PDA

View Full Version : When would a shotgun be your first choice?


Kjeil
July 27, 2009, 10:02 AM
I'm trying to decide if it's really worth getting a tactical style shotgun (Remington 870 or Mossberg) with all the associated overhead such as training, practice, etc.

So here's my question: Say you already have:
- Various.40 S&W handguns
- SBR AR in 50 Beowulf
- Normal length carbine style AR in 5.56
- SPR style AR in 6.5 Grendel with backup iron sights
- SPR style AR in 5.56 also with iron sights

What type of situation would make reaching for a shotgun your first choice? I'm not sure I can think of one but I have the feeling I'm missing something

Brian Pfleuger
July 27, 2009, 10:06 AM
Only when I can reach it.....

A shotgun would almost always be my first choice if it's available. Far more power, less worry about over penetration or missed shots going through 5 walls. The only reason I carry a handgun is because a shotgun is too big.

That said, I personally have no use whatsoever for a "tactical" shotgun. My 11-87 does a number on deer, I don't suspect that it would be any different in a defensive situation.

rburch
July 27, 2009, 10:17 AM
You hear someone breaking a window at 4 am. In the dark, close range it's hard to beat a scattergun.

Your handguns can do the job, but never choose to fight with a handgun if you have the choice of longarms.

Your SBR would be good in close quarters, except I wouldn't want to have to go to court after using an SBR, or anything in 50 Beowulf for defense. Not to mention the obvious over penetration issue.

Your other Ar's could also fill the role, but again the over penetration issue is a problem with any rifle round.

Before I get trashed I'm more than aware that defensive loads in a shotgun can punch through walls and kill. The danger of this is less when using a shotgun compared to a rifle.

and +1 to peetzakilla, within 25 yards I take a shotgun, beyond 25 yards I take a rifle. I choose the handgun when it's my only option

kazanski612
July 27, 2009, 10:21 AM
I'm considering a tactical shotgun myself, but it would almost never be a "bump in the night" (BinN) solution - it'll be locked in my standup safe in the basement. I'd consider it my DEFCON 1 gun - when I have some reason to believe bad things are going to happen, it's what I'd grab.

But for the other 364 days a year, I'm grabbing the BitN handgun (currently Beretta PX4 .40 with 17-round extended mag).

rantingredneck
July 27, 2009, 10:28 AM
"It's the Indian, not the arrow"

If you have no training/experience with the shotgun, but have training/experience with the others, go with what you know..........

The time to figure it out isn't when you need it.

As to the overpenetration issue, compare a lightweight high velocity .223 round to 00 buckshot and see which one goes through more drywall. My money's on the buckshot personally.

(this from a shotgun guy.........)

Kjeil
July 27, 2009, 10:37 AM
If you have no training/experience with the shotgun, but have training/experience with the others, go with what you know..........

Yeah, that's what I meant by "Overhead"

Most of my training and experience is with the AR platform, I've always felt that if you have something you better know how to use it. So if I did pick up a shotgun that would mean more classes. That's not necessarily bad but it would take the place of more rifle or handgun training so I want to be sure it's worth it.

I actually have a Saiga 12 but that feels more aligned with carbine training than shotgun.

gun nut
July 27, 2009, 10:47 AM
With your nice selection of firearms if your knowledgeable in their function and abilities you don't probably need a shotgun. If your not familiar with a shotgun you'll need to train to be proficient with it. Personally the 2 guns in close proximity to me are a revolver and a shotgun. I can work either in complete darkness very quickly.

Brian Pfleuger
July 27, 2009, 10:48 AM
I don't know why you'd actually need classes to use the shotgun.
Defensive training? Yes. (Which you have.)
Practice? Yes, you need that with any gun.

Shotguns are not that complicated. You know how to use a gun, the actual differences in deployment are not that significant.

Old Grump
July 27, 2009, 10:58 AM
Trained pistol man here and rifle shooter by choice. When things go squishy at 2 in the morning and I have to check something out my bedside gun is a 357 loaded with 38's. Enough for a close bedroom distance encounter. If I have to get out of bed the Mossberg ends up in my hands loaded with #4 shot because I know the longest likely shot in my house, who is on the other side of the walls and I like the intimidating factor of the shotgun. The chances that I would have to use it goes down and if I do have to shoot the chance I would have to shoot twice is lessened.

Just because its called a scattergun doesn't mean you don't take aimed shots with it unless you are talking a 16" double barrel 10 gauge loaded with #9 bird shot, That is going to scatter like crazy. Can't do that anyway without a NFA stamp and I would never recommend small shot like that for HD. Couldn't do that with a semi or pump because of the tube underneath but you can get 18"-22" which are short enough for in house use.

I use an IM choke so I can shoot anything in it including slugs if needed. Add a 1.5x scope or ghost rings to it and you have a fast sighting accurate gun up to 7 or 8 yards, your longest likely shooting distance inside. Action up to you, I have old farmers guns, single shot break action, doubles, pump and semi's and I choose pump as my go to gun because of its reliability and its the one I'm most familiar with.

Better to have one and not need it than to be facing a couple of dopers flying high at dark thirty in the morning and wishing you had one.

Kjeil
July 27, 2009, 11:09 AM
I don't know why you'd actually need classes to use the shotgun.

The devil is in the details

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu83.htm

Brian Pfleuger
July 27, 2009, 11:15 AM
The devil is in the details

How does that explain why you need more classes?

That's some really basic stuff there.

Most of that information is not terribly relevant to most people. Action types? If someone is not familiar with the action types available for a shotgun then they should probably be taking some more classes.

If a gun is too heavy for you then you shouldn't use it.
If you can't handle the recoil then you shouldn't use it.
If it's not reliable then you shouldn't use it.

Personally, I would not consider, under virtually ANY circumstances, using a rifle for HD. I can keep a shotgun on target easier than a handgun. I use #6 or 5 or 4, or similar, birdshot not buck shot, to minimize over penetration issues.

Some mighty good info from our buddy Rob Pincus and The Best Defense here. (http://www.downrange.tv/bestdefense/wall-penetration.htm)

P5 Guy
July 27, 2009, 11:54 AM
Kjeil, I'd much rather have a plain old 18.5" pump shotgun. Keep the fancy taticool add ons. #2 shot for the first two and slugs for the last two shots. If it isn't settled by that I'm a goner anyway.

Captain38
July 27, 2009, 12:23 PM
The muzzle-end image of my State Police issue Model 870 kept me out of 100% of those gun-fights I would have otherwise had over nearly a three decade law enforcement career. I learned to REALLY appreciate it!

It's STILL my weapon of choice around the home if given enough warning!

MTMilitiaman
July 27, 2009, 12:28 PM
When would a shotgun be my first choice?

When the only other choice is a handgun.

Pretty clear pecking order on my totem pole; rifles are king, shotguns a distant second, handguns trail in third, honorable mention to the pointed stick...

I like to keep things simple :D

Sparks2112
July 27, 2009, 12:31 PM
If I have my choice, and it's inside of 50 yards I'm going for the shotgun. My Law-12 will pattern all 9 out of Federal Flite Control 00 buck on a standard IPSC target inside 50 yards. Inside 25 and I'm in the A & C zones.

Don't even get me started on what slugs will do. :)

Skans
July 27, 2009, 12:32 PM
Sporting Clays. That's 'bout it.

raftman
July 27, 2009, 12:33 PM
I wouldn't choose a shotgun simply on account of the "go with what you know" logic. Don't own a shotgun, and have rarely fired one, maybe 20 rounds in my entire life. So basically, I'd go with a shotgun only if under some circumstance, it was the only option. In which case, I'd hope it's a Saiga 12 with 10-round mag.

Sportdog
July 27, 2009, 01:36 PM
If I was just checking something out and was moving around in my house I would select a handgun. If I was taking a stand against BG or BG's I would choose my 18 1/2" pump 12 gauge with 2 3/4" Federal Tactical Buckshot. If there was a problem outside my house I would be keeping track of what is going on with shotgun in one hand and cell phone ready to call 911 in the other. I would NOT go outside to check out a problem. Wait, watch, and be prepared to call 911 or protect myself if things turned south.:eek:

ibe4buckshot
July 27, 2009, 01:43 PM
The shot gun is, and always will be my first gun to grab if something starts to go down. Alot more stopping power, less risk of overpenetration.

curt.45
July 27, 2009, 01:45 PM
What type of situation would make reaching for a shotgun your first choice? I'm not sure I can think of one but I have the feeling I'm missing something



when there are more than one BG comming at me close range, maybe put enough hurt on all of them with one shot to turn them away, if not at least slow them all down a bit.

lomaxanderson
July 27, 2009, 02:14 PM
most all home defense type happenings that I can think of ,awoken in the middle of the night ..I would use my handguns cause you can operate them with one hand and still have one to defend with or phone or anything else
Now if a gang of thugs called and said they were coming to burn down my house a shotgun would meet that type of threat.8 rounds of OO buck or slugs would even the odds a little...

buzz_knox
July 27, 2009, 02:21 PM
when there are more than one BG comming at me close range, maybe put enough hurt on all of them with one shot to turn them away, if not at least slow them all down a bit.

Unless we are talking about a very short barrel, most shotgun loads will not disperse much (if at all) at close range. At most social distances, the only advantage buck shot has over a slug is that it is less likely to penetrate.

Sixer
July 27, 2009, 02:32 PM
In a duplex or similar type of dwelling.

PT111
July 27, 2009, 03:36 PM
I really don't understand all of the commotion about this. If I am in my house and a BG breaks in the longest shot I am going to possibly have is 30 feet and that is maximum. I figure it will be closet ot 10 feet. At that range I really don't need night sights and a scope etc. I also don't need a rifle, a handgun or shotgun will do nicely. I have a double barrel that I don't have to worry about jamming but it only holds two shells. I figure that I am going to hit the BG with at least one of those two shots. I also have a 870, 1100 and a 9mm handy as backups. If the BG runs outside I am not planning on chasing him down the street to need a 50 yard range gun.

All of this is based on him breaking into my house. Now if you are talking about somewhere else then you have to give details but why an AR-15 with a 30 round mag inside your house?

Skans
July 27, 2009, 03:43 PM
Now if a gang of thugs called and said they were coming to burn down my house a shotgun would meet that type of threat.8 rounds of OO buck or slugs would even the odds a little...

Well, if I had that kind of "head up", I'd be on top of my roof with some type of .223 rifle and a bunch of pre-loaded magazines. Oh, and a well planned escape route. But, only if if they called me in advance and made a proper appointment.

Dragon55
July 27, 2009, 03:45 PM
Unexpected break in my Winchester pump with 5 00 buck.

only1najeep
July 27, 2009, 03:49 PM
I prefer a shotgun over a pistol anytime. Until recently I was a college student living in a apartment. I always prefer to have a shotgun so I dont have to worry about over penitration and injuring a neighbor. Now I live in an ajoined townhouse and still have my 870 close by.

hogdogs
July 27, 2009, 03:50 PM
Always... I can not imagine ever being better with a pistol than I am with an 18-20 inch barreled shot gun...
But that could have a bit to do with the shotgun having been my primary firearm for 30+ years:o
Brent

markj
July 27, 2009, 04:13 PM
They called them "Greeners" why? ease of use. easy to work, load, fire all in one weapon. Versatile too. Loads come in many types, 8 shot very lite good for in house, down to 00 buck or go heavy with a slug capable of stopping the largest animals on this planet. So easy a cave man can do it :)

Nnobby45
July 27, 2009, 04:55 PM
when there are more than one BG comming at me close range, maybe put enough hurt on all of them with one shot to turn them away, if not at least slow them all down a bit.

At "close range" (in your living room, say) the "pattern" may be about equal to the distance between a couple of shirt buttons, and one shot won't be slowing them all down.

However, if you point precisely, I like your chance of stopping each one you hit (with individual shots) in their tracks..:cool:

Southern_guy
July 27, 2009, 05:26 PM
1. Hurricane Katrina 2.0
2. Piracy (if the thugs are onboard and below deck)
3. Guarding a stairwell in an apartment building during a disaster.

BlackFeather
July 27, 2009, 07:02 PM
use the siga if you want a carbine and a shotgun... if its comfortable... I like bird shot but if you can get bean bag rounds... well that might be more fun (I am saying this in regards to the fact that you may not want to have to say you killed them...)

MLeake
July 27, 2009, 07:52 PM
.... because they were made by the gunmaker, W.W. Greener, out of Birmingham, England. Nothing to do with ease of use by new guys.

As creative theories go, though, it's better than many.

Xyas
July 27, 2009, 08:11 PM
I see a lot of people mentioning the penetrating power of rifles being greater than a shotgun. I was read the "Ammo Oracle" on AR15.com the other day and read this article:

http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/project/term_jspsafe.html

And other somewhat related articles:

http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/project/term_velocity.html
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot12.htm

I thought I had a couple more somewhere else but I can't find them anywhere.

I don't claim to be an expert on the ammo penetration of a rifle vs. a shotgun, I just found these articles interesting and was wondering about people's opinions about .223 or 5.56 rounds and wall penetration.

And will the 5.56 or .223 penetrate farther and still stay as lethal as say, a shotgun shooting 00 buckshot?


If anyone has anymore reading on the subject, I would greatly appreciate the links! Thanks, and I hope I've provided some food for thought!

Brian Pfleuger
July 27, 2009, 10:54 PM
If anyone has anymore reading on the subject, I would greatly appreciate the links! Thanks, and I hope I've provided some food for thought!

Check the link I posted on page 1 to the penetration tests done by Rob Pincus and The Best Defense.

BikerRN
July 28, 2009, 02:17 AM
Without going into the penetration issue, I use a shotgun as my preferred home defense weapon of choice when I am in a barricaded position.

I am the last line of defense for my family and that threat has to be stopped NOW! Nothing is more effective in my opinion at delivering the massive amount of power that the shotgun does in as easy to handle package. Yes, rifles too deliver massive amounts of power, but at what cost?

That's where things like recoil and penetration come into play. Out to 100 Yards give me a shotgun unless I have to make a precise shot in a crowd. Then it's time for the rifle. If you want a rifle because you are more familiar with that platform all I have to say is, familiarity is not a good enough reason to select a rifle when the recommendation for home defense has historically been the shotgun. There must be a reason for that. I suggest that you train on the shotgun and get competent with it. I am having to train on the rifle.

Get familiar and competent with both the rifle and the shotgun and then it won't matter much. You will be able to run with whatever you have at the moment. That's why I'm training on the rifle.

Biker

.351winchester
July 28, 2009, 03:30 AM
I hold the opinion or beleif I guess, inside 50 yards or maybe a little less, nothing is more effective or devastating than a shotgun. Centuries of street cred as a one shot stopper. In fear of my life suddenly and in position to take out the offender, I would want a 12 gauge pump, 00 buck, a Mossberg for the tang safety, and indoors, a bead sight. First choice. second for HD, a N-frame .45 ACP or 'loose' 1911 with 230gr. HST or Pow'rball in the 1911. Both shotgun and handgun options would be SOL on even a puny 200. IIA vest if the intruder was prepared that way. A headshot would be simple from a shotgun at room distance even under the stress of having to shoot a man dead to save myself and loved ones.
A Ghost ring setup (such as the Mossy 930 SPX, FN SLP, Wilson Standard Model, and Benelli M2 Tactical) and rifled slugs can work out to 100 yards (carbine range). Beyond that, reach for the .308 MBR or precision rifle.

You have an excellent collection I like the inclusion of the 6.5 and .50 beowulf. You seem to favor the urban carbine and must know it has pretty much consolidated/eliminated the use of submachine guns, shotguns, and full length "assault rifles" everywhere. Clint Smith's doing I think. But those weapons still have their own niches and things they can do better. In my example above, a shotgun can handle business within range most carbines get used. I think they're all good and useful.

Comfort with the weapon is paramount. This girl I was seeing last winter was 5' 9" and 110, and needed a gun for her apartment. She was a dancer and had large amounts of cash on her always, in a complex overflowing with Heroin, Oxy and glass dealers. I figured something with a stock would be the way to go for someone who never fired a gun. Thought about an auto carbine in a pistol cal or shorty lever in a revolver cal, or a M1 carbine. One day she spotted my new GSG-5 behind the seat which had fired reliably for me, and it became hers at that moment. HD with a .22? Damn right, the way she tap danced on those Rockstar and monster cans. First time and superb shooting Later took her to try out the 870 20 gauge 7 shot, and a few revolvers. Not interested. I don't tell this to reccomend .22lr as a suitable SD cartridge. But in this case, it was the GSG, or the butcher knife she was using before. I'm just glad she has a firearm and will use it if needed, though I miss that, second funnest toy I ever had (first was my 22/45). But an example that the best weapon is the one you know inside and out, spend time with, operation comes naturally. for me that would be a mini 14. But when it's do or die, I'll take the undisputed power of a shotgun (and a mossberg pump is also just as familiar)

Dwight55
July 28, 2009, 05:37 AM
Contrary to popular belief, . . . neither the Winchester lever gun, nor Colts SAA pistol won the West. The lowly shotgun holds that honor, . . . able to put quail or bear on the dinner plate, . . . the kids, mom, or dad could use it, . . . almost everyone had one or more, . . . less expensive to shoot than a similar power rifle.

Above and beyond that, . . . military folks like them for their firepower, . . . mine can put 84 each, 38 caliber pellets down range in less than 3 seconds in my 64 year old hands (7 x 3" x 12 gauge 00 buck rounds). I'll be reloaded in 6 more seconds and sending another 84 down range, . . . air express.

Mobs, . . . zombies, . . . coyotes, . . . gang bangers, . . . and even a few selected Democrats have focused their respect toward the old scattergun.

May God bless,
Dwight

MTMilitiaman
July 28, 2009, 12:18 PM
Quantity having a quality all its own does not mean it's quality is superior to the quality of quality.

Eighty-four .38 caliber round balls @ 1300 fps is going to have a hard time matching the effect of eight .30 caliber 168 gr Hornady Amaxs @ 2600 fps, which is about what I can do for aimed fire from my M1A with iron sights at shotgun distances. And when you consider that the M1A does it while allowing my twelve more rounds before I have to reload, has less recoil than most buckshot rounds I've put through my 870, and gives me the option of covering much longer ranges, or loading to defeat body armor and hard barriers, all without sacrificing anything in terms of speed or risk of over penetration with defensive ammunition, and it is readily apparent why many squad cars now days are leaving the shotgun in the trunk for specialized applications and rolling with a carbine for general use. The rifle is more versatile. The shotgun won the West. Fine. So did horses. I still drive car and shoot a rifle.

Daugherty16
July 28, 2009, 02:20 PM
Nothing signals danger quite like the unmistakable sound of racking a shell into the chamber of a shotgun. Except maybe a rattlesnake. Definite deterrant value there, but i don't want rattlesnakes in my house.

For close quarters, especially in your home, you don't want to spray and pray. Twelve shots of panic-fired jacketed .308s is formidable, but a miss is flying far and fast to who knows where. A single shotgun shell at close range sends an ounce or more (an ounce is 437.5 grains, people, compared to 125gr 9mm, or 225gr .45, or 55gr 5.56) of lead in nice tight patterns - regardless of choke or shot size - inside 10 yards. Place that in the COM and the BG is down hard. Yes, energy is exponential to velocity and only linear to mass, but mass is a constant that cannot be ignored. Heavy things simply take longer to stop. Besides, if you're defending your family, do you want a little .3" hole (made with 2500ft/lbs but with a very high chance of pass-thru) or a gnarly 2" hole (made with 2000 ft/lbs that disperses all its energy in the wound) in the BG chest?

I think Pete is correct - bird shot doesn't over-penetrate secondary or tertiary walls, but certainly still packs a wallop at short distance. The Pincus video is interesting, if not purely scientific. The beauty of lead shot is that at close range, it acts similar to a solid projectile but as it spreads or encounters resistance, it separates and acts like individual light projectiles, spending its energy faster hence the lower penetration at distance.

Don't get me wrong - i like all my guns for their various uses. But my rifles are all hunting tools, powerful and accurate at long-range. For HD, in the middle of the night, I'd start with the shotgun. Just point and shoot. And repeat as necessary.

markj
July 28, 2009, 04:02 PM
because they were made by the gunmaker, W.W. Greener, out of Birmingham, England. Nothing to do with ease of use by new guys.


If you have a genuine English "W Greener" it should be a muzzle loader, either flintlock or percussion, made between 1829 and 1869. W Greener made firearms in Birmingham, England. His son, W W Greener disagreed with his father's decision to continue making only percussion guns and started his own business in 1855. After the father's death in 1869, the son took over the business and any guns made after that year will be marked "W W Greener". WW had offices in Birmingham, London, Paris, New York, and Montreal. The family business existed until at least 1965.

Until 1869 all were muzzle loaders not cartridge.

Whereas this was a common name:

Greeners. greenhorns, inexperienced people, particularly new immigrants,

The short barreled "coach" guns of the time were easy to load and fire on another.

Least this is what I was told by my Uncle he collected guns from the revolutionary time until the 1900s. Some of the guns he had were carried by relatives in those wars.

Only S&W and Me
July 28, 2009, 06:32 PM
Sidebar question...can your ears handle a 12G Mossberg 00 indoors? I wonder if I ever have to use it to defend myself but I guess a few weeks of ringing is worth your life....;)

ghalleen
July 28, 2009, 06:36 PM
I was wishing I had my 870, loaded with slugs, when I ran into a big black bear who had no fear of people while camping last week...

Luckily, I was able to back away safely, but the rest of the trip I was feeling a bit underpowered with my .357 magnum. We saw the same bear several times.

BlackFeather
July 28, 2009, 07:02 PM
Except maybe a rattlesnake. Definite deterrant value there, but i don't want rattlesnakes in my house. I disagree... that would be awesome... if you could take their teeth away...

Ricky B
July 28, 2009, 11:11 PM
When would a shotgun be your first choice?
I'm trying to decide if it's really worth getting a tactical style shotgun (Remington 870 or Mossberg) with all the associated overhead such as training, practice, etc.


What type of situation would make reaching for a shotgun your first choice?

At home, a shotgun would be my first choice always.

Tactical shotgun? Only if you want to play at being tactical. I have a bargain-basement Mossberg 500 with an 18" barrel. If 5 rounds of 00 buck out of that wouldn't stop the problem, adding extended mag tubes, sidesaddles, flashlights, slings, and breaching attachments aren't going to help me. (For those who like tactical accessories for shotguns, more power to you, and don't let me discourage you, but I don't think they're necessary for the average person.)

Training to use a shotgun for someone who is experienced with firearms should not require a lot of overhead. Training to break 25 straight at trap requires a lot of overhead. Training to keep your buckshot patterns within an 18" circle at 7 yards, not so much.

skydiver3346
July 29, 2009, 08:04 AM
:rolleyes: Well it all depends on the situation.

If I have enough "lead time" when a situation developes, then I would choose my Remington Model 870 (loaded with #4 buckshot). However, if it is immediate threat and close by, then I would choose my Glock 21 (night sights/Streamlight tactical light) lying on my nightstand next to my bed.

Shotgun is in corner next to bed. Also, the racking of a shell into the chamber of my 870 makes a very loud and ominous sound which should alert the bad guy I am seriously armed. If it doesn't, then he gets to meet Mr. Remington up close and personal.....

scottycoyote
July 29, 2009, 08:13 AM
i bought a police auction mossberg entry gun and turned it into a tactical shotgun back before the word tactical was stamped on everything. With a sidesaddle shell holder, lazer, flashlight and collapsible stock its the perfect "what was that noise" gun. Its got everything i need all together, it was cheap, and like someone else said, looking at the business end of a 12guage might be all someone needs to change their mind and leave you alone.

Mello2u
July 29, 2009, 10:21 AM
The choke of the barrel of a shotgun can determine the spread of the pattern of shot which exits the barrel. At Gunsite we tested the five shotguns that the 4 students used going through the shotgun class and John Satterwight's (the instructor) shotgun too.

Clint Smith was a student in that class with another instructor. They both used a Benelli semi-auto. I was using a Remington 870 with a 20" barrel with rifle sights and I suspect an open choke.

We found that when shooting a 12ga load with 9 pellets of 00 buckshot at Pepper Poppers that we could reliably knock one down out to about 25 yards with any of the shotguns. A 12 pellet load extended the range a couple of yards. It seems to take at least 4 pellets center of mass or higher to knock down a Pepper Popper at that range. Satterwight's gun had a full choke and could knock down the targets out to about 35 yards.

From that experience I now consider my shotgun to be limited to 25 yards with buckshot. Of course slugs are a different matter.

Brian Pfleuger
July 29, 2009, 10:34 AM
From that experience I now consider my shotgun to be limited to 25 yards with buckshot. Of course slugs are a different matter.

Which is of course more than 10 times the distance of the average SD encounter and probably at least 3, maybe 5, times the distance one would be shooting inside a home.

MTMilitiaman
July 29, 2009, 10:58 AM
Nothing signals danger quite like the unmistakable sound of racking a shell into the chamber of a shotgun.

O, I get it. You're talking about when the music get really dramatic and the hero says some catchy one liner and punctuates by racking a shell in his 12 gauge?

In reality, while racking a shell in your chamber for dramatic effect works well in the movies and stands a good chance of scaring an intruder, it's tactically foolish. It provides vital intel to the intruder that you do not possess about him/them, namely, your location and that you are armed. Intel is the difference between victory and a sucking chest wound on the battlefield, and anywhere you stand a decent chance of exchanging gunfire is officially a battlefield.

Even if you do go with a shotgun, you're far better off just keeping the thing loaded and leaving Steven Segal in Hollywood.

Except maybe a rattlesnake. Definite deterrant value there, but i don't want rattlesnakes in my house.

About the only thing in your post that makes sense.

For close quarters, especially in your home, you don't want to spray and pray.

Yeah, but who said anything about spray and pray? Not me. I even specified "aimed" fire. Why is it someone always assumes an advantage in capacity equates to a lack of marksmanship?

From a spray and pray point of view, 80+ whatever-sized round balls directed with a bead sight en masse qualifies a lot more than individually aimed hammer pairs from a rifle. It's simple probability. Every projectile has to be accounted for, and more projectiles stand a higher risk of collateral damage than less projectiles aimed individually with the same care.

Twelve shots of panic-fired jacketed .308s is formidable, but a miss is flying far and fast to who knows where.

Thus the reason you aim. And for the record, I don't know what you're insinuating, but there is no reason using a rifle for self-defense should result in any more panic-ed fire than a shotgun. The rifle is just more accurate, and gives the user more control over what gets a hole in it, and where that hole is.

A single shotgun shell at close range sends an ounce or more (an ounce is 437.5 grains, people, compared to 125gr 9mm, or 225gr .45, or 55gr 5.56) of lead in nice tight patterns - regardless of choke or shot size - inside 10 yards. Place that in the COM and the BG is down hard. Yes, energy is exponential to velocity and only linear to mass, but mass is a constant that cannot be ignored. Heavy things simply take longer to stop. Besides, if you're defending your family, do you want a little .3" hole (made with 2500ft/lbs but with a very high chance of pass-thru) or a gnarly 2" hole (made with 2000 ft/lbs that disperses all its energy in the wound) in the BG chest?

Yes, but each pellet has comparatively little mass, and thus, little momentum. A single 00 buck pellet weighs about the same as a single 5.56 round, or a little less, and its greater diameter means it has a lower sectional density. This means it sheds velocity faster and penetrates less. And that isn't necessarily a good thing.

The velocities produces by a shotgun are closer to those produced by handguns than they are to those produced by rifles. This means that the shotgun lacks the velocity to cause damage to organs beyond the immediate path of the projectile(s). So each buckshot pellet is carving a pencil-sized hole, with little or no damage occurring beyond the permanent wound cavity produced by the individual projectile. In effect, you're emptying a .32 caliber mouse gun in the general direction of the enemy and relying on the cumulative effects of these rounds to be more than the sum of its parts.

By comparison, you have a 168 gr Hornady Amax leaving an 18 inch M1A Scout at over 2500 fps. At, this velocity, shock forces produced by the projectile are violent enough to permanently tear and bruise vital tissue for several inches beyond the immediate path of the bullet. Plus, by virtue of its construction, this bullet fragments violently upon impact, losing nearly half of its mass to this effect. At its widest point, the crush cavity of this round, achieved somewhere around 6 inches of penetration, is over 5 inches in diameter. The projectile eventually comes to halt with barely over half its original mass and about twice its orignal diameter after penetrating about 16 inches of tissue--ideal for defensive application. This means that a single expanding .308 round possesses over 70% of the tissue displacement and wound cavitation of your average 12 gauge buckshot round. And because it has less recoil, and at least twice the capacity, the user can operate hammer pairs at in-house distances with a high-probability (at least as high as all your pellets striking the target at the same distance) of both rounds impacting on target, and he can still engage ten times without reloading once. Meaning the shotgun has the advantage in actual application in neither firepower nor terminal effect, when the rifle is employed in this manner.

Even assuming your energy dump theory holds water (and it doesn't), when and if the rifle bullet exits the attacker's body, it's already "dumped" more energy into the target than the 12 gauge round even possess.

And none of this comes at the expense of conventional advantages held by rifles, such as range and accuracy. A rifle carbine is at least as handy indoors as a shotgun, and even a 7.62mm battle rifle such as a FAL or M1A is going to be light enough that no adult capable of handy 12 gauge recoil should notice it, esp given the advantages associated with that extra weight.

I think Pete is correct - bird shot doesn't over-penetrate secondary or tertiary walls, but certainly still packs a wallop at short distance. The Pincus video is interesting, if not purely scientific. The beauty of lead shot is that at close range, it acts similar to a solid projectile but as it spreads or encounters resistance, it separates and acts like individual light projectiles, spending its energy faster hence the lower penetration at distance.

Penetration is your friend. Those who research these things (mostly by shooting things and analyzing the results) know this. Too little penetration is far more dangerous than too much penetration. Too little penetration gets you stabbed or shot (then the BG moves on to your family). Too much penetration might result in the bullet killing or injuring an innocent 3rd party, or their property. I'll take "will" vs "might" odds any day of the week.

Shallow, superficial wounds, such as those created by birdshot (at any range), are unreliable stoppers. Without damaging vital organs or the CNS, only pain response and the mental response of getting shot stand to stop an attacker. Even without other mind-altering substances, these responses are likely to be dulled by the adrenaline and other chemicals created in duress by the body. The only way to reliably stop an attacker barring a hit to the CNS, is by blood loss and damage to vital organs. This requires the round to penetrate to the vital organs, regardless of clothing encountered, or shot angle presented, and regardless of what skeletal-muscular obstacles the round encounters. This is why the FBI has a mandatory 12 inch of penetration rule, even after penetrating heavy clothing, or other obstacles. They prefer 14 to 16 inches, and so do I. Nearly half of all Americans are overweight, and 1/3 of them are obese. That means the chances of your round having to penetrate more than the 6 to 8 inches provided by birdshot is very high.

I've seen 6 and 7 1/2 shot fail to stop ground squirrels from perfectly centered patterns out of an extra-full turkey choke in my 870 Wingmaster at ranges I have in my house far too many times to trust birdshot on anything larger than a rabbit. Beyond 30 to 40 feet, exit wounds are the exception rather than the rule even on these 1.5 pound varmints.

Don't get me wrong - i like all my guns for their various uses. But my rifles are all hunting tools, powerful and accurate at long-range. For HD, in the middle of the night, I'd start with the shotgun. Just point and shoot. And repeat as necessary.

"Just point and shoot"? Now who is spraying and praying?

If, by your own admission, the shot acts like a single projectile at close range, that would seem to indicate that it still has to be aimed like a single projectile. And indeed, that is the case.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#.308

Stevie-Ray
July 30, 2009, 07:33 PM
Never

Shadi Khalil
July 30, 2009, 07:46 PM
I think I would always want the shotgun or any power rifle/carbine before the handgun. My shotgun skills are not so great but its enough to get the job done.

MLeake
July 30, 2009, 07:58 PM
One post expressed concern over shotgun noise indoors. A while back I had posted the same concern - don't remember which thread, it wasn't recent. Anyway, another poster came back with a table showing actual noise levels for common SD weapons.

If I remember correctly, the 12ga from 20" barrel came in around 155dB, and a .357mag from a 4" barrel came in around 161db; in any case there was a 5 or 6 dB increase from the shotgun to the magnum.

A shorter barreled .357 would be even louder.

So, if you're worried about shotgun noise inside, you might want to reconsider that .357 unless it's downloaded to .38+P.

In response to the original question, I'm still undecided as to whether I'd grab an 18.5" 12ga pump or a 16" 5.56 AR for a bump in the night. Given that the house is in the country (pasture and forest), the AR has a range advantage. The EOTech sight on the AR allows for very rapid sight acquisition, too, and its brightness is adjustable for ambient lighting conditions. Hard to beat a 30rd mag, and I've had a reasonable amount of training on M16 and M4... Guess for me, the AR is a better choice.

However, my significant other is a farmgirl, and is more comfortable with shotguns. I usually have a handgun and surefire available near wherever I sleep.

So, guess which one stays in the bedroom overnight, and which is in the safe?

(Can anybody say, if Mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy?)

Besides, the safe isn't all that far.


Cheers,

M

Edward429451
July 30, 2009, 08:32 PM
A SG would be pretty effective indoors for SD. Slugs only of course.

If I for some insane reason have to step outside...I'm taking a rifle.

oneounceload
July 30, 2009, 08:46 PM
While my handgun is the closest gun to my bed - it is there to allow me the chance to get to my shotgun. A shotgun beats a handgun any day, and a rifle beats a shotgun..........

johnwilliamson062
July 30, 2009, 08:55 PM
with choice of ammo in each situation i would take a shotgun in any situation to at least 50 yards. Slugs past 30.

THe carbines you list will do any job pretty well from 5 to 400 yards, maybe a bit beyond, but there are better guns at almost all the specific ranges within that set.

ramp_tech
July 30, 2009, 10:11 PM
When I am dealing with something requires more firepower...:p

Shotgun only becomes my first choice when I don't have my Walther P99 and tripped out Mini-14.

ibdecent
July 30, 2009, 10:37 PM
the safety stinks for stocks with pistol grips....it's on the top of the reciever. you must remove your stronghand to reach it. granted if it hits the fan you probably will have it kicked off long before hand, but in the event you couldn't, there's precious seconds lost. Don't get me wrong, I love the mossies, best duck hunting gun for the money, but the safety is in the wrong spot for pistol grips.

dpturbo29
July 31, 2009, 12:14 AM
As others have said, I think it comes down to familiarity. I personally reach for the shotgun because that's what I grew up with. Got my first 12 gauge when I was 12. Countless hours in fields, duck blinds, and the clays range have made that particular weapon like another appendage. For you the same may be true of your carbines (by the way - I wish I could claim a collection like that).

At ranges found inside the average home I don't believe a short barreled shotgun gives anything up to the carbine in handiness and probably has a more devastating effect on target. Another pro for the shotgun is the ability to choose from a wide range of available loads to control over penetration.

dpturbo29
July 31, 2009, 12:40 AM
I don't mean to pick, but did you say you have failed to kill a squirrel with a 12 gauge at "in home" distances? The last time I shot a squirrel at "in home" range with a 12 gauge it took me 5 minutes to find a cleaned out hull of what used to be a squirrel 15 yards away wrapped around a sapling.

R1145
July 31, 2009, 01:57 AM
Overall, a tactical rifle is more versatile and formidable, but reasons to choose a shotgun are:

- Quickness: No aiming, swing the gun, find the bead, fire, target goes down.

- Hit probability: A 25" cone at 25 feet, nine balls with 00 Buck.

- Rule 4: What's beyond. Lead balls are spent at short ranges relative to bullets.

So, therefore, choose a shotgun when you need to knock someone down quickly at close range without spraying lead two miles away...which covers many self-defense scenarios.

stonesfan08
July 31, 2009, 02:29 AM
the 870 and 500 are both used by the military and both are very customizable you can get 18" to 28" barrels(maybe only 26") you can get short or long stocks. rifled barrels. but there is also the benelli supernova you might want to look at. and for uses for a shotgun HD, sporting clays, 3 gun comp., turkey hunting, deer hunting, rabbit hunting, upland game hunting, ducks and all that just about evrything but long distance shooting

sakeneko
July 31, 2009, 12:58 PM
In reference to the original question, I would prefer a shotgun to a handgun for self defense in any situation where I had the choice. But shotguns are not concealable (unless you're very tall and given to wearing trenchcoats everywhere), and not comfortable to carry with you in most circumstances. For those reasons, our shotgun (a Mossberg 500) is a home defense weapon. That includes "camp defense" if my husband and I are camping in an area where a bear or large predator is a possibility.

Otherwise, we rely on our handguns, which are almost always with us unless we're going somewhere where it is illegal to carry. Obviously, if we ever need to defend ourselves somewhere where the shotgun isn't handy, we will do so with the handguns.

Vanya
July 31, 2009, 02:07 PM
Hit probability: A 25" cone at 25 feet, nine balls with 00 Buck.
R1145, I think you probably mean yards, here, not feet, and if you believe the test patterns from the Box O' Truth (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot20.htm), even at that range 25" is a bit generous. Their largest pattern with 00 buck at 12 feet was 4", and at 20 yards, 17" -- and that was for a 3" load with 15 pellets. With 9-pellet loads at 20 yards their groups were around 10".

So at room-type distances (as has been pointed out here ever so often) it's not some form of "instant spray and pray" -- ya still gotta aim.

That said, I basically agree with you... for home defense, I'll take a shotgun every time.

Glenn E. Meyer
July 31, 2009, 03:01 PM
Would folks please stop saying you don't have to aim shotguns? For the love of Pete or whomever.

Also, if you want to discuss relative penetration of rounds - it is your responsibility to look that stuff up before you expound on a 223 vs 00.

Last, have you shot either in a shoot house or match - so you have a comparative view of their utility? Do you shoot matches with all three platforms - shotguns miss and you can jam them up. They are slow for repeat shots, esp. for casual users.

In the average HD situation - it is more important that you are competent with the firearm as compared to just spouting cliches.

A quality handgun and good ammo, shotgun or carbine platform will work. The shotgun always is put forward as some wonder tool, hammer of Thor (with the Judge being a mini-version). The person and training is more important. I'd be more confident with an Insights member, KRtraining staff, Givens, NTI participant than with a guy I know who has kept a 12 gauge pistol grip in his sock draw unfired for twenty years.

Brian Pfleuger
July 31, 2009, 03:02 PM
If I remember correctly, the 12ga from 20" barrel came in around 155dB, and a .357mag from a 4" barrel came in around 161db; in any case there was a 5 or 6 dB increase from the shotgun to the magnum.

A shorter barreled .357 would be even louder.

So, if you're worried about shotgun noise inside, you might want to reconsider that .357 unless it's downloaded to .38+P.

Noise level during an confined indoor SD incident is going to be irrelevant. A 22LR is RIDICULOUS indoors. Any gun fired in an enclosed area will leave your ears ringing and head spinning..... and you're not going to notice a thing. Your brain will not be paying attention to such trivialities as loud noises if you're shooting at someone in your house.

This is one more reason why I keep my electronic ear muffs on my dresser. If I have time then they're going on.

MTMilitiaman
July 31, 2009, 04:26 PM
I don't mean to pick, but did you say you have failed to kill a squirrel with a 12 gauge at "in home" distances? The last time I shot a squirrel at "in home" range with a 12 gauge it took me 5 minutes to find a cleaned out hull of what used to be a squirrel 15 yards away wrapped around a sapling.

O no, it died.

There are these railroad tracks running next to my grandparent's property. Ground squirrels make holes in the berms on either side, and along the maintenance roads. My brother and I have spent a lot of hours and put in a lot of miles walking up and down these tracks hunting these ground squirrels, as well as grouse and rabbits. We've taken about every assortment of weaponry available to us on these walks and killed truck loads of the little varmints. At one point, it wasn't uncommon for one of us to have our respective Rem M870 12 gauges. Mine is a Wingmaster with a 26 inch barrel and an aftermarket extra-full turkey choke. I've used this shotgun to take turkeys and grouse out to 40 yards. When my dad got his Mec and started reloading for the shotguns, we had three garbage bags full of hulls for him--and that was just the ones we saved. Most of the hulls were Rem 2 3/4 inch #6 field loads. My dad loaded them with 7 1/2 because he is primarily concerned with shooting clays. My brother and I have never been impressed with the stopping power of bird shot, even on these small varmints. While the ground squirrels almost always die, we find that at any distance beyond 20 to 25 feet, it isn't uncommon for multiple rounds to have to be placed on target in short order to keep the ground squirrel from squirming down his hole to die a slow and painful death. Anymore, we don't use shotguns much. A single Velocitor from my 10/22 is far more effective to a far greater range than birdshot from a shotgun. Plus the 10/22 is lighter and handier.

So when I put my experience with shotguns loaded with birdshot together with the results of others testing them against different mediums, I just don't see how anyone would trust birdshot from home defense when I have seen it fail to stop (not kill) a 1.5 pound ground squirrel literally hundreds of times. In fact, it's really the rule rather than the exception; pull up on standing ground squirrel 50 or so feet away (about the distance from my bed, though the open bedroom door, to the living room), line up fiber optic sights COM on standing ground squirrel, pull trigger, BOOMP, perfectly centered pattern visible as dust ring around varmint, ground squirrel flops over on ground and begins flopping around and pulling itself towards hole, clack-clack, drop the rest of the mag at ground squirrel, which gradually ceases movement mere inches from hole entrance, but only after squirming several feet as it takes 2 or 3 twelve gauge birdshot rounds. Or, like I said, you can just shoot it once with a .22, blow a hole you can stick your thumb through its chest on the first shot, and not have to worry about it squirming down its hole to slowly die. It's not a shot placement issue, so there's not much we can do to make birdshot any more effective.

MLeake
July 31, 2009, 04:29 PM
... it's going to be loud, and fight or flight will make that temporarily irrelevant.

Flashblindness might not be as irrelevant. Would prefer not to find out. A lower flash, lower noise intensity round like 9mm, .45acp or .44special might be less distracting indoors, and it might make some difference in shooter performance.

But my basic argument was with a poster who complained that the shotgun would be too loud. According to the stats I read, a shotgun is less noisy than a magnum handgun in 4" or shorter barrel. So, if he thinks magnum handguns have acceptable noise levels due to their stopping power, he should have no qualms about shotguns.

Brian Pfleuger
July 31, 2009, 04:34 PM
Flashblindness might not be as irrelevant.

That's true.... I shot this deer once, in my misguided youth,.... it was.... a "wee-bit" past legal shooting light.... anyhow, almost fell out of my stand, couldn't see a thing for a couple of minutes. It was surprisingly effective at blinding me for what would be FAR too long in a SD situation. Still, the #4 shot to the chest from 15 feet will likely give the BG something to worry about as well.... no guarantee but I like it better than a handgun, personally.

MLeake
July 31, 2009, 04:37 PM
I was referring to the flash from a short barreled magnum being worse than the flash from a shotgun.

I've shot 12ga, 1911, M4, and M9 at night courses over the years, and they weren't that bad. However, a hot .357 load out of an SP101 makes a noticeable flash at a lighted indoor range, and I can just imagine what it would look like in really dark conditions.

I think shotguns are just fine for HD, so long as one doesn't try creeping around blind corners with one.

Brian Pfleuger
July 31, 2009, 04:41 PM
Oh.:o

My bad. That would be an interesting test. I've seen the flash from both but never side by side for comparison. The flash from a 12ga is no slouch, that's for sure.

If I was having to hunt my way through the house then I might take my handgun instead... my preferred tactic is to hide in the bedroom and wait for the PD, so it would have to be a rather severe happenstance to have me go looking. If it was that severe then I might want the shotgun....

Hm, anyway.... here's to hoping I never find out.

Southern Rebel
July 31, 2009, 04:41 PM
Shotgun - home defense at night after having gone to bed. Otherwise, rifle when I am out in the countryside, pistol when in car or on street. (Not necessarily advocating choices - just identifying what I currently use and where.)

Vanya
July 31, 2009, 04:58 PM
Any gun fired in an enclosed area will leave your ears ringing and head spinning..... and you're not going to notice a thing. Your brain will not be paying attention to such trivialities as loud noises if you're shooting at someone in your house.

This is one more reason why I keep my electronic ear muffs on my dresser. If I have time then they're going on.
Oh goody -- someone else who thinks this is a good idea. :)

What's almost as bad as the canard about not having to aim shotguns? The one that goes, "Oh, you don't need hearing protection in an HD situation -- you won't even hear the shot with all that adrenaline." Umm, no. Sound is a physical event, and it has physical effects on your ears. Any gunshot in a small space will indeed be ridiculously loud, and will very likely damage your hearing; just because you don't notice the noise at the time doesn't mean it's not blowing out the hair cells in your cochlea.

I'd way rather be deaf than dead, but I'd prefer to avoid both, if at all possible.

armsmaster270
July 31, 2009, 07:44 PM
Multiple opponents at the same time.
And I have been in a shooting in a narrow hallway using a 4" S&W Mod 15 with 110gr 38spl+P+ ammo and I hardly noticed the shot and it didn't stop or slow me down a bit. Been there Done that.

ML: I trained police officers with the lights off and using flashlights there is a light show for you.

dpturbo29
July 31, 2009, 09:42 PM
I agree with your latest assessment. I don't think you specified "clay loads" in your original post. I find anything smaller than no. 6 shot is fairly useless on anything but clay and doves and it often just wounds the doves. I too find the 10/22 to be much more fun for the pesky tree rat.

thmsmgnm
July 31, 2009, 10:17 PM
Remington 870.

MLeake
August 1, 2009, 12:04 AM
I did courses of fire where we either had police cruisers behind us with the lightbars flashing for a multicolored strobe effect while we advanced around barriers into a darkened target area (simulating raid on bad guys), or sentry spotlights streaking back and forth over a perimeter while we engaged targets in the dark areas inside the inner edge of the spotlight tracks (simulating defense against raid by bad guys).

A lot of people had orientation issues with the multi-colored strobes. For some reason, those really didn't bother me at all.

But one doesn't really appreciate the effects of muzzle blast on vision until one shoots in the dark.

Cheers,

M

Stevie-Ray
August 1, 2009, 12:18 AM
Any gunshot in a small space will indeed be ridiculously loud, and will absolutely damage your hearing; just because you don't notice the noise at the time doesn't mean it's not blowing out the hair cells in your cochlea.Fixed it for you.;)

I'm shopping for some E-muffs, myself.

Vanya
August 1, 2009, 11:10 AM
Thanks, Stevie-Ray! Right you are. :D (It's the science background... you're taught to hedge on practically everything. :o)

Glenn E. Meyer
August 1, 2009, 11:25 AM
Hair cells - cochlea - hey, who doesn't say we aren't running a high class joint.

About flash - also think about your flashlight. Strap a big honker on your gun. It will blind your opponent.

So as an experiment - I get up in the middle of the night - totally target adapted. I take my Surefire 9P - which I can mount on my AR. I go in the walkin closet - totally pitch black and aim the flashlight light down the aisle.

I trigger it and BOOM! My eyes shut violently and all I see for a few minutes is rows of shirts and shoes.

I would have been better off in the ambient light in the house from outdoor moonlight and using the Eotech.

Slopemeno
August 2, 2009, 12:28 AM
Good point, and something you need to be aware of when you use a flashlight is to make sure you have the flashlight *around* the corner when it comes on- flat white walls reflect a lot of light.

I've shot 12 gauge magnums indoors, in the dark. Yes, they're loud and have a nice dull orange flash, but I'll take that over a .357 any day.

TXSyKo
August 3, 2009, 11:46 AM
12 guage oo buck inside. .30-30 for outside critters. .45acp as a back-up. I have a 116lb furry property alarm system that will give me time to grab the ol' Mossberg propped up next to the bed.

MLeake
August 3, 2009, 11:55 AM
... is to keep one eye closed when lights come up, then reopen it after light goes out. Does a decent job of keeping the eye that was closed adapted for night - the process of adapting can otherwise take around 30 minutes, according to flight physiologists.

Vanya
August 3, 2009, 03:11 PM
Pilot trick for keeping night vision in presence of bright lighting...
... is to keep one eye closed when lights come up, then reopen it after light goes out.
Heck, I do that every time I go to the loo in the middle of the night. Works great. :)

Glenn E. Meyer
August 3, 2009, 04:01 PM
The pilot trick negates the use of the tactical light. You want to see your opponent.

So if you have one eye open, it gets blasted in my scenario of light splash as it is called. If you open the other eye after turning off the light - the light isn't there anymore.

Unless, you think the light is like a flash bang - it doesn't help to shut an eye.

MLeake
August 3, 2009, 04:54 PM
The tactical light isn't just to illuminate and identify; it's also a non-lethal weapon, in the sense that you can blind him even worse than you hinder your own vision. Even if your open eye gets momentarily blinded, it should adapt to the light before the BG/unknown's do, since your eye is receiving reflected light whereas his eyes are receiving direct light. It shouldn't take too long for your illuminated eye to adjust sufficiently for a quick ID of friendly vs intruder.

Unless your eyes are particularly light sensitive, that is.

Meanwhile, if you decide to keep the light on, you can always open the other eye too.

I don't have the same problems adjusting to reflected light from my SureFire that you describe; I do find that it defeats my night sights, because the reflected light usually puts my sights in sharp silhouette.

However, using the one eye closed technique, you do have the option to flashblind the unknown with a quick spotlight, then turn the light back off and move to a different position, using the eye you had closed while he tries to reorient both his flashblinded eyes.

I'm not too keen on holding a steady light on the guy; it illuminates him, but it also tells him where to fire, even if he can't see you. Spray and pray around arm's length from the light by the BG can ruin your day.

Glenn E. Meyer
August 4, 2009, 10:09 AM
This is a technical disagreement. Both of you are going to be discombobulated by a really bright light. Whether the differential between lighted and lightee makes a difference is an empirical question. I know that I was toasted by the 9P when fully dark adapted.

Also, maintain eye discipline in a dynamic situation might be difficult under stress. Which eye goes to the sights?

I'm not enamored with the blinding concept. My experience with guys using nights as they entered is that it makes you a big target. If you are flashing away from me, so I'm not blinded - I shoot you.

Sounds great for a head on opponent close up but that's it. Cynical me.


BTW - we are hijacking Kayla's thread. So:

1. Ignore the advice that tells a newbie to get a shotgun. Gun world cliche.
2. I forgot if you bought a gun. If you haven't get a quality 38 SPL or 357 revolver - load it with some 38 SPL defensive ammo.
3. Read the www.corneredcat.com
4. Get training from a reasonable and reputable outfit near you - women's course if you can to avoid commandos.

MLeake
August 4, 2009, 08:36 PM
Out of curiosity, Kayla, did you ever get a security type camera, or even a small fiber-optic, to record this person's movement around your entryway? It seems to me that since he's a repeat offender, you might get some video of him and the cops might then be able to identify him.

R1145
August 4, 2009, 09:27 PM
R1145, I think you probably mean yards, here, not feet...

My bad, I stand corrected. Rule of thumb = 1" of spread per yard of range.

Vanya
August 5, 2009, 10:26 AM
BTW - we are hijacking Kayla's thread
Out of curiosity, Kayla...
Er, no... actually you were hijacking Kjeil's thread. Kayla's thread is over here (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=370031).
:)

MLeake
August 5, 2009, 05:17 PM
... or the ill effects of typing when fatigued...

Sorry.

rdhrt
August 5, 2009, 07:56 PM
I have always thought my shotgun first in home that is,otherwise it is rifle first,handgun second choice.

45Gunner
August 10, 2009, 05:02 PM
Shotgun is the great equalizer. It is very easy to second guess and everyone has their two cents to add which is really great. The truth of the matter is that unless one is a combat veteran of either a war or the street, the reality of a face to face gun battle is not a pleasant prospect. You are nervous and scared and believe me the perp or perps are too. Your great advantage is that you know the house.

I keep and handgun on the night table and an AR -15 and a Shotgun on a rack above the bed. If I hear things go bump in the night, I grab the shotgun. In my particular case, the bedrooms are on the second floor. My dog always alerts me when something is not right...sometimes its just a stray cat running thru the yard. The point being is that in the dead of night, I'm not fully awake and may not be able to fully comprehend what is going on. My shotgun will make up for my shortcomings.

Stevie-Ray
August 10, 2009, 05:07 PM
The point being is that in the dead of night, I'm not fully awake and may not be able to fully comprehend what is going on. My shotgun will make up for my shortcomings. Hmmm....OK, I'll bite. How does it do that, exactly?

one-shot-one
August 12, 2009, 11:47 AM
when:
1. all those in front of me are BG's.
2. i believe most/all targets will be inside of 30 yards.
3. i believe that i will NOT have to move very far away from my ammo supply.

buzz_knox
August 12, 2009, 12:03 PM
The point being is that in the dead of night, I'm not fully awake and may not be able to fully comprehend what is going on. My shotgun will make up for my shortcomings.


I presume you mean that shotgun's mythical ability to hit vital areas without even an attempt at aiming will make up for your not being fully awake. In such a situation, the first question is why are you shooting to begin with?

BloodyBucket03
August 13, 2009, 01:19 AM
I have my Mossberg 500 by my bed in arms length reach. It's my first choice for HD Defense. I have my other firearms locked in the safe. I have a surefire mounted on it for bumps in the middle of the night.