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View Full Version : .44 bounces off hog skull WARNING!!!


hogdogs
July 25, 2009, 08:12 PM
WARNING!!! THE FOLLOWING VIDEO HAS SOME POTTY MOUTH WORDS!!!!
For anyone who wishes to claim to know ANYTHING about what rounds to use on a charging hog, I present the following video.
The cuss words are pretty justified as the .44 rounds bounced off a small hog.
Now ya'll see why I will use nothing under .30-30 in c-fire rifle but prefer the blunt force trauma that a shotgun slug offers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rI0l29YGA-c&feature=related
Brent

Hellbilly5000
July 25, 2009, 08:15 PM
that is a small hog too

Fat White Boy
July 25, 2009, 08:16 PM
It is better to shoot them in the ear to coup 'em...

SAIGAFISH
July 25, 2009, 08:20 PM
What the %%$#$%%. How is that possible did he have light loads
or what.

hogdogs
July 25, 2009, 08:22 PM
For the wild stuff I catch, I have the liberty to just put a pellet rifle or .22lr barrel over into the cake and pop them at a perfect 90* degree angle and it makes a right fine little hole right into the "think tank". I never woulda thunk a .44 would bounce off from under 6 feet like that though... specially on a small pig that don't even warrant the term "hog" in the hog dogger world.
Brent

hogdogs
July 25, 2009, 08:23 PM
saiga, As you see, the powder charge was enuff to fully mushroom the bullet...:confused:
Brent

MLeake
July 25, 2009, 08:59 PM
... and useful, but would have been more so if the .44 bullets being used had been identified. Saw a guy make a mess using 240gr JHP (mess = wounded hog that almost got away)... I wonder what would have happened with HC.

That said, I hope the antis don't find the video. The guys laughing at the wounded hog aggravated me, and I hunt every so often. I can just imagine my sister's response...

Daryl
July 25, 2009, 09:49 PM
No way for me to know, but my guess is Speer Gold Dot bullets or the equivalent (probably about 180-200 grain) loaded in .44 special cases, or to .44 special velocities.

If that had been a heavy JSP instead of a fragile hollow point, and loaded to top velocity, it would have been a different story I'm thinkin'.

Ditto for a good cast bullet.

I've shot a lot of various stuff with 300 grain JSP's from my .45 Colt Vaquero, and the bullets don't do that. They'll shatter solid rock as big as a basketball.

Who knows though? I've seen some strange things happen to bullets over the years.

Daryl

SAIGAFISH
July 25, 2009, 09:58 PM
Ya you are right that bullet was fully mushroomed huh.
Hogs do have a pretty thick scull plate thow i think the
kill shot from the front is farly low in between snout and brow
but im not real sure .no hogs in oregon,thank you jebus

Yithian
July 25, 2009, 10:14 PM
And you guys and gals didn't believe me when I said I bounced a 30-30 LeveRevolution off a grow sows head at 10 feet!

Now I stick with semiautomatics. More bullets downrange is a good thing.

wyobohunter
July 26, 2009, 05:07 AM
Wyobohunter brings 45-70 w/hard cast bullets.

Double Naught Spy
July 26, 2009, 06:40 AM
I believe that if you look closely, you will see that the "bullet" is just a jacket. Check out the video when they zoom in on it on the ground and will will see a split nearly to the base and no lead showing. Jackets sometimes strip off when entering hard materials.

Dragon55
July 26, 2009, 06:57 AM
When I was growing up 'out in the sticks' I used to help this old guy kill hogs for people. They paid him to kill, gut, and hang them up.

Anyway. he always used a little .22 bolt action after I got one hemmed up for him. He would put the muzzle an inch or so below the eyes and the hog would drop straight down.

Once, he had a little automatic of some kind.... I'm guessing a .25?? Anyway when he shot this old sow it just made her mad. He said, "Boy, go get that rifle from the truck".
30 minutes later when I had finally corralled her again he dropped her as always.

.......... Also, although these folks paid him for this task it was sort of traditional for them to give him a good size slab of the tenderloin. He also gave me a couple of these at days end. This was better than the money he paid me.

Ahh for the good ol' days.

Hawg
July 26, 2009, 09:20 AM
I once saw a guy shoot a hog with a 30-30. She charged him and he just stood there cranking rounds out of that 30-30 til she fell dead at his feet. He hit her six times.

freedom475
July 26, 2009, 09:27 AM
Yeah...I was pretty much disrespected by guys who obviously new very little on the subject, when I reported my findings of a 9MM on hogs.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=335720

I aggree that a hard cast in the 44 would offer a different story.

MLeake
July 26, 2009, 09:36 AM
Your round of choice wasn't the issue. Your post had made it seem like .22LR was a superior penetrator over a 9mm. You were making an apples and oranges comparison, though; 9mm from frontal between the eyes, vs a butcher's shot with a .22 through the side of the head.

The 9mm would have worked from that position, too. I think that's why you caught flack on that thread. Neither one is a good hunting round for hogs, but either can work in very limited circumstances. It is very dependent on your ability to put the round consistently in a particular area of the head.

The frontal plate isn't a good idea for most handguns, and apparently for some rifles, too.

Magi
July 26, 2009, 09:37 AM
I would be using FMJ's...

freakshow10mm
July 26, 2009, 10:19 AM
It's easy to speculate about cartridge choice but the bullet selection is one I'm more concerned about.

A 150gr 30-30 from a rifle has 1903fpe and the 170gr has 1774fpe. The 240gr jacketed bullet from a 44 pistol has 1334fpe and the 300gr has 1170fpe. There is roughly a 575-600fpe difference in muzzle energy. The .44 Magnum is well respected as the big game handgun cartridge. I don't think the cartridge is to blame here, it's the bullet choice.

MLeake
July 26, 2009, 11:08 AM
... if it were, then a 180gr JHP would spank a 305gr HC out of a .44mag. FPE is affected more by velocity than mass.

Penetration is affected more by shape, hardness, and sectional density. The 305gr hammerhead HC I use in a .44 will easily outpenetrate a 240JHP or JSP.

So I agree with Freakshow that it can be more about bullet construction than cartridge selection, but I'm a bit confused by the bullet choices in his example.

LukeA
July 26, 2009, 11:15 AM
I think this is either a hoax or the jacket didn't penetrate the skull but the lead core did.

PT111
July 26, 2009, 11:29 AM
When I was growing up 'out in the sticks' I used to help this old guy kill hogs for people. They paid him to kill, gut, and hang them up.

Anyway. he always used a little .22 bolt action after I got one hemmed up for him. He would put the muzzle an inch or so below the eyes and the hog would drop straight down.

Growing up I watched my Grandfather take many a hog with a little bolt action .22 and he would shoot from about 3 feet. The only time one didn't drop the hog immediately was when it turned just as he shot and it bounced off and hit another one. Both hogs started struggling and we had to butcher two that day instead of the one we had planned.

deadcoyote
July 26, 2009, 11:33 AM
But I've always used the cheap rifled remington 1 oz:D slugs in 16 gauge to kill hogs. It only takes one, but i've also never shot one in the head, just broadside it in the vitals.

hogdogs
July 26, 2009, 11:44 AM
I am not 100% positive it isn't staged. If it were staged using 2 blanks first they did real good matching the reports with the 3rd being a live round.

I will say that the separated jacket theory is out of the realm of possibility. 2 rounds to the head suffering a separation of jacket but penetration of core would have left a hog live and awake sharpening his tusks right before the final shot that obviously does penetrate and kill.
easy to fake though... a little handy camera work to allow for dropping a previously retrieved mushroomed round for the next camera shot.
Brent

Old Grump
July 26, 2009, 12:13 PM
This is why I prefer JFP over JHP. Might be a moot point in a SD situation but I am a handgun hunter and prefer my bullets to go in before they open up. Knew a guy who always took out his hogs with a 38 scl without a hitch. One year switched to 357 and it took 3 shots. I think it was the difference between his 158 gr LRN which worked and his 125 gr JHP which didn't. Energy numbers sometimes lie to you.

ammo.crafter
July 26, 2009, 12:13 PM
I did have a hog that took five rounds from a 41mag at close range. switched to 444 Marlin with 300 gr hard cast. No fun running thru the wood with 300 pounds of ribs closing in fast.
Much prefer to have 'em on the BBQ

hardluk1
July 26, 2009, 12:24 PM
I have talked about bullet design before ,If you put a hardcast in that hog it will put it down for good but in my younger days i learn about SP's and HP rounds early on and just stopped hunting hugs with them . I did use a 357 but with 180 gr hc rounds and they will break both shoulders or punch i nice neat hole in the head, There are 200 gr now from BB too. Like said to but not me doing it in the wild ,a 22 behind the ear works wonders on a hog. Turns them off so you can bleed them dry. but only in a pin setting.

W. C. Quantrill
July 26, 2009, 02:25 PM
Neighbor kid that I grew up with had one of the old Savage 110 bolt guns in .30-30. He reloaded his shells with 150 gr FMJ's that he traded from someone else. They worked fine in the bolt gun magazine, and they penetrated hogs heads.


I have looked at that film several times and I cant get it in my head that that .44 mag would bounce of a shoats head at 3 feet. I've butchered at least a hundred hogs and killed them all with a .22. I'm with whoever said that this was posed. My .45 with hard cast Keith SWC's over 11 grains of Unique would have shot completely through that hog. The .44 should have at least that much energy.....I'm thinking this is difficult for me to believe.

30-30remchester
July 26, 2009, 03:17 PM
Most all failure of one caliber or another can be lack of power or lack of penatration. Penatration has all to do with bullet preformance. I have only shot one very large boar and I didnt shoot him in the head. However from my years of hunting I cant help believe if a hard cast heavy bullet would have been used it would have penatrated. Many bear guides hate soft point and hollow point handgun ammo.

langenc
July 26, 2009, 03:48 PM
I kinda had that happen with a feral cat and a 22LR

zxcvbob
July 26, 2009, 04:00 PM
My dad used to pop 'em between the eyes from about 3 or 4 feet away with a .22LR rifle. That always stunned them, then we'd roll them over and stick 'em with a butcher knife.

simonkenton
July 26, 2009, 09:26 PM
We were going to have a pig roast down in central Georgia.
We went out to this pig farm and bought a hog "on the hoof" from the pig farmer.
This pig was bigger than the hog in this video.
Remember, all wild hogs in America are closely related to domestic pigs. Other than the little Javelina in Texas, all of the American wild hogs are descendants of domestic pigs. This hog that we wanted to roast looked a lot like the pig in this video, only the our hog was bigger.

I shot this hog in the head with a Ruger Single Six, .22 lr.
One shot, lights out.

The wild hog did not land in a UFO. It is just another mammal, not that different from you or I. Hog heart valves are routinely transplanted into humans.
Hog skulls are made of bone just like yours and mine, and if you hit them right with a bullet the pig will die quickly.

MLeake
July 26, 2009, 09:58 PM
... because some wealthy folk, the Vanderbilts I think, decided to import Russian boar so they could hunt them. Some were imported into the Asheville area of NC, and I've read about others that were released in the northeast. Not sure what their numbers were, but there's been some crossbreeding.

Of course, many and probably the great majority are descended from domesticated pigs; the numbers in many areas have led to "pest" designation for feral hogs.

This is kind of like the English lord who wanted to hunt rabbits in Australia in the 1800's. He imported some, not realizing they had no predators in Australia. The rabbits mulitiplied rapidly, and wrecked a lot of the Australian ecology.

freedom475
July 27, 2009, 12:15 AM
The 22 is quite deadly because of its small nose.

I ran a couple numbers just to see some figures. Just for info referance much like the the Taylor KO value... (fps x gr. weight x meplat devided by 7000 (gr. in a LB)= KO Value)the numbers mean nothing other than a way to compair one round to another witout using the Ft Lb tables, we all know FT Lbs. mean very little when it comes to hunting situations. But this helps to refurance the force on the nose of the boolit/penitration possibility

Fps x weight of boolit in Lbs, divided by nose area in inches (wad cutter measurement)...

.....the 22LR, 40gr. WC @1200fps gives a number of 184

....the 44mag, 240gr. WC@1200fps gives a number of 281,

now if you take the 44 and expand it out to 3/4" (like the one from the video), this number drops down to 92!! HALF of the penitration number of the 22LR... Now it kind of makes sense how the 44 failed so badly

Yeah I know hogs don't do math:D but it does give a look at how the 44 could preform so poorly with SP of HP ammo. Diameter just gets too big for the weight, to allow for good penitration..... and they were probly using lighter bullets than the 240gr I used in the above figures.

Just for fun I ran this formula with the 475L.. a 430gr.WC hard cast @1200fps gives a number of 421.... and the 458 mag with a 500gr@2200fps gives a refurance number of 952! HELLO!

I hope this formula is helpful to someone ... if it is not please don't drag me accross the coals...(to badly..LOL)

Wild Bill Bucks
July 27, 2009, 11:38 AM
Don't know much about tables and charts and the like, but I did notice two things that stick out in my mind about this video. #1 the guy shooting isn't wearing any obvious hearing protection. If I shoot my 44, 3 times in a row, my ears would be bleeding, and I would have to holler for anyone to hear that was with me. #2 there is no leaves being blown around from the percussion. If I shoot my 44 that close to anything on the ground, it will blow leaves off the ground for 2 or 3 feet around.

My thinking is he is shooting some kind of cowboy round with a really cheap made bullet.

I load my own ammo, and have shot several hogs with them and have never had anything happen like that. I've shot hogs from 10 ft. out to 30 yards and most of mine takes the side of the head off the exiting side.

Double Naught Spy
July 27, 2009, 12:33 PM
Aside from the issue of the jacket possibly bouncing back and not the lead itself, I noticed a couple of other things about the shooting of the pig.

The first and second shots generate much less physical impact movement of the pig than the third shot. Why? There is no damage to the face or head of the pig from the first couple of shots. Why?

Well maybe because the first shot actually hits the downed tree first. It appears to continue on and hit the back of the pig. The second shot appears to pass between the pig and the ground, below the pig's left ear. In other words, the shot doesn't hit the pig solidly either.

The third shot is supposed to be into the pig's eye. Yet the closeup at the end shows that at 3-4 feet, the shot clearly missed the pig's eye. However, the pig was significantly impacted by the third shot.

Conclusion? The shooter is a crappy shot. The first shot went through wood first, likely stripping the jacket off, and impacting the pig as fragments, not as a solid slug. The second shot doesn't actually impact the pig directly and likely missed below the pig. The third shot does directly impact the pig and the pig is finally put out of its misery, but the shooter clearly missed his stated target.

tmd11111
July 27, 2009, 01:02 PM
You guys aren't implying that things aren't as they appear :eek:.......

Havent you ever heard that if it's on the internet then it must be true :cool:.

mrmuffy
July 28, 2009, 09:44 PM
I saw a DNR officer shoot a problem bear in the skull plate with a 44 mag pistol.
Same result.
- Only made the bear mad as hell.
The bear had been trapped in a cage several times before and had been relocated 30 or 40 miles away but kept coming back to the same residential area to get into trouble over and over again.
The decision was made to put it down this time.
After he calmed down a bit my dad put a 22 LR in it's brain.

Edward429451
July 28, 2009, 10:33 PM
The moral of the story is don't shoot fancy jacketed hollowpoints when solid hardcast lead should be used. Silly rabbit, jacket hollowpoints aren't for hunting!!

Read about Larry Kelly shooting a bear 6 times in the face with 44 JHP's point blank when it came in his tent and they flattened out on the the face and didnt penetrate, someone with a Rifle had to make sure he could write the story...:D

Uncle Buck
July 28, 2009, 11:19 PM
Bullet-proof Hogs! And I thought the chipmunks were getting out of control.

T. O'Heir
July 29, 2009, 03:22 PM
"...stick with semiautomatics. More bullets downrange is a good thing...." No it isn't.
Looked like that idiot was using a JHP. Obviously won't penetrate.
"...jacket hollowpoints aren't for hunting!!..." They are. Just not hogs when you don't know where to put the bullet.

azredhawk44
July 29, 2009, 04:33 PM
This is why I don't use jacketed ANYTHING in my .44.

Nothing but hardcast lead. When it REALLY matters it's a premium gas checked offering from Beartooth or Precision Cast, but my plinking fodder bullet is nearly as good and only slightly softer.

Still a hell of a lot harder than the lead wire crap that they swage into jackets and pass off as deep penetrators.

I really wish they made Belt Mountain Punch Bullets in .429 diameter.

W. C. Quantrill
July 29, 2009, 04:34 PM
A while back Ted Nugent had a show on where he stuck an arrow in a hog, and the hog looked around and spotted Ted and commenced in a rapid fashion to charge him. Ted dropped his bow, pulled his .40 cal pistol and busted that hog about 3 times in the head at about 10 feet and dropped it. Sure didnt have any of those bounce off its head,,,,old Nuge was sweating blood on that one.

L_Killkenny
July 29, 2009, 06:19 PM
That vid is total BS. I don't care which bullet you use in a .44 that hog would be dead if hit. It wasn't hit, period. Total joke and I can't believe you posted it Brent.

LK

SavageSniper
July 29, 2009, 07:30 PM
OK I have shot enough critters to know that almost anything can and will happen, you know the Murphys law thing. I too looked at this vid many times. What puzzled me is the pigs hind legs. They never really move much or open apart. Either the first shot was a spine shot or as I think, the pig was already paralized when the filming started. If the bullet bounced off its head, I do not believe that it would bounce a few inches.
I am calling BS on this one, and I will stand by my 44 rifle for hogs. I also do not use Nerf loads either:D

YARDDOG(1)
July 29, 2009, 08:16 PM
I know for a FACT that my 4in Ruger .357, One shot kills on multipal hogs up to & above 200lb Whith SJSP some relodes & some 125gn. I'm not saying hogs aint tuff but Only one on WALL 3 & 1/2 in Tusks 220LB. With a BOW & yes he went 75 yrds ;)

Farmland
July 29, 2009, 09:26 PM
What a lot of hunters but no pig farmers? I guess some of you hunters should be talking to us farmers. It is possible to bounce 44 Mag rounds off of a pigs head all day long period.

The pig has a hard head period. There are two places to shoot a pig in the head with success.

1.) Pigs can be shot in the forehead at a spot just above and between the eyes. Draw an imaginary lines from the base of the ears to opposite eyes and shoot at the point where they cross. The barrel of the gun must be held at a right angle to the line of the snout and head or else the slug will travel above or below the brain or simple back at the shooter.

2.) The other chosen point is behind the ear with the shoot being aim down towards the snout.

Shooting in the head any other place is risking the shooter and plain wrong.

Come on there has to be other farmers to teach the common hunter on how to do this right.

Farmland
July 29, 2009, 09:28 PM
PS I have seen enough pigs/hogs shot in the head with many different guns from the 44Mag to high power rifles, the bullet doesn't penetrate and the pig/hog just gets a little mad.

Double Naught Spy
July 29, 2009, 10:58 PM
Actually, I don't know what you think is so hard on a pig's head. It isn't like their bones are substantially thicker or stronger than like-sized animals. In many parts, the human skull is thicker. Simply put, there is nothing particularly special about the hardness of a pig's head. There may be something to the angles involved, but then what you have are glancing shots as opposed to bounces.

Now pigs do have some substantial musculature on each side of the skull for powering their manidbles, but that isn't going to be an issue with forehead shots which are what the video appeared to be trying to show.

Their mandibles are another story all together. They have mandible with bone akin to what you would see in cattle or horse in terms of robusticity, at least on the large hogs, but mandibles aren't being discussed here.

barnetmill
July 29, 2009, 11:32 PM
Elmer Keith years ago wrote about such things happening with elk when hit by what I think was a colt revolver load 38-40 soft points that were not loaded very heavily. They flattened out on the skull. Perhaps the skull of tht small pig could be compared to the skull of a mature elk. Anyway the loads used on the pig could not have been heavy or other wise the impact would have been much greater, especially if the slug did not get through the skull. Keith decided that semiwadcutter hard cast bullets were the best to use on big game. He is considered to be one of the fathers of the modern .44 mag pistol.

Gunforall
July 29, 2009, 11:58 PM
Im no expert, but i do alot of hog hunting. Not sure what that fella was doin in the vid, but you never shoot a hog in the head unless you can hit em between the eyes. That is a Hogs strongest point because its his only defence, his head and of course tusk.

phil mcwilliam
July 30, 2009, 04:57 AM
I have killed hundreds of hogs in over 30 years of hunting, some with my S&W629 44 Magnum. Using 240 grain Winchester Hollowpoint factory ammunition the bullets definately do not bounce off the skull of a pig at that distance. A lot of people handload their 44 Magnums to reduce recoil for target practice & then make the mistake of taking these rounds hunting. What is shown could happen as some people download their 44's so the bullet barely dribbles out the end of the barrel.

tmd11111
July 30, 2009, 06:03 AM
The shooter is a crappy shot. The first shot went through wood first, likely stripping the jacket off, and impacting the pig as fragments, not as a solid slug. The second shot doesn't actually impact the pig directly and likely missed below the pig. The third shot does directly impact the pig and the pig is finally put out of its misery, but the shooter clearly missed his stated target.

Ding Ding Ding Ding

Ladies and Gentleman we have a winner.......
Rewatch the video in slow motion and you will see that the shooter is clearly a lousy aim.

At the 17 second mark you can see the chunck of wood that gets taken out with the first shot. At around the 30 or 31 second mark you can see the puff of dirt below the pig....

Two shots, two misses. :eek:

When the shooter picks up the bullet it appears to be just a stripped jacket without the lead. Most definately from shooting it through the log at such a close range. Had it hit the hogs head directly it would have more then likely flattened Not mushroomed.

Hunley
August 2, 2009, 08:32 PM
I shot a small one with a .308 in the chest that came out his belly and dropped his intestines out.

He ran off, so I shot him again. He still kept coming at me and 5 shots of .38 Special +P (DoubleTap no less) didn't do the job. It did scare him enough to make him run into some briars where I'm guessing he eventually died.

I'm gonna stick to 12ga. slugs from now on.