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onthejon55
July 25, 2009, 03:40 PM
So a few months ago during spring break i decided i would take my sister out to the movies and spend some good quality time with her before i go off to college next year. After the movie i was waiting for her to finish using the restroom when i noticed there were three young men standing outside the bathroom laughing and looking my way.

"no big deal" i thought. after my sister came out of the restroom and we started making out way to the door one of the young men yelled some horrible, sex related comment about my little sister loud enough for me and her to hear it. At this point my temper flared and i made the mistake of telling them to go F*** themselves and showed them a certain hand gesture.

At this point the largest kid of the group (6'2", 180lbs). starts walking towards me and yelling something about beating my A**. I realized at that point that i really should have kept my mouth shut and proceeded to bee line across the parking lot for the my car telling my sister that we really need to go before this kid trys to fight me.

As soon as we reach the car i unlock it and tell my sister to get inside and lock the door. The kid was about 10 yrds from the car still walking strait for me when i decided to unholster my Walther P22 and keep it behind my back in order to not make a scene in case he changes his mind.

The kid walks within 15 feet of me starts yelling at me telling me i need to apologize and that if i dnt he is going to beat my a**. I very calmly hold my left handout and tell him repeated that he needs to leave and just walk away. Continues the yelling and keeps scooting closer and when he was withing 5 feet of me i pull the gun from around my back and hold it in front of my chest, pointed down at the ground, in plain view and tell him once again in a firm voice that he needs to leave.

He looked at the gun, mouthed "oh sh**" to himself and turned 180 degrees and walked back to his car without a word spoken. I looked around and realized that a bunch of people were watching and didnt even try to break up the potential fight :eek: this make me mad so instead of telling everyone sorry or explaining myself i just got in my car and left.

my mistakes(as i see them):

1.In hind sight i realize that yelling back at a bunch of teenagers was asking for trouble but when someone yells at your little sister its almost impossible not to voice your opinion.

2. Using the gun to scare him rather than how its supposed to be used- i did this because i realized that this kid was just looking for an easy fight and would have stopped if he had met any resistance. I also didnt want to draw down on someone in the middle of a parking lot with 10-15 people watching.


Tell me what you think i did right and wrong! any and all opinions welcome.

MLeake
July 25, 2009, 03:46 PM
... it would have been better to shrug it off. The guys were offensive, but not threatening. Although I could see where your sister might have felt intimidated by their comments and attitudes.

From a legal perspective, if things had devolved to shots fired, you would have created some problems for your own SD defense, IE you mouthed off and gestured in a way that could be argued by a prosecutor to have been escalatory. Escalation on your part can nullify, or at least badly complicate a claim of SD.

You might also have been better off to keep the gun out of view, and just apologize to the guy in the parking lot. This would have required swallowing pride, but would have put you in much less legal jeopardy of a brandishing or assault charge.

SAIGAFISH
July 25, 2009, 03:47 PM
you and one lippy teen no need for the gun give him an a$$ whoopin.
as long as he is unarmed.

scottaschultz
July 25, 2009, 03:48 PM
Of course you want to protect your sister, but...

Were you paying attention in your CCW class? You did take one, right?

There was an old saying when I grew up, "Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me."

Would have been so quick with your initial response if you weren't carrying a gun? A weapon in the hands of a civilian is meant to protect your life or that of someone else when you are in imminent danger.

Scott

onthejon55
July 25, 2009, 03:53 PM
you and one lippy teen no need for the gun give him an a$$ whoopin. as long as he is unarmed.

He was 6'2" and 180lbs. Im 5'5" and 130 lbs on a good day.:(

plus my sister was with me so if he knocked me out she would have been as his mercy

SAIGAFISH
July 25, 2009, 04:01 PM
get alittle hand to hand training it greatly asist in dealing with the average
sized male 6ft 175.did not mean to offend sorry.

Brian Pfleuger
July 25, 2009, 04:04 PM
Getting in your car and driving away would be the prudent move. There was absolutely no reason to speak to or respond to him in any way. It appears to me that you had all the time in the world to just leave, and you chose to stay and risk a confrontation.

Would you have stayed if you were NOT armed?

Composer_1777
July 25, 2009, 04:06 PM
He wouldn't have hit you; i'm sure he's always just been able to intimidate everyone and if you stood up to him he wouldn't have done anything.

You only need a few self defense physical moves, a front kick to the pelvis area in this case, should knock him down.

I suggest you practice a few physical defense moves so that you are well rounded and more confident.

onthejon55
July 25, 2009, 04:10 PM
get alittle hand to hand training it greatly asist in dealing with the average sized male 6ft 175.did not mean to offend sorry.

yah i know! one of the many things i plan on doing when i have the money.

Getting in your car and driving away would be the prudent move. There was absolutely no reason to speak to or respond to him in any way.

I didnt want to get caught half way in the car and get dragged out unprepared or have him block my exit then punching out a window and pulling me out.

thats what was going through my head at the time anyways :rolleyes:

SAIGAFISH
July 25, 2009, 04:11 PM
your right pete thats probly amuch smarter choice.

SAIGAFISH
July 25, 2009, 04:14 PM
the halfway in thing is a factor

MLeake
July 25, 2009, 04:15 PM
1) Keep mouth shut and just keep walking.

2) "That's funny, guys, but you may not realize you're making xxxxx uncomfortable." Note: used this with some Army guys who were telling seriously off-color stories in the pool the other day, with some small kids swimming nearby. They seemed more oblivious than malignant, and that turned out to be the case. They were a bit embarrassed, but not hostile, and they watched their language.

3) Walk faster.

4) The, "Oh, sorry, I mistook you for somebody else" ploy.

5) The, "No offense meant, let me buy you a beer" ploy. (Note: this works best at bars and clubs)

6) Walk toward the nearest cop, security guard, or populated area, in that order of precedence.

Brian Pfleuger
July 25, 2009, 04:15 PM
I didnt want to get caught half way in the car and get dragged out unprepared or have him block my exit then punching out a windshield and pulling me out.

He's not going to "punch out a windshield" (or any window for that matter) unless he's Chuck Norris, or seriously high on something. Even if he does, DRIVE AWAY!

Get in the car, start it up and drive. If he stands in the way then honk your horn and move slowly forward. Have your sister on the cell to 911.

A gun is the absolute end of the line, last resort. You STARTED by drawing your gun, without making any reasonable attempt to leave. If he grabs at your door, drive away. If he punches at your car or breaks a window, drive away.
Driving away may include driving into (not over, into) him if he's getting truly out of hand. Using your car is better than using a gun. Give him a bump if he's getting VIOLENT, I mean really truly violent, he'll get the message.

The gun is always there if things get truly out of hand. Your job, and mine, is to make every effort to make sure things do NOT get truly out of hand.

hogdogs
July 25, 2009, 04:16 PM
"Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me."
Yeah we said that first verse alot but I learned at a young age to add... "but my left hook will knock yer teeth out!" :eek:
I can't really add to what you already knew or others mentioned...
Had it been my sister... I would sprinted right on in there and hit the biggest one in the mouth and decided who want the next knuckle samich...
Brent

Dragon55
July 25, 2009, 04:25 PM
Should not have responded verbally or 'sign' language. Probably should not have left theater 'til all was cool assuming there were several people still milling around.

Past that, me in that same situation it would tickle me to death for a punk like this to approach me and my sister indoors in front of witnesses. I just would hope that I was not carrying.

MLeake
July 25, 2009, 04:28 PM
If you're small (no offense, but at 5'5" / 130, you are small, especially if you have no H2H training), and you were with your little sister, why did you walk out into a parking lot when you thought the guys would follow you? Why not stay where the crowds were, or approach management and ask for security?

By going out into the parking lot, you gave up a lot of potential advantages, IE other people who could intervene or at least act as witnesses, the deterrent value of the crowd, trained security, etc.

We've already covered the issue of mouthing off at three guys.

I'm willing to bet that while you thought you were standing up for your sister, your sister was thinking that you were putting her in danger by shooting off your mouth at three idiots. I have a little sister of my own, and I can assure you that's how she'd have seen it.

I got on her bad side once, years ago, when I got in the face of a drunk who kept shoving his way to jockey for better position at a concert, and knocking into my sister and her friend. He almost knocked my sister off her feet, and at that point I chewed him out. Nothing happened, other than the guy backed off (his friend actually led him away), but I could have caused a fight. Odds would have been good that at the very least, we'd have been kicked out of the concert venue. I'd have probably ended up fighting the drunk and his buddy, and then been on the wrong side of the bouncers. My sister read me the riot act as the drunk and his friend moved away. Her friend played peacemaker, but she wasn't much happier about things.

I should have politely asked the dude and/or his friend to please not push women, and if that didn't produce results I should have gone looking for the bouncers. When it comes to solving social problems, pride and adrenaline are not as useful as experience and discretion - pride and adrenaline tend to be hallmarks of young males, though.

Ok, that was long-winded... but the big take-away should be that when you are with others, your actions may put them at risk, too, so out of courtesy to them you should not do anything to escalate a problem. When you are out with your sister, your concern should be for her safety, not for your ego.

Adding a firearm to the mix is just a stronger reason to try to de-escalate where possible.

SAIGAFISH
July 25, 2009, 04:28 PM
that would probly be my first thought to but ,now im a father and
trying to get in less scufles . win or loss a fight usually hurts somewere
knuckles face ect.

Brit
July 25, 2009, 04:40 PM
What ever you do, to not get hurt, and your younger Sister is not hurt either, I would say you won ... You are batting a hundred.

Every experience that you go through in life, let's you gain insight, you did OK.

Brian Pfleuger
July 25, 2009, 04:43 PM
You are batting a hundred.

You mean "a thousand"?.... batting a hundred is pretty crappy.:D;)

MLeake
July 25, 2009, 04:51 PM
... would have been not escalating the situation to the point where your sister got more frightened than necessary, and you displayed a firearm in front of bystanders. You turned a situation where she may have been embarrassed (three guys being obnoxious idiots and talking smack) into one in which you, or more importantly both of you, could have been hurt.

If you think that's batting a thousand, you are worrying me, and so are the others who think you handled everything just fine. You created the need to draw through a sequence of poor decisions. I think you understand that, or you wouldn't have posted asking how you could have handled the situation better.

This could have turned out extremely badly for you. It turned out ok, so far - by which I mean you could still hear from the police if anybody who saw you pull the gun also caught your make, model, and partial plate. You got very, very lucky. Please appreciate that fact, and in future realize that carrying a weapon is a reason to avoid trouble, not stir it up. Especially when you are with loved ones.

Brian Pfleuger
July 25, 2009, 05:00 PM
If you think that's batting a thousand,...

I'm not sure if Brit meant 100 or 1000:). He seems to think the OP did "OK" and batting 100 is NOT "ok", more like horrible, but batting 1000 is perfect....

So, I'm not sure.... maybe, Brit, you meant he's batting like 225 or something?:D;)

bigghoss
July 25, 2009, 05:41 PM
a bunch of people were watching and didnt even try to break up the potential fight

while they weren't really obligated to break up the fight, they should have been doing more then standing their slack-jawed. No smart person is going to get between to guys about to throw down, but I personally would have at least gotten out my phone and made it know I was planning on calling the cops.

as for what you did wrong, well I think you already know. sounds like that kid needs a whooping, and I feel it probably should be legal to administer one:D but from a legal standpoint you're boned.

(BH)
July 25, 2009, 06:54 PM
I know it sucks when some ignorant, animalistic meathead tries to mess with you (and more infuriating when they sexually gesture at your sister), but......

I would rather get my ass beat than get charged with murder.

He was obviously some insecure punk looking for validation. He sure wouldn't have killed you, likely not even hit you. Just say sorry. It sucks, but better for your pride take the blow instead of your face.

If you would have used that gun you would have been charged with murder.
That's just not worth it. I'm sure you and your sister would prefer you walk away with a dented ego that a dented face or a murder charge.

It's really lame that these uneducated little retards have to do stuff like that to feel good about themselves. Barbaric high schoolers are among the worst of us.

SAIGAFISH
July 25, 2009, 07:07 PM
I still think these are the kind of knuckle heads who need a swift kick
in the head while they still young and it might turn them around.
huh hogdogs

Archie
July 25, 2009, 07:16 PM
When did talking like a punk at a helpless woman or girl become acceptable?

When did 'the law' and 'society' decide vulgarity and intimidation were part of the First Amendment rights of scum?

Others around failed to notice the situation and do anything positive? Perhaps a public fight is simply entertainment and the gang rape of the sister would be an encore?

Yeah, the police would have taken the side of the scuzzballs if you had shot one of them as a lesson to the others. The police would also take a dim view of finding this punks mother and father and beating them silly for not properly rearing their worthless, dirtbag son. It just shows how much we've lost as a society.

55, you should have probably avoided the situation. However, the only way to avoid it is to lock yourself in your home or be a sheeple. I can't really give you any advise. Sounds like you did okay over all. Perhaps the punk will remember some victims are armed in the future.

MLeake
July 25, 2009, 07:22 PM
but would sound absolutely horrible in a courtroom, ER, or morgue.

The guys may have been buttheads, and they probably would benefit from a bit of corrective physical activity, but it's not your job nor mine to administer such correction. At least, not over words.

And for all you and HogDogs say that if your relative had been insulted, you'd either be tempted to rush over or maybe you would just not be able to resist (between the two of you, you've covered both those options), I have to wonder if you would do so if you were the only, let's use MAM (Military Aged Male) escorting the female relative.

Would you really put the girl at risk of being harmed, or at best of seeing you get hurt, just in order to say you didn't take any crap from the idiots? Because that's what you'd be risking, especially going one against three.

Some things sound great in concept, but a lot less great the closer you get to execution.

So you go and chest thump at the three guys. Possible results:

1) They immediately back down and apologize. Best case.

2) They decide to fight, but aren't very capable and you beat them down a bit until they concede. You may injure your hands, they might hurt you some, and you run the risk of being arrested, charged, and / or sued. Your female relative had to worry about injuries to you, and possible retaliation by the three idiots. Not best case, but it could be worse.

3) They fight, and know what they're doing. You are stalemated when the cops arrive and arrest all of you.

4) They fight, and won't give up easily. You seriously hurt one or more of them. Witnesses say you threatened them and made the first physical move. You go to jail. Female relative has to bail you out, or call other family or friends to come help. Female relative gets first look at a lock-up, thanks to you.

5) They fight, and hand you your butt. Your female relative tries to intervene, but they then hurt or scare her enough to back her off, and they go back to kicking you until somebody else arrives to drag them off. Everybody goes to jail, some to the hospital.

Options can get progressively worse, use your imagination.

So, chest-thumping aside, do you really want to suggest to younger viewers that maybe they should take it upon themselves to charge over?

Hellbilly5000
July 25, 2009, 07:26 PM
6'2 and 175 lbs is not to big
im 6'3 and just under 200 lbs
better solution for next time just look at the people and say seriously do you not know how to act in public (makes em think about what idiots there being)
and then just walk away if they persist in the manner they did then just get in your car lock the doors and drive away waving at them

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

on a side note I am editing to clarify a comment
at 6'2 a person who is 170 to 175 lbs is a rather small and skinny person, I was never intending to say that 6'2 is small

hogdogs
July 25, 2009, 07:28 PM
When did talking like a punk at a helpless woman or girl become acceptable?
And when did a big brother lose the right or responsibility to lump up anyone who makes lewd remarks to his little sis?
I had buddies whose father would punch his lights out with out question if either sister said a boy "wronged" them in any way.
My sisters? Well Most boys knew better than to mess with either one. At least I had MERCY on my opponents!:eek: One was known to kick 'em "where it counts" and put the leather to 'em when down and the other threw a flurry of punches that would make a pro fighter jealous!:D Once you went down... SHE REALLY WENT TO TOWN ON YOU!!!:eek:
Brent

MLeake
July 25, 2009, 07:49 PM
...and some posters here are bigger and more manly. Fine, on that line of thought I'd have a little over a 40lb weight advantage, and only some of that is fat. I also have a pretty extensive H2H background (3 years wrestling, 2 years kempo and kenpo kickboxing, 9-10 years aikido; recently started studying arnis, to supplement the aikido). But so what?

Just because the odds are very high that I could tear a mouthy teen a new one, and frankly I could probably make a lasting impression on the three described in the OP's scenario, does not make it a good idea for me to do so.

Assuming I would even consider it if on my own, it would become out of question if I were out with my lady (who would be unhappy about the altercation) or my sister (who would either chew me out or kick my butt, or she'd just use her laser eyes on me) or my mother (one reason for that will be covered next).

Last time I got in a fight around one of the women in my family, the woman was my mother, I was 20, and there had been a traffic accident. Even then, I wasn't looking for a fight, but the other driver's boyfriend decided to attack me while we were waiting for the cops. He swung at me, I floored him with a straight right, and next thing I knew my right ear hurt. Turns out my mother came up and grabbed my earlobe, pulling me away and saying "don't kill him."

Did I mention my mother is Sicilian?

Anyway, the guy didn't try that again, but I'm not sure if he was more scared of me or my mother. Wish to this day that I had video of her dragging me back to the car by my earlobe.... The thought still makes me smile.

This brings up another point: While we big he-men may feel like we need to protect the womenfolk, I can't think of too many guys who would like the cans they'd be opening if they had provoked my mother back in the day, or my sister up to the present day. They don't need protecting, except from serious threats - muggers or rapists, sure, but not from some idiot loudmouth at a movie theater. I'm quite sure that my mother, my sister, and my significant other would feel that my actions in going after the idiots would reduce me to the level of said idiots, and reflect poorly on my companions. On the other hand, if the guys were real BG's, then my mother, sister, or significant other would either be scrambling to call 911 or else be all over the back of any BG who tried to get to my blind side. They'd probably do both.

My sister has probably put more guys on the floor than 75% of the posters in this forum. Taught her straight right, left hook, and uppercut when she was a pre-teen. She's used the uppercut successfully on three occasions that I know of...

My significant other breaks and trains horses. She's a sweetie, but she's strong and not easily intimidated by mammals under 1500lbs.

None of them are impressed by chest-thumping. For that matter, neither am I. If you want to impress the women in my pack, use your grey matter first, and use the knuckles only when there are no other choices.

Farmland
July 25, 2009, 08:10 PM
This is one of those time I would have just kept on walking. You were in a safe environment with people around. While I might have been mad there was not any thing that would have made me react to them.

Now do this in my back yard and I might have given them a good old country lesson on how to treat my little sis. :D

But seriously why say something and have it escalate into a bigger problem. It was only words from jerks let it pass the next time.

rampage841512
July 25, 2009, 08:16 PM
I can't say the OP acted unreasonably in his initial response. What he was responding to might constitute Fighting Words. I think a biting and insulting response to what was said to he and his sister is more than appropriate, but I'd have chosen to go about it differently than he did.

As for the rest, I always like to keep some pepper spray on me for instances when a person is threatening me in the manner described. I would suggest you look into it. Assuming you are capable of handling the person threatening you, and I don't mean you think you can take them hand to hand (when armed), I suggest taking a tone of unconcerned disdain when responding to threats, such as a good snarky, "No, you won't." "No, you can't." or such and walking away. If they push it to the point where you think physical force is about to be used against you spray'em or taze'em (assuming you have legal justification in your jurisdiction...if you don't, you shoulda been gone a long time ago). After that, assuming it stops them, it should stop most, call police and press charges for the appropriate crime. In my neck of the woods the guy would be guilty of menacing.

And the gun never has to come into play unless at some point deadly force has become necessary. Bear in mind, my opinion is a result of the laws I live with and your own laws may be different and thus make bearing and grinning the appropriate action.

Steviewonder1
July 25, 2009, 08:38 PM
As I have said before, you take on the loudist SOB with what ever means you are going to do it with, Say it Once and Get off the X", then retreat to your car. If others follow, you then have to take them on also. Lots of Pepper Spray in the retreat mode works very well, unless they are armed, then it is War ON. You just have to know how to get hold of these issues and dispatch them in quick order. Then call 911 and get the Police who are minutes away when seconds count to come take down what happened, along with the witness statements...

MLeake
July 25, 2009, 08:49 PM
... but not much sense.

Why would anybody do something to escalate verbal stupidity to a physical altercation when they are out with a woman? It's asinine.

"Sister, I love you, so I shall defend your honor by putting myself, and possibly you as well, at risk of physical harm."

Pure and simple stupidity. Who are you trying to impress? Your sister? The idiot teenagers? The movie usher? Based on the advice some are giving, I hope they don't routinely carry.

(BH)
July 25, 2009, 10:49 PM
Mleake, I'm with you.

Many of the options mentioned in this thread are great..... when you don't have a gun in your pocket.

When you carry a gun, you waive the right to confront a pack idiots who have verbally insulted you. It's just too risky.

Assume you confront them and they beat you to the point where you are losing consciousness and you're pretty sure they could do you permanent harm, now are you gonna use your gun to prevent permanent brain damage? Or are you really going to realize that if you do, you are certainly going to be in some serious legal, financial, and emotional trouble? No, you are going to save your own life, and deal with the hell the follows.

Now wouldn't it just be easier to shrug it and go home?

Xyas
July 25, 2009, 11:24 PM
Agreed with MLeake. No need to escalate the situation when you have nothing to gain, but much to lose. Just walk away and don't worry about it, it's not worth getting beat up over or having stuff happen to your sister.

I am also under the impression (don't have my CPL yet so someone can correct me), that any time you draw your firearm, the police should be called, no matter what.

Remember, situational awareness. Don't put yourself in the position where you have to draw the firearm. You should've stayed in the theatre, go find a group of people, call the theatre security over or something like that so you'll be safe and have no need to draw your firearm.

dandydany
July 25, 2009, 11:55 PM
Sorry for your little sister; I don't blame you for getting mad but I think you should have ignore the CAT CALL , not even look in their direction and walk to your car. A good way to ensure your and her safety in a case like this where you loose control is a BIG MACE, just in case..., I carry one all the time and a digital camera.Gun usage is in a last resort situation where you have NO CHOICE. Dan :) :)

knivesandgear.com
July 26, 2009, 12:23 AM
Rough crowd here, but I agree with most....

That said, what movie did you just see....Gran Torino? I may have done the same thing after that movie.

The older I get the more I feel like Clint Eastwood...he's just sick and tired of people acting out the way they do. haha

According to what I know, you've gotta be real real careful when you pull that gun out, and without a doubt in 'your' mind that you are about to die.

Otherwise court is gonna suck. And prison is gonna suck more.

Hellbilly5000
July 26, 2009, 02:51 AM
I still say you point out to everyone else how they dont know how to act in public and just leave

Stonebender
July 26, 2009, 03:15 AM
I would have done what has worked for me in the past.

I'm 5 foot 11, 160 soaking wet, no H2H training and little experience fighting...

Punks yell, I turn and make eye contact. Not threatening, just letting them know I heard them and I didn't like what they said. Shake my head, "no" and walk away. More times than not they are looking for a reaction such as the OP gave. When no such aggressive action is given, they aren't interested anymore. This has gotten me out of situations without a scratch more times than not. I know it makes you friggin MAD to let them get away with that kind of stuff, but you have to CYOA. Sometimes the smallest actions are more effective than the loudest words. Now, if the guy came after me in the parking lot, well we'd go from there. But I'm a smaller dude, and I know my place in the chest-thumping ranks. And it ain't high. So I act accordingly.

But the one time where I did need to throw a fist, that was all it took to end it. One hit. A Boxer's Fracture was a doctor bill I didn't need though...


That last part wasn't really relavant, but, gotta chest-thump a little... :):)

scottaschultz
July 26, 2009, 04:59 AM
This is why you should only use your firearm when your life (or someone else's) is in imminent danger...

Here is how your story went:
...when i decided to unholster my Walther P22...

...and when he was withing 5 feet of me i pull the gun from around my back and hold it in front of my chest...

He looked at the gun, mouthed "oh sh**"...

Instead of the other guy doing a 180, it could have ended with the other guy pulling out his .45! Then who would be saying "oh sh**"? You never know if the other guy is also armed! This concealed carry thing is a 2-way street. Its not just something us good guys do!

You went on to say:
I looked around and realized that a bunch of people were watching and didnt even try to break up the potential fight...
And thank goodness they didn't! So now what if someone in that bunch of people was also a CCW holder who didn't know what had happened up to this point and then sees you pulling a weapon on a supposedly unarmed person? After all, the other guy wasn't aiming a gun at you, was he? Some people might see this as an act of aggression on your part, not a defensive move. Some people may think, right or wrong, that seeing someone pull a weapon is enough of a threat to use deadly force to stop YOU from using your weapon, especially when they don't know the whole story.

And lastly, if you are only going to carry a .22, you better be good, very good at using it since every shot has to count.

Scott

pax
July 26, 2009, 09:33 AM
It's all about the Monkey Dance. (http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/monkey_dance.htm)

Walk away, man. You know you're capable of killing that punk, and so you have nothing to prove. Are you man enough to walk away? Many aren't. They are insecure in themselves and have to prove their manhood, dancing the monkey dance. But you don't have to do that. You have both the skills and the equipment to cut the whole scene short by KILLING that guy, if you wanted to. That means you win by walking away and letting the little dogs yap if they want. They lose because they didn't get the fight they wanted; you win because you know you have the ability to take them if it comes to that anyway.

Your sister was in no physical danger in that time and in that place -- until YOU put her there by mouthing back at the punk. That you had to draw the gun was a failure, not a victory.

pax

robmkivseries70
July 26, 2009, 09:47 AM
I have to agree about walking away. In many locations any type of "fighting" conviction would probably cost you your CCW permit. Luckily this ended well for the OP. :(
Best,
Rob

robmkivseries70
July 26, 2009, 10:00 AM
Pax,
The Monkey Dance article is extremely informative, thanks for posting the link.:)
Best,
Rob

Re4mer
July 26, 2009, 10:01 AM
Its hard to walk away. These guys were clearly punks though so my guess is you taught each other something. They will watch who they try and jump and you will watch what you say to people in anger. Hard way to learn but at least you didn't go to jail.

rampage841512
July 26, 2009, 10:26 AM
This all comes down to the same old, "Should you run, or should you fight?"

Fight, fight, fight. If you are in the right, fight. Not always with physical force, and not always with words, but when you are wronged, fight. Blindly accepting it is why our society remains the way it does. The apathy I see on this bored every day just makes me shake my head in disgust

Responding in kind to an attack, any kind of an attack, is not an escalation. At any time the initiating party, assuming they are in the wrong, can walk away or shut up. It's not about establishing dominance, it's about refusing to to be dominated.

Kyo
July 26, 2009, 10:46 AM
All it takes is 3 words. I am 5'10' and 145 pounds. I am kinda average height but I am SKINNY! Those magical 3 words are "Thats my sister..."
You would be surprised at how a small amount of intimidation in a shadow dance will do you good.
Pick your battles, cause you picked the wrong one. Waiting for him to get that close, you were either brain dead at the moment, or just wanted to show off your piece. I am not usually this harsh about things but thats what it seems like to me.
"Stop following us or I will defend myself" "Do not get any closer or I will defend myself"
You could have gotten in the car and started driving with the gun within reach instead of your holster(idk if you can in GA you can have it anywhere if you have your permit)
175 is not that bad. My best friend is 6'4" and 240. I stood up to him plenty of times.

MLeake
July 26, 2009, 10:48 AM
... that in addition to advocating "fight, fight, fight" as a basic philosophy in a public forum, that the Rampage name might come back to bite you if you ever get charged with any sort of violent crime (IE something for which you would claim self defense)?

MLeake
July 26, 2009, 10:51 AM
... that by conditioning yourself to a response that you must act if anybody provokes you, you give the power in the situation to everybody else but you?

If I have to fight, I will. If I prefer to walk away, I can. My choice, not some idiot's.

If I think something needs to be corrected, there are ways to achieve that which do not require direct confrontation.

Sometimes, direct confrontation may be necessary. The thing is, I get to decide that. The other guy does not, short of actual violence.

Kyo
July 26, 2009, 10:51 AM
rampage you are insecure as all hell. i know that no one is going to dominate me. why don't you?

onthejon55
July 26, 2009, 11:17 AM
Pick your battles, cause you picked the wrong one. Waiting for him to get that close, you were either brain dead at the moment, or just wanted to show off your piece. I am not usually this harsh about things but thats what it seems like to me.
"Stop following us or I will defend myself" "Do not get any closer or I will defend myself"

He followed me out into the parking lot. The only way i could have gotten further away was by running and im not going to risk him being faster than me or my sister. Ive been carrying for 4 months and i still get nervous when i think someone spots my gun. I no not enjoy "showing it off". I told him multiple times i didnt want to fight and that he needed to leave.

Tennessee Gentleman
July 26, 2009, 11:28 AM
As a wise old mentor once told me "Never acknowledge the bird". Ignore them and walk away. Getting involved in a SD shoot because somebody mouths off to you is deserving of a Darwin award. Of course, I do know a lot of posts in these threads are just "wind". :rolleyes:

MLeake
July 26, 2009, 11:32 AM
He followed you into the parking lot because:

1) You chose to mouth off and flip him the bird; not saying he didn't deserve it, but I am saying you should have been smarter than to do that, especially with your little sister in tow.

2) After responding to those guys in a way that you should have known would provoke a response (mature, responsible guys wouldn't have cat-called your sister in the first place), you took your sister and walked away from any authority figures who might have intervened.

So, yes, he followed you, but you chose the situation. Your self-discipline and tactics were quite frankly horrible.

rampage841512
July 26, 2009, 11:33 AM
Like I said, the fight isn't always physical. And a response, IN KIND, is appropriate. Ducking and running is a sign of submission, and thus when you take that action, you are dominated. Running away from a non-threat is insecurity, while making of joke of it (as I suggested in my first response to this thread) is a way of refusing to be cowed while at the same time not taking action that is a real escalation.

The idea that we give up all other ways of defending ourselves short of deadly force when we carry a gun is absurd. There are plenty of ways for dealing with the situation described in the OP that don't involve the use of a firearm or deadly force or willingly submitting to the abuse. You cut your own throat when you only have one way of responding to a multitude of varying threats of various seriousness.

Allowing a bully to go on being a bully is stupid, plain and simple, and just invites more of the behavior and an escalation of the bullying by the instigator.

MLeake
July 26, 2009, 11:34 AM
Rampage, every time you feel that you MUST respond, you have allowed them to dominate you. You have turned yourself into a puppet, for any jerk to manipulate.

Still think you ought to re-think your screen name and your professed desire for confrontations.

rampage841512
July 26, 2009, 11:40 AM
He followed you into the parking lot because:

1) You chose to mouth off and flip him the bird; not saying he didn't deserve it, but I am saying you should have been smarter than to do that, especially with your little sister in tow.

2) After responding to those guys in a way that you should have known would provoke a response (mature, responsible guys wouldn't have cat-called your sister in the first place), you took your sister and walked away from any authority figures who might have intervened.

So, yes, he followed you, but you chose the situation. Your self-discipline and tactics were quite frankly horrible.

Yep.

"And she wanted to be raped because she was wearing a short skirt when I picked her up for our date. She provoked it by walking with that sexy strut when I said she looked good. She wanted it."

"He shouldn't have fought me when I tried to take his wallet. He made me kill him."

"I wouldn't have keyed Mr. Smith's car if he hadn't given me detention for being late to class."

Failing to meekly accept the wrong action of an individual does not make you responsible when they decide to take still more wrong action because you refused to let it go.

rampage841512
July 26, 2009, 11:44 AM
You have turned yourself into a man, for any jerk to self-destruct against.
Fixed it.

Rampage is a shorted form of "Ramsey Page" a pen named I've been using for over a decade. Try again.

Tennessee Gentleman
July 26, 2009, 11:45 AM
Ducking and running is a sign of submission, and thus when you take that action, you are dominated.

Dominated in what way? Are you losing money, freedom or property? Are you losing business or your job? Your life? These types are nothing but hopeless punks who will one day probably buy it in a drive by, and you want to soil your hands with them? :confused: What kind of sense does that make? If this is just about ego then as many have said you must have a fragile one indeed. I suggest working to improve that and the words of a couple of clowns will mean nothing to you.

Allowing a bully to go on being a bully is stupid, plain and simple, and just invites more of the behavior and an escalation of the bullying by the instigator.

Fear not, one of his idiot peers will cash in his chips one day. And then probably go to prison. The is a role you need not play.

rampage841512
July 26, 2009, 11:52 AM
You've been denied the use of a venue, the theater lobby in this instance.

Trusting that someone else will solve a problem for you is just burying your head in the sand.

Respectfully disagree, Tennesse? And let it lie? I think we've encountered each other's ideas and philosophy on this board enough to know we're not going to change the the others mind. I don't think going back and forth is going to get us anywhere. Nothing short of real world encounters are left, for we've delved into theory as far as it can take up.

onthejon55
July 26, 2009, 12:00 PM
1) You chose to mouth off and flip him the bird; not saying he didn't deserve it, but I am saying you should have been smarter than to do that, especially with your little sister in tow.


I know I shouldnt have said anything but sometimes you cant help it. If there is nothing anyone can say to you to make you mad then you may want to get your testosterone levels checked. Every man has his breaking point and my breaking point comes when my sister is insulted in public.

2) After responding to those guys in a way that you should have known would provoke a response (mature, responsible guys wouldn't have cat-called your sister in the first place), you took your sister and walked away from any authority figures who might have intervened.

We were in an empty movie theater lobby. There was NO ONE else around. If i would have stayed inside then everyone on here would have said "why didnt you retreat to you car and leave?". those were my too options and i decided to try and let things settle down by leaving. I had no idea at the time that he was going to follow me all the way out to my car.

Tennessee Gentleman
July 26, 2009, 12:04 PM
You've been denied the use of a venue, the theater lobby in this instance.

That makes no sense however...

Respectfully disagree, Tennesse? And let it lie? I think we've encountered each other's ideas and philosophy on this board enough to know we're not going to change the the others mind.

That's fine but I am not really trying to "change your mind". I'll let you decide to do that. At my advanced age I find it useful to sound out my "philosophies" and see how it plays back to me from others. I have learned a lot that way. You must be doing some of the same or you wouldn't post here. I hope you will consider some of the feedback you have received and maybe it will "refine" your ideas. I just hate to see people do things that ruin their lives. A failing of mine. :)

(BH)
July 26, 2009, 12:27 PM
You have turned yourself into a man, for any jerk to self-destruct against.


That sounds like a recipe for jail time.

I worry that some people are just waiting for a someone to confront them so that they can shoot somebody, instead of hoping to never have to use it at all.

BuckHammer
July 26, 2009, 12:35 PM
The proper thing to do would be to fully occupy your vehicle in order to take advantage of Castle Doctrine :D. I know, someone will be along shortly to tell me that it doesn't work like that.

People are saying that 6'2", 180 isn't that big, but neither is 5'5", 130. It's called relativity.

As others have said, the proper thing to do was to not escalate the situation. However, no one is in jail and no one got hurt, so you did alright in my book.

Edited to add: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYXZAAlxzOI. :)
LOL! I'm just joking around with the link.

Mello2u
July 26, 2009, 12:41 PM
This scenario makes a good mental training exercise for those of us who were not there.

When you carry a concealed weapon your options are different than when you do not carry a weapon. The issue of physical disparity is different for each of us as it depends upon size, age, physical health and training in hand to hand skills.

Making an honest assessment of our own physical capabilities and what is an imminent threat of great bodily harm of death is an individual decision that must be made in a short time period. But we can use scenarios like this to do a little mental gymnastics to try and place ourselves in this situation and try to determine what is a "go" "no go" trigger.

If you use the Color Code that Jeff Cooper has taught the OP was in RED when he got to the car and stood outside of it watching the threat approach. What would be a "go"; to draw and point the weapon at the threat?
Had he exhausted all of his non-lethal options before drawing his weapon?
Should he had also gotten in his car and locked the doors before drawing his weapon?

Depending upon how he was parked and his possible avenues of egress in his vehicle I assume that getting in the vehicle would have been a better option than standing outside. In the event that the threat blocked his path to leave, a call to 911 could have been made. Only in the event that the threat broke a window which would give the threat access to the OP or his sister inside of the vehicle and cause great bodily harm or death, would I then display or use the weapon. If the threat had broken the window there would be clear evidence of the aggressiveness of the threat and his ability to do damage.

I have decided that should a situation occur where I am carrying a concealed weapon, and I get to Orange or Red, it is not a "go" if I am insulted or spit upon without an imminent threat of great bodily harm or death that I try to remove myself from the situation without the use of my weapon. Anger or revenge is not justification for the use of lethal force.

I see carrying a concealed weapon as a trade off. One the one had you must be prepared to take verbal abuse and not escalate; on the other hand, you have the option to counter lethal force with lethal force should that occur.

We tend to admire people who show bravery, which is overcoming fear to do something positive. We should also admire people who overcome anger and do something wise.

Uncle Billy
July 26, 2009, 12:48 PM
Seems to me that after you impulsively irritated the bully into a physical confrontation, you were probably left with no alternative other than to draw the gun and discourage him, because if you had not, and he came at you and you lost control (likely since he was so much larger than you), the gun suddenly becomes problematic- if you lose it to him in the fracas, the situation has the potential to get immeasurably worse. Once it got to the point of a probable physical dust-up, you seriously needed to discharge the situation with whatever means were available to protect your control of the weapon.

Better to just shut up and walk away, especially if you were carrying, avoiding as much contact with him and his pals as was possible.

Having a gun seems to have made you bolder than you would have been had you left it home. I mean, would you have mouthed off to 3 guys, at least one of which was bigger than you if you were unarmed?

Until you get a handle on how to handle yourself in such situations when you're carrying, it's probably best to leave it on the dresser.

Just my $.02

onthejon55
July 26, 2009, 12:55 PM
Having a gun seems to have made you bolder than you would have been had you left it home. I mean, would you have mouthed off to 3 guys, at least one of which was bigger than you if you were unarmed?

Yes i would have. Ive already stated that i have little tolerance for people that insult women (especially my sister) in public.

Steve1911
July 26, 2009, 12:57 PM
I see only a couple of thing wrong with this situation.

I am not going to criticize you in your actions, because I was young once and had my fair share of hot headed moments. And this old man exterior in the past 20 years has on more than one occasion fooled a 20 something into thinking I would be easy to beat up.

However… wisdom tells me that if you know who you are, then there is nothing that anyone else can say or do, that can change that.

I believe that you should have just gotten into your car and left. I too have sisters and don’t like it when people used to talk that way about them. But the smart thing would have been to just leave. Most states have laws of self defense that allow you to defend yourself against someone trying to get into your car.

But the pulling the gun thing was not a good idea. I don’t ever advocate pulling your firearm if you do not use it.

A year or so ago… I had a not too similar situation where there were a couple of gentlemen around 25 or so that were aggressive toward my family. I handled it by taking the gun and holster out of my pants and putting it into the car with my wife (In their full view of course) and telling my wife to call 911 and tell them to bring an ambulance for the gentlemen (again loud enough for them to hear). Granted this was a bluff, and if they had not bought it… The ambulance would have been needed for me I am sure. But I defeated them with psychological warfare before anyone got hurt.

I am not a violent person nor is that my normal course of action. But at the time it seemed like the right thing to do. Foolish … yes. But luckily it worked out.

onthejon55
July 26, 2009, 01:01 PM
If he had been further away i would have left in my car. That was my original intent when i exited the movie theater. the reason i didnt just leave was because i didnt think i had enough time to get in the car and secure the door before he had a chance to stop me from closing the door and dragging me out.

(BH)
July 26, 2009, 01:02 PM
Bottom line: When you flip someone the bird and cuss at them, you forfiet the legal right to use you gun.

You have participated in escalating the situation. When you do so, any "disparity of force" arguments go out the window.

If you are defending yourself against a threat that you provoked, it is no longer self defense.

A real man does not carry a gun to prove himself. He carries a gun to protect himself and his loved ones.

onthejon55
July 26, 2009, 01:06 PM
If you are defending yourself against a threat that you provoked, it is no longer self defense.

I didnt ask him to follow me out to my car and threaten to do bodily harm to me.

(BH)
July 26, 2009, 01:11 PM
Believe me man, I know that stuff is infuriating. I've been there, and I'm not saying that I don't understand the anger some of those types can cause in a guy. But.....

Any judge in the country IS going to say that you in fact did invite a threat. If you participate in any way that could be considered intentionally provocative, you are now a fellow aggressor, and no longer a victim.

Kyo
July 26, 2009, 01:24 PM
rampage you can paint those pretty pictures to fit your side of things very easily, but in reality its still wrong.
First of all, when someone commits a crime the victim is not at "fault"
This boy here wouldn't have been a victim of a crime. He was an instigator of a situation.
Here is the bottom line. You got a gun. You are held to a high responsibility. Period. IF you don't like it, don't carry, cause reality is sure going to kick your a$$. After I started carrying(in April, I turned 24 in April and got my permit) believe me I don't say nothing to anyone no matter what they say. I don't care if they insult my mom, dad, family, or whoever. Why is this? Because I know I have control. He doesn't. And he won't know I have control unless he really tests it by becoming a threat.
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/bullies.htm
and i quote
"First off, most people who are selected in this manner don't understand what they are doing to attract the attention of bullies. The build up to violence is always a two way street. What you do affects whether or not you are selected to be the bullies' entertainment. Until you understand this, you won't realize how much power and control you are giving up by reacting to bullies a certain way."

Emphasis mine in bold. Bully is going fishing, you took the bait. Then you escalated it with a gun.

this one is for you rampage and I quote
"Now the funny thing is the Bobs are the ones who most fear being branded as victims. So they think they 'have' to "stand up" to the tough guy. They're the ones who often find themselves rattlesnake-cornered (a rattlesnake is so stupid that it can get 'cornered' in an open field, and the usual result is that the snake ends up dying). Despite being completely concerned what "everyone else will think," these kind of people really aren't aware of what other people believe or think!"

Onthejon55- you better deal with your "low" tolerance before you get POed and escalate another situation because some idiot called your sister a ho

Xyas
July 26, 2009, 01:34 PM
Yes i would have. Ive already stated that i have little tolerance for people that insult women (especially my sister) in public.

That tolerance should change then now that you carry. Or, if you can't do that, you're going to need to learn some hand to hand or carry some pepper spray or something with you.

You could have put your sister in even bigger risk by pulling the firearm. Like the previous poster said, if that guy would've pulled out his .45 then what would you have done?

By walking away and not responding, nothing probably would have happened. Are words worth getting shot/going to jail? They were just punks to begin with, their words did not mean a thing. Just walk away and don't invite trouble to escalate.


On a more personal note. Why are you carrying a Walther p22? How many rounds have you put through it? Is it reliable? I just know a lot of people that have a lot of problems with their p22's and I would never consider it for a concealed weapon, especially since it's only 22. That part is just my opinion though.

BuckHammer
July 26, 2009, 01:36 PM
I'm going to sit this one out and just watch.
http://riverdaughter.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/popcorn.jpg

Farmland
July 26, 2009, 02:19 PM
You do know that you did do a pretty good job of reviewing your actions after the fact. You recognized that answering the name calling probably wasn't the best option. No doubt it can be a hard one to take but I think the next time you might make the choice to ignore them. IMHO that would be the correct one for a couple of reasons. The first is they could have a gun and just looking for a reason to use it. The second is that when guys are with their buddies they are more likely to escalate a small problem because of peer pleasure.

So the choice of ignoring and walking is a responsible choice which means your sister is safety escorted to the car with out harm. No if you wanted to make these guys learn a lesson you had the option of talking to the manager of the theater. This way these guys didn't get off the hook so easy.

Now you also reviewed your actions during the encounter when you were in your car. A prudent action would have been to start the car and leave. You did make the choice to stay and draw a gun. IMHO you defiantly escalated the encounter to a level of possible deadly outcome over name calling.

You did recognize that this was not a proper reaction. However we may differ on brandishing a weapon when you are not in immediate danger. I believe from your story that you were not. In any event you made the choice to raise the level of some name calling to a level of deadly force. The outcome could have been very different at this point. The other guy could have had a gun, you could have had an accidental discharge and your sister was in more danger than she was from a bunch or words.

The important part thought is that I think you were scared and learned a lesson when encountering just words. It ended well and I do give you credit for thinking over your actions.

What I really would like to know is what would you do different if this same thing happened again? That is the important subject of this thread.

Take car and be safe.

scottaschultz
July 26, 2009, 02:40 PM
I know I shouldnt have said anything but sometimes you cant help it. If there is nothing anyone can say to you to make you mad then you may want to get your testosterone levels checked. Every man has his breaking point and my breaking point comes when my sister is insulted in public.Testosterone levels don't make you a man, it only makes you a male. If you let your testosterone guide you in you decision making process in cases like this, then you will either:
a) end up in jail (if you are lucky) or
b) end up in a morgue
Sperm cells don't make you a man, brain cells do!

And furthermore, you said:
I didnt ask him to follow me out to my car and threaten to do bodily harm to me.
Yes, you did. Twice!
In your own words:
At this point my temper flared and i made the mistake of telling them to go F*** themselves...That is #1, and

...and showed them a certain hand gesture.That is #2. How should he have reacted to your verbal assault and hand gesture? If you say that to someone, you should expect to get an ass whoopin'!

And while I am at it...

In your opening post you said:
After the movie i was waiting for her to finish using the restroom when i noticed there were three young men standing outside the bathroom laughing and looking my way.

Then later in that same post, out in the parking lot you said:
I looked around and realized that a bunch of people were watching and didnt even try to break up the potential fight...

But then later on Page 3 you said:
We were in an empty movie theater lobby. There was NO ONE else around. If i would have stayed inside then everyone on here would have said "why didnt you retreat to you car and leave?". those were my too options and i decided to try and let things settle down by leaving. I had no idea at the time that he was going to follow me all the way out to my car.

OK, something isn't adding up for me, but maybe its just me. Your sister was in the bathroom so long that the entire lobby had cleared out except for you and those three "gentlemen". So now you act surprised that they followed you out to your car! Why would they stay in a totally empty theater lobby especially considering the circumstances?

But all those people in the lobby couldn't have been too far behind. By the time you make it out to your car, get your sister inside and brandish your weapon at an unarmed man, you notice that there were a bunch of people watching who didn't try and stop the fight!

I am sure its just me, but something about this "scenario" doesn't pass the smell test!

Scott

Manning Munitions
July 26, 2009, 03:53 PM
I personally think this post has gotten way off base. As a fellow CCW holder/gun rights proponent, I think what we should be focusing on is the fact that a gun was used in a responsible manner to ward off bodily harm, or threat to life (you have no idea how far this "thug" would have gone). Should you have handled the situation differently?? ABSOLUTELY!! I truly believe that in retrospect you realize this. Kudos to you sir, for being able to admit your mistakes and reflecting on the circumstances to handle the next situation (GOD forbid) better.

Jofaba
July 26, 2009, 04:21 PM
I didn't read the whole thread, just the senario. You asked for it, so here's my thoughts:

1. Don't ask for trouble. People like that want two things: to make fun of you for not standing up for yourself, or to get you to confront them in anger. It may just be one person mouthing off, but don't be fooled that it'd be a fight between just you and him.

Even if you got into a fight and won, it won't end there. Next time they'll have ten people with them and unless you're Jackie Chan you're not going to win that one.

2. You're greatest responsibility in carrying a gun is to keep it holstered as much as possible. You don't present your gun to prevent a black eye or let a punk know that they're picking on the wrong person.

3. You're permitted to carry a gun, not to use it. The judicial system is what decides whether you were right to use it. I've read a lot of threads where guns were used to positive outcomes without being fired, but I wonder how many of those were technically legal. If a policeman had witnessed the senarios, how many of those stories would have ended in jail time?

If you're in a convenience store and it gets held up, it's not your job or your right, (in my opinion), to do anything. You're not invested in the business, the money is not yours, and you don't know the perps intentions.

Everytime you take your gun out of it's holder in a self defense situation, you have to be say to yourself "I am willing to go to prison for this".

Justified shooters still end up (wrongly) incarcerated.

Say, if things had escilated, and you got knocked down and the guy smacked your sister hard and told her what he was going to do and you believed him, and you felt that if you didnt do something she would be gravely harmed, and whether you pull the trigger or not you take your gun out just as the cops are showing up (but you didn't see them) you have to be willing to get arrested and possibly go to prison. You'll know that you saved your sister from great pain or death and so you don't regret it.

Hellbilly5000
July 26, 2009, 04:56 PM
There is no such thing as retreating its called advancing in the other direction

Kyo
July 26, 2009, 04:57 PM
I personally think this post has gotten way off base. As a fellow CCW holder/gun rights proponent, I think what we should be focusing on is the fact that a gun was used in a responsible manner to ward off bodily harm, or threat to life (you have no idea how far this "thug" would have gone). Should you have handled the situation differently?? ABSOLUTELY!! I truly believe that in retrospect you realize this. Kudos to you sir, for being able to admit your mistakes and reflecting on the circumstances to handle the next situation (GOD forbid) better.
Actually the gun was not used in the appropriate manner. The gun did not have to be used at all. The fact that contributed in the worsening of the situation is the reason.
Ill make it real easy.
Something bad about my sister>F U> middle finger> guy has to save face in front of friends> follows him to the car> OP pulls gun>guy leaves.

What really could have happened was
Something bad about my sister> ok whatever, lets go> get in car and go home.
Which situation has no gun in it? So why would you feel the gun was used correctly? What if he didn't have one? Whats he gonna do when a guy bigger is coming that close? He would have gotten in the car and left

BlackFeather
July 26, 2009, 06:37 PM
I dont have a sister myself... but I do have a couple of friends that have had boys calling to them... I usually laugh and reveal my finger while walking away... but then again I am 5'10" 160lbs. and have been doing martial arts for... 9 years... p.s.: I dont carry a firearm... I carry a knife...

Jofaba
July 26, 2009, 08:48 PM
Just came across an old pocket version of the Tao Te Ching. I like the philosophies, though it's been years since any of it's entered my mind.

Randomly flipped to a page to see what kind of randomn wisdom might smack me in the forehead, and I kid you not, this is what I read:


Weapons are the tools of violence;
all decent men detest them.

Weapons are the tools of fear;
a descent man will avoid them
except in the direst necessity
and, if compelled, will use them
only with the utmost restraint.

Peace is his highest value.
If the peace has been shattered,
how can he be content?

His enemies are not demons,
but human beings like himself.

He doesn't wish them personal harm.
Nor does he rejoice in victory.
How could he rejoice in victory
and delight in the slaughter of men?

He enters a battle gravely,
with sorrow and with great compassion,
as if he were attending a funeral.

MLeake
July 26, 2009, 09:27 PM
... I know you're young. You're initial post said you were going back to college after visiting home. But even if you hadn't said that, I could have predicted you'd be young.

Same goes for Rampage. If he isn't young, then I can't explain how he still has such a naive concept of what will get you into serious legal trouble, and possibly fatal trouble too.

If you want to question my testosterone levels, that's fine, it goes with your age I suppose. However, there are a few things that shape my perspective, so let me share them with you.

1) I've been responsible for training and leading fairly large numbers of young guys like you. At one point, was in charge of approximately 90 guys, most of whom were around your age. The majority of problems encountered that involved ego overwhelming good sense occurred with the younger age bracket of my guys.

2) In the past, the government has trusted me with command of $44M warplanes, complete with missiles and other munitions.

3) In the past, the government has trusted me with command of Sea Sparrow and CIWS weapon systems, plus control of interceptors, in defense of a nuclear aircraft carrier.

4) I've lived and worked alongside SEALs and Army SF as an air reconnaissance liaison.

5) I'll be heading over to Afghanistan in the fall, with my next job, so I'm not going to get overly perturbed about whether my testosterone levels meet your approval.

6) Just got back from an evening out with friends I work out with, cops and martial arts instructors. Want to guess how many of us have challenged random idiots in the past five or ten years? If you guessed anything other than zero, please recalibrate.

Now, from somebody who's older than you, and has seen a reasonable amount of stupid actions taken over the years.... but also from somebody who's still young enough to occasionally get in the middle of things... grow up.

Somebody said words you didn't like, so you chose to respond to guys when you had to know that aside from your Walther, you had absolutely no way to control what would happen next. You put your sister at risk; if the place was as deserted as you describe, and those guys were leching after her to begin with, what might they have done to her after they got done stomping you?

How would your pride and ego have dealt with that?

For Rampage, you need to brush up on the law as it relates to self-defense, and as it relates to actions that you might take that would deny you of a legal claim of self-defense. If you walk your own talk, you're an aggravated assault or worse conviction waiting to happen.

Composer_1777
July 26, 2009, 11:14 PM
Acting aggressively to aggression is insecurity.

The OP was not being dominated until he chose aggression then retreated. When they called out to his sister, it wasn't a confrontation, it was just an insecure male trying to prove himself.

To be dominant you have to figure out how to be Assertive and not fall prey to intimidation. Intimidation is useless against a truly dominant assertive male.

It is hard to be assertive and i don't always accomplish that goal, myself. I probably would have said "thats my sister dumb F**K because the guy was no threat. He was no threat, he's insecure he wouldn't do anything. He only became aggressive after the OP showed weakness.

He thought she was your girlfriend. Lets just get that out there now.

Next time just say that's my sister "Insult". Then, if the person responds more aggressively u can ignore it or just go up to the person face to face and ask him ***.

scottaschultz
July 27, 2009, 06:57 AM
As a fellow CCW holder/gun rights proponent, I think what we should be focusing on is the fact that a gun was used in a responsible manner to ward off bodily harm...Responsible? In what universe? This boy wrote a check with his mouth (and used testosterone for ink!) and then relied on his gun to cash that check!

It just smells like a hypothetical scenario that never really happened by someone who has never taken a CCW class.

Scott

danbrew
July 27, 2009, 07:28 AM
I know I shouldnt have said anything but sometimes you cant help it. If there is nothing anyone can say to you to make you mad then you may want to get your testosterone levels checked. Every man has his breaking point and my breaking point comes when my sister is insulted in public.

If that's your breaking point, you're going to have a hard life.

skydiver3346
July 27, 2009, 09:04 AM
:mad: I agree with Archie on this one. This type of situation really ticks me off. Yes, the best thing (especially with your little sister involved) would to be have got in the car and drove away (plus you were armed to boot).

That does not mean you were not to be offended and ****** off. Nowadays, we unfortunately must not respond to insults, aggression, etc. We are just supposed to walk away with our tails tucked between our legs and slither off..

That was not the case many years ago. These guys would have got their butts kicked for doing this. Of course you being armed, means you have to leave and retreat. That is the law and protects you from possible inncarceration later on, (if you shoot one of them). Anyway, being armed always makes a big difference on your decisions in matters like that.

If I wasn't armed, I promise you I would have immediately jumped on the biggest guy and broke his nose straight away without saying a word. Immediate response takes these dirt bags by surprise (as it does most anyone). Sort of Shock n' Awe! No threats, no small talk, no anything, just immediate action. I promise you that they would not have expected that, but rather the normal BS and postering that ususally occurs when these things happen.

Yes, your little sister deserves to be treated with respect (as you do). As her big brother, you have a responsibility to protect her. No reason to take this kind of crap from anybody. But that is the way we are supposed to handle things nowadays.

However, being that you were armed, changes everything and you must walk away.

pax
July 27, 2009, 09:27 AM
Post #82 is excellent.

Going to go ahead and close this one, as the discussion is just going in circles at this point.

pax