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.284
July 13, 2009, 08:33 PM
Living in Michigan, I, for the 25 or so years I've been deer hunting have seen our state's DNR make their share of deer management mistakes. We have so many deer in our state that they really have to try hard to screw things up. Believe me they've tried. I don't think the DNR has a clue how many deer there really is. We are told that it's 1.5-1.8 million. While other states have mandatory check-in stations and required return of unused kill tags, Michigan counts vehicles loaded with deer coming across the Mackinaw Bridge for their Upper Penisula harvest numbers. Ah, but my thread title is on the subject of baiting. Well, this is now a hot bed of coals in Michigan because all baitng (even recreational feeding) has been made illegal in the Lower Penisula. It's a huge debate involving not only hunters but, the farmers who grow the crops and the store owners who sell it. I, personally, don't bait when hunting. I don't have anything against those who do. I do believe that a pile of corn can never and will never replace woodsmanship. Just thought I would throw this out there because it's such a big deal in my neck of the woods. So, what's the opinion on baiting for deer?

cornbush
July 13, 2009, 08:39 PM
Can't do it here, can't really say if I would or wouldn't do it if I could. I don't think it's neccersarily wrong, just don't know if I would or not.

fisherman66
July 13, 2009, 08:41 PM
I have no problem with baiting. Sitting in a stand overlooking a pile of corn is not my favorite style of hunting, but it sure beats going a year with no venison.

Greg.B
July 13, 2009, 08:53 PM
The baiting ban in Michigan isn't meant to reduce the number of deer taken; it's meant to limit the spread of disease (specifically, CWD) by preventing baiting and recreational feeding, which unnaturally concentrates the deer in a specific area, where the disease is spread by direct contact with infected animals, as well as contact with the area which becomes contaminated with feces from infected animals.

This was put in place after CWD was verified in the lower peninusla; I believe it doesn't apply for the upper peninusla, but may be mistaken.

It seems like the DNR there is doing things to protect the deer herd, not to 'screw things up'.

cornbush
July 13, 2009, 08:58 PM
There are some areas out here where the fish and game feeds in really hard winters, they have stopped in some areas for that same reason. Hadn't thought of that in relation to baiting deer.

.284
July 13, 2009, 09:19 PM
I know that the baiting ban was put in place to stop the spread of disease. I am not arguing that. Infact, baiting restrictions were first put in place here to stop the spread of Bovine TB. Five counties in the N.E. Lower Penisula had a ban on feeding and the rest of the state was limited to 2 gallons of feed on the ground at any one time.

Also, Michigan compared to other states, does fall short in their management of the resource. Hey, at least now they are trying to get their poop in a group.

Again, I was just interested in seeing who's for or against the practice of baiting. I feel it takes away from part of the romance of "growing up" in the woods. Tracking, reading sign, and paterning the game you're after is becoming a lost art.

publius
July 13, 2009, 11:29 PM
i spend my time between MS. & TX. Baiting is legal in TX but not in MS. I do have corn feeders up in TX and they are good to shoot the damn pigs under but I have noticed that the big bucks tend to avoid the feeders. the spread of CWD may be MI's reasoning for banning baiting but I'm not sold on their reasoning. I've seen much larger concentrations of deer in new soybean fields than under feeders.

700REM
July 14, 2009, 04:33 AM
The only bait I know of looks like this.

rjrivero
July 14, 2009, 04:43 AM
Ethically, how is baiting any differnent than planting clover or other deer feed crop?

I ask out of curiosity. In the area I hunt, food is plentiful so baiting isn't really a benefit. My plans are to hunt the routes between bedding and water. So far, it works out.

VaFisher
July 14, 2009, 06:14 AM
Member


Join Date: 2008-02-05
Location: Evansville, IN
Posts: 47 The baiting ban in Michigan isn't meant to reduce the number of deer taken; it's meant to limit the spread of disease (specifically, CWD) by preventing baiting and recreational feeding, which unnaturally concentrates the deer in a specific area, where the disease is spread by direct contact with infected animals, as well as contact with the area which becomes contaminated with feces from infected animals.


Ask ted Nuent about baiting and spead of disease. He said it a has been proved that no diseases are transmited feeding or baiting and what they claim is nothing more then BS. He noted a test in CA as reference if I remember right!

rantingredneck
July 14, 2009, 06:56 AM
I have no problem with baiting where legal. I've done it myself (and still do at times) when I'm hunting smaller plots of land where food resources aren't as plentiful. My main hunting spot is a 6500 acre dairy farm though with corn and soybean fields as well as plots of big woods with good acorn ridges. When I'm hunting there baiting is pointless. The bait's already there :D.

glockman55
July 14, 2009, 07:04 AM
I don't think 2 gal. of bait in one spot has much of a threat of spreading Disease, but those embezzles that had to dump truck loads of bait messed it up here in Mich. The DNR had to stop the over baiting and this is a way to slow it down. The U.P is next if people don't follow the rules. I hunt the U.P and don't use bait, but some in my Camp do. I don't have a problem with baiting as long as they don't get stupid and over bait. As far as the reason for the ban, What, one Deer found in a fenced in Deer farm with CWD?

Art Eatman
July 14, 2009, 09:39 AM
I was a walking/stalking hunter, 90% of the time. My preference. But a guy raised in town and "living behind a desk" probably will only eat deer meat if he hunts from a stand. Just a fact of life, seems to me.

I dunno. As long as a guy's following the wildlife agency's rules, how he does his deal isn't any of my business. Hey, Hank Williams, Sr., summed it up some 60 or so years back: "If you mind your own business, then you won't be minding mine."

Brian Pfleuger
July 14, 2009, 10:19 AM
I, personally, don't bait when hunting. I don't have anything against those who do. I do believe that a pile of corn can never and will never replace woodsmanship. Just thought I would throw this out there because it's such a big deal in my neck of the woods. So, what's the opinion on baiting for deer?

So far as "replace woodsmanship".... have you ever watched those hunting shows? Go sit by a feeder and wait. Now, truly, a pile of corn in a huge patch of natural woods IS quite a bit different but under the right circumstances it can make all the difference.


I think setting up feeding stations in places where deer do not otherwise have enough food is just plain wrong. A pile of corn in the middle of the woods has me pretty indifferent. If it's illegal, don't. If it's not, whatever floats your boat.

Double Naught Spy
July 14, 2009, 08:46 PM
Ask ted Nuent about baiting and spead of disease. He said it a has been proved that no diseases are transmited feeding or baiting and what they claim is nothing more then BS. He noted a test in CA as reference if I remember right!

I don't think Teddy is taking our calls. He isn't a wildlife biologist of any sort, I don't believe. He may be a hunter, but not necessarily a person know knows wildlife diseases. If there is a reference for baiting not spreading disease, then that would be the source to turn to and not some second hand source such as Ted Nugent.

Of course, others feel differently than Teddy apparently does...
http://dnr.wi.gov/news/DNRNews_article_Lookup.asp?id=893
http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/valleyoutdoors169.php
http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/outdoor-activities/hunting/alternative-methods/deer-baiting.htm/printable
http://www.michigandnr.com/publications/pdfs/huntingwildlifehabitat/Issue_Reviews/99baiting.pdf

ZeroJunk
July 14, 2009, 09:09 PM
Last I heard they are not 100% sure how the spongiforms are transmitted. But, it would make sense that any activity that increased the close contact of whatever animals had the disease would make it worse.


I am too lazy to haul bags of corn around, but I have planted as much as 20 acres of food plots, usually oats or wheat because the deer can't just eat it to death. Might be slick as a putting green by winter though.

.284
July 14, 2009, 09:16 PM
I work with a guy that, with his friend, put in a 3 acre food plot with a walk behind rototiller.........that's nuttier than squirrel crap.

30-30remchester
July 14, 2009, 10:12 PM
I dont shoot tame animals or baited animals or shoot from a tree stand over or near a food plot and call it "HUNTING". I call it a harvest. Just like shooting a tame cow in a field. Sometimes animals need "harvesting", and nothing is wrong with this in MHO, however it aint hunting. No skill is needed.

oneounceload
July 14, 2009, 10:18 PM
Personally, sitting a stand over a food plot or corn pile isn't "deer hunting", it's "deer waiting".....I used to live out West, there not only was any type of food plot or baiting illegal, even parking by a watering hole could get you in trouble.....I guess there are differing views on what constitutes "fair chase"

tmd11111
July 14, 2009, 11:22 PM
I lived in Kansas for 9 years when I was in the Army. Baiting was illegal back then (not sure about now). We tracked our deer during dove and quail season. Then when deer season opened we atleast had an idea of where to HUNT. Lot's and lots of public hunting land, big deer, and not over crowded. Yes there was lots of farm land to hunt over, but thats exactly what it was FARM land.

Then I retired and moved to West Texas. Completely different here. First off, pretty much the whole state is private property so you have to pay to play. This has changed it to a rich mans sport. Anywhere that does offer hunting for a nominal fee ($$$), the land is fenced in (canned hunt). Feeders are used for several months before season opens. Big day comes, pay the man, climb into a tree stand, aka 2 story tree house with a/c and kitchenette. Sit around drink coffee, tell war stories with your buddies, all while watching the feeder and the open lane that was cut to it. Deer steps out, BAM....got your deer... No skill involved what so ever. Heck, all you have to do is make a reservation and on your way to the property stop by Wal-Mart to pick up a dozen doughnuts, a 30.06 and a box of bullets. After the hunt swing back by walmart to return the rifle and get your money back. See how easy it is to get that culled trophy you always wanted.

FYI, I don't care how long you boil those antlers, their still too tuff to chew. :D

Doodlebugger45
July 14, 2009, 11:49 PM
Baiting for deer here just isn't done. I guess it could work but why bother? The whitetails congregate in the alfalfa fields anyway so if that's what you want just go talk to a farmer and shoot the dang deer. Mule deer seem a bit different than the whitetails here. I guess baiting might work but I don't see people doing it.

Now elk and black bear is a different deal. For elk there is a big ethics controversy as to whether it's OK to put out salt. Never mind the corn, elk are addicted to salt licks. On the outskirts of Yellowstone it used to be common practice to pack up salt blocks to lure the elk into an area. Yeah it's highly illegal but I think there are people who still do it. And black bears love a free feed. They used to take a horse into the back country and kill it for bear bait. You can't do that now, but people still can take in their favorite bear bait in a jar and spread it around. There's all kinds of arguments for and against it. As for me I guess I'm just too dang lazy to try to circumvent the laws to even try things like those. If I get a shot at an elk or bear that's cool. Otherwise, there's always next year for me.

700REM
July 15, 2009, 05:47 AM
Yeah I agree.I say we get rid of all acorn trees,corn fields,soy bean fields,wheat fields etc etc..how ridiculos is this thread.:rolleyes:

tmd11111
July 15, 2009, 06:00 AM
Yeah I agree.I say we get rid of all acorn trees,corn fields,soy bean fields,wheat fields etc etc..how ridiculos is this thread

I think there's a misconception here between a food plot and baiting. I've seen planted fields that were so big you couldnt see the other side. Definately narrows down the area to hunt, still need to look for scrapes and tracks to see where they are coming and going.

A feeder on the othe hand is nothing more then a food trough that is always there for the taking. Animals get used to going by there fir their daily snack. I know guys that spend thousand of bucks $$$ (pun intended) on corn to keep these filled in the months leading up to the season opener.

Sorry I feel like this is no different the the catfish pool for kids at boat shows and carnivals. Or the proverbal saying "Like shooting fish in a barrel". I dont see any sportsmenship in it what so ever.

Doyle
July 15, 2009, 07:10 AM
Down here in Fl, supplemental feeding is considered almost essential - especially if you have a relatively small place to hunt. Consider our situation. I hunt on a small cattle lease that is only about 250 acres. It is surrounded by much larger properties that have better cover and food (unfortunately, I can't hunt those properties). We have to run feeders year-round just to keep the deer interested in straying over to our area.

The feeders only spin out for 2 or 3 seconds at a times twice a day. It doesn't provide enough corn to really feed them, just keep them interested in the area. By far, most of the corn is eaten after dark. In fact, we very seldom see a deer actually come to the feeder looking for a meal.

It doesn't really "bait" them for shooting purposes. It just keeps them in the area so that we have a better chance of seeing them.

700REM
July 15, 2009, 07:14 AM
Sure your right.and lets get rid of the sunflower fields and milo fields when dove hunting.I dont like people who use a feeder for the sole purpose of hunting.We have feeders all over the place but it not an area used for hunting.Guess you just have to know the difference.

Gbro
July 15, 2009, 07:55 AM
Mn outlawed baiting years back and I attended the public input meetings that take place prior to regulation changes.
This was way before CWD . The DNR stated that they wanted to get baiting under control before it became the problem that it is in Michigan. The example given was the hunters on public property were complaining because private landowners were baiting their property's so heavily that they were not getting opportunity's on public lands. They showed pictures of dump truck loads of pumpkins being used as bait.
To the surprise of many of us at the meeting, we learned that it had never been illegal to hunt over a salt lick. Mineral blocks are not bait in the MN DNR rules.
I myself have never baited. I do not see any difference between baiting and planting a garden just for hunting over either.
I do not fault anyone who puts the amount of work into deer harvesting that food gardens require. As long as what the hunter is doing is legal why would I care. I just don't do it myself.

AJG
July 15, 2009, 08:15 AM
Put down a stack of $100's in the middle of the 5th avenue in NY City and its the same thing!

Deer ( any wild animal) is drawn to food like people are drawn to money... takes them out of thier natural tendancies...

Hunting is hunting... not baiting... just like fishing is fishing... not catching.

ZeroJunk
July 15, 2009, 08:15 AM
I work with a guy that, with his friend, put in a 3 acre food plot with a walk behind rototiller.........that's nuttier than squirrel crap

I bought a $40,000 John Deere 5410 4X4 with a loader, a 13 foot grain drill, 9 foot disc and an 80 inch rotary tiller pretty much just do do food plots. Nutty? Probably. But, I get a kick out of it.

Art Eatman
July 15, 2009, 09:58 AM
Nothing wrong with saying, "Baiting is not my idea of hunting." But let's don't get into a frenzy to see who can bad-mouth the loudest. There are no prizes or trophies for "Snarkiest Comment of the Day".

4INCHSMITH
July 15, 2009, 05:03 PM
I do bait but at the same time I don't, it's completly natural. I hunt in an old apple orchard on my Grandfather's tree farm.:D
However, did anyone see the picture of a bait pile with a sign posted next to it that read, "This is not a bait pile, this is a compost pile, anything caught eating my compost will be shot on sight!".

RichM
July 15, 2009, 11:54 PM
I think this is one of those topics where emotions get going.

We can bait here in FL but that doesn't mean you are going to have deer waiting in line to eat at your feeder. When I was on leases, I had feeders and food plots and I never saw a deer at a feeder, never mind shot one over the feeder. I did have a yearling doe feeding at my food plot tho'. All we ever got in our feeders were hogs and turkeys (not to shoot but they like corn).

If it is legal - go for it. Some guys like to hunt for meat and not for the "thrill of the hunt". If they can shorten their time in the woods, more power to them.

I sure wish I could shorten my time in the woods.

ZeroJunk
July 16, 2009, 06:18 AM
People will probably think I am FOS, but I could kill fifty deer a year if it was legal and I had any reaosn to want to. My neighbor is not even a hunter and he killed forty some last year and has already killed thirteen this year. I don't make food plots to kill deer over because the odds of a good buck poking his head out in it before dark is just about zero.
They are good for the deer and they keep them out of my neighbors soy beans who will most certainly shoot the crap out of them of he sees them.

700REM
July 16, 2009, 07:32 PM
and for that matter -we need to make sure ranchers dont put out any range cubes or mineral block or salt blocks.They attract deer too.

I mean really, we could beat this horse to death for a month.

Bottom line is this -its a bad case of allowed vs not allowed.Those state that allow it -everyone is fine with it.Those states that dont allow it-those people hate the idea.
What we as Hunters/Shooters should be more worried about is SOTOMAYOR..she is going to be the biggest challenge to the 2nd admen in a long time.This woman is racist and anti-gun.Supreme Court?? I dont think so.
Okay -I am off my soapbox now:D

Austinite
July 18, 2009, 02:28 AM
My main concern in this argument is HABITAT health and not the perceived sporting values of various types of hunting. Throughout most of Texas, the main problem we have is too many deer. The overabunce of deer limits forb diversity, prevents recruitment of important trees and shrubs, and lowers overall deer herd health (average weight of dressed does in/around Austin is under 70 pounds). Care to find a Spanish oak or cedar elm tree in the Edwards Plateau (two extremely important deciduous species for insects and songbirds as well as mast production for deer) under 30 years of age in this area that isn't protected by a cage, extreme slope, or some other way where deer can't prevent their growth? Good luck!

The last thing we need is more restrictions on how deer are harvested. Heck, we can't shoot enough given that we are allowed to bait and have a long season length.

We just opened up our bow season to crossbows. They should give us 20 tags instead of 5 and have the season run from Sept. 1 through the end of February. $0.02

Double Naught Spy
July 18, 2009, 09:19 AM
My main concern in this argument is HABITAT health and not the perceived sporting values of various types of hunting. Throughout most of Texas, the main problem we have is too many deer. The overabunce of deer limits forb diversity, prevents recruitment of important trees and shrubs, and lowers overall deer herd health (average weight of dressed does in/around Austin is under 70 pounds). Care to find a Spanish oak or cedar elm tree in the Edwards Plateau (two extremely important deciduous species for insects and songbirds as well as mast production for deer) under 30 years of age in this area that isn't protected by a cage, extreme slope, or some other way where deer can't prevent their growth? Good luck!



Last time I checked, feeding the deer helped to increase their numbers, not reduce them. A lot of hunters feed deer all year or at least feed them through much of the fall and winter so as to get the deer used to and continuing to come to the feeders.

And, it isn't just the deer that feed on young Spanish Oaks. They are readily overgrazed by cattle, domestic sheep, and domestic goat.

gunn308
July 18, 2009, 09:37 AM
The only thing we can bait in Me. are bear and coyote, no feeders for the wily whitetail, have a friend that got a warning about moving rotten apples from under his trees over to the forest edge if he left them under the tree he could shoot legally but not over the pile go figure only 25 yds difference. Hunting bear over bait is not my bag, I prefer hounds, but coyotes is a different proposition because I'm helping the deer herd.

Art Eatman
July 18, 2009, 11:09 AM
DNS, the "feeding" of deer on Texas deer leases is almost always just from a week or so before the start of the season until the end. Roughly 2.5 months. And, generally, the daily amount from a clock-feeder is merely enough to attract, not sustain.

The area that Austinite is talking about, there oughta be open season on does all year long and maybe even a bounty on them. For a year or six, anyway.

700REM
July 18, 2009, 09:06 PM
Good Grief-

That statement is no where near true or factual.

Those of us who put out supplemental feed do so year round 24-7.

The idea of someone putting corn on the ground two weeks prior to deer season opening is not a hunter at all.The same goes for the person shooting deer under a feeder.I am sure there are a few that practice this procedure and then want to call themselves "hunting" but by far its only a few.
Get your facts straight!!

One of my favorites is this one: we drove to our blind and while doing so we put corn out at the same time.Then we jumped in our blind and shot the first doe we saw,man that was a great hunt.:mad:

hogdogs
July 18, 2009, 09:44 PM
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b81/caughthog/CornSignTHUMB.jpg
I had my dad make me these signs to keep them pesky deer off my corn piles...
Actually i do not bait but only due to regulations. Silly thing too as walmart has a half isle set up during season of various flavored licks and liquid syrups that are legal as heck.
For me I feel that if you shoot a deer over ANY bait and you claim it as a "HUNT" than your teeth should fall out of your mouth as punishment for lying. I would gladly pour out a sack of corn so long as I could shoot a couple deer over it.
You see, I am not a hunter for sport. I would rather pop the cork on a jug of un-aged corn liquor at a hunting camp and hang out away from the wiminz a few days... I amnot so lucky nor wealthy so I just shoot deer for meat. I don't travel more than a few miles so as not to waste money. I rate my success on pounds of meat in the freezer per dollar spent to get it. I actually total my practice rounds as well as those fired at deer to determine final cost per pound. I really try to stay under .40 cents per pound:o Cheap azz I admit it!
Brent

treg
July 18, 2009, 10:01 PM
I believe an unintended benefit of the no baiting law in MI is that the deer didn't go nocturnal from eating on huge bait piles at night. Several of us in my area saw more deer during the day than we have for a long time. Consequently we had more fun. It was actually worthwhile to hunt during the day, even all day.

I have baited in the past but am now hoping the ban is permanent.

RichM
July 18, 2009, 10:27 PM
Brent, I'm with you on this one.

Whoever said that supplemental feeders do so 24/7 year round is being a good boy.

Most guys drop a couple hundred pounds of corn a week or two before the season and then hunt it. I hunted out of state once and was set up over a 200# corn pile...the squirrels were happy.

700REM
July 18, 2009, 10:42 PM
Exactly 24-7

We dont hunt around the feeders either.The feeders are there but not used as a means to attract deer and then kill them under a feeder.Sorry-thats just not hunting.Most people on here dont know what a feeder is for or how to use one.Just going by what I have read on here.

RichM
July 18, 2009, 10:49 PM
What I meant 700 - was that you are doing it as "the books say to".

Most guys don't have the time or money.

sc928porsche
July 19, 2009, 02:13 AM
I always thought it was deer hunting and not deer shooting. Baiting, hunting over food plots etc to me is not hunting. If you dont get a deer the whole season, then you dont. That is part of the sport. We no longer need to hunt to put meat on the table and havnt for many decades. I see no justification for baiting or food plots other than greed. Yes, I too would love to harvest and consume several deer a year but I am just as content to go out and enjoy a good days hunt without any succesful harvest. That gentlemen is what I call hunting. Thats my .02 worth.

hogdogs
July 19, 2009, 02:47 AM
That is part of the sport. We no longer need to hunt to put meat on the table and havnt for many decades.
For some of us hunting is not nor ever has been a sport... in fact i thought a sport meant all the players were voluntarily in the game and knew the rules:D:eek:

Secondly, Some of us really do have to shoot for food. Our total income falls about 50-100 per month short of minimal expenses and our weekly grocery bill for a family of four will severely short us if it exceeds $50 per week. So this is why I hope to keep all game meat under forty cents per pound. my hog meat is currently exceeding a buck fifty as I haven't had the yield per pound of dog food i need.
Brent

Double Naught Spy
July 19, 2009, 07:35 AM
I get a kick out of what folks consider to be hunting or not hunting and the viamence behind whether one is or is not a "hunter." What a lot of it boils down to is whether or not somebody approves or can do what you do. It is sort of like the folks that think anything beyond what they put on their own guns is excessive or unnecessary ninja material or who want to argue over what a "true sniper" is or is not.

If you are not on the ground stalking and running down your own prey and/or firing at prey from a position of concealment then you are probably engaged in wildlife sniping, whether you are baiting or not. I find this amusing because the not-true hunters often end up being true snipers in the historical sense of the word.

Most guys don't have the time or money.
Right. They usually live too far from their hunting property to maintain their feeders year 'round and/or only have a season-limited lease such that they can't put out feeders until just before the season starts. Some see feeding anytime other than just before and during the season as being cost-ineffective.

stargazer65
July 19, 2009, 07:50 AM
To be a true hunter you should live naked out in the woods for at least a year and only use a pointed stick to hunt.:p:D

Art Eatman
July 19, 2009, 10:22 AM
700REM, as a percentage of all ranches, year-around feeding is a very small amount. Sure, some ranchers do. Heck, I run a clock feeder year-around for my house-pet quail, and used to do that with corn back at deer camp. But out of 4,000 landowners in the Terlingua Ranch's 240,000 acres, I was about the only one.

oneounceload
July 19, 2009, 07:44 PM
The feeders only spin out for 2 or 3 seconds at a times twice a day. It doesn't provide enough corn to really feed them, just keep them interested in the area. By far, most of the corn is eaten after dark. In fact, we very seldom see a deer actually come to the feeder looking for a meal.

I would venture that if you set up a camera, you'd find coons and other critters eating most of that. Western hunting for mulies or pronghorns is a whole different story than Eastern hunting for whitetails.

Personally, I prefer "fair-chase" methods on the wide-open BLM lands of places like NV, but that's just me

700REM
July 19, 2009, 08:58 PM
Totally agree.Fair chase all the way.I cant stand high fence places that call themselves "hunting".

Double Naught Spy
July 20, 2009, 08:50 AM
Yeah, I watched coons and squirrels eat at one of mine last evening...as I waited unsuccessfully for my rogue hog to appear.

ZeroJunk
July 20, 2009, 10:03 AM
To be a true hunter you should live naked out in the woods for at least a year and only use a pointed stick to hunt


I love it.

Some guys making a point that they are more of a sportsman in how they are going to blow a hole in a deer from two or three hundred yards away than the other guy blowing a hole in a deer from two or three hundred yards away.

fisherman66
July 20, 2009, 10:17 AM
Zero,

I'm certain our cave dwelling ancestors would have eschewed using firearms had they been readily available. It's all these durn babies having babies that's messing everything up with their dadgumb technology. I miss the old days when all we had to hunt with was dirt and our fingernails. *sigh*

hogdogs
July 20, 2009, 10:23 AM
I am sure glad i don't need to invest 50+ hours of unending labor to come up with a bow and arrows tipped with hand pounded flint tips to feed my family!
Not to mention I need the guts of one critter just to make my bow string!
I can just her the griping of mrs.hogdogs now... "When are gonna take yer stupid toys out to get us some muskrats to eat? Why don't you just out run an armadillo and stomp it's fool head in like barney over there on the other side of the camp does?"
Brent

Art Eatman
July 20, 2009, 10:47 AM
"From the ridiculous to the sublime."

Enuf.