PDA

View Full Version : College protection


gunner4391
August 4, 2009, 10:13 AM
Alright, so if you've commented on any of my other posts before then you know that I'm in college and am desperatly trying to think of some form of self defense. Now according to my college guide lines I can't have anything on campus or in my dorm that is a "conventional or non conventional" weapon, i.e knife, gun, bb gun, throwing stars, ax, etc. So, I've so far decided that a good wooden baseball bat and my set of golf clubs is about the most inconspicuous way for me to have some form of defense in my dorm, but what should I carry with me around campus? And please, I don't want a bunch of people saying don't carry anything because over the summer, there were 4 arrests on campus of guys walking around with guns threatening to kill people...if you're gunna say don't carry anything, then please just don't comment.

Brian Pfleuger
August 4, 2009, 10:17 AM
I won't say don't carry anything.....

but if you're limited to something that is not classified as "a conventional or unconventional" weapon then I would be at a loss for a weapon that could defend against a guy with a gun.


So, I'm not saying DON'T carry anything but I will say that anything that you CAN carry will be purposeless against a gun. You best option would seem like body armor but you'll have to forgive me if I consider that to be a little, uh, "extreme" on a college campus.

Niisan2309
August 4, 2009, 10:17 AM
I always carried pepper spray with me on campus when I was in school. Never had to use it, but it was comforting to have "something".

Now I wouldn't use it vs guys with guns, jmo..

Glenn E. Meyer
August 4, 2009, 10:32 AM
Pepper spray, substantial Surefire or similar. Learn Laptop-fu, the preferred impact weapon against rampages.

Take a combatives course.

See a gun, flee at top speed.

TailGator
August 4, 2009, 10:32 AM
You are experiencing the dichotomy of most college campuses. They enforce various no-weapons rules on students and faculty, but do not control access sufficiently to enforce it against visitors or even non-compliant members of the campus community.

If pepper spray is legal under their definition, then it is better than nothing, but otherwise Peetzakiller has it completely right. You are a sitting duck against someone with a gun. Four such arrests over the summer is alarming, but the solution for either you or the administration (other than the obvious withdrawal of rules preventing otherwise legal self defense, which may not be in the power of the school administration) escapes me. Amazing that some of the brightest people in our world can't learn from tragedies.

SwampYankee
August 4, 2009, 10:34 AM
I won't say don't carry anything, I will say that you should transfer to a better school. There are 4,000 colleges and universities in the US. 99% of them don't have crazy men running around and brandishing guns during the summer. Or even during the academic semesters.

jjyergler
August 4, 2009, 10:52 AM
"conventional or non conventional"

First, this definition is so vague that it could NEVER, EVER, hold up. Your baseball bat, golf clubs, a rock, a bottle that could be broken, pepper spray, a dining facility tray, a folding chair (see WWE shows), jewelery, just about anything could be classified as a "non-conventional" weapon. If there is a school of law on campus, just take that to one of their school's own professors. He will laugh, because "non-conventional" weapon makes everything you can think of illegal.

Second, what is the punishment? Is this a state school with campus police that are actual police, or is this a private school or community college with an old guy in a golf cart as the security force. Can you be dismissed from the school? Can you be arrested? At my college, a similar ban was in force, but it was administrative punishment, i.e. you can't play intramural sports and could get kicked out of the dorms, etc.

Third, know your area; if this is a big, liberal school, remember they can't search without probable cause. I am a grad student, and I carry my Leatherman tool every day. There is no reason anyone will search me, so I just don't say anything. Kicking a student out for carrying a pocketknife, even a significant one, would be a PR nightmare in Florida (except maybee UM). Seriously, at the University of North Florida, UF, FSU, I just don't see it.

Fourth, use their own weapons against them. Complain to the department of education, threaten to sue them for not ensuring your safety. Speak to the administration, use the threat of the suit to get better security or relaxation of the rule. Write your congressman or state legislator, send copies to the administration. Let them know that you will not rest until they provide a safe environment. Every other group protests and threatens to get their concerns heard, use the tactics that have proven so successful (peace studies, women's programs, African-American studies, Latino/Chicano studies, GLBT studies and protections, etc.).


Fifth, use your friends, contact FIRE, a group concerned with on campus issues, organize a group of like minded students to engage in the activities in the above paragraph. Organize a "non-conventional weapon" day, where students bring "non-conventional weapons" to class (for example, four big rings on one hand, hang a 4D cell Mag-Lite on your backpack, get creative).

Colleges are the perfect Marxist environments. Hordes of ignorant powerless masses are at the whim of a few elite, out of touch, ivory tower people who produce nothing and only consume the fruit of other's labor. We who attend universities are at the heart of the struggle for the soul of our nation and culture.

In the meantime, get a potent Pepper Spray and a good assisted opening knife. :D

#18indycolts
August 4, 2009, 10:52 AM
I can't have anything on campus or in my dorm that is a "conventional or non conventional" weapon,

So, I've so far decided that a good wooden baseball bat and my set of golf clubs

Honestly, pay the xtra $$ and get an aluminum bat, lighter and stronger than wood...since you can't carry a "true" weapon, just lug your golf bag around.

jjyergler
August 4, 2009, 11:05 AM
Amazing that some of the brightest people in our world can't learn from tragedies.

You are assuming that they want to learn or care. For most university administrators, the point is to propagandize and control. A few students dead every once in a while are acceptable losses. A free and independant society with responsible, self-aware citizens is a far mor horrible concept than the occasional massacre.

Remember, they are at heart, socialists. If anything, the occasional massacre is useful to their ends. I guarantee, across this nation, there were those who were secretly gratified to hear of Columbine, Va Tech, and Paducah.

I was at Arkansas State University in Jonesboro at the time of the shootings. I was playing soccer behind the library. I heard the sirens and knew people who lost family members. I know there were people who thought "finally, maybee these rednecks will learn that guns kill people." I know professors by name that felt that the loss of a couple kids that they didn't know was worth the fact that more people might support gun control.

I know that most people will disagree with me, but you know, if you are willing to face the truth, that I am right.

A_McDougal
August 4, 2009, 11:27 AM
First - is it illegal to have a weapon, or just a violation of school policy? Is violating school policy a crime, or just against their rules? The rules get broken all the time, and kids get punished or not punished (for example, cheating, boys in the girl's dorm past hours, fraud in the student election, teacher cancels class and deprives you of the education you paid for, etc.).

I'll guess the 'conventional or unconventional' means it is a school rule; state and local laws tend to be written using somewhat different language (i.e. 'dangerous weapon'.

Second, in my state, the law is fairly clear that a pocket knife is not a dangerous weapon. If it folds, is sharp only only one side of the blade, and the handle does not have a button for quick opening, it is not a conventional or conventional weapon. It is a tool, like your fist/car/book, that you would use to protect yourself if you didn't have anything better. Likewise, a long gun is a hunting or sporting tool, not a dangerous weapon. Handguns and short barreled rifles & shotguns are considered dangerous weapons.

If it were legal for me to carry, and the school just didn't like it, I'd carry. If the school had the legal right to search my dorm room, I'd move off campus. Metal detectors - well, they may be a pragmatic challenge (don't break the law, but if you aren't legally obligated to be disarmed, look for a legal path forward).

That said, if you have a bat, have a mitt and a ball too. Nobody plays ball with just the bat. If you have golf clubs, have the other accoutrements.

If you don't want to carry a knife, think about a multitool that happens to have a blade. If you want an excuse to carry a knife, start a woodworking club on campus.

In the olden days, kids used to carry a roll of quarters (or pennies if their hands were small) to wrap their fingers around when they punched (a poor man's brass knuckles, gloves recommended).

Lots of bicyclists kept their lock and chain strategically available. An effective improvised weapon.

austinjking
August 4, 2009, 11:29 AM
But I carry a Surefire flashlight when I walk the dog late at night. It's helped before with illuminating my presence to cars and others as well as discouraging a few strays. I'm not 21 yet and I won't open carry a rifle.
I have no reason to believe that the debate for concealed carry on campus has subsided, perhaps when the super heavy issues in Congress run their course, law abiding citizens will be allowed to protect ourselves.
The best defense is to avoid shady situations if you can, and of course be prepared. Is there a self defense course taught nearby like a martial art?

firespectrum
August 4, 2009, 11:59 AM
We do not allow folks to announce they will break laws are or consider it.

Just for posters info - doing that can lead to an instant ban but we try to be gentle to folks.

Complaining about this and not seeing our point - leads to a ban rather quickly

GEM

Brian Pfleuger
August 4, 2009, 12:02 PM
Comment on proposed law breaking - so just me cleaning up.

firespectrum
August 4, 2009, 12:11 PM
Comment on proposed law breaking - so just me cleaning up.

ZeSpectre
August 4, 2009, 12:38 PM
The "Mini-Maglite" was developed to give Kubotan trained persons a "secret" weapon to use in places where the Kubotan was banned. (Though how you ban a small stick is just beyond me).

This may not help you if the other person is armed with a gun.

The biggest thing needed is well trained situational awareness. This includes being aware of multiple exits from any situation you might be in.

Uncle Billy
August 4, 2009, 12:42 PM
If you live in New York "It is a crime to possess any rifle, shotgun or handgun in or upon the building or grounds of any school, college or university in the state without the written permission of the institution." This applies to students, administrators, faculty and staff- everyone, even if they have a CCW, New York being maybe the most difficult state to get a CCW permit. So in New York, if you have a CCW and can convince the campus authorities, you will be permitted to CC. Lotsa luck.

College administrators aren't in favor of students carrying guns on campus because they can't be confident that they'd do so responsibly, and almost everyone else there agrees. They all live day-to-day with the nearly unanimous drinking binges and the resulting fights and brawls; a huge potential, often realized for hormone-driven disputes and crimes; the drug culture (buyers and sellers) that pervades nearly every campus; the social immaturity and lack of a sense of responsibility and self-discipline of way too many students.

A campus is a concentration of kids that are vulnerable, immature, and all too often without self-discipline. This makes them a target for all sorts of criminal activity from outside the campus, and vulnerable to the disasters they themselves can and often do create on the inside. Allowing guns to be added into that pile of dynamite would be irresponsible indeed.

And even if armed students were okay with those in authority, they fully understand it wouldn't be okay with the parents of students, most of whom aren't interested in sending their kids to an armed camp. If such IS okay with parents, then they should send their kids to basic training in a DOD-sponsored "educational institution". That would probably be a better choice for every kid, at least for a year or two, but that's for a different forum than this.

I worked 35 years on a campus, and if I thought many of the students were carrying guns I'd have taken a job elsewhere.

ZeSpectre
August 4, 2009, 12:49 PM
>self redacted< (off topic comment removed)

Distortion
August 4, 2009, 12:58 PM
You need to look at the state laws (as do I). I currently work at a state-run institution of higher education. In my state (Louisiana) it is a felony to possess a firearm in a firearm-free zone, which are schools, government buildings, court buildings, and a few other areas. I am certain that no exceptions are available right now in Louisiana for CCW holders, as there is a bill in the current legislative session which would allow CCW holders to carry on college campuses (with permission I'm sure).

Glenn E. Meyer
August 4, 2009, 01:53 PM
Since I'm in the business and know the issue very well - the gun world may propose it is socialism or sheep like attitudes. This may well be true for some of the faculty.

However - at the administrative level - the most powerful force is perceived liability to the institution. It is not ideology. Even in conservative major institutions, conservative boards and administrators have determined that student carry may be more of a potential financial risk if it goes awry than handling a massacre.

It is exactly the same analysis why businesses (run by conservative supposedly execs and boards) fought tooth and nail against parking lot laws. Just the money.

Big heads up - administrators are not concerned about individuals but the health of the institution.

kokopelli
August 4, 2009, 02:03 PM
How about one of those 'CIA letter openers'? It's plastic -no metal detector set-offs, and it's not a weapon.
If that is even a no-go, get yourself a good metal ink pen with a sharp point, carry it in your hand while walking on campus or in your pocket accessible, not in your backpack.
Heck a number 2 pencil can be an effective weapon if you know what your doing.

Farmland
August 4, 2009, 02:58 PM
I would say carry common sense. That is the best weapon you can legally carry on campus. Then use your other weapons you carry, your legs.

If the campus is such that you are in fear for your life, since you feel the need to carry a gun then transfer.

Now legal self defense weapons could be as simple as a pen or pencil. Of course pepper spray can give you a little distance safety. A couple of pool balls could offer the same provided you can throw. I guess a baseball could work as well.

Books can be deadly at close quarters. Keys between the knuckles have been used in place of brass knuckles.

The list can include combs, eye glasses etc-etc.

Hank15
August 4, 2009, 03:28 PM
Best I can think of is the following:

-Surefire flashlights, or any flashlight over 80 lumens with or without a crenelated bezel.

-A good pair of "combat" gloves, preferably equipped with kevlar and hard knuckles (usually made of polymer or plastic).

-One of those "tactical" pens made by cold steel or surefire

-A necklace with a pendant that's heavy enough to be swung.

That's all I can think of. Check before you carry any of these though; make sure they comply with your school's rules, policy, etc.

Sefner
August 4, 2009, 04:07 PM
This being the tactics board, I'm sure we are all aware that using a knife in the event of a SD situation is a great way to get stabbed. You'd be better off with batons (if they are legal, in most states they aren't), kobutons, etc etc. Go for the joints.

+1 to checking your rules etc, although the fact that you're in a dorm suggests that you're in a pretty big school which is sometimes treated as a municipality (like it is at my university) and thus given the power to create their own laws.

BigDaddy
August 4, 2009, 05:01 PM
+1 for pepper spray. At least a 2 oz or 4 oz can. Also you can carry something to use as a "blunt trauma inducer" that is not a weapon per se. Spray the creep then knock him over the head. Works great.

It's not worth getting caught with a weapon and getting arrested by campus police (in a state school they are real police), and be kicked out of school.

--Dave

KLRANGL
August 4, 2009, 06:17 PM
Let my start off by saying I do not advocate breaking any laws, period...
But many anti "weapon" rules at school are just that, rules. As Glenn stated earlier, that rule is more for liability than anything else, and has no legal bearing what so ever (in my state, you better check your own). That is why I, contrary to school rules, carry a 3inch folder (a 3inch folder being the largest concealed carry knife allowed in VA). Now the interesting point that I am trying to make, is that this rule is a rule on paper only, and like most Virginia schools I know of, never enforced. In fact, many of my fellow engineering students openly carry their folder knives. I even have acquaintances in the campus police department and deans office that have seen me with mine, and think nothing of it. Take that for what you will...

That said, a knife is a distant last place in terms of self defense (its main use is as a utility knife). My flashlight, legs, and above all my brain, are the forefront of my campus self defense plan.

I'm sure we are all aware that using a knife in the event of a SD situation is a great way to get stabbed.
I was not aware of this. I do know that getting into a knife fight is a guaranteed way of getting cut/stabbed. Please explain...

Tucker 1371
August 4, 2009, 06:34 PM
Hey, I'm in the same boat as you. In Georgia there is a law that makes it a felony to posess a firearm within 1000ft of a college campus. Unfortunately I don't have a car and the only apartment option I had outside of that radius was across a major highway, not exactly what you want to cross on a bike on a busy morning. In addition to the law the apartment community I just signed a lease for has a no weapons policy (edit: I actually haven't verified that my apartment is within the 1k ft radius but I plan to).

For defense in the apartment or dorm I think a baseball bat is an excellent idea. A taser like the ones being issued to police would be great as well but I think that might be pushing the rules just a bit.

I personally don't give a rip about my apartment complex's rule, it's the college and the state of Georgia's laws that I worry about because breaking those can lead to you being expelled and/or losing your gun rights. If you live in an on-campus dorm don't even consider breaking whatever rules they have in place because that will land you in major hot water.

In an apartment, if the room inspectors are ***holes and they actually find your guns, the worst that could happen is you are evicted and have to finish the semester living with a friend. Usually I get to know the employees of the community and they don't give me too hard a time about anything.

If you're confronted by someone with a gun on campus your best bet is to either comply or run like hell. I carry a small Texas Wildcat boot knife under my shirt in a leather sheath pretty much everywhere I go, even on campus. You could do this and probably slide by without any fuss, but when TSHTF and the other guy has a gun it probably won't do you a whole lot of good, against unarmed people (ie a mugging) it should do alright.

Dave R
August 4, 2009, 06:40 PM
I guess I'm the first to suggest martial arts. Better than nothing. And lots of side benefits in terms of physical fitness.

(This from a 50+ guy who can't box.)

Tucker 1371
August 4, 2009, 06:59 PM
+1 on the martial arts but it takes A LONG time and a lot of learning the hard way to get good at it. Once you've been doing it about 3 years things begin to click and the stuff you've been practicing becomes instinct and learning new moves takes less time. But until you have been doing it for at least a year it's probably best not to rely very heavily on it.

gunner4391
August 5, 2009, 01:18 AM
Alright guys thanks a lot for the input, but heres the thing...it's not only my campus' rules, but it's also the states rules and I'm required to live on campus for my first year, so I absolutley cannot get kicked out of my dorm. I'm going to USF by the way, but about the 4 arrests, apparently 2 were suspected threats, one was a student who decided to CC without a permit on campus, and one was a kid that actually got arrested with a gun because he intended to hurt someone. I don't know if many of you know, but students get text messages now to report incidents, but they don't tell you much. I like the idea about the bike lock, but again, I WOULD NEVER BRING A GUN ON CAMPUS!!! And pepper spray, brass knuckles, and tasers are pushin the line a little too much for me. I really just want to graduate, and for those of you who suggested leaving this college, I have a full ride to USF. Also, look around, theres a lot more arrests from aggrivated kids on campus then you know, my college isn't the worst out there by far. So thank you for the creative ideas, and keep 'em coming if you got any new ones.

azredhawk44
August 5, 2009, 01:31 AM
And pepper spray, brass knuckles, and tasers are pushin the line a little too much for me.

That sounds like you don't take any realistic non-gun option seriously.

[self-redacted comment on participating in scofflaw-activities], no pepper spray or mace, no alternate weapon. No time to learn weaponless self defense.

There's nothing left short of hiring body guards who have the above mentioned tools or skills.

One more option, is a big-ass knife. If you're an outdoorsey type that does backpacking, get a Buck T-119 or similar large knife. If you're not known to go backpacking, get a 6" butcher's knife. Either way, they are "tools" rather than weapons.

pacerdude
August 5, 2009, 01:34 AM
I go to UGA, and they dont allow guns or knives longer than 2 inches or anything that could be a weapon on campus. I follow the rules to a tee, for one thing the campus police are real police. Its not worth ruining your college education over a knife or some other item trying to navigate around a rule. Like others have said, use common sense and get a bat for your dorm.

BlackFeather
August 5, 2009, 01:54 AM
As a martial artist I would say its a good idea but yet again it takes lots of time... I have been doing it for almost 9 years and I still screw up...alot... but I have noticed that it has become utter instinct... weapons though... they take as much training and against a gun even I wouldnt suggest trying that unless its under my terms... (I.E. dark in my house with me behind him holding a katana about to cut him in half.) but anything is a weapon... small crescent wrench as a kubotan for hitting soft spots... rope, belt, or scarf as a sarong style weapon for wrapping hands and disarming against knives... canes work well for both striking and grapples... spur of the moment really... in kung fu we learned to use a single person bench as a weapon... there are sap gloves that you can find or any glove with a hard back side... not legal im sure.... I sometimes do the old gang banger/biker trick and have a flag bandana in my back pocket with something hard and heavy on one end... carying anything that would be more effective is hard... a friend carried her knife always on campus at a christian college... I dont blame her... belt with a heavy buckle... I could go on with situational weapons but I shouldnt... you need training and street smarts mostly... I have had many friends even family put me in bad situations because they didnt have the street smarts to know what was going on...

BlackFeather
August 5, 2009, 02:15 AM
One was when I was visiting my mother and her friends boyfriend is a weed dealer... well she wanted to go see her friend knowing what was going on... we get there and there are cameras on outside that werent there before... we knock and I see the blinds flutter before the guy opens the door. he has a 9mm on his waist with a spare mag in his pocket... thats when I asked what was going on... I gues the girls father bought drugs from some mexican mob dealers... he was supposed to sell it but he took them instead... they were making threats earlier... both sides are armed... I had a folding knife...

The second was when a couple of kids I knew were at the park and I was going through they started talking to me so I decided to talk with them for a bit... they are like maybe 13-17... well a couple of them were high and being calm until they were joking around and yelling at someone they could hear from across the creek... and he cussed at them so they responded... well he came across the creek and saw only me... being nice I stood my ground so he wouldnt go after them... he yelled at me and litereally said "you wanna get knifed" as he was searching his pockets... I had my hand on my hip near my knife (which wouldnt fit in my pocket:cool:) I just stood there and when he could hear me speak calmly I said "calm down. that wasnt me, that was two high 12 and 13 year old kids" (lying slightly) and I diffused the situation... its all in the words and body language...

grey sky
August 5, 2009, 03:13 AM
A stout cane is an orthopedic devise not a weapon at all. All wood no restrictions. Excuse of a bum knee if needed.

MauiDoc
August 5, 2009, 03:14 AM
Hit 'im with your hat!

http://www.trueswords.com/extreme-black-self-defense-p-4953.html

He'll never see it comin'!:D

BillCA
August 5, 2009, 06:42 AM
Here's one option no one has mentioned...
A walking stick or cane. Who's to say that your knee or ankle isn't bothering you this week? This one is from Cold Steel (http://www.coldsteel.com/citystick.html).

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/csstoreonline/big-citystick91stg.jpg

If that's too expensive, their Walkabout Stick is less expensive. I have one made from an African hardwood that's quite tough as well as attractive.
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/csstoreonline_2064_29990564

One does not use this simply as a club. There are some simple techniques that can be used to make it an effective weapon and one that and fend off a knife-wielding attacker.

Uncle Billy
August 5, 2009, 07:19 AM
KRLANGL:

Seems to me that the first time you pull your knife in an altercation, you'll be in trouble with the school authorities, and if you actually injure someone with it on campus, seems to me you've opened yourself to a charge of assault with an illegal deadly weapon. You might be able to beat the assault charge, but having the illegal knife in the first place is sure to get you kicked out of the college no matter what the disposition of any other charges. Read Dr. Meyer again and see if what he says could apply to you and your campus. Remember Bernard Goetz? He was found not guilty for shooting 4 muggers who were accosting him and seriously injuring them, but was sentenced to a year since it wasn't legal for him to have the weapon he used.

Seems to me that if "rules are just rules" to you, you're on your way to some pretty thick difficulties. I don't remember any cases wherein someone who thought the rules didn't apply to them came out okay when that attitude led them to come sideways with people in authority with the duty to enforce the rules, especially in a case where the reputations of those charged with enforcement are at stake for having let the rules slide.

Sefner
August 5, 2009, 07:53 AM
Seems to me that the first time you pull your knife in an altercation, you'll be in trouble with the school authorities, and if you actually injure someone with it on campus, seems to me you've opened yourself to a charge of assault with an illegal deadly weapon. You might be able to beat the assault charge, but having the illegal knife in the first place is sure to get you kicked out of the college no matter what the disposition of any other charges. Read Dr. Meyer again and see if what he says could apply to you and your campus. Remember Bernard Goetz? He was found not guilty for shooting 4 muggers who were accosting him and seriously injuring them, but was sentenced to a year since it wasn't legal for him to have the weapon he used.

This. And to explain my previous knife comment, pulling a knife on someone in a SD situation results pretty much in two things: them pulling a knife or you having to stab them. If they pull a knife, a knife fight ensues and you WILL get cut. If you have to stab them, you have a knife in the mix of a wrestling match over the knife. Almost impossible not to nick yourself. Obviously there are a very few cases (sneaking up behind someone etc) in which a knife might be useful, but imagine defending a sneak-up throat slit (or any stabbing defense) to a jury...

Sefner
August 5, 2009, 08:41 AM
Found the picture I was looking for:

http://www.rkba.org/research/suter/med-lit/g13.gif

Bud Helms
August 5, 2009, 08:59 AM
... I will say that anything that you CAN carry will be purposeless against a gun

Not so, unless you have decided not to use that weapon between your ears. But there is always more than one option.

KLRANGL
August 5, 2009, 02:04 PM
Seems to me that the first time you pull your knife in an altercation, you'll be in trouble with the school authorities, and if you actually injure someone with it on campus, seems to me you've opened yourself to a charge of assault with an illegal deadly weapon. You might be able to beat the assault charge, but having the illegal knife in the first place is sure to get you kicked out of the college no matter what the disposition of any other charges. Read Dr. Meyer again and see if what he says could apply to you and your campus. Remember Bernard Goetz? He was found not guilty for shooting 4 muggers who were accosting him and seriously injuring them, but was sentenced to a year since it wasn't legal for him to have the weapon he used.
There is nothing illegal about me carrying a knife... If I used it to defend myself, could they kick me out of school? Yes they could, but that's fine since the only way I would ever use it is as a last ditch effort. Assuming I cant avoid the situation in the first place, I'd rather blind the attackers and run, not use a knife. That was a very interesting picture that Sefner posted, which just furthers my assertion that a knife is not what you want, and only to be used as a last resort...
You must have missed the part where I said I carry a knife for its utility purposes...

Seems to me that if "rules are just rules" to you, you're on your way to some pretty thick difficulties. I don't remember any cases wherein someone who thought the rules didn't apply to them came out okay when that attitude led them to come sideways with people in authority with the duty to enforce the rules, especially in a case where the reputations of those charged with enforcement are at stake for having let the rules slide
I guess you missed my whole point then...

I do have a confession to make though. I re-read the code and its not against the rules to carry a 3inch folder at my school. “Weapons,” means knives (other than knives used for domestic purposes, pen or folding
knives with blades less than three inches in length, and box cutters, and utility knives kept
or carried for use in accordance with the purpose intended by the original seller)
The code was updated at the end of last year, so I must have either been omitted years past, or I must have just missed it...

sakeneko
August 5, 2009, 04:44 PM
It's been a LONG time since I was living on campus at a college, and at that time I didn't feel a need for a weapon to protect myself. Nowadays I think I would check on both the campus's policies about carry on campus, and the crime rate in the area. If carry was not permitted, and the violent crime rate on campus or in the area was significantly higher than average (unfortunately often the case with urban college campuses), I would probably go to a different college or university. I'd probably also live off campus if they allowed carry, but didn't allow guns in the dorms.

Although in extreme circumstances I can see myself breaking rules or violating the law, this wouldn't qualify. First, I can choose whether or not to attend a particular college or university, and whether to live on or off campus. I don't feel that it's appropriate to ignore the wishes of an institution when you can choose not to be there.

Second, obeying the rules doesn't mean being a sheep. My husband and I recently wanted to try out a Teppan restaurant in downtown Reno. This restaurant is in Harrah's casino and you can't get inside without going through Harrah's. When we got there, we saw posted signs stating that guns were not allowed, signs that explicitly said "even to licensed CCW carriers." So we walked away, and I phoned the restaurant and cancelled our reservations, telling them why and that we would be unable to eat there as long as they did not unlock their street door and/or Harrah's Casino didn't change their policy.

I bet that got talked about. :-)

BlackFeather
August 5, 2009, 05:18 PM
Here's one option no one has mentioned... wrong... that was one of the many I said... and I also metioned that it is incredibly useful for strikes and even grapples though proper traing is needed as in all things... as a note a wooden cane is better then a metal one and hardwood can shatter... so if you hit them and it splinters it can suck for the both of you...

curt.45
August 5, 2009, 06:52 PM
College protection

I miss the good old days when "College protection" meant you had a 12 pack of condoms.

KLRANGL
August 5, 2009, 08:05 PM
I miss the good old days when "College protection" meant you had a 12 pack of condoms.
Dont worry, they still do ;)
But this is a gun forum... what do you expect?

BlackFeather
August 5, 2009, 08:30 PM
http://www.survivalistboards.com/


not so bad of a site... very similar to here in my opinion...

Ares
August 5, 2009, 10:39 PM
How bout a skateboard. It wouldnt stick out much, and if you cant ride it just carry it. I see people carrying them all the time. I guess it isnt for defensive purposes though. Metal trucks can be pretty devastating.

kozak6
August 6, 2009, 12:39 AM
I vote bulletproof backpack and a good pair of running shoes.

Ares
August 6, 2009, 12:46 AM
I vote bulletproof backpack and a good pair of running shoes.
You could slide some rifle plates in the laptop section of a backpack.

BlackFeather
August 6, 2009, 01:25 AM
yes... and a level II vest is only 200 or less... if you are lucky...

Sixer
August 6, 2009, 01:50 AM
whoa, whoa... hold up. Are we seriously talking bullet proof bacpacks here? Are you attending school in the Middle East? Might as well strap on a ballistic helmet when you leave the dorms while youre at it :)

Seriously though, I graduated from college not too long ago and never owned a single firearm until I was done. College is a place to have fun, meet girls, and maybe even get an education! Stop worrying about what weapons you can carry. Worry more about getting that girls number, or studying for that test. I'm not saying that you shouldn't stay alert and aware of your surroundings... but if youre sitting in class all day imagining an armed BG breaking through the door, you are LIKELY wasting mental energy.

Of course anything is possible, and it is good to be prepared. But unless youre willing to enroll in online classes and take them from an under ground bunker...there are only so many things you can control.

Uncle Billy
August 6, 2009, 07:56 AM
KLRANGL:

You said this in your original post:

"That is why I, contrary to school rules, carry a 3inch folder (a 3inch folder being the largest concealed carry knife allowed in VA). Now the interesting point that I am trying to make, is that this rule is a rule on paper only, and like most Virginia schools I know of, never enforced. In fact, many of my fellow engineering students openly carry their folder knives. I even have acquaintances in the campus police department and deans office that have seen me with mine, and think nothing of it. Take that for what you will..."

Which is why I said this:

"Seems to me that if "rules are just rules" to you, you're on your way to some pretty thick difficulties. I don't remember any cases wherein someone who thought the rules didn't apply to them came out okay when that attitude led them to come sideways with people in authority with the duty to enforce the rules, especially in a case where the reputations of those charged with enforcement are at stake for having let the rules slide."

My point was that you were carrying a knife which you thought was against the rules, and apparently had what seemed to me to be an imprudent attitude about it. An unenforced rule or law is not the same as immunity for having broken it. If you carry a weapon that breaks the rules but no one in authority seems to care, they WILL care if you hurt someone with it and then will they apply the consequences for breaking the rule.

It seems to me that if one's fear of being attacked mandates being armed wherever one goes, then in order to stay out of legal troubles, one must seek places where that's legit and avoid places where it isn't, which excludes most campuses. That mandate sort of limits one's range, and that fear, when taken to extremes has one permanently behind a locked door with a cocked and locked shotgun on their lap. Not a pretty picture.

If carrying a weapon is primarily involved with one's ego needs or their need for external reassurance that they really do possess "manly power" and having a weapon meets that need, then it seems to me that self-confidence is missing and insecurity reigns. The solution is in attaining some maturity and/or some counseling. Meanwhile the weapons ought to remain on a shelf at home, for the good of all.

Just my $.02.

gunner4391
August 6, 2009, 11:28 AM
mods you can close this down, not many people are actually answering the question anymore and I'm gettting a lot of the same answers

markj
August 6, 2009, 03:23 PM
When I was in college, proper protection meant a ready supply of the product trojan man sells :)

On the campus I work at we have retired LEO on patrol 24/7 and yep they are armed. My campus is in North Omaha a very bad place at time. I can say we have had 30 or so shootings in this area in the last 6 months. Robberies in the day time just blocks away. So we take security very seriously. It would be bad if a student was seen with a handgun or long knife, the security would probably go after that student and it may end badly.

BillCA
August 6, 2009, 08:16 PM
Uncle Billy,

So you opined on the person who desires to be armed out of fear of attack and out of an egocentric need for "manly power".

But those are quite different reasons than simply being prepared and/or being armed because you know you cannot engage in a serious fight or effectively flee. And preparedness comes by studying the crime rates of the campus and surrounding areas.

While schools remain generally safe, there are sufficient incidents every year that show us that a campus is not always a safe haven from violent crime. If any particular campus had a higher incidence of rapes, I would not be seriously concerned that a female student was carrying a folding knife a mere 1-inch too long. Or carrying a stun gun in her purse.

Don't be so quick to categorize someone's desire to be armed with bare fear or the desire to make up for a lack of testicular fortitude.

JED1177
August 6, 2009, 08:38 PM
I remember a college girl who was "always" on her way to do laundry....small spray/squirt bottle of bleach...you know, for the "tough" stains.

Only problem for a guy is that everyone knows college guys never wash their clothes, so there goes your "laundry" defense.

One of our "geeks" always carried his damn (big) snake with him everywhere. No one ever wanted any part of that thing. To this day, don't know what type it was, but it hissed alot.

Uncle Billy
August 7, 2009, 09:03 AM
BILLCA wrote:

"Uncle Billy
... Don't be so quick to categorize someone's desire to be armed with bare fear or the desire to make up for a lack of testicular fortitude."

I didn't. I wrote "if" in front of each of those possibilities.

As we all know, there are a multitude of legal, ethical and practical aspects of being armed that make an armed "civilian" vulnerable to serious difficulties even before he takes the weapon out, and if he actually uses it the repercussions can become life-altering (and even life-ending) for himself and others. Arming one's self comes with heavy consequences and heavy responsibilities, and presents heavy vulnerabilities. Doing so ought to be filtered through an objective reasoning process that considers the realistic potential for being in an unavoidable situation that has no other possible solution than to use a deadly weapon. If such situations are realistically and certainly inevitable, then yes, but if they aren't, then asking why do it is a sensible question.

The "ifs" I wrote about seem to me to be insufficient reasons to carry a weapon if they are the central impetus for doing so; I meant what I wrote to suggest taking a critical, objective look at "why" to see if they might apply.

There are a lot of reasons why someone would seek to carry a weapon that are really about something other than the probability of actually having to use one in a violent defensive situation. I don't think that "for the fun of it" or "because I can" or "because it makes me feel I'm a man, a feeling I can't achieve otherwise" or "because violent attack on me is right around the next corner" or "because of Columbine and Virginia Tech and others" are sufficient reasons to take on all that comes with carrying a weapon, even legal ones and especially ones that one thinks to be illegal. I worked for 35 years on an urban campus and never once found myself in a situation the campus police couldn't handle, which was a good thing because it's illegal to carry a gun on a campus here and I wouldn't break that law lest I become the one who gets arrested.

I have a CCW permit in New York, which is no easy place to get one. The circumstances that I encounter in the world around me are almost entirely without sufficient justification for carrying. Not zero, just not very often. I wrote somewhere on this forum about a confrontation I had with an unleashed Doberman that ran at me and my then 5 yr old son with its head down and teeth bared, a situation we had come close to before which prompted me to avail myself of my CCW permit. Otherwise I'm unavailable for any confrontation I can avoid by whatever legal means it takes. I can't outrun a Doberman and he won't listen to reason, so...

A_McDougal
August 7, 2009, 09:09 AM
Traveling in packs may be your best bet.
Avoid being alone outside, especially at night.

As a step down, sonic alarms (http://www.amazon.com/125db-Personal-Flashing-Window-Warning/dp/B000MONCWW/ref=pd_cp_hi_3)are effective against casual criminals

neon
August 7, 2009, 01:56 PM
Alright, so if you've commented on any of my other posts before then you know that I'm in college and am desperatly trying to think of some form of self defense. Now according to my college guide lines I can't have anything on campus or in my dorm that is a "conventional or non conventional" weapon, i.e knife, gun, bb gun, throwing stars, ax, etc. So, I've so far decided that a good wooden baseball bat and my set of golf clubs is about the most inconspicuous way for me to have some form of defense in my dorm, but what should I carry with me around campus? And please, I don't want a bunch of people saying don't carry anything because over the summer, there were 4 arrests on campus of guys walking around with guns threatening to kill people...if you're gunna say don't carry anything, then please just don't comment.

I would get some pepper spray. Fox Labs 5.3

BillCA
August 8, 2009, 02:17 AM
Uncle Billy,

Thanks for the illumination.

I can agree with some of your position. Circumstances vary of course. For myself, and probably more than a few others here, certain disabilities preclude rapid flight and/or getting physical with someone 20 or 30 years younger. And while "fear of attack" isn't a constant 24/7 thing, my preference is to be armed when & where I can, simply because I am not a prophet.

Agreement on points of psychological "ego boosting" reasons to carry. Disagreements on the points of "because I can" or "because it's my right" -- and because "a violent attack may be around the corner".

To carry is a right from our founding (currently very limited in many areas) but I would no sooner question you exercising that right than I would your right to a lawyer or to attend a different church.

I keep in touch with what's going on in my area so I know that violent crime occurs, despite it being one of the safer cities in the country. Within a 3 mile radius of home, just today, police responded to a man-with-a-gun call, an armed robbery, five "disturbances" involving weapons (3 knives, 1 bat and a shovel) a brandishing call at a restaurant and 2 assaults on senior citizens. Most any of these I might have stumbled into by chance, given their locations, which is why I prefer to be armed if possible. So I consider that "violent attack may be around the corner" not a mere possibility, but a probability between 5 and 50 percent.

Uncle Billy
August 8, 2009, 09:37 AM
BillCA-

I support the Second Amendment and firmly believe it to be an individual right, as is the right to self-defense by means other than guns. All I'm trying to say is that carrying a deadly weapon in exercise of those rights comes with big responsibilities and creates serious vulnerabilities legal and otherwise for those who do so, and I believe that prudence requires that those ought to be weighed against one's reasons for carrying such a weapon.

My intent was to suggest to the college student who began the thread that such prudence might be a benefit to him in deciding what he ought or ought not to do. College students are sometimes impetuous and don't always consider the consequences of their decisions, which all too often leads them to difficult, damaging situations they could have avoided had they used some critical thinking.

Nonetheless, the law allows anyone not disqualified to carry a weapon for whatever reason they want, or for no reason at all, and it's unilaterally up to them to decide. I suggest it might be worthwhile to think about all that's involved with that, but that too is optional. Unfortunately one of the most exercised freedoms we enjoy in the US is the freedom not to think, which results in a lot of negatives that could have been avoided. What I wrote was my small effort to point out that thinking about it objectively is probably a good idea.

gunner4391
August 8, 2009, 09:02 PM
Uncle Billy,

You have propostioned multiple times that I think about my situation objectivley. Unfortunatley, you have failed to do so on your part. If you were to suspect that you are going to be put in a situation where you could use and would want a weapon, are you telling me that you would leave it at home or go unarmed intentionally? My point is that it is illegal for me to carry a gun or "weapons" on campus. My question was what should I carry if I have restrictions on what I'm allowed to have. Daily items that I am almost required to bring with me yet can be used as weapons, such as the idea given about a bike lock or even investing in a "tactical" pen, were what I was looking for. I am not thinking of breaking a law or going into my school armed because its my right, if I was I don't think I would have posted this. Because I want to know what is a good last chance defense that I am allowed to have at school isn't my way to boost my ego, but a chance for me to be prepared if I am ever in that situation.

raimius
August 9, 2009, 01:53 AM
I would recommend a set of potential tools. Multiple tools can let you choose according to the situation. A nice knife, of the maximum allowed size (with training in how to use it), would be a good start. A quality, aluminum flashlight might also be a good idea. A metal pen might work. (I used to have a Zebra pen that was impressively sturdy, so you might not need to go looking for a "tactical pen.")

For inside a dorm, an aluminum bat is pretty serious. A lot of sporting/camping equipment can be good improvised weapons.
...or a hammer and screwdriver.

Uncle Billy,
Wise words for everyone to consider!

wally626
August 9, 2009, 07:45 AM
I would say that the best advise is to, first do not get drunk. Yes there is the occasional armed robber that will hit anybody they see alone, but they are most likely going to go after the drunk staggering down the street or a women alone. I have no statistics handy but I imagine most of the criminal behavior on campus, other than theft, is due to drunken people doing stupid things.

As far as concealed carry, most students could not carry anyway because they are not 21. I would like to see the campuses allow faculty and staff to carry with CWPs. it is kinda stupid that in VA I can conceal or open carry on a State University campus but the faculty cannot.

Uncle Billy
August 9, 2009, 08:57 AM
Gunner-
My first post to this thread was in response to a post, which was excised by Dr. Meyer, that suggested something illegal,. My second posts were an exchange with KLRANGL, the later ones were exchanges between BillCA and me. None were addressed to you directly, all were discussions that grew from what you asked at the outset.

You wrote, "... If you were to suspect that you are going to be put in a situation where you could use and would want a weapon, are you telling me that you would leave it at home or go unarmed intentionally?".

My answer is: No, I would not. I am reasonably clear about the magnitude of the obligations and responsibilities I take on when I leave my house armed (I have a CCW permit); these dissuade me from being armed unless I know of or can objectively predict a specific threat that there's a reasonable probability I'll face. My episode in the park with my son and the Doberman is such an example- my son and I went to the park every day for a walk among the trees and green things; about half the time this dog was allowed to run unleashed there, in defiance of a city ordinance. It would usually obey its master's voice, but not always if it had locked its focus on something, especially strangers. Ergo, my Walther under my jacket.

None of that applies to your question here since you asked precisely about a campus whereon you apparently can't carry anything that is in its first definition a weapon. So I'd begin with what objects I could reasonably carry as a student on a campus that could be used in a fracas to my benefit, and then practice with them in that role. Here's a lengthy list of what I've seen used over my career on a campus, in everyday close contact with students.

Carabiners of the right size might function in place of brass knuckles; a roll of quarters inside a fist add weight to punches; a cheap, stamped metal compass for drawing circles has a sharp point and holds well for use as a weapon; a long athletic sock with a rock that has some geological or aesthetic significance in the toe makes a reasonably good sap, a 100-level survey course in geology makes that and the presence of a rock hammer reasonable, one with a peen on one end of the head and a sharp pick on the other; a laptop carrying case with a piece of boilerplate in it makes a shield and a weapon; some of the tools associated with arts classes are sharp, pointed and easily handled; a set of chisels, an awl, and such tools are associated with an arts elective in woodworking; a metal pocket comb with an extended point on one end aids in good grooming; a flimsy bag of very fine sand or salt will temporarily blind an attacker if you can get it in his face; a voltmeter with metal-pointed probes, a long screwdriver, a heavy pair of electrician's pliers and/or an instant-on battery-powered soldering pencil go with a tech elective class in electronics, along with a "project in progress" in one's backpack that includes the circuitry of a flash unit found on disposable cameras which produces a few thousand volts and can be modified into a reasonable approximation of a Taser; a heavy pair of climbing boots with steel toes enhances one's kick and gives good exercise to one's legs (works up here in the north in the winter; not much use in Florida, probably); a drafting T-square, if strong enough, makes a good swinging weapon; a half-drunk glass bottle of soda on the outside of one's backpack is easily accessible; a dissecting kit that every freshman bio student has to buy has sharp things in it... I've seen all of these purposely carried as weapons, and not a few of them actually used, mostly by females who were the targets of sexual assault that came from the area the campus was in- a not-so-prosperous urban neighborhood with attention-getting crime statistics being a well kept secret by the administration. There were non-credit seminars and workshops offered on a self-help basis that dealt with these issues; seeking one out on your campus might prove fruitful.

Competent situational awareness, including escape routes, and a "Special Ops" perspective of evasion, escape and avoidance serve as effective tools as well, and I believe are the place to start when assembling a defensive capability.

Dannyl
August 10, 2009, 05:44 AM
HI,

I AM NOT advising you to break any laws. if carrying a concealed knife is against a law in your state, please ignore this post.

If the rules you mentioned are only college rules you may want to think of a leather belt with a buckle which is actually a well disguised knife, and can be pulled out very quickly. if you keep this info to yourself you could be carrying one all your life and no one else but you will know about it.

Go to this URL to see one such example www.belt-buckle-knife.com

I think that if you ever needed to use it to defend yourself, you would have a valid argument about why you broke a college-rule, and if the worst has to happen, you may need to move to another college, but not to a hospital.

They are available here from some stores and surely one can find them in the US.

With some practice it would give you at least one weapon in case you need one.

Just remember, do not bring a knife to a gun fight...

Brgds,
Danny

eclipsetactical
August 10, 2009, 06:50 AM
Either a police grade pepper spray gun or ZAP Blast Knuckles. 950,000 volts will usually do the trick in protecting yourself. However I bet that would fall under the unconventional weapon part. Maybe not though I would ask. I mean numerous ladies and men alike carry a stun gun. The Blast Knuckles are the best of the bunch providing a hard poly plastic knuckle to strike with as well as 950,000 volts that can be delivered upon striking your target.

If you want a set or info on them just shoot me a line I am a dealer for a company that carry's the ZAP Blast Knuckles as well as FOX Labs police grade pepper spray/tear gas guns and gernades. Although if you are living in a dorm I wouldnt recommend throwing a tear gas gernade you would have the whole dorm all screwed around.

Ben

BlackFeather
August 10, 2009, 03:33 PM
Another consideration is just as raimius said is get a small legal knife and get training though it wont help much against a gun it is still better than nothing... just remember there is a reason for different blade shapes... and inward curved blade is better for slashing vitals, a strong thick straight blade is better for stabbing, and my most commonly carried knife is a "tanto" style blade.... the reason for this is its strength and slashing/stabbing ability... the square like "kissaki" or english terms "the tip" is more effective at cutting through thick clothing, due to the almost double edged end... I cant find a picture suitable for a better description but look up the "Ka-Bar Fin Tanto Tip" the blade looks effective but not having held one I dont know how the grip feels... which is just as important in a knife as a gun...

illinoisbrassman
August 10, 2009, 04:37 PM
A good D cell maglite
A Ballpeen Hammer -- Hells Angels non-weapon of choice

Just a couple of thoughts

ILBM

Tuckahoe
August 10, 2009, 07:12 PM
The first thing you need to arm yourself with is awareness.
#1 Avoid trouble areas.
#2 Know when to leave. Things start getting loud, disturbance starts leave. Don't wait around to see a fight just leave the area. You do not need to be a witness.
#3 Sit as close to an exit as you can at all times.
#4 Watch the people around you.
#5 Screw the books if something happens drop everything and Run!
#6 If you believe you are being stalked tell your friends, campus police, school administration tell them all.
#7 Avoid being alone. Go with a friend or bunch of buddies.
#8 Never get intoxicated in a public place ever. A couple is enough. Keep your wits.
Weapons: Tennis racket, hockey stick, baseball bat, roll of quarters in a sock, cue ball in a bandana, can of oven cleaner Get creative. OC spray may be illegal but if it is allowed I would carry it too. 5.5% or higher.

Tuckahoe
August 10, 2009, 07:17 PM
Some members of motorcycle clubs carry a hammer due to legal reasons that prohibit them from weapons. You never know when something needs fixing.

weaponsuniverse
November 11, 2009, 09:11 AM
I suggest you keep brass knuckles (http://www.weapons-universe.com/Brass_Knuckles.shtml) for protection. You can either wear it to make your punch solid or throw it directly to your attacker to escape.

zukiphile
November 11, 2009, 10:48 AM
Gunner writes that there were four arrests for guys walking around with guns threatening to kill people.

The first step in deciding which weapon would be appropriate to meet this danger would be to envision each possible response notwithstanding limitations placed on you by the school administration. It isn't clear to me that a fellow known to have a gun saying he wants to kill people would entitle Gunner to use a deadly weapon of any kind.

Bob smoked my last cigarette last night. I'll kill him.

I don't think a reasonable person would conclude that Bob is entitled to employ deadly force over that sort of comment. It also sounds as if the administration is handling unruly individuals before anyone is hurt.

I would not argue that you've no rights of self defense, but it isn't clear to me that you are in any unreasonable danger and have a compelling reason to amend your agreement with the campus.

It is exactly the same analysis why businesses (run by conservative supposedly execs and boards) fought tooth and nail against parking lot laws. Just the money.

Big heads up - administrators are not concerned about individuals but the health of the institution.


One weapon no one has suggested is an attorney. They can be dangerous if handled improperly, can sometimes injure the user, and should never be pointed at anything you don't want to destroy. However they do grab peoples' attention in a way a student alone does not.

Kyo
November 11, 2009, 11:11 AM
honestly, my dad got my sister a stun gun in the form of a cell phone. a convincing one. she takes it wherever she goes, because more than likely someone would try to grab her.
And I like the idea of a bulletproof backpack. It is kind of affordable. 200 bucks isn't bad at all! plus you know it won't wear out so fast because its made of stuff to take bullets.

Glenn E. Meyer
November 11, 2009, 11:46 AM
This post was resurrected by a new one that suggested carrying a weapon that is illegal in many circumstances. I see nothing new and there was a call to shut it down before.

Thus - closed.