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Wildalaska
August 7, 2009, 09:18 AM
Havent seen much here about what pistol to wear while doing aerobics or how to carry in spandex tights?:D

Is that because the lessons taught by that shooting are painful for those who believe that carrying 24/7, every time, every place, everywhere... will "protect" them? Equally painful to those who carry lots of guns and BUGs and mags?

What are the lessons?

The first one is that a determined, armed adversary, acting with speed, surprise and firepower can accomplish his murderous mission before anyone, outside of a REAL military Operator, can react.....

The next one is that under some scenarios, fighting back would be more harmful than doing nothing... Consider, the lights go out and a flurry of shots ring out. The guy in the Hello Kitty leotard next to you drops down screaming I'm hit, as you fumble for the 1911 strapped to your custom made workout thigh rig....folks are running to and fro as bullets fly everywhere, some are falling, tell us how you engage?

Finally, the most important lesson is that no matter what, if you want to live life outside an armoured car and Kevlar full body armour, no one is ever fully safe. That, in conjunction with lesson first above, is why I frequently look askance at the overly armed crowd.

You can wear your lightning rod helmet and beat those head on lightning strikes, then while you are patting yourself on the back some ball lightning will whack you in the gut....

WildoneandtowandstepandheywaitihavetoadjustmythongholsterAlaska TM

Kyo
August 7, 2009, 09:36 AM
first lesson is that prostitutes save lives. this guy could have bought plenty and not killed anyone but decided to go so long being alone he went crazy feeling bad for himself.

scottaschultz
August 7, 2009, 09:37 AM
The first one is that a determined, armed adversary, acting with speed, surprise and firepower can accomplish his murderous mission before anyone, outside of a REAL military Operator, can react.....
This was just proven on June 10 when James W. von Brunn killed a security guard at the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC before he was shot. And this was by an 88 (some reports said 89) year old man who managed to do this in a place with armed guards using a rifle he openly carried into the museum. The really sad thing about this is that von Brunn, unlike George Sodini, is still alive and we are going to have to waste money on a trial!

Scott

Vanya
August 7, 2009, 10:56 AM
first lesson is that prostitutes save lives. this guy could have bought plenty and not killed anyone
Or, he'd have ended up killing prostitutes. It's been done fairly often.

"Guns don't kill people, misogyny kills people." :mad:

If you read Mr. Sodini's blog, he was mostly focussed on his own death, on getting out of his miserable existence; you don't have to be a shrink to see that he was massively depressed, and had been for most of his life. I think the real question, as opposed to lesson, here, is this: when, and why, did suicide come to include taking other people along?? A fairly common motive of suicides is "I'll make you sorry." "I'll make you pay for making me unhappy" seems more and more to take this rather literal form, whether it's the more usual murder/suicide involving a spouse or children, or this type of rampage shooting.

It's a pity he didn't (as far as we know) get treatment for the depression, which can be a life-threatening illness. (Please note that I'm in no way implying that Mr. Sodini wasn't responsible for his actions; I'm not a fan of the argument that "mental illness," except in very extreme cases, lets people off the hook for what they do.)

Kyo
August 7, 2009, 11:39 AM
he was alone for decades. thats why he was depressed

Vanya
August 7, 2009, 11:55 AM
he was alone for decades. thats why he was depressed
He was depressed for decades. That's why he was alone. ;)

Depression is organic, which is to say it's at least partly a function of brain chemistry. It also makes it really hard to get out and meet people or be the life of the party...

One of the best forms of "self-medication" for depression, if not the only one, is regular exercise. One of the things that's interesting about this case is that Mr. Sodini wrote in his blog that going to the gym was starting to make him feel better. I can't help wondering if there's an analogy here to the way that, in children and adolescents, antidepressant drugs increase the risk of suicide: once on the meds, it seems these patients feel just enough better to act out their suicidal tendencies. Perhaps something similar happened here, with exercise being the "drug" that enabled Mr. Sodini to act out...

Pure speculation, of course, and off topic. :o

thawntex
August 7, 2009, 12:15 PM
I believe the lessons articulated by the OP make a lot of sense.

Arming yourself only represents part of the equation. A gun is not a talisman.

For me, the lessons of defensive driving apply to everyday life:
Always have an escape route
Pay constant attention to those around you
Try to predict the actions of others
Control yourself when confronted with aggression

Yes, you can always be blindsided. But let's say you survive the first few shots, and returning fire isn't possible. Do you stay calm, trying to quickly escape or find cover, or do you run around in circles screaming and waving your hands in the air?

Pardon me, I just put down my copy of The Teaching of Buddha,
but let me just say this: attachment to worldly things (guns)=bad, mind control=good. Furthermore, one shouldn't take pride in good health. To expect to stay in one piece is to suffer. As such, I try not to worry about the eventual shredding of this body.

Japle
August 7, 2009, 01:42 PM
When I go to the gym, I carry a small bag that holds my wallet, car keys, cell phone, workout log and some other stuff.
If I went to a regular civilian gym, that bag would also contain my P3AT, but I go to the base gym. No concealed weapons on base.

I can only hope that, if anyone decides to shoot up the gym, they'll do it on a weekend when it's crowded and not on a weekday morning when most of the folks are dependant wives or retired guys like me.

Furthermore, one shouldn't take pride in good health. To expect to stay in one piece is to suffer. As such, I try not to worry about the eventual shredding of this body.

I'm going to be dead for billions of years.
No use rushing into it!!

ezenbrowntown
August 7, 2009, 01:43 PM
Lesson learned? "Anyone can get got......."

A concealed weapon is an extra tool in the tool box. It increases my chances, not guarantees them. Even with mental awareness, proper training, familiar equipment, etc., someone can still get the jump on any of us.

I'm not going to let fear dictate the way I live my life, as it's not life then. Do I stay prepared? Sure. Do I stay aware of my surroundings? Sure. But I'm also not going to go live where I can't enjoy things due to a fear of something happening. What's the point of going out with friends and watching the game if I can't enjoy either because I "have to" constantly scan my surroundings? For me at least, there's got to be a balance. Excellent drivers still get run into, but that doesn't keep them from driving ever again either.

a7mmnut
August 7, 2009, 01:49 PM
So now we have to be a "real military operator" to defend ourselves reliably? Sounds like more Obamanism to me. How sad: we've become a nation of scared, blind sheep.

-7-

Wildalaska
August 7, 2009, 01:56 PM
So now we have to be a "real military operator" to defend ourselves reliably? Sounds like more Obamanism to me. How sad: we've become a nation of scared, blind sheep.

Just what we need....off topic reductio ad obamamum screechsloganeering to add noise to the signal here.

Perhaps you need to reread the thread:rolleyes:

WildreadingcomprehensionisyourfriendAlaska ™

Shawn Thompson
August 7, 2009, 02:03 PM
The next one is that under some scenarios, fighting back would be more harmful than doing nothing...

Really?...Interesting perspective. At what point, or how long do you propose waiting before determining that doing nothing is now too late? As a whole, waiting and doing nothing is what took a terrible thing that happened at Virgia Tech, and turned it into a tragedy!

azredhawk44
August 7, 2009, 02:36 PM
Wild, I think the only thing that Pittsburgh really teaches us, is to embrace a warrior ethos that despite all your training or lack thereof, you can die. You can be happily sitting at an ice cream shop sharing a banana split with your lady fair and the clerk behind the counter just snaps from too much happiness and whips out a shotgun. Bang-boom, you and your girl are dead and you had no idea it was coming.

Lots of places in this world where you just aren't in "condition yellow/orange/red/brown/muave/sage/coyote." More than likely, most of us are in a dusty chartreuse state of mind in our daily endeavors.

You dive into Buddhist philosophy (or even some of the eastern European orthodox christianity stuff like "The Way of the Pilgrim") you see a lot of reference to re-birth and re-death. They don't mean that in terms of actual physical death, but more along the lines of a loss of daily awareness and cognizance.

If you switch on the autopilot and lose focus of your control (or is that control of your focus?)... are you really alive? Nope, you're in condition white or green or whatever.

Much of this translates to the warrior ethos written about most famously by Miyamoto Musashi, but also Gichin Funakoshi and even by some boring old white guys too.

Ultimately, the warrior embraces death in order to deliver it most quickly and win the battle. Detachment from his desires in life. Takes considerable training to maintain that mindset. Pretty much a full time job.

As for the Pittsburgh situation... Musashi himself would have been in spandex and sweatin' to the oldies and caught unawares, without his swords. About the only thing he might have done is thrown himself onto the gunman bare-handed, take the wounds that would result and try to kill him anyways.

Not many among us are that refined of a warrior. Not many among us have the desire or the discipline to reach that level of reaction, nor want to gamble and pay the price for the outcome.

It's best to come to terms with the fact that you can be caught unawares, in spite of the Deagle, matching colt commanders and ankle LCP you carry to the gym. Maybe make accommodation for places where carrying just isn't logistically possible by adding a pistol to your gym bag if discretely possible.

Aside from that: You can still be the first/second/third/fourth target before you react quickly enough to stop the shooting or at least make him go for cover. You can get hit. You can die.

And, in that reaction time you spend drawing a gun, you "could" run away instead or put bodies between you and the gunman.

Lots of choices, all of which can turn out bad. But it still boils down to the fact that a pistol doesn't grant cognizance of your surroundings, nor bullet proof status for the first rounds of a crazy shooter. You can die.

AZRedhawkacceptitandmoveonandhavesomeicecreamwithaprettygirl44

a7mmnut
August 7, 2009, 02:40 PM
I doubt it.

Kyo
August 7, 2009, 02:44 PM
if i had to take a lesson from this it would be to live life as best you can cause you don't know when your deadsauce. and I mean that.

Brian Pfleuger
August 7, 2009, 02:52 PM
Lots of choices, all of which can turn out bad. But it still boils down to the fact that a pistol doesn't grant cognizance of your surroundings, nor bullet proof status for the first rounds of a crazy shooter. You can die.

Bingo.

Farmland
August 7, 2009, 03:15 PM
Too close to home to put any real thoughts in place. Bridgeville really is not Pittsburgh though I guess it will now be remembered as the Pittsburgh shooting. So it is still a little hard to put everything in perspective when it hits close to home, after all aren't these things suppose to happen in the big cities. It is this last statement that may be the one to worry about.

Did we learn anything? I doubt we learned anything that we didn't already know. Crazy stuff can happen anywhere any time.

The only thing we can do is be aware of our surroundings the best that we can. The next is to expect the impossible in any place we may go. We certainly can't live in a bank vault but that doesn't mean that you can't start looking more at your surroundings.

I know I often find my self looking for exits and places that provide protection if only for a second when I'm out with the family. I often give a person with a large bag a little more attention, such as a duffel bag. I know I watch someone new that walks into a place that I have never seen or just doesn't fit.

I'm not paranoid but I certainly don't take too many things for granite today. After all my best defense to trouble is my self and the actions that I take.

Just remember Wild Bill sat with his back to the door. I try not to make the same mistake in life.

GHF
August 7, 2009, 08:44 PM
Keep in mind that George Sodini was an Active Shooter, and had a timeline in his head to indicate when shooting others stopped, and shooting himself was to take place.

My guess is that he had a short window of time, and was more concerned with making sure he ended up dead, and not wounded and arrested.

If you had a gun with you in the room, and he did get you in the first few shots, any return fire that you could have made would have upset his expectations, and forced an earlier exit. You would know where he was - even in the dark, he would have to find you when you started shooting, so at least your first shot would be a free one.

Steel nerves would necessary. You would have to have him look away from you when you started your play.

Pbearperry
August 7, 2009, 09:03 PM
Most likely in a short time,someone will come forward and make a silly statement about knowing this was going to happen.You can bet someone he knows was expecting this and did absolutely nothing to stop it.History keeps repeating over and over.

dk148
August 7, 2009, 09:47 PM
We are reminded that:

Safety and Security are an illusion.

There are people on this earth that are here for no other reason then to create chaos and destruction.

Composer_1777
August 7, 2009, 09:51 PM
His accuracy was bad though right? he killed 3 people using 37 bullets?

Buzzcook
August 7, 2009, 10:31 PM
When you're in the kind of shape I'm in, yoga and death are pretty much synonymous.

At some point individual efforts at self protection will fall short. There is also a point where communal efforts become way too onerous. I'm betting not many people would have joined this club if they had metal detectors and strip searches at the door...well, metal detectors at the door.

JagFarlane
August 9, 2009, 05:40 PM
Just a little nudge for this thread because I think the message here is way more valuable than most people are willing to admit.

For one, a response to challenging the having to be trained as military operative to be effective, the answer is no, with a however. The truth is, very few people can respond in the manner that is necessary in that sort of situation, you either don't have the resources or time to put in the level of training necessary. Remember, a military operative lives and breathes that sort of environment. Even still, they'll respond differently, a Ranger will respond differently than a SEAL who will respond differently than Delta, who will respond differently than FBI HRT, who reacts differently than a US Marshal, etc. etc. But in the end, they are highly trained for situations like that. For the average CCW, you're not.

Set the scene: Lights go out, shots are fired, screams, machinery being slammed around, moans of pain, people panicking and running for the nearest exit, people running into you, the location of the BG isn't necessarily known to you, your adrenaline is flowing signaling fight/flight syndrome, and there's a thick haze of gunsmoke in the air that clouds your senses. How many of you actually train for that?

The simple truth is, we don't, for various reasons. Until you've even been in any situation where you feel your life is threatened, you don't know how you'll react. Its not necessarily something that you can train for, outside of military/law enforcement training. This isn't to say don't carry...do carry [responsibly], train till you feel comfortable with your firearm and skills, then train some more.

Want to know the funny, honest answer to the adrenaline thread? The honest answer is, instinct takes over. This is why units train all the time, to get you to instinctively respond. So, if you carry a .454 Casull but still flinch hardcore with it when you shoot at the range, you're going to flinch. If you always take the time to drop your brass in your hand to save it at the range, you'll do it during the fight. So train smartly.

But the point of the thread is simple, you can't prevent everything, and if you spend all of your life in fear of someone doing something, you'll miss out on a lot of life. So be prepared, but at the same time, enjoy life. Enjoy watching the 20-something girl [or guy] in front of you in the tight spandex ride her bike like no tomorrow, just avoid having the view of Ken in his Hello Kitty thong doing jumping jacks. :D

LightningJoe
August 9, 2009, 05:58 PM
The lesson is that guns aren't a perfect solution to anything. Could you have whipped out your NAA mini when the lights went out and fired at his muzzle flashes? I guess. But you'd probably have been run over by an old lady in a leotard driving a Mercury Grand Marquis in the parking lot later. Life is dangerous. Guns occasionally help. Most of the time, they don't.

Tucker 1371
August 9, 2009, 06:07 PM
"Never trade luck for skill"

Nnobby45
August 9, 2009, 06:44 PM
The next one is that under some scenarios, fighting back would be more harmful than doing nothing...

That's what bureaucrats tell us all the time, though, admittedly, it's ususally all scenarios where it's recommended we submit.

In the Pittsburgh gym mass murder, I don't recall anyone dying because they fought back.

The first one is that a determined, armed adversary, acting with speed, surprise and firepower can accomplish his murderous mission before anyone, outside of a REAL military Operator, can react

I don't know how speedy and surprising he needed to be to gun down defensless women, in a carefully chosen environment, with no risk to himself.

He'd attempted it before, but became indecisive and chickened out on a couple of occasions. Unfortunatly, he was effective enough.

Don't know what all the lesson stuff is about. Who among us figured that we're completely safe because we're armed, or need to be told there no truly safe environments out there after attacks at schools, universities, churches, offices, malls, parking lots, stores, streets, law offices, coffee shops, court houses--- in the stairwell, parking garage, when hiking, going to the laundry room, in our homes, taking out the garbage, getting the mail, etc.


Some good lessons for aerobics class members, perhaps.

danweasel
August 9, 2009, 07:41 PM
Never trade luck for skill

Or... I'd rather be lucky than skilled any day of the week.

Kyo
August 9, 2009, 09:36 PM
luck can make you not dead by chance. skill keeps you not dead longer through knowledge.
I still pick luck. all the skill in the world can be a waste if you are the unlucky guy of a lucky placed shot.

m&p45acp10+1
August 9, 2009, 10:12 PM
OK here is my take on this.
Situational : Aerobics room of a gym. No cover, it is a large open floor. Lights were turned out. Some ambient light was coming through. He fires shots and it takes a moment for the ladies to figure out that some one is shooting people in the room. (Shock and Awe affect.) They then start to scrable out.
Time frame was less than a minute and a half. What I have gathered is he unloded both handguns as fast as he could pull the trigger. He then took out a revolver and killed hisself.
Subjective profile: (my personal opinion here) He was depressed and had the delusional thought that a girfriend or lover might help him to not be depressed any more. He bought his clothes, groomed himself, bought cologne, furnished his house, and chose his car all with hopes that it would have more appeal with women. He joined that very gym and started lifting weights in hopes of meeting a woman. When none of it seemed to work he decide life was just too miserable to go on. He decided he is gonna end it all and take out a few of his percieved tormentors. He could not go through with it before I feel because when it was lit it made it too personal for him to get past the thought of killing women. He goes home and keeps thinking of how can he cary it out. He stated in his journal "maybe this new idea will work this time" I personaly believe he decided to go back for the night class with the intentoin of turning out the lights and just opening fire. Thus being able to cary out his plan.
Aftermath: 3 dead several wounded, a couple of them criticly. Dead gunman by his own hand.
There are a lot of what ifs here. Honestly If one of those women had somehow say had a fanny pack and a handgun she may still have not been able to do much if anything. We all say get cover. Only way to get cover in that situaton is either behind a dead body, or get out of the room. Hoping you do not get one in the back on the way out. Or try to fire on him with the small amount of ambient light that was in the room.
Unfortuately There is no magic awnser to this.

Nnobby45
August 9, 2009, 11:39 PM
I still pick luck. all the skill in the world can be a waste if you are the unlucky guy of a lucky placed shot.




Some people discuss the issue as though luck were something you have the option to pick.

Luck and skill exist in two different contexts which aren't sympatric (they don't live in the same environment).


Better to stick with reality. Luck chooses you. Not you it. Without skill, you may not last long enough to allow luck to intervene in your behalf in a good way or bad.


Of course, no doubt, some folks would argue that being killed because of lack of skill is bad luck.:cool:

scottaschultz
August 10, 2009, 01:14 AM
Or... I'd rather be lucky than skilled any day of the week.
I met my wife through luck. I keep her through skill!

Scott

maestro pistolero
August 10, 2009, 01:40 AM
My first lesson: Validation. I am not paranoid after all for having my pistol in a bag that follows me from station to station as I work out at the gym.

I find it hard to believe that a person attempting to intervene could have made this situation any worse. You have a guy intentionally killing people with multiple firearms. The chances of me being his next target are what, 1 in 20, or 1 in 40? (based on however many people were in the room).

I follow the movement of the muzzle flashes while moving low and fast into position. If the alternative is to wait my turn to be executed, or watch innocent people die one after the other, I am by God going on the offense. I think I stand a way better than 50/50 chance of stopping the guy before becoming the next target.

Skan21
August 10, 2009, 03:05 AM
Think outside the box WA. You should be endorsing Thunderwear. www.thunderwear.com Just don't fall and accidently blow off your tender vittles by mistake! :eek:

SkanprettysoonWildAlaskaisgoingtosnipeouteveryonethatinfringesonhistrademark21 TM

Dannyl
August 10, 2009, 05:09 AM
Mmmmh, indeed that is a good question ( in the opening post)
I admit, I do not carry in some situations.

When I go to Gym I mostly swim, but even if I was doing other stuff, I do not think that I would carry.
the same applies when I go horse-riding ( I fear to think of what my mare would do if I let off a shot while being on her back, but I am pretty sure that it would end up with me taking sand out of my ears).

I also have not seen any skydivers carrying guns, we had a safe in the club where we would lock our guns while we were busy with the day's jumping.

At the end life is not B&W but several shades of gray, and I make it a point to asses the risk of everything I do and IMO, the chances of someone opening up while I am at the Gym or horse riding are rather slim and since carrying then is not very practical for me, I don't.


This does not make me feel bad or as if I am inconsistent.

Brgds,
Danny

Poseidon28
August 10, 2009, 07:13 AM
Sad Ken comes to that conclusion. If everyone of those women had a 22lr Beretta, or, some sort of deep ccw, in thunderwear, the guy might have been met by a hail of 22 bullets, better then being shot up.

All it shows is when you go into a Free Fire Zone, where all guns are banned, your screwed...

mike45
August 10, 2009, 11:50 AM
I also have not seen any skydivers carrying guns, we had a safe in the club where we would lock our guns while we were busy with the day's jumping.


Danny is quite right. I watched my son jump out of perfectly good airplane this past weekend. Everything must come out of the pockets and off the belts... wallets, phones, knives, and most certainly guns.

I take martial arts. Do not ever let one of the instructors, or worse yet, the head man himself, find you packing a gun while you're on the mats working out.

There are situations where you can not carry a gun. You just have to deal with it and have a plan "B". Then have a plan "C".

spacemanspiff
August 10, 2009, 12:12 PM
Who said guns were banned from the gym?

Brian Pfleuger
August 10, 2009, 12:14 PM
There are situations where you can not carry a gun. You just have to deal with it and have a plan "B". Then have a plan "C".

Indeed.

Plan A) Carry a gun.

Plan B)Take the 300,000,000 to 1 chance that today won't be the day or the place.

Plan C) Be hard to hit.

pax
August 10, 2009, 12:41 PM
WildAlaska,

You know better than that, and you're just potstirring for the "fun" of watching online strangers get mad at you. Knock it off.

Just because all scenarios aren't survivable, does not mean that it's stupid or pointless to improve your odds by being prepared to cope with the ones that are survivable.

And as for fighting back somehow causing more harm than simply dying for the guy's sick pleasure, I don't see that in this situation. There are other situations where the best strategy might be to wait and see what happens before choosing to fight back, but I don't see anyone in this situation getting more dead simply because they tried to survive.

pax

Wildalaska
August 10, 2009, 01:03 PM
You know better than that, and you're just potstirring for the "fun" of watching online strangers get mad at you. Knock it off.

Havent seen folks getting to worked up here yet (for a change)

At any rate, I think it is a legitimate issue. Sort of like being armed at the beach when wearing, as I do, skimpy attire..or in the swimming pool, or the shower.

Just because all scenarios aren't survivable, does not mean that it's stupid or pointless to improve your odds by being prepared to cope with the ones that are survivable.


I am not arguing for being prepared...I am arguing at the LEVEL of preparedness...something which I see many posters agree with...

There are other situations where the best strategy might be to wait and see what happens before choosing to fight back,

My main point here....some situations would MANDATE that even if armed, one not fight back (at least immediately)...

WildtherearemanyothersceanriosAlaska ™

FireForged
August 10, 2009, 01:25 PM
We all realize that action is faster than reaction. That is the reason that we wear a seatbelt while driving instead on trying to buckle up only when we see a accident comming. I try to live and enjoy life as normally and responsibly as possible. All I can do is to try and be reasonably prepared to midigate the likely dangers that are associated with life. There is no way that I can protect against everything and I dont try to.

Vanya
August 10, 2009, 02:02 PM
For me, the lessons of defensive driving apply to everyday life:
Always have an escape route
Pay constant attention to those around you
Try to predict the actions of others
Control yourself when confronted with aggression

I know I often find my self looking for exits and places that provide protection if only for a second when I'm out with the family. I often give a person with a large bag a little more attention, such as a duffel bag. I know I watch someone new that walks into a place that I have never seen or just doesn't fit.

Both of these comments make the real point here, I think. Whether you're armed or not in a given situation, you're much safer if you routinely pay attention to your surroundings... You can buy a gun, spend money on training and ammunition, etc., but none of that will make you safe if you're not thinking defensively as a routine part of how you meet the world. Knowing where the exits are, knowing where there's cover and/or concealment, noticing that the guy in the black workout suit who just walked in is listing to one side from the weight of his gym bag... priceless.

I like the defensive driving analogy a lot better than notions about "warrior mindsets" and the like. It's just an everyday habit of awareness, of not letting someone sit in your blind spot, of scanning down the road for potential trouble... Is it a guarantee that you won't be the one who's blindsided? No, but it sure reduces the odds.

Another analogy: When my dog and I were taking obedience classes, one of the other students had a question: "My dog always comes when called when I'm training him, but he won't do it when I'm not -- what should I do?" Umm -- and the reason you're ever not training him is....?

AZAK
August 10, 2009, 02:27 PM
WildoneandtowandstepandheywaitihavetoadjustmythongholsterAlaska TM

The Hello Kitty shower cap image, in posts from the past, was a bit unnerving; however, this image of you is downright scary!

outside of a REAL military Operator, can react.....
I am in agreement with pax on this one. Just a bit of baiting going on here.

Poseidon28
August 10, 2009, 03:09 PM
Perhaps if you have a free fire zone area like that, you need to be sued for such an act.

In the past, the action of a third party, violating the law, has been a barrier against the recovery for deaths they cause. Perhaps the case has to be made that if you have a Free Fire zone, like a court room, school, gym due to policy, that you have a duty to keep those people safe. This should mean as the courts do, metal detectors, police on hand, and taking any item that you are not supposed to have in the area.

If you fail to provide such services, the families of the dead should be allowed recovery, since your actions created a situation where they were helpless, unable to protect themselves from someone with a firearm.

BlackFeather
August 10, 2009, 03:10 PM
Well... considereing someone saw the guy on a bus before hand holding a "grenade" and after the police had him the guy who saw him earlier couldnt identify him... so after the cops let him go apparently without searching him he went on to kill people... at least thats what im hearing on the news this morning...

ThomasPaine
August 10, 2009, 03:21 PM
Crazy people will somehow always find a way to get armed, it does not matter how many laws/barriers you put in front of them. It is the job of sane people to defend themselves when crazy people show themselves to be a threat and WE CANNOT DO IT IF THE GOVERNMENT TOUCHES OUR GUNS!!! I tell the government the same thing about my guns that I would tell Michael Jackson about a little boy... "NO TOUCHY!!!"

ThomasPaine
August 10, 2009, 03:22 PM
about the subject and space bar slip up... cannot edit title... bloody typos

Wildalaska
August 10, 2009, 03:28 PM
I am in agreement with pax on this one. Just a bit of baiting going on here.

really AZAK? Ok, I for one have the honesty to admit in in the Gym Scenario, I for one would be doing more harm than good in attempting to take down an attacker....

Most of us are not trained to react in a dark environment with screaming, bullets flying, bodies running about everywhere against a shooter who has the advantage of surprise and position....

So how is that baiting...because some folks THINK they could do some good in that scenario and it hurts their feelings because they cant?

isnt it part of Tactics and training to know your limitations?

WildsoundslikeasubjectfordiscussiontomeAlaska ™

rickyjames
August 10, 2009, 04:09 PM
good post....good question. kinda makes all those what holster should i use when taking a shower, or what gun should i choose when i'm at the beach wearing nothing but speedos questions look as stupid as they really are.

i knew a pres. of a national m/c club. he walked out of a bar filled with his friends one nite. he had a friend on either side, all were armed. one shot rang out and he was dead. the sniper disappeard without any return fire. if kings and presidents can be shot it is nothing but arrogance to think a concealed handgun and a few trips to the range will somehow make you invincible. i'm not saying to leave your guns at home, i'm just saying if you let fear dictate your life or you will never be more than arms length from your gun vault and there is alot of life that you will be missing out on. i say be careful, take precautions, don't act foolish or stupid but there is alot of good stuff out there. don't live as a prisoner of your own mind.

AZAK
August 10, 2009, 04:12 PM
I for one have the honesty to admit in in the Gym Scenario, I for one would be doing more harm than good in attempting to take down an attacker....

I would call it belief rather than honesty. "The ideas in your head rule your world." To paraphrase a source or two.

Most of us are not trained to react in a dark environment with screaming, bullets flying, bodies running about everywhere against a shooter who has the advantage of surprise and position....

Most of us are not trained for much of what happens in life period. Does this constitute just sitting on our Hello Kitty thongs, and bemoaning the fates? Godot, Godot, where for art thou Godot?.

So how is that baiting...because some folks THINK they could do some good in that scenario and it hurts their feelings because they cant?

Thinking that you can do something is paramount to doing it. When you think you "cant"... self-fulfilling prophesy.

Poseidon28
August 10, 2009, 04:26 PM
It's simple logic. If I'm a criminal, I go to a place that stops people from defending themselves. Can we say San Francisco and New York?

Why bother trying to rob people in states where I might get shot? Louisiana, Florida, Texas, Alaska??. Heck no. I want a place with the least security, and, the best chance possible of not getting shot. Schools, etc. free fire zones, no resistance, best place to rob...

Then if I do get caught, why not a place they can't keep me in jail? Kali...

Daugherty16
August 10, 2009, 04:42 PM
The people in the gym a split second before the freak got there felt safe enough. They were just doing something they do routinely. And not one of them was at fault, nor were they wrong. They just didn't know a monster was coming in the door because he didn't look like a monster until he started shooting.

Take me. i live in a New England state, and everyday i get on two different trains and then a subway, to get to my job at the Federal Building in the big apple. Aside from my wits, two hands and a sharp tongue, i am unarmed (discounting the cheap clip-on knife clinging to the liner of my briefcase). This is not how i like it, it merely is. The perception of relative safety on the trains and in the Federal Building have so far been reliable, except for a couple close encounters with drunken Yankee fans that were defused by others.

I am also a 9/11 survivor - my former office was at 6 WTC, overlooking the plaza and 40 feet from tower 1. The stuff i saw that morning wasn't on TV - cameras couldn't get close enough fast enough (but i'll bet they tried) to see folks hitting the pavement 20 feet in front of my building. In the months and years afterward, i decided to build up my gun collection and obtain a CCW. I was angry, and wanted to never feel that helpless again, especially when my family was with me.

So i carry when and where i can, including around the house, perhaps 50% of the time. I carry because i want that answer - lethal force - available at a moment's notice if some thug decides it's time to kill me, rape my wife, you get the idea. But i've noticed that when i carry i have a feeling of safety that i know is false. If anything, when you carry you are more vulnerable. Why? Because your instinct to run away from danger may well be overridden by the "power" at your side and your training to assess and respond. Right or wrong, your first response - even at a massacre like the Pittsburgh gym - probably won't be flight.

The lesson? Be unafraid and stand up for yourself as you believe appropriate; stay in code yellow, but live your life. None of us get out of it alive anyway.

Vanya
August 10, 2009, 05:49 PM
Thinking that you can do something is paramount to doing it. When you think you "cant"... self-fulfilling prophesy.
Have you tried this approach for, oh, flying, for example? :p

It's not a matter of "thinking you can't," but of a realistic assessment both of your limitations and of the situation you're in. I may want to believe I can take on a 6'4" 250# football player in hand-to-hand combat, but I'm going be a lot better off "thinking I can" run away... :rolleyes:

But i've noticed that when i carry i have a feeling of safety that i know is false. If anything, when you carry you are more vulnerable. Why? Because your instinct to run away from danger may well be overridden by the "power" at your side and your training to assess and respond. Right or wrong, your first response - even at a massacre like the Pittsburgh gym - probably won't be flight.
If you're aware of this, you're ahead of the game compared to many here. Maybe we ought to be practicing escape and evasion, as well as the other more aggressive stuff. It's a perfectly good tactic.

Nnobby45
August 10, 2009, 06:12 PM
Take the 300,000,000 to 1 chance that today won't be the day or the place.


Right. Be of the Wildebeast mentality by recognizing that it's a virtual certaintly that the lion will get one of you, but figure the odds are it won't be you on any given day at any particular place.

Of course, as the days and years mount up, the odds aren't as much in the grass muncher's favor that it won't happen.

Lesson: Except for the sick or injured, the grass muchers killed by predators all had those excellent odds working in their favor so they had nothing to worry about.

Poseidon28
August 10, 2009, 06:30 PM
For perspective:
The FBI results for San Francisco are that you have a 1 in 17 chance of being a victim of a violent crime, per year. Most other big cities are in that range, as well.

So, that 3000000000 whatever to one is real bull.

Wildalaska
August 10, 2009, 06:36 PM
Most of us are not trained for much of what happens in life period. Does this constitute just sitting on our Hello Kitty thongs, and bemoaning the fates? Godot, Godot, where for art thou Godot?.


So you think its advisable, for some 21 year old aerobics instructor who got her permit yesterday, to engage in the gym scenario?

Part of owning a gun is recognizing when its not good to use it. And the entirety of your response in Grandmaison-like in its simplistic danger.

WildloffensiveaoutranceAlaska ™

pax
August 10, 2009, 06:37 PM
PM sent.

Closed.

pax