PDA

View Full Version : BAR magazine capacity


FyredUp
August 9, 2009, 02:51 PM
Was the US military vesion of the BAR offered with any magazine with a higher capacity than 20 rounds? One of the guys I work with swears late in the war they were supplied with 30 round magazines. I have never seen nor read of this. A high stakes bet of a soda rises on this. A link to back up your answer would be nice.

Thanks.

iamkris
August 9, 2009, 03:04 PM
This site is usually pretty reliable in its descriptions. It doens't specifically say that there WEREN'T 30 rounders (then again, it doesn't say there weren't 100 round magazines either) but it certainly makes no mention of them.

Since BARs are so associated with 20 round magazines, one would think that a 30 round one would be mentioned in a article on the gun.

Plus, 30 rounds of .30-06 would be darn heavy...in a rifle that was already 17-18 lbs.

http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg36-e.htm

I like your quote...

There are 2 kinds of people, those prepared, and those that suffer. Which are you?

I always thought it went..."There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count, and those who can't."

emcon5
August 9, 2009, 03:43 PM
"Late in the war", which war? If he means WW2, it is unlikely, as photos of the BAR in use in Korea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:M1918A2_BAR_Korea.JPEG) and Vietnam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BARVietnam.jpg) both show 20 round magazines in use.

A Google search for BAR 30 round magazine comes up empty.

That being said, it is pretty hard to prove a negative. He should be the one looking for citations/examples of a BAR with a 30 round magazine.

Mike Irwin
August 9, 2009, 04:06 PM
As far as I know, no, they were never issued.

Apparently they were tried, but there were issues with reliable feeding, so the project was abandoned.

Hkmp5sd
August 9, 2009, 04:22 PM
...
The gun's magazine also caused a number of problems. Its limited 20-round magazine capacity was too small to make use of the BAR's rate of fire and the magazine itself was not very sturdy and could be damaged easily. Improved magazines with larger capacities were requested but not adopted.

- Bruce N. Canfield's U.S. Infantry Weapons of World War II

44 AMP
August 10, 2009, 09:45 PM
Just as today, they make 30 round mags for the M14/M1A. But no 30rnd BAR mags were ever an issue item, in WWII, or later, as far as I know. Besides feeding trouble, they would keep the rifle even higher off the ground when used prone.

csmsss
August 10, 2009, 10:47 PM
I would imagine that, among other potential issues, a 30 round magazine for .30-06 cartridges would have a *very* stiff spring and would be a beast to load.

sneaky pete
August 11, 2009, 06:25 AM
old Sneaky here: I carried 1 in the Marines in the late 50s--20 rounds. They were used in the 4 man fire teams and were not ment to replace the .30 Browning firing long strings of supressive or grazing fire but instead 2>3 roud bursts at specific point targets. BUT thats what the Gunny said so we always practiced 2>3 round bursts which wasn't difficult once you got the hang of it and it was effective. THANX--SNEAKY:)

cat9x
August 11, 2009, 09:12 AM
James L Ballou's "Rock in a Hard Place - The Browning Automatic Rifle" (a must have for BAR fans) showcases the experimental 40 round anti aircraft BAR magazine. Other than that I only know of the standard 20 rounders.

Mike Irwin
August 11, 2009, 09:25 AM
Someone once told me that one experiment to get the high cap magazines to feed reliably was to essentially make two side by side magazines, with a center divider, each with its own follower and spring, that fed into a single set of feed lips at the top.

Sounds complex as hell and easy to get out of whack.

csmsss
August 11, 2009, 09:39 AM
James L Ballou's "Rock in a Hard Place - The Browning Automatic Rifle" (a must have for BAR fans) showcases the experimental 40 round anti aircraft BAR magazine. Other than that I only know of the standard 20 rounders.I'm having enormous difficulty imagining an automatic weapon less suitable for anti-aircraft duty than the BAR !!!

cat9x
August 11, 2009, 10:10 AM
I'm having enormous difficulty imagining an automatic weapon less suitable for anti-aircraft duty than the BAR !!!

The pictures in the book actually show two BAR's in an anti-aircraft side-by-side mount both with 40 round magazines. Cool picture, I'm guessing not an entirely horrible idea for a WWI anti aircraft firearm.

csmsss
August 11, 2009, 10:49 PM
The pictures in the book actually show two BAR's in an anti-aircraft side-by-side mount both with 40 round magazines. Cool picture, I'm guessing not an entirely horrible idea for a WWI anti aircraft firearm.Cool, but it just seems like the BAR's pedestrian rate of fire and and small magazine capacity would make it a poor choice in this role. But...a quad pack of M2's? Now you're talking!!!

emcon5
August 11, 2009, 11:25 PM
I'm having enormous difficulty imagining an automatic weapon less suitable for anti-aircraft duty than the BAR !!!

The Arisaka type 99 thinks it is a fine idea (http://www.wwiiguns.com/store/images/tanaka_arisaka_type99_9_wwii.jpg):D

BlueTrain
August 12, 2009, 05:23 AM
You might be interested in knowing the BAR as well as the M1 continued in use in the National Guard well into the 1970s, even later in other armies.

SeekHer
August 13, 2009, 05:57 PM
cat9x -- The pictures in the book actually show two BAR's in an anti-aircraft side-by-side mount both with 40 round magazines. Cool picture, I'm guessing not an entirely horrible idea for a WWI anti aircraft firearm.

Except for a minor point, they were never used in WW1 ...War ended before they could be deployed...or after in Russia by the AEF...

The British used Brens and the Japanese used Type 97/99s in dual mounts with the big aircraft sights and thought them quite effective...

emcon5 -- The Arisaka type 99 thinks it is a fine idea

Those aren't aircrafat sights but a ladder style long range sight as found on the British Lee Enfields SMLE...

emcon5
August 13, 2009, 07:11 PM
Those aren't aircrafat sights but a ladder style long range sight as found on the British Lee Enfields SMLE... You are incorrect. Look closer.

Skans
August 14, 2009, 08:09 AM
The BAR was actually made in several different callibers other than 30-06 for military use. Magazines were made with capacities ranging from 20 rounds to 40 rounds. I've been reading a book on John Browning and just came across this. I found this interesting because I've never seen anything other than 20 round magazines for the BAR. Unfortunately, the book didn't specify whether anything larger than a 20 round magazine was ever made for the 30-06 model.

One other thing I read about the BAR - Browning made a model that had two different rates of fire, but no semi-auto selector position. Apparently, when the selector was switched to the lower rate of fire, it was reasonably easy to fire just one shot by "jerking" the trigger (actual term used in the book).

SeekHer
August 14, 2009, 08:59 AM
emcon5 -- Quote:
Those aren't aircrafat sights but a ladder style long range sight as found on the British Lee Enfields SMLE...

You are incorrect. Look closer.

These are the sights from a SMLE...standard type of ladder style long range sights in the up position...I believe that Mauser and Springfield had similar types of sights, mechanism slightly different between the different makers but the concept is the same...Technically they are called a Vernier sight!

Check out Vickers, Lewis, Browning 1919 MGs had them as well...The British Bren was copied by the Japanese and both had the same type of sights...

They all looked different, adjusted differently but work all on the same principle...Long range shooting at people...

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r130/SeekHer/SeekHer%20-%20Firearms/NO4MK2_IC_4.jpg

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r130/SeekHer/SeekHer%20-%20Firearms/4.jpg

Aircraft sights are those big round things, cut into pie pieces or gradients to adjust for lead like on this German MG 13 with double-drum magazine, on AA tripod...

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r130/SeekHer/SeekHer%20-%20Firearms/mg13_3.jpg

Best I could find on short notice...

emcon5
August 14, 2009, 11:00 AM
I apologize for furthering this hijack, I thought the Arisaka sight thing was funny when I posted it. In fact I still do.

These are the sights from a SMLE...standard type of ladder style long range sights in the up position...I believe that Mauser and Springfield had similar types of sights, mechanism slightly different between the different makers but the concept is the same...Technically they are called a Vernier sight!You are looking at the wrong part. Look again at the photo I linked, and see if you can find something about the Arisaka sight that is different than the SMLE. If it helps, sing this while you are looking. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WhuikFY1Pg)

They all looked different, adjusted differently but work all on the same principle...Long range shooting at people...The sights are certainly similar in function when used for that purpose. However those sights lack a feature of the Arisaka sight. (Hint: they are folded closed in the photo I linked)

Aircraft sights are those big round things, cut into pie pieces or gradients to adjust for lead like on this German MG 13 with double-drum magazine, on AA tripod...Not all of them.


Best I could find on short notice... Because you are looking for the wrong thing. Try this:
http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=arisaka+aircraft+sight

cat9x
August 14, 2009, 11:24 AM
Except for a minor point, they were never used in WW1 ...War ended before they could be deployed...or after in Russia by the AEF...

I never mentioned their use in WWI only that they were tested as a potential anti aircraft weapon during that era. Read James L Ballou's "Rock in a Hard Place - The Browning Automatic Rifle" and you'll have all the explanation you need.


You are incorrect. Look closer.

Actually the Arisaka did have anti-aircraft sights for low flying aircraft. Scroll down through the pages here...

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=5376261

Art Eatman
August 14, 2009, 11:50 AM
As long as we're drifting into ack-ack: My M-16 halftrack's quad-50 mount in Korea, if the solenoids were properly tuned, could fire 600 rounds/minute from each gun. However, down in the 450- to 500-range was more common--about like a BAR.

The turret rotation was maxed out for airplanes going faster than some 200 mph, across. However, if a plane came fairly directly toward you, shame on him.

Same for a BAR. 20 quick rounds for a plane to fly into could easily be a problem.

The thing to remember is that all manner of deals were tried during both WW I and WW II. Heck, and after, for that matter. Obviously, not all of these ideas were worth following up on. "Dustbin of history" and all that.

sneaky pete
August 14, 2009, 02:14 PM
old Sneaky Pete here: As mentione above I carried one in the Marines back in the 50s and SKANS mentioned the BAR had different rates of fire which was correct--but this was accomplished by a knob in front of the gas cylinder that had different sized gas ports and you would twist it to change the size of the opening and change the rate of fire--there was No seletor switch--at least not on any of the BARs that I handled, fired, or saw. Maybe the Army had BARs with selector switches??? THANX--SNEAKY:)