Josey Wales 1847 Walkers

[1972]

I had a question for you "movie revolver" experts.

In the movie “The Outlaw Josey Wales” I think it’s pretty well established that Josey was packing a pair of 1847 Colt Army Model Walkers (among other guns). I’ve also heard them described as “Whittneyville” Walkers.

What, exactly, is a “Whittneyville Walker”? I can’t find any reference to that anywhere that I've looked.

Also, were the Walkers Josey was supposed to be carrying the earlier type with the larger cylinder and no loading lever latch – or the later (3rd Model Dragoon Walker) that had the slightly shorter cylinder and the new latch for the loading lever?

And what was officially the “Dragoon” model? I’ve read that Josey carried the “Dragoon”, and yet I’m not sure if the Dragoon was a term applied to the earlier models, or the later 3rd Models, or perhaps the term applied to all the Walkers regardless of the model.

Anybody shed any light on this?

Also, does anybody know if any manufacturer is making a reproduction of the 3rd Model Walker with the shorter cylinder and loading lever latch? Just about everybody offers the original Walker (Uberti, Cimaron, Pietta), but so far I've not seen the 3rd model for sale anywhere.

Just curious, but sure would appreciate any information you might have?

[Hawg Haggen]

A Whitneyville Walker is a first model Walker made by Eli Whitney Jr. at Whitneyville Ct. which is what Josie carried without the latch.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y269/rebel727/my%20junk/josie-wales-eastwood-560.jpg

A Dragoon is the Walkers successor.

[mykeal]

A Whitneyville (one 't') is a transition model between the Walker (9" barrel and a cylinder with 60 grain chambers) and what Colt's Manufacturing Co. called 'horse pistols', what collectors now call the Dragoons (7 1/2" barrel and 50 grain chambered cylinder). It has the shorter barrel, improved loading lever latch and smaller cylinder of the Dragoons. It was manufactured by Eli Whitney (hence the name) for Colt and used some Walker parts. The easiest way to discern a Whitneyville Dragoon is that is has a steel backstrap, while the other 3 Dragoon models all had brass backstraps.

There are essentially 4 different models of the pistol we now call the Colt Dragoon: Whitneyville, 1st Model, 2nd Model and 3rd Model. However, Colt didn't manufacture them with different models in mind, and there were transitions between the models we now identify which contained characteristics of both models on either side.

As stated above the Whitneyville had a steel backstrap and retained the small oval cylinder notches and square back trigger guard of the Walker. The 1st Model Dragoon has the same trigger guard and cylinder notches but a brass backstrap. The 2nd Model changed the cylinder notches to a rectangular shape but kept the square back trigger guard. The 3rd Model introduces the round or oval backed trigger guard and keeps the rectangular notches.

Uberti still makes both the Walker and all 4 of the various Dragoon models.

[Hawg Haggen]

I knew mykeal would know all the ins and outs of it.:cool: Madcratebuilder and Fingers McGee will probably chime in too.

[1972]

Thank you gentlemen. The picture leaves very little doubt about which model he (Josey) was carrying! Plain as day.

Okay, then that brings up another question I had. I’ve been looking at various manufacturers of the 1847 Colt Walker reproduction. Obviously Uberti and Pietta both offer one, but in reading through some of the forums on the net I see that Cimarron also offers one.

I’m not asking anybody to “bad mouth” any of the manufacturers in any way, but I would appreciate some information on “Cimarron”. Are their firearms made in the USA or are they imported as well and simply sold here under the Cimarron name? What is the quality of the Cimarron products – particularly as compared to Uberti and Pietta. As good? Better? Perhaps not as good?

Let me phrase the question this way. If money was not the issue and you were going to buy a reproduction Colt 1847 Walker – who would you buy it from? Cimarron? Uberti? Pietta?

[Hawg Haggen]

Cimarron's are Uberti's but are a notch above the run of the Mill Uberti. If money is no object that's the way to go. Actions are smoother and finish is better. Markings are in period style and Uberti's name isn't plastered across it in big block letter. Pietta's are cheaper but quality is right up there with Uberti.

[Fingers McGee]

Ding !!!!!

[Fingers McGee]

The first 1000 Colt Walker pistols were manufactured by Eli Whitney in Whitneyville, Ct. After the first thousand, Colt maufactured all subsequent models in Hartford. The military Walkers were Sns 1-220 for Cos A thru D - these were all Whitneyville Walkers. The E Co models and SNs 1001 through 1100 were Civilian model Walkers. SNs 1101 through 1340 were Transition model Walkers - aka Whitneyville-Hartford Dragoons that had the Walker grips/BS/TG but they had the shorter cylinder and barrel of the subsequent Dragoons.

FM

[AdmiralB]

Cimarron's are Uberti's but are a notch above the run of the Mill Uberti. If money is no object that's the way to go. Actions are smoother and finish is better. Markings are in period style and Uberti's name isn't plastered across it in big block letter. Pietta's are cheaper but quality is right up there with Uberti.

Money doesn't really enter into it, you can buy Cimarrons from Buffalo for the same as or less than 'plain Ubertis' from everyone else.

I've never noticed smoother actions or better finish on Cimarrons, but I have (anecdotally) observed a reduced return rate.

Markings are no different from regular Ubertis, except for the "ADDRESS CIMARRON FREDERICKSBURG TEXAS" rollmarked on the barrel top, a la original Colts.

Pietta doesn't make Walkers or Dragoons, so how they figure into this, I dunno.

[ClemBert]

Markings are no different from regular Ubertis, except for the "ADDRESS CIMARRON FREDERICKSBURG TEXAS" rollmarked on the barrel top, a la original Colts.

I have a Cimarron imported Uberti 1858. There is no Cimarron marking on it but it is a Remington design not a Colt design. The Uberti writing is all under the barrel. Incidentally, the quality of this Uberti is exceptional and easily surpasses the quality (aesthetics/fit/finish) of three new Piettas I recently examined.

[mykeal]

Cimarron does import and sell Ubertis through their Texas Jack's outlet in Fredriicksburg, TX. Those guns may not have the Cimarron roll mark even though Cimarron is the importer/retailer.

AdmiralB is correct; Pietta does not make Walkers or Dragoons.

[1972]

So what's the bottom line? If you want a couple 1847 "Walkers" and can't afford a pair of "originals" (which few of us could), who makes THE absolute best reproductions that you can get your hands on?

[mykeal]

The 'best' replicas are the 2nd Generation F Series Colts made by Colt's Manufacturing Co. Inc. They ceased making them in the mid-90's but you can still find them in NIB condition on the auction sites for about $1000. A very close second is the Third Generation Signature Series made by Colt Blackpowder Arms up until 2002; they bring $700 NIB at auction.

The only, and therefore the best, in current production are made by Uberti and sold by several outlets. They bring about $350 to $400.

[Fingers McGee]

The 'best' replicas are the 2nd Generation F Series Colts made by Colt's Manufacturing Co. Inc. They ceased making them in the mid-90's but you can still find them in NIB condition on the auction sites for about $1000. A very close second is the Third Generation Signature Series made by Colt Blackpowder Arms up until 2002; they bring $700 NIB at auction.

The only, and therefore the best, in current production are made by Uberti and sold by several outlets. They bring about $350 to $400.

Agree with one slight correction. The F series Colts were made from 1978 through 1982. The F series Walkers were made from 1980 through 1982

[madcratebuilder]

So what's the bottom line? If you want a couple 1847 "Walkers" and can't afford a pair of "originals" (which few of us could), who makes THE absolute best reproductions that you can get your hands on?

I would watch gunbroker for a 2nd or 3rd gen that was been fired. They come along now and then, I got my 2nd gen for $400. First owner said he fired it, I could not tell it had been. The 3rd gen well have a very high gloss blue finish and the sam colt sig line on the back strap. You'll see the Whitneyville Dragoons on gunbroker occasionally.

[1972]

Thanks for the help and advice. I'll certainly keep my eyes open, but the odds of my finding a 2nd or 3rd generation are pretty low. I'm from Canada, and while there is no problem buying or owning handguns here, it is very difficult to import them privately. We obviously have dealers who have import licences, but they deal mostly with wholesale outlets in the US and bring in only new firearms. There likely were a few of the 2nd and 3rd generations brought into Canada at one point in time, but there will be far fewer of them up here than down there. So finding one will be quite a challenge - and the price (if you can find one) will reflect it. I guess my best chance would be to find someone with an import licence here who deals in specialty items like that. They "might" be able to bring one in for me - if I can find one.

[salvadore]

I urchased a walker in 1968, does anyone know who manufactured them?

[Fingers McGee]

One from 1968 is probably an Armi San Marco. Here's a link you can use to decipher the markings on it.

https://store.bluebookinc.com/Info/PDF/POWDER/MBPProofmarks.pdf

FM

[AdmiralB]

I have a Cimarron imported Uberti 1858. There is no Cimarron marking on it but it is a Remington design not a Colt design.


My Cimarron 1858 does have the Cimarron address marking on the barrel top. Yours is a fancy finish though, right? Maybe they leave it off of those?

[Hawg Haggen]

I dunno about the 58's or Walkers but I have a 73 Colt in 44-40 from Cimarron and the finish is much better than the plain Uberti I had. Action is much smoother also. Not that the Uberti was bad just the one from Cimarron was better. On mine the only place that has Uberti's name on it is under the ejector rod housing. You have to remove the housing to see it. Now it is an older gun and the barrel is marked Houston so maybe things have changed since then.

[Wobble]

So what's the bottom line? If you want a couple 1847 "Walkers" and can't afford a pair of "originals" (which few of us could), who makes THE absolute best reproductions that you can get your hands on?

I have the Uberti Walker and can recommend it, although I cannot compare it to others. Fit, finish, and quality are excellent.

Also, two Walkers were produced as part of the Colt Blackpowder Signature Series, often called 3rd Generation blackpowder Colts. One was produced in 1994 and the other in 1997 as an anniversary model. Although these are generally consided Colts, they were actually manufactured and assembled by the Colt Blackpowder Arms Company using mostly Italian parts, under an arrangement with the Colt company. The boxes have the actual Colt logo. I have a couple (not Walkers) and the quality is a notch above common Ubertis. These guns are not difficult to find NIB on the Internet at sites such as GunsAmerica. Expect to pay in the $600-$900 range.

There were also two Walkers produced as 2nd Generation Colts in the early 1980's. One was a "Heritage" model. These are harder to find in good condition, and more expensive.

By the way, an original Colt Walker sold at Julia Auctions in October 2008 for $920,000, the most expensive firearm ever sold at auction.

[ClemBert]

My Cimarron 1858 does have the Cimarron address marking on the barrel top. Yours is a fancy finish though, right? Maybe they leave it off of those?

Yup Admiral...fancy finish. Could be the reason.

[w.t. anderson]

I agree to the favorable comments about Colt 2nd Generation blackpowder guns especially the Walker and Dragoons - I have two C-series 3rd Models Dragoons and two C-series 1851 Navies.
A quick question to those more knowledgable - is it true that the cylinders and barrel wedges of the original Walker and early Dragoons were NOT blued but rather left "in the white"? I have a spare 2nd Gen 3rd Model Dragoon cylinder and wedge that I'm thinking of stripping and installing if such was the case. Please comment.
Best Wishes,
"Bloody Bill"

[Fingers McGee]

is it true that the cylinders and barrel wedges of the original Walker and early Dragoons were NOT blued but rather left "in the white"?

Not 100% sure about the wedge; but the cylinders were in the white.

FM

BTW, Thanks for the PM

[Deadguy]

The original Walkers that I have seen, in pictures and at the Smithsonian, had white cylinders and barrels that were either fire or charcoal blued, as they were a blue color, not black like the Italian guns.