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Hunley
July 20, 2009, 08:19 PM
I have a situation on my hunting club... A hog situation. The first problem is they have gone unchecked, are about 100 in number (on 200 acres), and are currently running the deer away. The second is that I have been asked to cut back on shooting them right before deer season to keep the deer from getting "gunshy" or startling them off the property.

So... Suppressor it is. I am looking at 3 options and need sound advice.

1. Buy a .22 rifle and suppress it. I would probably use CCI Stingers and try to get straight headshots. The sound concerns me though as I've heard they are still kinda loud due to the bullet speeds.

2. Take my Armalite AR and suppress it. This idea appeals to me due to the high capacity, but I'm wondering about audible noise. I've been old it can vary dramatically and don't want to alter my one AR for some stupid hogs.

3. Take my Remington 700 SPS Tactical in .308, thread the barrel, and get a supressor for it. Rate of fire would be drastically lower, but it would be quieter. Just worried about the cost aspect as the 22 would end up running about the same after everything was said and done.

Since I'm new to the Class III world, I'll leave this to you guys to discuss.

Superhouse 15
July 20, 2009, 08:51 PM
My thoughts, and I'm new to suppressors myself.

First, make sure suppressors are legal to own, and are legal to take hogs. I'm not exactly sure of your laws, but they may or may not be classified as "game" animals. Suppressors may or may not be legal to hunt with, the laws may be different on private property or for controlling "nuisance" animals. If you do choose .22, it may or may not be legal for hunting. I can't help you there.

The .22 will be the quietest, even with supersonic ammo. I wouldn't care to shoot mild subsonic ammo at a hog and hope for a clean kill, and even the CCI would be marginal in power. Maybe if you could guarantee head shots at close range, like over a feeder, and ambush them.

Your AR would be the easiest to suppress without alteration assuming the barrel is threaded 1/2 x 28. It will have the power to take a hog with the right ammo. The bullet will still be supersonic and it will be louder than the .22. There's just more gas and blast to suppress. There are .22 AR conversions, too.

If you don't want to alter your AR, I wouldn't recommend buying a stock .308 and going through the trouble of barrel threading, etc. It has plenty 'o power for hogs and a wide selection of bullets appropriate for hunting them.

You might look or ask here also:
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/
(free) registration required

Legion2600
July 20, 2009, 09:38 PM
Suppressors are legal in Ga. and pretty sure there's no problem shooting feral pigs with them. To be sure though just ask these guys -- they sponsor night hunts for them in Southern Georgia. Neat videos too:

www.jagerpro.com

kiwi56
July 20, 2009, 10:15 PM
The weapon I use in this situation is my full length supressed Marlin Camp carbine in 45ACP This rifle is so quiet the loudest noises you can hear is the bolt cycling and the bullet hitting the target. Handloads are worked up to give a velocity of around a 1060 ft per second with a 200grain jacketed hollow point bullet.
Velocities are typically about 180 ft per second up on what you would get out of the same load fired in a handgun.
Believe me it is noticable when the bullets go through the sound barrier as you get a little bit of a crack but nowhere near as bad as an unsuppressed round. I get in to within 60 yards of the animal and they don't know what has hit them.
Advantage of the suppressor rifle combo is that with cover the pigs don't know which way to run and you can usually nail a couple before they work out where you are.
Depending on the size of the Pig I would not attempt to shoot one with a .22lr if they are as large as the ones where I shoot as all you would do is PI$$ it off.

lockedcj7
July 20, 2009, 10:19 PM
I was seriously considering a 9 mm carbine using a suppressor and 147gr. subsonic ammo for nuisance animal work. I figured it would have plenty of power for most animals including deer if I restricted myself to head shots at very close range. I never followed through with the paperwork and ended up selling the carbine.

Not too long after, I bought a .22 lr can and started the paperwork. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a hog in the head with it. Many a hog has gone to slaughter after being shot in the head with a .22 pistol.

If finances allow, I might revisit the 9 mm concept later. FWIW- professional nuisance guys who do a lot of deer culling seem to prefer head shots using a suppressed 22-250. It virtually guarantees a clean kill and no ricochets.

kiwi56
July 20, 2009, 11:03 PM
I shoot a 22-250AI but have never really considered it a suitable deer cartridge, don't get me wrong I know guys who have shot deer with a 223 but to put it quite simply there are far better cartridges out there to get the job done. Over here our short shots on deer are about 100 meters and long shots can be close to 500 meters the long shots are getting a little too long for even a 22-250. In those situations I use either my 25-06AI or my 30-06AI.
Cartridges like the 22-250 and the 243 and for that matter most mid to high power rifle cartridges can have the muzzle blast reduced but you cannot eliminate the sonic crack of the bullet going through the sound barrier.
The only way to effectively quieten these weapons is to come up with a cartridge like the whisper cartridge where you have a small capacity case punching out a very long heavy bullet at a velocity close to or better still just under the sound barrier.
A friend, against my advice decided to buy a suppressor for his 270. It was not a good choice of caliber to try and quieten as the suppressor didn't really seem to make much difference to the noise level at all. It was just a plain waste of money as it now sits in his basement gathering dust.
The trouble was he expected Hollywood quiet out of it and that was never going to happen. I would estimate that his suppressor may have dropped the noise level down to that of a normal 22-250 or 243 round being fired.

Boone Hillbilly
July 20, 2009, 11:27 PM
Dont know if it has been covered but you may wantto contact your local DNR and talk with them about the use of a supressor while hunting.. Not listed in WV regs but it is a no no.. Short ribs in th eslow cooker sounds like a winner though..lol

kiwi56
July 21, 2009, 02:32 AM
Suppressors for hunting are perfectly legal over here but I understand in the States may be different. Different states may have their own rules regarding suppressors, be interesting to find out. I guess you could say you were not hunting that it was pest control, the fact that you ate the animals had nothing what so ever to do with it, lol::D

Wiskey_33
July 21, 2009, 06:47 AM
Suppressors are legal in Ga. and pretty sure there's no problem shooting feral pigs with them. To be sure though just ask these guys -- they sponsor night hunts for them in Southern Georgia. Neat videos too:

www.jagerpro.com

They don't use suppressors on their hunts.

Best place to ask would be DNR/Game Warden.

Hunley
July 21, 2009, 08:54 AM
It is okay to hunt with them in GA. I've both looked into to it and talked with people who have done it.

The main thing I'm wondering on is noise. Which is gonna be the loudest?

jmorris
July 21, 2009, 09:36 AM
The .22 would be fine if they are in a trap and much more effective than hunting. There are some traps that have the capability to trap many hogs you just have to Google for different designs.

I know, but where is the fun in that. When we do hunt them I set up some game radios I built (photos below) using infrared motion detectors and digital voice recorders. This allows me to “hunt” many areas at the same time. Once the radio alerts, all you have to do is stalk within shooting distance. I bury the bait so deer don’t set off the radio and use pet lenses in the motion detectors so other critters don’t set them off. The best set up I have for shooting them is a suppressed 458 socom pushing 500grain bullet at 1025fps. It’s very quiet until the bullet hits.

Hunley
July 21, 2009, 11:21 AM
There won't be any traps. I see them as pests as they are destroying darn near everything in the hunting club. I just don't want to startle the deer and I'm asking for what would be the most quiet:

1 - Suppressed 10/22 with something like CCI Stingers or Mini-Mags

2 - Suppressed Armalite M15 with standard ammo

3 - Suppressed Remington 700 SPS Tactical .308 with standard ammo

Joat
July 21, 2009, 02:20 PM
AssUmIng equal quality of suppressors, the level of quiet would be 1,3,2.

The 22 may or may not go supersonic (16 or 18" barrel). Mine sounds like a quality spring piston gun.
I think the 308 will be quieter due to the fact of a closed/locked action. Bolt guns are usually quieter than semis when suppressed (no noise from action) This should balance the larger cartridge/powder load.

Joat

flight954
July 21, 2009, 04:08 PM
Go with #2 and get a Gem Tech G5. It comes w/ a 3 lug flash hider that you just replace your stock flash hider. It about as loud as an unsupressed .22LR

jmorris
July 21, 2009, 04:30 PM
There won't be any traps. I see them as pests as they are destroying darn near everything in the hunting club. I just don't want to startle the deer and I'm asking for what would be the most quiet:


1,3,2 or 3,1,2 depending on ammo and suppressor unless you get an adjustable gas block that will shut completely off then 2 could get as quite. A 22lr is almost the last choice I would make for hogs although it would be better than 22 shorts or cb caps. I view hogs as pests too and traping is much more effective than hunting as they are "hunting" all of the time.

kiwi56
July 21, 2009, 07:37 PM
A friend of mine has the ideal combination for pigs it is a Ruger lever action carbine in 44mag. It looks like it is from the same family as the 10-22 but of course is a lever gun, it has the same suppressor fitted as my Marlin but he is shooting 300grain bullets downloaded slightly to put muzzle velocity just below the speed of sound it is excellent on pigs with several large ones being taken at 100 yards plus.
Regarding the Stingers they would definitely be supersonic as I chrono'd some fired out of my Gervarm and they were about 1600ft per second, you might actually be better to consider the Aguila 60 grainers as even though they are travelling slower they are nearly twice the weight of the stinger bullet and would retain more energy when penetrating the animal.

kiwi56
July 23, 2009, 04:07 PM
Like I said before there are better calibers to use than .22 long rifle for under 100yards a suppressed 357 or better still a 44 magnum would work well as would some of the smaller rifle centerfires like the 22 hornet, all of these calibers could be suppressed to the sound levels you require. I know for a fact that the the 357 and 44mag will not be totally silent but with the right suppressor and handloads the sound will be greatly reduced. These cartridges will have far more stopping power than a .22lr. Head shots on a pig with a .22lr doesn't always guarantee a clean kill I have witnessed a 130 pound boar get hit it the forehead with a Winchester powerpoint from 30 meters and it didn't even stop it from charging, after the animal was dispatched with a more suitable caliber we decided to try and find the .22 bullet, it hadn't even penetrated the animals scull. I don't know what size the pigs are that you are having problems with at the hunting club but with pigs you always need to plan on a worst case scenario. I have a scar on my left leg caused by a wild boars tusk that required 20 stitches to show what happens when you really pi$$ one off. I made an assumption that the animal was dead, believe me I will never do that again. Just as well my partner was there with her .357

trigger happy
July 23, 2009, 04:17 PM
There is no closed season and no limit on hogs on private land. Hunting over bait, from a vehicle or at night with a light over 6 volts is prohibited. A hunting license is required for all hunters 16 years or older (except for residents on land owned by them or their immediate family residing in the same household).* Landowners and leaseholders with landowner permission may qualify for a feral hog control permit to help alleviate hog damage and control hog numbers. Permit holders are allowed to shoot from a vehicle, use a 12-volt light and/or shoot hogs in the vicinity of bait. Contact a WRD Regional Game Management Office for assistance

kiwi56
July 23, 2009, 10:21 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/fullauto/Marlin45ACPCampCarbine.jpg








The attached pic is my suppressed Marlin Camp Carbine in 45acp
Favorite load is 6.2grains of ADI AP70 (this powder is also known as Hodgdon Universal) under a 200 grain jacketed hollow point bullet this gives chronographed velocities of around 1050ft per second just keeping the bullets below the speed of sound. I still able to kill a pig at 100 meters and on a still day can group five shots into around 1.5 inches shooting from a rest.

PTK
July 24, 2009, 02:11 AM
If I may...

An NEF single-shot .45/70 is an inexpensive option, and subsonic ammo is easily loaded. A few different outfits would make you a pretty inexpensive integral silencer for it. Using a 405gr bullet going ~1000fps, you can drop a hog very easily with very little noise.

Total cost can come in well under $800, stamp included.

Just a thought. :)

kiwi56
July 24, 2009, 02:25 AM
That reminds me of one of my work colleagues, he had an old Husqvarna Rolling block in the Swedish 50 cal 12.7 x 44mm which is the Swedish equivalent of the 50-70. His son who is a gunsmith made a full length supressor for it. That rifle was a little awkward to use but was very quiet because he had also reduced his smokeless loads to just below the speed of sound with a 500 grain bullet. While not silent was still quiet enough to really confuse any other goats, pigs or deer the noise was probably the same as a car door being closed quietly.

PTK
July 24, 2009, 02:32 AM
Yes, indeed! I was fortunate enough to fire a silenced .45-70 a while back, and I've been wanting one ever since. Something just giggle-worthy about a 405gr lead slug being flung out, recoil and all, without any serious noise. I'd say it was about on par with a silenced subsonic .22lr out of a bolt action with a K-baffle silencer of decent quality... low 120s, possibly even high 100-teens in decibels. VERY quiet. :)

jmorris
July 24, 2009, 07:00 AM
Here is a video of my F1 458 SOCOM suppressor. http://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/can/458socom/?action=view&current=458.flv
The 458 has pretty much the same ballistics as the 45-70 except the 458 works better with faster powders (another bonus for suppression) and you can’t get a 45-70 ar15.

Maybe we’ll see the ultimate hog buster when PTK gets some photos of his new 50bmg, though I never could get anyone to carry mine around.

PTK
July 24, 2009, 11:44 AM
I got that 50 for a friend. I could never feed one myself! :o

Crosshair
July 25, 2009, 12:35 AM
Go with #2 and get a Gem Tech G5. It comes w/ a 3 lug flash hider that you just replace your stock flash hider. It about as loud as an unsupressed .22LR
No offense, but there are MUCH better cans available than the G5, especially considering the price.

Many electrons have been inconvenienced debating this topic and I'm probably going to get a few flames from the Gemtech fans, but the evidence shows the G5 to be a substandard can considering the price range it is in. G5 has yet to answer the accusations about the construction of the G5.

Link (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250967)

Video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1379578571480670832&ei=p5NqSpi3F4_4rAK-8NWLBg&q=Gemtech+G5+fail&hl=en&client=firefox-a)

Video 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjveMwnwIvs)

The three I can recommend from personal observation are as follows. There are plenty of other good cans out there, but I'm going to only mention the ones I have handled.

Tac-Inc TAC-16. I own one of these. They used to be much cheaper than they are currently. I used to recommend them more vocally, but now considering the price there are better options out there. It's one redeeming feature is that it is take apart, meaning repairs are much easier should you get baffle and/or endcap strikes. (Not much of a problem, but a possibility.)

YHM Pahntom. Good cans, decent price. Their .308 model actually gets rather good suppression on an AR-15 as a fellow suppressor owner I know does this with good results. Not as good as a 5.56 can mind you, but if you want the option of .308 it would be an option.

AAC M4-1000. Another superb can, though I personally prefer screw on cans and not quick detach. Didn't spend much time with it.

Willie Lowman
July 25, 2009, 04:09 PM
You do know that you would be looking at a 3 month wait if you have a dealer on hand that has the suppressor you want in stock.

If you have to order it, you aren't gonna have it by deer season.

Enron Exec
July 25, 2009, 08:13 PM
Funny, i have a Gemtech G5, one of my friends has the M4-1000, and another has the YHM Phantom. Out of our 16" carbines, the G5 was significantly more quiet thent he M4-1000 and a hair quieter then the Phantom. It also has the quickest detach/attach bi-lock.

That AAC video is propaganda, every suppressor fired rapid enough will eventually self destruct. When you need to unleash 500 rnds in 10 mins and not only 450 from your AR, then maybe its worth losing sleep at night. :cool:

kiwi56
July 25, 2009, 09:12 PM
Willie your script at the bottom of your post is incorrect as you cannot silence a mid to hi power centerfire rifle round. By silence I mean as the Oxford conscice dictionary states "silent" meaning no audible noise. I have seen no so called silencers that could truly make a weapon silent, hell even a blow pipe makes a noise. However you can suppress them and get the sound level down usually by at least 60% sometimes more, I don't know why people insist on using the word silent or silence when their rifles are not. Would your "silenced" rifle stand up to a test with a sound level meter to show that it was truly silent, I seriously doubt it. Even taking into account the supersonic speed of the bullet if you took a blank cartridge and put it in the rifle would it still be silent then, I don't think so.
I had a friend used to say he bought something that was brand new reconditioned and that reminds me a lot about the words silence as used in suppressor. Just poor use of the English language. Either something is truly silent or it is not there are no half measures, your weapon is suppressed or sound moderated.

Crosshair
July 25, 2009, 10:25 PM
Out of our 16" carbines, the G5 was significantly more quiet thent he M4-1000 and a hair quieter then the Phantom. It also has the quickest detach/attach bi-lock.
I never said it wasn't quiet. As far as suppression, people seem to like the G5. I was just pointing out that it has serious design deficiencies when it comes to durability.

That AAC video is propaganda, every suppressor fired rapid enough will eventually self destruct. When you need to unleash 500 rnds in 10 mins and not only 450 from your AR, then maybe its worth losing sleep at night.

Then please refute the points the video makes. Explain the complete lack of structural welds. Did they disappear with the rapid firing? The use of roll pins and titanium for a high-stress/high temp environment. Roll pins are something you rarely see even in Form 1 garage cans. (My washer baffle TAC-16 doesn't even use them.) The use of a pinned inconel insert instead of a full inconel blast baffle.

There is also the other video I posted where the G5 is clearly puking its guts partway through the first round.

The military really doesn't openly release the test results of it's suppressor testing, they always refer to the different test samples using numbers. From what I have read, even the top contenders suffered damage from the test, but they survived while maintaining suppressability and without catastrophic damage.

The point is that the G5 may be a quiet can, but it most certainly is not a mil-spec can as Gemtech claims and one would be ill advised to put it on anything more than a bolt gun.

Enron Exec
July 25, 2009, 11:21 PM
I cant dispute your argument of the construction on the G5 can. But, no where on their website does it say welded this or that in the G5. As for that video where the Gemtech sales rep talks about welded this and that, I put very lil stock in the words of a salesman, especially whos background i know nothing of.

In this video, a M4-1000 looked like it didnt survive 1 round of the test. I know its an older gen can, but these things arent exactly advancing by leaps and bounds. So how come this AAC can failed?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjiDtrA3P8A

And vid1 shows the test indoors, guys in T-shirts, with static air. But most importantly, its on a 10.5" barrel, unlike the AAC M4-1000 can on what looked like a carbine length barrel, out doors, with guys wearing jackets.
http://www.hi-upload.com/upload/uploaded11/HK416-10.5.JPG

Did the lil kid at the end of vid2 call the test in vid 1 BS? lol Cause it sure looked like they reproduced the test outdoors on a 10.5" colt commando setup and the G5 looked as good as it was before the test.

In the end, i still dont buy that the G5 is an inferior can. When they get 2 of the same guns under the same conditions testing 2 different cans, id be more privy to believe these types of vids. :)

PTK
July 26, 2009, 05:38 AM
I know its an older gen can, but these things arent exactly advancing by leaps and bounds

As I wasn't present on the testing incidents you're referring to, I won't touch the other points.

However - and this is a big deal - AAC improves almost every model they have at least once a year. My 2008 762SD was significantly different, and quieter, then a friend's 2006 762SD. My 2008 M4-1000 is quieter and somewhat heavier (probably much more robust) than the 2005 I test-shot at my dealer's house.

The Evo-45 2008 model I have is quieter than their 2006 model - I shot them side-by-side both with 5mL of water, mine on my HK USP-T, the 2006 on my dealer's HK USP-T.

Just thought I'd throw my $.02 in regarding the innovation in this field.

jmorris
July 26, 2009, 09:52 AM
I have seen no so called silencers that could truly make a weapon silent

I have a .22lr can that I built that has no audible report using subsonic ammunition. It makes less noise when firing ammunition than when dry firing as the brass soaks up energy from the firing pin. I looked for a while for one of the Krico/Beeman electronic ignition .22 bolt guns so I could have a truly silent rifle but they only imported 200 or so of them.

I know its an older gen can, but these things arent exactly advancing by leaps and bounds.

My M4 1000 08 (that is supposedly the same as a M4 2000 07) is completely different than my M4 2000 08.

I guess I don’t understand why this discussion is running around .223 cans. Was this about coyotes or hogs?

kiwi56
July 26, 2009, 05:07 PM
Jmorris, If you read our previous posts we were talking about mid to high power centerfire suppressors and even with relatively low powered handgun center fire such as 38special or or down loaded 9mm they will not be truly silent. I have no doubt with those calibers you could build a can that was almost noise free but the can would be so big as to be not very practical to use. You can reduce sound levels dramatically as I have found on my 45 but silent is just plain b/s

jmorris
July 26, 2009, 08:19 PM
I have read the previous posts and 12 of them mention something about .22 rimfire.
I agree that “Hollywood” quiet is what many envision every suppressed firearm to sound like and are disappointed when they hear how loud they really are but you said “no” (as in any) I was just pointing out that there are some out there.

Singlesix1954
July 26, 2009, 11:56 PM
45 acp with suppresor is the way to go. Lots of momentem and little report. Once you shoot one you will start to understand why the idiots made it a law to pay the tax for a permit.