An unknown gun?Pls check it.

[pksu]

Hi Experts
I am from China.WW1 and WW2 were happend in our land.This gun was left by my grandfather.He was also know few of gun. Now I am owning this gun,I want to know further about it.Counld you tell me anything that you know or give me some key information.

Look forward to your reply.
Many Thanks!


the link of the gun pictures: http://tinypic.com/useralbum.php?ua=E7loMrZNi6ETaX7TbGWmhw%3D%3D

[B. Lahey]

Wow, that is very strange. I have never seen a bolt-action double-barreled shotgun before (although the bolts seem to act as breechplugs more than bolts). Can you post a photo of the bolts out of the gun?

I can't get the bigger photos to load, so it's tough to say for sure, but it looks like it has a mixture of Russian and English writing on it, maybe other languages as well.

Very very odd.

Looks like it could be homemade.

Thanks for sharing, it is a very unique item. Hopefully somebody here knows more about it than I do.

[Smokin_Gun]

Cool Shotgun , I like rare breeds...

[pksu]

Some one says it's a punt gun.Do you agree with it.

[B. Lahey]

No, punt guns are enormous shotguns used for commercial hunting. They tend to be the size of small cannons, and are usually mounted on boats.

That one is a much smaller shotgun of the traditional shoulder-fired type.

Do you know what gauge it is? If you could measure the bore somebody could probably tell you what shells it takes (you may not want to fire it, but knowing more is always good).

13 seconds into this video, you will see a punt gun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7FeeamC4qk

[pksu]

length 172CM Weight 16KG
How to measure the gauge?The gauge of this gun is much bigger than my finger.

[B. Lahey]

Wait... 16 kilos?!?!

That's pretty hefty, and much larger than I could tell from the photos.

It may not quite be a punt gun by the traditional definition. I don't really know the line where "huge shotgun" turns into "punt gun", but I can understand why someone would call it that.

Which finger are you talking about? If it is much bigger than your thumb, it takes some very big shells. I'm guessing 8 gauge or larger, but you would have to measure.

Just measure from one inside edge to the other inside edge of the barrel. Milimeters or CM would work as you seem to be on the metric side of things, but inches would work too.

[arcticap]

172 CM is about 5 feet 8 inches long.

That sounds like it will have a big bore.
Maybe that's big enough to shoot an elephant?
The gauge stands for how many balls of bore size can be cast from 1 pound of lead. A 4 bore would make 4 bore size balls from 1 pound of lead.

Now days there are standard measurements for gauge based on this old English system.

[B. Lahey]

I finally got your bigger photos to load and this one is interesting. It appears to be ammunition instructions, but I have no idea what this "K" measurement is. Whatever it is, I think it takes a 50 k-weight solid shot, 5 Ks of blackpowder, or 3 Ks of "non-r powder" which may be some kind of early smokeless powder.

Did your grandfather ever hunt tigers? Or elephant?

NO TWIN FIRE! (don't fire both barrels at the same time). Very sound advice.:D

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn298/brendanclaude/NOTWINFIRE.jpg

[pksu]

one inside edge to the other inside edge is about 7CM.
I want to say its's behind the butt of a secret hiding places. spin two screws to open it, put a little blackpowder inside with Oilpaper .

[B. Lahey]

Wow! That is HUGE!

From what I have found searching around the internet, that's somewhere between a "half bore" and "AA bore" gun, which is bigger than anything I have ever heard of being shoulder-fired.

Is there rifling (spiral grooves) in the barrels?

The bolts look kind of like they are from Arisaka rifles (Japanese, world war two).

[Dingoboyx]

I'd be stopping real quick and puttin' my hands up as far as I could get 'em :eek:

A friend of mine (a local gun dealer) has a blown up old black & white photo, framed on his wall, of his mate firing a 4 ball off his shoulder :eek: The guy is on one foot, (front foot off the ground) the gun is aiming up in the air (vertical) with the muzzle flash visible :eek: Evidently the guy broke his nose and dislocated his thumb as he fell flat on his back :D

The gun in the pictures here, looks like it might have been something the Chinese from long ago, made for their own use, maybe hunting, but possibly military/navy? Can you post a picture with something to give us an idea of its dimentions? Like a breifcase (or a tape measure?)

Interesting, to say the least :D

[Dingoboyx]

That 12 and the circles on the bottom plate make me think it is a 12ga I think our mate measured between the barrels (inside of on to inside of other and got confused between 7 centimeters & 7 millimeters? Looking at the size of the triggers and the size of the barrels, it does look alot like a 12 ga? The bore size is definately not 7 centimeters/ 2 1/2"?

measure again the size of the hole the bullet goes in at the end of one of the barrels? Is it about 17mm?

Can you take it to a gunshop? or do you have to hide the fact you own the gun now? Maybe a gun shop or museum (especially a 'War Museum') could help you identify it? If I were you, i would not be firing it, but would get a valueation on it, it might be worth ALOT of money.... like that square bullet musket from a while back

I also think the gun is alot older than WW2 I reckon more like WW1 or before that even?

[pksu]

There is no gunshop in my country. I had to help forume users to know the truth, perhaps a number of gun-lovers will figure it out.
7CM is two pipes together.Maybe 3.2CM one bore!!



To Dingoboyx: What does "If I were you, i would not be firing it, but would get a valueation on it" mean?

[JohnKSa]

A 7cm bore diameter would correspond to something larger than a quarter bore. In other words, a lead ball of muzzle diameter would weigh over 4lbs--about 4.49lbs.

The writing is English but looks like it has been copied by someone who read no or very little English. It's hard to know what's been lost in the copying process as a result.

[simonkenton]

He is saying that one barrel is 3.2 cm, or 32mm.
That is about 1.25 inches.

That is a punt gun.

[dev_null]

Is the stamped "Xinhua" (lit. "New China," but also a province, as well as a popular corporate name) a manufacturer's mark or an armory mark?

[Double Naught Spy]

I think it is a punt gun as well.

[arcticap]

According to this chart, it's just slightly less than a 2 gauge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauge_(shotgun)

When loaded with lead shot, a gun like this could be used for shooting many birds at the same time.
If loaded with round balls, there's no telling what it could be used for.

[pksu]

Is nothing else except a punt gun ? These are two words called my gun.1:is a small punt gun. 2: is a homemade shotgun.I think the second is much more accurate.But I think it's not Made in China.We don't have that made skill in early 1900's.I think Europe or Soviet Union is much more suitable.What do you think?

[HeroHog]

That is one long puppy right there! I would like to see pictures of the chambers and the bolts. How are the shells extracted?

[pksu]

Fix mistake: Just to look carefully measure this gun, it's about 170cm and 4.5kg.I can hold it With a little effort.Sorry :p

[JohnKSa]

He is saying that one barrel is 3.2 cm, or 32mm.Yup, you're right. That would make a lead ball of muzzle diameter about 3,000 grains.

So the gun is roughly a 2ga that's about 5.6ft long and weighs just under 10lbs.

[Dingoboyx]

It is a darn nice gun :D

I would be proud to own it, you are a lucky puppy pksu :D

[pksu]

Thank you Dingoboyx.
Sure that you judge my Speculation.

[B. Lahey]

Are the barrels rifled? (do they have spiral grooves in them?)

But I think it's not Made in China.We don't have that made skill in early 1900's.I think Europe or Soviet Union is much more suitable.What do you think?

Looks Chinese-homemade to me. It's weird enough to be Russian, but even cruder than you would expect. It probably uses parts from all over that found their way to China. Japanese war-surplus bolts, homemade receiver, barrels from who knows where (maybe India or Pakistan)...

[arcticap]

I think that it has British influence and may have come from Hong Kong.
At the very least, it could have come through Hong Kong as a result of it being such a large trading port under British control, and possibly originating from some other location under the control of the British. :)

[firemannw]

I don't know what it is but it sure would be fun to shoot!:D

[ken22250]

i know that the 2ga or 2 bore is the largest bore the brits ever used in there bubble barrel rifles (shouder fired, at least). i would agree that is looks to be home-made, and probally made of parts from various guns. if you are allowed to have firearms in your country, i would take it to a historical center and see if they can identify it, it may be wort a lot of money, aside from the centimental value of it being handed down from your grandfather. arround 10 lbs sounds light for a factory made 2 bore, they were usually much havier than that.you are very lucky to have a gun like that.
ken

[pksu]

To ken

By the way,Your says " it may be wort a lot of money".But how much?(Tell me a price what you Estimated)

[ken22250]

im sorry but i really dont know, but usually, old and unique guns are worth a lot of money, but they are usually worth a lot to gun collectors. to some people they are worth more than they are to others. it varries person to person. if you are able to take it to a museam or historical center, they may be able to give you an approximate value of your gun.
ken

[B. Lahey]

Are the barrels rifled? (do they have spiral grooves in them?) (are the insides of the barrels smooth, or do they have ridges looping around the inner surfaces?)

I would not count on it being worth much money at all. It is interesting and unique, if it was in the US, somebody would probably pay a few hundred dollars for it, but the value would be more like a "Khyber Pass" hand-made gun from Pakistan than anything else.

Homemade guns are interesting, but not usually very valuable.

It belonged to your grandfather, so it is probably worth more to you than anyone else.

[ken22250]

i agree that the centimental value is going to be much higher than any fiscal value, i have been looking at chinese firearms markings and i found similar makrigs dating back to the 1870's, but not exactly the same.
ken

[pksu]

To ken
It is not know whether it was manufactured in China. The value is not clear. I will not sell. Thank you for your advice

To B. Lahey
What is spiral grooves?How to check it in the pipes.It's so long to check.

When I was a child, I see some long guns used by Britain Soldiers in 1840's on TV.The 1840 is important to CHINA,what we called Opium War.In that war,some Britain Soldiers used guns something like this,which blackPowder loaded from the top of guns.My gun also used this design.So I guess it's the same period Products.

[Dingoboyx]

Looking at the pic below, it appears to be a smoothie... I am almost positive it is a 12ga based on the side on pic showing the triggers and size of the barrels in relation to the triggers.

pksu, maybe if you want to sell it, put it on an auction site (like ebay) and put a rediculously high price on it.... if you get any bidders, you will know if it is sought after or not.... then you can reduce the price after that :D

http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=50516&d=1249901421

[Hawg Haggen]

but usually, old and unique guns are worth a lot of money

Some unique guns are worth something but just because a gun is old doesn't mean it's worth much. If it's a name brand like Colt or Winchester then it's worth something depending on condition but there's plenty of original percussion and flint muzzleloaders in shootable condition for less than 1000.
Percussion SXS shotguns can often be had for less than 500.
I have no idea what this gun would be worth, never saw one like it but the writing on it is a lot like what is seen on guns made by little one man shops in India.

[pksu]

Put on Ebay is Inappropriate.I think gun lovers in the forum will pay me a price.

[arcticap]

I finally saw the pictures at full size and it looks like it has some beautiful features. The top of the receiver looks especially interesting. The 3 intertwining circles on each side look like proofmarks. While it looks like it was made in China, the numbers have western influence.
I don't think that it's from the 1840's but later.
And I think that it's worth some money, not just to the collector but to a builder who would like to analyze it and reproduce it.
I think that it could be worth anywhere from $500 to $1500 depending on where it's being sold.
That gun doesn't look like it's in as bad shape as some antique wall hangers in worse condition that can and do cost a good sum of money.
$750 - $1250 U.S. Dollars shouldn't be too far off. :)

[pksu]

$750 - $1250 U.S. Dollars shouldn't be too far off.
Thank you for your suggustion.I want to sell to Waste station if it was.:D

My grandfather told me that this thing can change your life.So keep it well.
I have been deeply believe this.But now you say only worth 1,000!!!!! Can you give me a little hope of survival.:(

[arcticap]

My grandfather told me that this thing can change your life.So keep it well.
I have been deeply believe this.But now you say only worth 1,000!!!!! Can you give me a little hope of survival.:(


Maybe your grandfather meant that it would change your life in a way besides money.

Maybe he wanted you to understand that a firearm is much like the manhood which was passed down from father to son to each of us since the beginning of mankind. Manhood is a link in an unbroken chain which never stopped or ended. Manhood is not an invention, it's something that can only be passed down. He wanted you to be able to hold something that he held in his hands...his gift to you.


And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. - Bible Proverb

[JohnKSa]

I think gun lovers in the forum will pay me a price.You are correct that guns can not be sold on Ebay. As far as selling it on the forum, I should warn you that selling a gun outside of your own country can be very difficult to do because of legal restrictions, and probably the process would be very expensive.

If you can find a buyer in your country that would probably be much better. I have no idea what the gun laws are like in your country, but you should check them before advertising it.

[pksu]

TO arcticap

I know what your say.But why the gift is gun.I don't like firearm,I hate the war,hate everything have realationship with war.I don't want to pass it down,though it's a gift from my grandfather.

Peace for ever!!!!

[JohnKSa]

That kind of gun is almost always for hunting, not for war.

[arcticap]

I know what your say.But why the gift is gun.I don't like firearm,I hate the war,hate everything have realationship with war.I don't want to pass it down,though it's a gift from my grandfather.

The gun is not the only gift, it is only a symbol of the real gift. The more you hold it the better, and then after a while you will understand how it changed your life and then you can get rid of it.
The gun is just a material thing, but the gift lasts forever!

Peace!:)

[pksu]

My grandfather isn't a hunting man.He never hunted.He told me nothing except it's a officer's old shotgun.

To arcticap

Thank you.You are so kind to let me hold my dream.

One world,One dream.

[GringoGrande]

I used what I could see of the bullet/shot weight and black powder weight. Using FF BP, it seems to be comparable to a HOT 12 gage load. Also, the markings look very much like the Nepalnese markings on the old muskets and rifles being sold now from their armory. It truly fits with a Nepal/Idian/Brit style of 1840's or so. Some of the screw heads look newer and centered, usually hand made screws have the center line off just a little and not as pefectly rounded off as the ones in the pics.

It looks like a Fowling piece for Lords and Officers, although the weight of it totally throws me off, that is close to 38 pounds if you truly mean 16kilo. That sure does seem heavy for a 12 gage no matter how hot the black powder load is or would have been. It does not look that heavy though. There does not seem to be a trindle, trundel or bi-pod attachment. It may have been laid on the shoulder of a hunting assistant and fired that way if it is that heavy. I also notice there are no below the barrel notches or holders for a ram rod.

The rifles and muskets coming out of the Nepal armories, seem to be going for around $600 to $1200 and there are a few shot guns in that mix but nothing that heavy. Those triple circle marks are on some of the muskets, but those muskets are French, Britt and Prussian depending on which Nepal firearm it may be, so it could be an import to Nepal or China mark ?? .

The guy that owns and runs Sportsman Guide in Minnesota is a Nepal firearm nut, maybe he can identify it, he used to have a ton of the firearms for sale. Also Atlantic Cutlery Corp sells the Nepal pieces and maybe they can identify it...http://www.atlantacutlery.com/p-1566-percussion-hunting-fowler-rifle.aspx

No, it cannot be sold on eBay. To sell on any site other than a chinese site would require a export and import permission, not all that hard to get USA BATFE import approval since it is an antique and black powder, but lord knows China wise what would be required.

I would first look into selling it to a Chinese Museum of some sort, rather than trying to sell it to someone outside of China. I believe if you desire to sell it outside of China, the UK would be your best bet.

If it were me, I would get it ID'd, clean it, oil it and hang it in the home somewhere. It is NOT a WAR firearm. It is a sporting firearm of some sorts for sure.

Hope this helps

Regards
Gringo Grande -

P.S. I personally am not for a one world, one dream, I enjoy my country, the USA just the way it is minus the liberals and dems.

[pksu]

TO GringoGrande

WOW!!!So cool,What a detailly explaintion you are!Thank you for your advice.I will think it carefully,then make a decision.
Are you sure that it may come out of the Nepal armories?Why?The Nepal's firearm is very famous or something else.I am know nothing about Nepal.


Can you give me some advice in how to maintant firearms?You can see it almost get rusty.How to clean?How to oil?

[arcticap]

I wasn't aware of any general restrictions or that BATF approval was needed to import black powder guns into the U.S., only import duties.
Have you heard about any specific restrictions on importing black powder guns into the U.S. simply because it's from China?
Shipping it anywhere overseas would probably be expensive and the British import duties might be even more expensive than in the U.S..
But I do agree that selling it in China would save some money. Perhaps there are antique or specialty shops in Hong Kong that could offer it for sale to a foreign gun collector, local businessman or tourist?

[GringoGrande]

Not so much a restriction as it is a certification by BATF, then what ever state department rules and conditions apply.

I am not sure what cleaning products you have in china so:

FIRST and FOREMOST: determine if it is loaded: Use any king of wood rod and place down the barrels, mark the wood rod where the tip of the front f the barrel is (muzzel). Then take the rod out and lay next to the barrel, even or flush with the breech or where the back of the barrels end on the outside. if the mark is below where the muzzel is, it is loaded, if it is even with the muzzel, then it is unloaded: IF IT IS LOADED DO NOT DO ANYTHING TO IT: TAKE IT TO A GUN SMITH IF THEY ARE AVAILABLE THERE OR SOMEONE WHO KNOWs BLACK POWDER GUNS AND KNOWS HOW TO REMOVE THE BULLET VIA A SCREW TIP ROD OR AIR HOSE ON THE NIPPLES. Old black powder is stabil as it does not have any nitro, tolulene or glycerine in it. After it is unloaded, rinse out with HOT water and measure again with the marked stick until you get it even with the back of the barrel to the mark on the stick.

For over all cleaning the rust off, automotive automatic transmission fluid with a soft paint brush and then rinse with kerosene or white gas until the rust is down to metal. Then coat the metal with NEW plain auto motive engine oil inside and out.

If you do not have automotive or gun oils there, just use straight mineral oil aka clear baby oil. DO NOT USE animal fats or animal oils as this will corrode the metal even further.

The stock I would just clean with a good furniture cleaner if avail and if not, use oil soap like a Murphys and if that is not avail a pine based floor cleaner or floor cleaner used on wood. Then allow it to dry, then use almost any kind of furniture wax on it.

To be honest though, I would NOT clean it until you truly find out what it is as cleaning it may ruin any collector value it may have. based on the pictures, it does not look as big as has been stated, maybe a picture with a human holding it would help. The thickness of the barrels wall does not match what a normal punt gun barrel wall thickness would be, it looks more standard wall thickness. Plus there is a sling hole for a leather or hemp rope sling that does not look HUGE as it would have to be for a 38 pound, 2 bore punt gun. Something is not adding up here, so a pic with an average sized human would help a lot.

In China, I know there are NO so called Gun Shops as they use Gun Brokers, so using a Gun Broker may help identify the gun and also allow some estimate on actual value.

If it is a Nepal PUNT GUN, it can be worth up to $30,000 in the rusted condition, but I am highly doubting it is a Punt Gun due to being double barreled and the thin wall thickness of the barrels......and am betting it is just a sporting field gun used by lords and officers.

Regards,
Steve

[James K]

The markings are in English, though a very imperfect English. That indicates that the gun was made somewhere that English influence was strong and where it might be passed off as an English product. I think that would not have been true in China; a gun made to sell in China would probably have markings in Chinese, not English.

I hate to keep blaming that sort of work on Darra Pass in Pakistan/Afghanistan, but that gun is like some guns made in that general area. It is not a home made gun in the sense of something put together in a basement. There is an original design and clear evidence of the use of some machinery, yet it is not European or American.

Jim

[pksu]

Thank you guys.I learn more gun Knowledge from this topic.Thank you for share.

To GringoGrande
Thank you for your advice.I will listen to you.First clean it,oil it and hang it up in my guestroom.Maybe I counld buy a Deer-head hang it together.When I have some home-party,I will be pound to tell my friends."This is my grandfather's Booty".WOW,what a great gun I have.

[arcticap]

The gun is marked "Xinhua", and a Google search of Xinhua lists:

1. The city of Xinhua, Taiwan. The area was controlled by the Dutch East India Trading Company by 1636 until 1662. The Dutch started hunting Taiwan's sitka deer and it eventually became extinct, so there's a tradition of hunting on the island.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinhua,_Tainan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tainan_County

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan

2. Xinhua is also the name of the official Chinese news agency.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinhua_News_Agency

3. A company named Xinhua China Ltd.

http://www.hoovers.com/xinhua-china/--ID__120003--/free-co-factsheet.xhtml

According to the official county website:

The name Sinhua was given in 1920 by the Japanese when the Sinhua Prefecture of Tainan State was established.

http://web1.tainan.gov.tw/english/CP/11813/Sinhua-1.aspx

Map (See letter W):

http://web1.tainan.gov.tw/english/CP/11813/index.aspx

It makes sense that this gun could somehow be connected to Taiwan, but that would mean that it might not have been made until after 1920 with some Japanese influence a possibility.
Does the name Xinhua have any other meaning, like as a family name?
Maybe a Japanese gun collector would be interested in buying it? :rolleyes:

See "Japanese Rule":

Imperial Japan had sought to control Taiwan since 1592....

The Japanese were instrumental in the industrialization of the island...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan

[pksu]

Thank you.arcticap,You suggestion is very very important.

I think the first suggestion is possibly.Holand used English and they came to Taiwan in 1622.In their occupation period they created a lot of weapons.They have killed a large number of deer for the deerskin.But "xinhua" in TaiWan is a new name from 1920.It called "TAVOCAN" in early period.Is it a gun made in 1900's?I think it's much more early.

[arcticap]

The name "Xinhua" may have been in common use by the Japanese much earlier than the official name change. Maybe it even has a meaning in Japanese, but for sure this is an important city with a long history.
I just can't see the name "Xinhua" not having some significance especially in those early days when it was not in common usage like it is today.
I understand that there are many language dialects and words and names may have different meanings.
But in the end "Xinhua" must mean something in some language besides being just a trade name.
The Japanese were fighting wars there.
I find it difficult to understand why the word "Xinhua" is used in China today and given to a such a large & important news agency. I like the name but where does it come from? I guess that it has become just a name, now just another Chinese name. But back then it was only the name of a city.
And for some reason the English writing was added to make the gun more salable to English speaking people who had a presence in China at the time.
In this time period, I think that many exotic & tropical birds were still being shot for their colorful feathers to decorate hats, even military hats. :)

http://www.geocities.com/felicitax/Hats.htm

Fortunes were paid by rich individuals for exotic feathered hats. Gorgeous feathered hats could command as much as £100 in the early Edwardian era. The Edwardians were masters in the art of excess and the flamboyant hats of the era are a clear example of this.
At one point whole stuffed birds were used to decorate hats, but as the new more enlightened century emerged, protests were voiced. In America the Audubon society expressed concern and in England the RSPB (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds) campaigned for ecological understanding.

http://www.fashion-era.com/hats-hair/hats_hair_1_wearing_hats_fashion_history.htm#Plumassiers

[dev_null]

"Maybe it even has a meaning in Japanese"

Nope. There are no syllables in Japanese equivalent to Xin/Hsin + Hua. Closest would be しんふあ　 -- shinfua -- but there's no such word in Japanese.

[4V50 Gary]

I think the gun was made either in Pakistan or somewhere in China. The Chinese were known to copy guns and mark them as if they were made elsewhere. Copies ranged from good to primitive. The engraving on the depicted gun has been crudely executed. The bordering rings were all stamped and not engraved.

If a sliver of wood falls out, a university may be able to determine the tree it came from and if that's done, the national origin of the gun.

[pksu]

Today when I take the lift,I find the sign of three circle.It's the Company of ThyssenKrupp Elevator.It's Germany lift company.The sign is Similar to this gun.Is there something Associated?

[arcticap]

No, that's more of a corporation logo or commercial trademark. Here's another compnay logo with 3 rings:

http://www.liv.ac.uk/~spmr02/rings/beer_mat2.jpg

If you click on the PDF below and go to page 22, you will see a Spanish proof mark with 3 circles. Every country's proof house has their own markings.

That's why I thought that the 3 circles on your resembles a proof mark.

On page 10 it shows that Belgium uses a single circle as a proof mark for some devices.

That could mean that your gun has a proofmark or that the maker wanted it to look like a proofmark. Because the mark was used twice, it looks like it was meant to look like each barrel was individually proofed.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/hearings/20061004/imco/genco_en.pdf