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fireroad
July 27, 2009, 02:06 AM
Is possable to piller bed a wood stock without glass bedding it? The reason I ask is I would like to bed a 700 mountain rifle, but those thin barrels need the pressure points to shoot striaght. If I glass bed I'm afraid I'll gain some clearance between the barrel and the stock. Do toy need to get new screw when you pillar bed? Has anyone tried this product...

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=6908/Product/REMINGTON_700_BEDDING_PILLAR_SYSTEM

Scorch
July 27, 2009, 04:24 PM
Adding pillars is a good way to eliminate crushing the stock when tightening action screws. You can do the same thing with epoxy, but that's up to you. Glass bedding will not change the outward appearance of the rifle nor increase clearances.

fireroad
July 27, 2009, 08:30 PM
From what I understand glass bedding reduces movement but does not help with stock crush. My 700 mountian is extremely susecptable to stock crush. "Ernie the gunsmith" has a pretty good explanation of why it doesn't make sense to glass bed without pillar bedding. I'm curious is pillar bedding without stock bedding would have a positive affect, if only to prevent stock crush.

http://www.erniethegunsmith.com/

longrifles, Inc
July 28, 2009, 08:59 AM
Is possable to piller bed a wood stock without glass bedding it? The reason I ask is I would like to bed a 700 mountain rifle, but those thin barrels need the pressure points to shoot striaght. If I glass bed I'm afraid I'll gain some clearance between the barrel and the stock. Do toy need to get new screw when you pillar bed? Has anyone tried this product...


Short answer. YES, you can get by with just pillars.

There are some caveats to this though.

1. If doing this, I advocate it only be done on stocks that have a high resin content. (like laminates and/or synthetics)

Remember, the purpose behind bedding a rifle is to provide a tension free environment for the barreled action to nest into. It should be as inert to environmental conditions as possible. Done successfully, the rifle should hold a consistent zero in a broader variety of conditions.

What it can't do is polish a ****. A quality bedding job will make a great gun exceptional, a good gun, great, or a decent rifle "better".

I have done this very thing twice with guns I've owned. One happens to be the hardest hitting gun I own. It was built on a bet and it violates almost every cardinal rule of accurate rifle building. Yet it hammers five shot groups under .100" of an inch with factory B/H ammo. (.096" being the best I've gotten yet)

Don't be afraid to try it, but just be realistic.

Scorch
July 28, 2009, 01:23 PM
From what I understand glass bedding reduces movement but does not help with stock crush. My 700 mountian is extremely susecptable to stock crush. You can eliminate the "stock crush" effect by routing out the stock bolt holes abd pouring pillars when you glass bed. I do this as a routine thing whenever I glass bed a rifle. It ensures a consistent tightening of the stock bolts and eliminates crushing the stock.
"Ernie the gunsmith" has a pretty good explanation of why it doesn't make sense to glass bed without pillar bedding"Ernie the Gunsmith" may be referring to people who do a "skin bedding" job, which is a very thin layer of resin over the existing wood stock. This type of bedding is not the proper way to bed a rifle, although it will deliver some accuracy gains by evening out contact in the bedding. I have seen as many pillar bedding jobs screwed up as glass bedding jobs screwed up, so it is by no means foolproof. I personally believe it is just a way for some smiths to sell another service they should be doing as part of a good bedding job anyway.

longrifles, Inc
July 28, 2009, 02:33 PM
Here's two photos of what I was talking about.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/nesikachad/GUN%20PICS/DSC_0044.jpg

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/nesikachad/GUN%20PICS/DSC_0045.jpg

boy412
July 28, 2009, 07:19 PM
I hope I'm not thread jacking here...but I am considering having this done to my Savage 10FCP McMillan. What would one expect to pay for such a service?

Cheers...

bear308
July 28, 2009, 11:27 PM
For what it is worth, I am not a gunsmith. I am a weekend hobbyist that messes with guns for entertainment so please keep that in mind when I attempt to pass on an experience that I have had that might be helpful.

I recently bought a Remington 700 3006 with a synthetic stock as a project primarily to build a brake and practice barrel threading. After the barrel and brake were finished, I couldn’t keep myself from messing with the stock. The first thing I was concerned about was the pressure tabs in the forearm and wondered if free floating the barrel would destroy accuracy of the thin barrel. I couldn’t seem to find a consensus to that answer. I was also concerned that if I varied the torque of the action bolts that the stock would crush and vary the pressure exerted on the pressure tabs in the forearm which would then result in point of impact change and group size (vibration) variations. So…I installed pillars to eliminate the crush. When installing pillars, one must clamp the action in the stock while the epoxy sets. Did I maintain the same position/pressure on the forearm tabs as the factory installation? I suspect that I didn’t so I relieved and sanded the stock and installed bedding to provide a stress free stock except for the pressure tabs. I also installed some aluminum in the forearm to reduce the potential of stock flexing and variable pressure on the tabs. I guess what I am trying to pass along is that no matter what you do concerning pillars or bedding the pressure on the forearm tabs will probably change point of impact and accuracy. If you install pillars only, the stock crush and variable pressure on the tabs will be eliminated and you will have a “fixed” pressure on the tabs.

I shot some groups and was less than impressed with the performance so I started checking the barrel clearance in the forearm and discovered that the bottom of the barrel was slightly in contact with the stock in addition to the tabs. I am therefore assuming that messing with the stock disturbed the original factory installation. At this point I decided to remove the tabs and free float the barrel. It now shoots less than 1 MOA with factory Winchester 165 SP. I suspect that it will do a little better if I hand load some match grade 175 HPBTs AND I was a more proficient with holding even pressures, breath and trigger control, etc.

I guess the readers digest version of the above is that installing the pillars alone could be a crapshoot. The pillars will eliminate stock crush but are not a guarantee for improving accuracy by themselves. The receiver might still have uneven stress and the resulting tab pressure may or may not be what you want.

I hope it addressed your question and was somewhat helpful.

Alleykat
July 29, 2009, 08:34 AM
Asking questions based on a false premise ("need those pressure points...blah, blah, blah...") won't get you a lot of cogent responses! :D

scoobydoo6906
August 16, 2009, 12:15 AM
from what I understand free floating even a thin barrel shouldn't be detrimental to its accuracy potential in theory. my understanding of what makes a accurate rifle is the consistency of vibration in the barrel. heavier barrels are easier to get consistency out of but a lightweight barrels can shoot just as well. I myself would float the barrel and go from there. I am by no means a expert on this but those are my thoughts.

boy412
August 16, 2009, 11:42 AM
My gun's barrel is floated from the factory.

I'll re-state that the only reason I might want pillars is to prevent stock crush by over-torquing the action bolts. I have the Wheeler tourque driver, so while I'm not overly concerned if its one of those things that will help avoid this problem then why not do it?

M_E_
August 18, 2009, 01:25 PM
I have a friend in the rifle & stock manufacturing business. We were just talking about this yesterday after a trip to the range. The pillars are needed to keep the stock from compressing as you tighten the action screws. His fiberglass or carbon fiber (graphite) stocks can take the compression because of the filler material he uses. But since everyone wants the pillars, he places them into the stocks as they are being manufactured. Can't remember if that's prior or after he CNCs the inletting in the stocks. I would still free float the barrel in the mountain rifle.

And if it still doesn't shoot the way you want it, do glass bed the rifle. I really would glass bed the rifle as well as the pillar bedding. Do both.

If that doesn't work then order a new stock for it. Bed it when you recieve it. Or, you can send the rifle to them & let them install the stock & mate it to your rifle.