a long hallway. :D

The reason I opt not to is because I feel 6+1 should be enough to end the threat. God strike me down if I'm wrong but I'm playin the odds that it won't be an extended firefight or more than a handful of badguys. But then again, aint no shame in a AR with a 30 round mag. I've cleared more houses than I care to count with nothing but. I just feel a slug, (being larger and heavier than several conventional rounds put together) is more lethal round for round.

killoften
September 2, 2009, 10:56 PM
"Slugs are for extending the range of a shotgun."
No, they, are, not! Just because slugs DO go further than shot, doesn't mean they are FOR extending range. Where is that written? Chokes are for extending range for shotguns. Shot and Slugs are completly differnt animals. One's a bullet, and one's a scattering bunch of pellets. I understand the confusion being that the same gun fires both, but people don't shoot slugs at clays or birds just to "reach out further" Of course you would use a slug against a buck or something at further range than shot becuase of shot's 'short-commings' (no pun intended) but that is not the end all be all. I'm not "dis-allowed" to use slugs at closer range am I? They're more lethal closer AND further than shot is.

Old Grump
September 2, 2009, 11:38 PM
what do you all use in yours? I am leaning toward 2 3/4 00 buck. but as will all things I like to know what the masses are into

That was the question and we answered and then the fun started. There are some here who have 'the' answer and it is the 'only' answer and no other answer should be tolerated. Some of us think there are a lot of options and we choose according to our situation. That is as it should be.

killoften
September 3, 2009, 01:30 AM
+1.

Renfield
September 19, 2010, 09:10 AM
2 3/4 inch #4 buckshot

Webleymkv
September 19, 2010, 10:04 AM
Depends on the gauge,

20ga- Remington 2 3/4" unplated #3 buckshot
12ga- Remington 3" unplated #4 Buckshot
10ga- Remington 3 1/2" steel BB shot

My reasoning is that the whole point of a shotgun for HD is to have a firearm that will equal the effectiveness of a rifle, but be less penetrative. By using a coarse birdshot (#2 or coarser) or a fine buckshot (#1 or finer) I feel that you can maximize your pellet count, reduce the risk of overpenetration, and still retain adequate penetration. If I really feel the need for more penetration that what these types of loadings can give me, I'd simply reach for a rifle.

hardworker
September 19, 2010, 10:16 AM
I keep a 20 gauge loaded with high brass 6's.

MosinM38
September 19, 2010, 12:09 PM
2 3/4" on all loads, either #4 or 00 buck. Either works fine for me under 25 yards. Actually I got two shotguns. One loaded with buck, one with slugs :D

exphys2010
September 19, 2010, 12:59 PM
I live in a well populated apartment complex, so I cannot go too large for fear that I may have too much wall penetration. I load my Mossberg (pistol grip and 18.5 inch barrel) with #4 buckshot. It has a greater number of pellets, and I have read several reports stating that it has a pretty decent amount of penetration in ballistics gel and other tests. However, if i lived in a house with no neighbors close by, I would definitely go with something larger, such as 0 or 00 buck.

mwar410
September 19, 2010, 02:56 PM
double barrel 12 ga. with 2 3/4 #4 buckshot, 26" barrels so I can easily move down my hallways, and it hits where I'm looking!!!

therealdeal
September 20, 2010, 06:11 AM
to the guy who said this is threaded too much: that was one of the most enjoyable threads to read in a long time. I hear you, but how can you not enjoy laughing out loud while scrolling thru the posts? lol. I think its good everyone seemed to have the right idea of what the ammo in the shotgun was for. to answer the thread, @ this time I have the federal&winchester 00 buck(both 3" + 15pellets) for my mossberg500(7 in tube+1 in the chamber) but my main HD are my two loaded revolvers(11shots from the CCW and bigger six-gun to get the shotgun which is in the bedroom but not as readily available as the .357's(available- just not as quickly 'in hand')

we got to get another one of these threads sometime

ps- after I throw the gun when rounds exhausted I am doublefistin w/my oldtimer knife and ruko buck 110 lookalike

therealdeal
September 20, 2010, 06:55 AM
mwar410- awesome point too. like grump said I am definately staying in wait on the other side of zone w/family but 8shots of) in a row is hard to argue with