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View Full Version : Poice raid wrong house. What do you do?


Hornett
July 23, 2009, 12:56 PM
This has happened in my area and I have always wondered, what to do?

This may not belong here, because I would sure not want to start shooting.

But, How can you tell if the guys busting down our front door are real police or not.
And what is the best way to convey your innocence?
What happened here was a mistake in the intel.
The team got the wrong address and busted in a house of someone totally innocent.
Lawsuits, trials, and jury awards proceeded, but I can't help but think there is some really good way do quickly explain your innocence and prevent your whole family from being drug out of bed and handcuffed.

scottaschultz
July 23, 2009, 01:32 PM
First rule when dealing with LEO's - COOPERATE!

They aren't busting in the door to have a friendly chat over tea and cookies! The slightest bit of resistance will likely end in a very bad, and permanent result for you.

If you are innocent, it will be found out when they take you "downtown for questioning". At that point, you have every right to take legal action against the department and the city or county (whoever employes the agency).

Scott

CorpITGuy
July 23, 2009, 01:35 PM
Not too long ago, I read about a case where someone had seen that in a town near them, a home invasion was covered up as a police raid... only after the BGs shot innocents did the homeowners realize they weren't really cops. Flash forward to a few weeks later, cops raided the wrong house, innocent homeowner (assuming it was the same BGs) opened firing, killing the real, good guy cops...

Bad, bad deal. :(

Sixer
July 23, 2009, 01:37 PM
I would think in my situation... If a well trained SWAT team decided to raid my house in the middle of the night, I probably wouldn't have time to take up arms or even make it out of bed.

We're not talking small time crooks here, who might trip over a sprinkler or knock over a yard knome. Unless you have a dog or two, I'd say there is a good chance you wouldn't hear them coming until you were already face down on the floor.

I dont know... just a thought.

hogdogs
July 23, 2009, 01:41 PM
first and foremost, if I haven't commited a crime worthy of a no knock warrant being served, I can safely guess that any one entering with force is a home invading intruder and will be dealt with as such. I ain't believing anyone claiming LEO status if I am not involved in criminal activity.
If I submit and they are real LEO's and making an error, I bet I get little more than a "Sorry 'bout that..." from the dept... Little recourse for a real "mental anguish and suffering" suit.

Had to add... I do have several dogs and one will be shot dead as she will engage the threat as I roll from my bed grabbing the shot gun and bringing it to bear.
Brent

arcticap
July 23, 2009, 01:43 PM
If you're not sure that they are real cops, then retreat to a safe room and call the local police to either verify who they are or to report the unlawful invasion.
They should properly identify themselves at some point during the raid, especially if there's a mistake. :)

hogdogs
July 23, 2009, 01:53 PM
Articap, I am not wasting precious seconds during a home invasion to call 911, My wife will be reporting the home invasion as I go try to keep my family safe. Like I said, since I and my family members are upstanding law abiding folks, we have no reason to fear a LEO assault on my abode.
All I know is I have cherished 8 year old dog that needed no training nor encouragement to become quite a threat to the uninvited. If I hear a gun shot, I will send 5 rounds down range nearly instantly and retreat for the rifle.
As a law abiding citizen NO ONE should fear a home invasion by anyone wearing any attire... ESPECIALLY A BADGED UNIFORM!!! :mad:
Brent

TenmaNeko
July 23, 2009, 02:16 PM
Exactly.

This is why no-knock raids get innocent people killed. An informant lies to get out of trouble, an address is misread, or filed wrong. Someone dies, either a cop or an innocent homeowner.

In Ohio a couple years ago a man heard someone breaking into his house, so he grabbed his rifle. His daughter got to watch as cops shot him to death. The police were there searching for a marijuana grow-op. They didn't find one.

Sad, sad, sad.

scottaschultz
July 23, 2009, 02:17 PM
Some of you guys are real entertaining, that's what you are!

If this is the "real deal" and they believe they are at the right address, you aren't going to have time to "retreat to a safe room" and if by chance you do get to your gun before they make it to your room, when they see you with your shotgun "bringing it to bear", you will be dead before you get a single shot off!

You may think you have enough training for that eventual day when you might have to deal with a BG, but these guys train for it because it is their job to take out BG's.

Of course you are a law abiding citizen who should not fear a visit from the SWAT team, but that doesn't mean they don't make mistakes. Obviously they do!

I promise you that you are not smarter than them, you are not faster than them and you do not have more firepower than they have. Don't be stupid!

As my fellow Missourian Sixer said, "...there is a good chance you wouldn't hear them coming until you were already face down on the floor. "

Scott

Edward429451
July 23, 2009, 02:33 PM
...maybe. Unless you slow down their entry. It's not that hard to fortify entry points to give you some reaction time.;)

Be they bonifide LEO or not.

hogdogs
July 23, 2009, 02:33 PM
If this is the "real deal" and they believe they are at the right address, you aren't going to have time to "retreat to a safe room" and if by chance you do get to your gun before they make it to your room, when they see you with your shotgun aimed in their direction, you will be dead before you get a single shot off!
I assure you, will get one shot off! Maybe more...
Of course you are a law abiding citizen who should not fear a visit from the SWAT team, but that doesn't mean they don't make mistakes. Obviously they do!
There is no more excuse for a bad raid as there is for a citizen to shoot an innocent person... Actually they have less room for error as pros!
I promise you that you are not smarter than them, you are not faster than them and you do not have more firepower than they have. Don't be stupid!
I don't claim to be... But I am not under the impression I am being raided by LEOs so i am handling this as a home invasion which it is.
As my fellow Missourian Sixer said, "...there is a good chance you wouldn't hear them coming until you were already face down on the floor. "
Actually, as I stated before, I will be awake before the door is touched, I will be on my feet with gun in hand when the door is breeched and and firing when the main dog is shot.
And if I get shot for defending my home, my wife has the number to the best lawyers in florida to take care of the law suits for my loss of life due to negligent police work.
Brent

arcticap
July 23, 2009, 02:35 PM
Articap, I am not wasting precious seconds during a home invasion to call 911, My wife will be reporting the home invasion as I go try to keep my family safe. Like I said, since I and my family members are upstanding law abiding folks, we have no reason to fear a LEO assault on my abode.

The OP clearly said that he wasn't going to be shooting and he understands the potential that it was a police mistake.


This may not belong here, because I would sure not want to start shooting.

But, How can you tell if the guys busting down our front door are real police or not.
And what is the best way to convey your innocence?
What happened here was a mistake in the intel.
The team got the wrong address and busted in a house of someone totally innocent.
Lawsuits, trials, and jury awards proceeded, but I can't help but think there is some really good way do quickly explain your innocence and prevent your whole family from being drug out of bed and handcuffed.

I contend that there's nothing wrong with trying to retreat in order to verify who they are and/or to report the home invasion to the authorities. Anyone who wants to take a chance and try to commit a capital felony of shooting an officer is free to make that choice however ill advised.
Especially if someone knows that they're the cops, then shooting isn't an option for the law abiding citizen no matter how outraged they may feel about their dog being shot. :rolleyes:


All I know is I have cherished 8 year old dog that needed no training nor encouragement to become quite a threat to the uninvited.
If I hear a gun shot, I will send 5 rounds down range nearly instantly and retreat for the rifle.
As a law abiding citizen NO ONE should fear a home invasion by anyone wearing any attire... ESPECIALLY A BADGED UNIFORM!!!

Edward429451
July 23, 2009, 02:44 PM
How do you verify if they're real LEO before it's too late to defend against them if they are not? Hmm?

OuTcAsT
July 23, 2009, 02:46 PM
I promise you that you are not smarter than them, you are not faster than them and you do not have more firepower than they have. Don't be stupid!

I sincerely hope you are not an LE officer, and if you are, I sincerely hope you do not actually subscribe to what you wrote. If you actually live by your assumption, you might be surprised at the amount of intelligence, skill, and firepower that exists in the "general population", an underestimation that could be dangerous.

arcticap
July 23, 2009, 02:58 PM
I saw a regional SWAT team in action in my neighborhood against a would be "sniper" who took a random shot out of his window into a neighboring window and then shot up his own apartment.
The ordeal lasted 6-8 hours, the law tossed in grenades, had the place surrounded, had snipers with .308's, they all had bulletproof vests [most w/helmets] and they brought in a heavily armored vehicle.
The kook eventually came out with his hands up. End of story. ;)

Willie Lowman
July 23, 2009, 03:03 PM
There are lots of us that go to work knowing that there is some hazard waiting that could cost us or lives. All it takes is one mistake and *POW* you are dead. The mistake could be getting a boom into power lines, the mistake could be letting the people in the crack house know that you are coming.

We take precautions to not get killed, like marking where the buried gas lines are or double checking the address of that crack house.

If someone is storming into your house shouting "Police!" you have few options. How you tell if those folks are the police, I don't know.

I do know that the cops in my town did a no-knock on a guy's house when they were looking for his neighbor from down the road. The neighbor wasn't home so they thought they would check around... But that is a story for another day.

ZeSpectre
July 23, 2009, 03:10 PM
Sometimes you are just plain jacked.
Wish I had something more encouraging to say but that's life. :(

A_McDougal
July 23, 2009, 04:40 PM
If you are the victim of a wrong address police raid, you can choose 'Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death', or you can choose to be a serf like the rest of us, begging permission to request our rights. If you hurt a cop at all, you'll be the next Ronnie White (search Ronnie White, Maryland, suicide if you don't know his story).

Sparks2112
July 23, 2009, 05:03 PM
Some of you guys are real entertaining, that's what you are!

If this is the "real deal" and they believe they are at the right address, you aren't going to have time to "retreat to a safe room" and if by chance you do get to your gun before they make it to your room, when they see you with your shotgun "bringing it to bear", you will be dead before you get a single shot off!

:) Just cause you think someone can get into your house that fast, doesn't mean everyone else has left themselves equally as vulnerable.

I'm not saying someone couldn't get into my house if they tried. I'm just saying it would take them signifigantly longer than they thought it was going to.

ZeSpectre
July 23, 2009, 05:08 PM
I'm not saying someone couldn't get into my house if they tried. I'm just saying it would take them signifigantly longer than they thought it was going to.

Amen on that. My house is quickly getting there as we do the remodeling :D

Terry A
July 23, 2009, 05:24 PM
Today 02:43 PM
arcticap If you're not sure that they are real cops, then retreat to a safe room and call the local police to either verify who they are or to report the unlawful invasion.
They should properly identify themselves at some point during the raid, especially if there's a mistake.
Today 02:41 PM



Just trust me on this, there'll be NO TIME to do anything but maybe sit up in bed if it's a trained entry team.

I promise I'm not trying to sound like a know it all or brag or anything like that. But I've been a full time officer since 1981. I was on our county Drug Task Force entry team for 10 years. There is so much planning and rehearsing that goes into a raid. Before a house was hit, we knew which way the doors opened, inward or outward. Knew if there were dogs inside or not. Children or visitors. Location of bedrooms. Most of this came from informants who bought there or frequented the house, some came from officers who had handled calls there before. Every man on the entry team had a purpose. Some were dedicated to the stairwell and second floor. Some flooded the basement. If there were kids in the house and there were vicious dogs, one man was going in with a fire extinguisher for the dog. We had rifleman posted outside covering the upstairs or outside while the entry team approached. The breacher either broke thru or tore off the door and instantly, the house flooded with men who were trained to assault structures.
Over in a flash. Usually between 0300 and 0500. And even in the rare instances where there was somebody awake or walking around inside, the sheer surprise and speed so disoriented them that they mostly just screamed and froze in place before being instantly taken under control.

IF, and I never seen it happen, but IF someone ran for another room, there WOULD be men on him just as fast. IF he was able to slam a door, they are coming right thru it. They won't set up and stage unless it's a safe room with a steel door that somehow gets slammed before they get there.

Am I saying that no person can still get off a shot or shots at officers? No. Plenty of lawmen have been killed by all kinds of people with all kinds of weapons. But I am saying that the odds are really in favor of the speed and surprise in which the police do these things.

And ours was a small time outfit. The big city fellas are even faster and better trained. Professionals who do this regularly are not to be trifled with. Mistakes do happen for sure, but they're so rare that that is why you hear about them when they happen.

***And for the brethren here who think they have really fortified their homes against break ins, well, we've had houses where there were cameras on all 4 sides of the house and the doors were steel, windows fortified, etc. And all that was nothing compared to a tow truck that just rips the whole contraption off and while their door frame and door is clattering down the street...SURPRISE!

The police WILL get inside and it WILL be fast.

OuTcAsT
July 23, 2009, 05:34 PM
***And for the brethren here who think they have really fortified their homes against break ins, well, we've had houses where there were cameras on all 4 sides of the house and the doors were steel, windows fortified, etc. And all that was nothing compared to a tow truck that just rips the whole contraption off and while their door frame and door is clattering down the street...SURPRISE!


True, but you are leaving out some small details, like, you gotta get TO the house first. I am 99.8% sure you will not do it without giving me "advance notice" of your arrival. As for the rest, Chance favors the prepared ;)

Kyo
July 23, 2009, 05:39 PM
if people storm my house and I know I did nothing wrong, but I defend my home from them, can I get in trouble? If they thought my house was the right one but it wasn't, and they blatantly got it wrong, am I screwed anyway? just curious

hogdogs
July 23, 2009, 05:39 PM
Before a house was hit, we knew which way the doors opened, inward or outward. Knew if there were dogs inside or not. Children or visitors. Location of bedrooms. Most of this came from informants who bought there or frequented the house, some came from officers who had handled calls there before.
Thus, with all that prior planning we don't have to worry about the wrong house being raided! Only the bad guy will have his door kicked in, correct?

As for my place... There is zero chance that any of the four corners will be covered before numerous dogs alert. No one will be within 15 feet of my front door before i am awake with gun in hand. You see, I have numerous house dogs in all quadrants of the home and a yard full of hunting dogs outdoors. House is 100 yards from the roadway and the drive way isn't smooth. My dogs alert on any sound that creeps in and the windows are never closed!
But this is nothing for worry since you told us that the wrong house won't be hit as all sorts of previous surveillance has ruled out those sorts of mistakes.
Brent

csmsss
July 23, 2009, 05:42 PM
Just trust me on this, there'll be NO TIME to do anything but maybe sit up in bed if it's a trained entry team.

I promise I'm not trying to sound like a know it all or brag or anything like that. But I've been a full time officer since 1981. I was on our county Drug Task Force entry team for 10 years. There is so much planning and rehearsing that goes into a raid. Before a house was hit, we knew which way the doors opened, inward or outward. Knew if there were dogs inside or not. Children or visitors. Location of bedrooms. Most of this came from informants who bought there or frequented the house, some came from officers who had handled calls there before. Every man on the entry team had a purpose. Some were dedicated to the stairwell and second floor. Some flooded the basement. If there were kids in the house and there were vicious dogs, one man was going in with a fire extinguisher for the dog. We had rifleman posted outside covering the upstairs or outside while the entry team approached. The breacher either broke thru or tore off the door and instantly, the house flooded with men who were trained to assault structures.
Over in a flash. Usually between 0300 and 0500. And even in the rare instances where there was somebody awake or walking around inside, the sheer surprise and speed so disoriented them that they mostly just screamed and froze in place before being instantly taken under control.

IF, and I never seen it happen, but IF someone ran for another room, there WOULD be men on him just as fast. IF he was able to slam a door, they are coming right thru it. They won't set up and stage unless it's a safe room with a steel door that somehow gets slammed before they get there.

Am I saying that no person can still get off a shot or shots at officers? No. Plenty of lawmen have been killed by all kinds of people with all kinds of weapons. But I am saying that the odds are really in favor of the speed and surprise in which the police do these things.

And ours was a small time outfit. The big city fellas are even faster and better trained. Professionals who do this regularly are not to be trifled with. Mistakes do happen for sure, but they're so rare that that is why you hear about them when they happen.

***And for the brethren here who think they have really fortified their homes against break ins, well, we've had houses where there were cameras on all 4 sides of the house and the doors were steel, windows fortified, etc. And all that was nothing compared to a tow truck that just rips the whole contraption off and while their door frame and door is clattering down the street...SURPRISE!

The police WILL get inside and it WILL be fast. This is pretty comical, actually. SWAT teams are not supermen, and they are not able to miracle their way into a dwelling instantaneously, despite all of your bravado and braggadocio.

mskdgunman
July 23, 2009, 05:42 PM
This bugs me everytime I hear it and I can see both sides. As a detectives, I've written and executed close to 150 search warrants, mostly for drugs, in my time in the narc unit. I know the precautions I take and how I document the location where I'm going and the work I put into the investigations so I would truely like to know how these mistakes happen. I take great pains to positively identify my target. Still photos, property appraiser information, video, the whole 9 yards. Even if I'm not on the actual entry, I lead the entry team to the location as I know exactly where I'm going. Single family residences are one thing but apartments and rooming houses make me nervous so I take extra steps with these. After all, all apartments in a given complex look pretty much the same with the execption of the numbers on the door/mailbox and sometimes those numbers are non existant. I could envision hitting a wrong apartment. That is still no excuse, but I can see it happening.

As for what to do and how to tell it's really the cops coming in the door there is no easy answer. We generally deploy distraction devices (flash bangs) unless the situation dictates otherwise and since not many bad guys go to that length that could be a clue but short of that...what more can you do? You're suited up, marked with POLICE all over you and screaming that you're the cops and you have a warrant. I'm not sure what else can be done on our part as far as this goes. We usually do have a marked unit accompany us on warrants but you probably won't see it unless you happen to be up and look out the window.

I have to say that in the event a SWAT team hits your house, you comply and let it work itself out. Believe me, during the actual entry, no one is listening to protestations of innocence or that we have the wrong house. In our minds at that time, we're in the right place. Let the team get everything secured and things to calm down a notch. Rest assurred that any mistake will make itself apparent before long. Being right doesn't help if you're dead or injured so be smart and be cooperative. Once the mistake is realized, the PD will bend over backwards to make it right (as they should). Any way you cut it, a situation like this is just bad all the way around. It's up to everybody involved to minimize the damage in any way they can.

I've commented on the whole "no knock" thing before and as I've said, in FL, there is not such thing. NO judge I've ever met (State of Federal) will sign a warrant if you state that you want to enter without knocking/announcing. How long do you wait for an answer on a K&A? Depends on a ton of things and there is no set standard as each situation is different. You just have to justify your decision.

Hitting an indoor marijuana grow at 3:00 AM where none of the suspects have any history of violence will probably require a much longer K&A then if you were hitting a meth lab occuppied by known armed gang bangers at 4:00 PM. After all, people are probably sleeping at 0300 and it's pretty hard to destory a bunch of marijuana plants, grow lights and ballasts. It all comes down to safety and the percieved level of danger at the time based on the available information. That and common sense.

On a side note, I've always thought that it should be a crime for non LEO's to possess anything with POLICE/AGENT/SHERIFF on it but not all law makers seem to agree (at least in our area). Some stores sell POLICE shirts to whoever walks in so that complicates matters for everybody (us included). Unless the guy with the item actually portrays him/herself as a cop while wearing the item, there is generally nothing we can do. Of course, the situation at the time will dictate our response. I've just never seen any need for a non LEO to have something which may lead someone to believe that they are one. Such a person is either a wannabe, looking to cause trouble or just stupid. I for one wish Florida would change the law on this one

Dragon55
July 23, 2009, 05:50 PM
I've thought about this scenario also.

It is a mistake that is absolutely avoidable. Here's how.

The person in charge of the raid should do his/her own personal surveillance of the address before they are in command of a bunch of folks with guns.

Anytime this is not done it is a failure on the part of law enforcement.

I strongly disagree with the act of breaking down someone's door based on some quasi criminal's say so.

Anytime you hear about the cops doing this someone high up has FAILED miserably.

Doc Intrepid
July 23, 2009, 05:52 PM
"Byrd and Melanie Billings, known for adopting 13 special needs children, were killed during a robbery of their home last week. ...The suspects ...executed a well-trained and rehearsed commando-type raid of the Billing's home"...

As far as I know, video surveillance tapes showed multiple attackers entering the house in two teams, one from the front and one from the rear, simultaneously.



From inside the house I doubt you could have instantly identified whether the attackers were LEO or not.

FWIW.

Rare...but it happens.

Terry A
July 23, 2009, 06:06 PM
This is pretty comical, actually. SWAT teams are not supermen, and they are not able to miracle their way into a dwelling instantaneously, despite all of your bravado and braggadocio.

I knew that no matter how it was worded, it would be picked apart like a chicken bone.

The post was not bragging about "me" or "I" ANYWHERE, the post was from my experience, observation and knowledge of what I knew had happened in the 10 years I was part of that. I was asserting that the police DO have the upper hand by speed and surprise. You really doubt they don't? Then why do they do it the way they do and not some other way that YOU know about? You sound jealous, mad or something. Why?

That being said, sorry the CERT and SWAT boys don't wimper and pout about how can they possibly get into a house where they're not wanted. Can you give me one instance where they just gave up and left, totally clueless and unable to gain an entry or resolve the situation. What can you share from all your experinces in this matter? And I'm not talking about what you read in a magazine either or saw on your favorite TV show. How many entries have YOU done? Please edify us.

Why do a very few % here always think the police are so inept, incapable or stupid?

And Hogdogs (Brent), my post does say that although mistakes are rare, they do happen, that's why you do hear about them. Or didn't you read that far?
The police ain't perfect, but there is a stiff penalty when they're not.

csmsss
July 23, 2009, 06:17 PM
I knew that no matter how it was worded, it would be picked apart like a chicken bone.Then perhaps you should have kept it to yourself.

The post was not bragging about "me" or "I" ANYWHERE, the post was from my experience, observation and knowledge of what I knew had happened in the 10 years I was part of that. I was asserting that the police DO have the upper hand by speed and surprise. You really doubt they don't? Then why do they do it the way they do and not some other way that YOU know about? You sound jealous, mad or something. Why?Your assertion is that ALL of these SWAT and similar rapid-response teams are so capable, when the fact is the level of training and capability varies wildly from team to team. Some are full-time, and do nothing but train for their SWAT duties, whereas others are only part-time or, worse, overtime SWAT teams that can't even assemble in less than 30 minutes (I happen to know this is the case with the Beaumont PD team). They are as competent as their training and equipment allow them to be, but not all police departments are funded sufficiently to develop this capability.

That being said, sorry the CERT and SWAT boys don't wimper and pout about how can they possibly get into a house where they're not wanted. I never said they do this behavior. You're raising a strawman here, to what end I cannot discern.

Can you give me one instance where they just gave up and left, totally clueless and unable to gain an entry or resolve the situation. What can you share from all your experinces in this matter? And I'm not talking about what you read in a magazine either or saw on your favorite TV show. How many entries have YOU done? Please edify us.Again, another strawman. I never suggested they ever do this. My point is that they are not each and every one the crack team of operators you suggest they are. If anyone is speaking as though his sole exposure to SWAT teams is through magazines and TV shows, it's you, sir (or madam, as the case may be).

Why do a very few % here always think the police are so inept, incapable or stupid?Why do a very few % here (like you, perhaps?) think that citizens are so inept, incapable or stupid?

The police ain't perfect, but there is a stiff penalty when they're not.Sometimes. Other times, not so much.

p99guy
July 23, 2009, 06:35 PM
One tecnique is wait and see if they kill your dog....if they do they are legitamate, but wait home invaders dressed like ersatz Task force guys do the same thing... Ok, so the dog thing isnt a good way to judge.

ok, ok I got it...meet them at the front door and point a gun..if they are legit, they will shoot you full of holes. Well, wait...the ersatz task force guys will do the same thing. hmmmmmm.

Ok, i'm at a loss here....if you resist, both will hurt you...If you don't resist, you and your dog can still be killed.


You are simply not going to get the upper hand with a bedside pistol....it would take a ultra violent military grade response (tossing fragmentation grenades, spraying massive amounts of high penetration beltfed gunfire through walls to the point that the invaders are pretty sure they arent going to live over this)
None of which is neibor friendly, and your property insurance is going to go though the roof:D ( did i mention the foogas?)

Terry A
July 23, 2009, 06:37 PM
My point is that they are not each and every one the crack team of operators you suggest they are. If anyone is speaking as though his sole exposure to SWAT teams is through magazines and TV shows, it's you, sir (or madam, as the case may be).

csmsss,
I gotta give you credit where credit is due my friend, THAT was a good one.:D All the fire just went out of me and you got me smiling.

For the record, I am a dude, not a "madam".

This is a public forum. None of us can really expect that everybody will always agree with us 100% of the time. Sometimes, it does get frustrating though, but at the end of the day, we're all about the same. We all love our guns and enjoy the banter that goes with being gun owners. Frustrating as it can sometimes be.....

Have a good evening csmsss! :)

pax
July 23, 2009, 06:44 PM
And on that note, I do believe this one has run its course.

The purpose of the Tactics & Training forum on TFL is to discuss the tactics and the training people need in order to survive criminal encounters. That's it. It's not to tear each other down, to speculate about politics, to gripe about police activity, or anything else of that nature. It's to discuss tactics and training for criminal encounters.

pax