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GringoGrande
July 12, 2009, 06:02 PM
Hello everyone, new member, first post.

After a 3 month backlog wait, I finally got a M1A SOCOM 16. I took it out 3 weekends ago to a local outdoor range. G R E A T Shooter but I am having a problem with the ejected brass. The brass is being bent on ejection. It does not matter what load I use or brand (Mil-Surp and Civ). The brass comes out eclipsed shape with a score line down the opposite side. I sent Springfield 5 of the mixed cases and a listing of the loads.

The brass almost looks like how the H&K .308's come out, except not as deep of a score or krinkle.

I took it to a Garand/M1a Smith to check it out. He shot it, got the same results. After checking the rifle, NOTHING was found wrong. He used a few field and amory gages on it. All checked out fine.

Springfield sent back an e-mail saying they do not know what is wrong but to send it back in at MY cost. They will let me know if fixes are needed and costs. COSTS, this is a NEW in the box rifle! I spent close to $1750 for it and I am not a happy guy. :confused:

Before I send it back in, any clues what this may be? I thought maybe the op rod was out of spec or something, but I guess not.

My plans were to start reloading, but no way this brass can be saved with out hours of annealing and work on the cases.

It is not like I do not know how to use a M1A platform rifle. I used one in the Navy, used one on the police force. I know the rifle fairly well, but I am in no way an armorer.


The evil eyed Gringo

maestro pistolero
July 12, 2009, 06:07 PM
The chamber could be a little tight, causing the brass to resist extraction. I would push them to pay shipping. Have you tried more than one type of ammo?

LoneStarWings
July 12, 2009, 06:12 PM
I would shoot at least 200-300 rounds through it and see what happens. Sometimes these things work themselves out in new guns.

AK103K
July 12, 2009, 06:17 PM
Is the top edge of the op rod showing brass skipping off it? Mine used to do what your describing, although not all the time, but on occasion. You could see where the brass was hitting the op rod and chipping the paint off the stock just below it.

Springfields CS is a bunch of BS artists from my experiences with them. They tell you anythng to get you off the phone.

GringoGrande
July 12, 2009, 06:17 PM
I have 620 or so rounds through it. Many diff types of mil-surp and civ ammo no reloads, all fresh virgin rounds.

GringoGrande
July 12, 2009, 06:22 PM
AK yes that is basically what I got. Was a shove off the phone with a send the rifle in. a 6 week turn around and possible costs to me. I am not a happy guy on this. I am thinking of just selling it and cut my losses and go back to the regular homebuilt from mil-surp parts M1a I have

GringoGrande
July 12, 2009, 06:27 PM
I just checked the op rod with a lighted magnifyer, no brass dings and no chips in the finish yet. The chamber dimensions according to the smith I took it to said the chamber was on the loose side of accepted tolerances.

nbkky71
July 12, 2009, 06:28 PM
GringoGrande: do you mean the case mouth is being bent upon extraction? If so, it's possible that the brass is striking the op-rod hump upon ejection. There should be brass smears there as AK103K mentioned. Any optics mounted on the rifle? If you have a receiver-mount the brass could be striking that too.

The M1A/M14 is known for it's powerful extraction and ejection cycle.

GringoGrande
July 12, 2009, 06:53 PM
nbkky, no, the case rear of the shoulder has a score line and a crease. The neck does have a bend in condition as well though, but I believe from the chamber during the brass mangle process.

There is no damage, burrs or machine marks at the chamber area that we can see to cause this. Just checked the entire op rod under a mag-lite and can find no brass rubs. There is a brass rub on the right side of the chamber but nothing is there to cause this crease.

No scope at the chamber area, it is mounted forward. No brass rubs or dings on the scope or mount, also shot without the scope and mount and the same case damage.

When I take an empty case to place in the chamber, it will not go due to being banana shaped kind of and the crease-score mark. The case curve is slight, but you can see it with the naked eye.

People at the range swear I was shooting an HK91 without the buffer. But I am honest when I say they all came from my SOCOM. I have 4 cloth shot sacks of spent brass like it. I will take a picture(s) tomorrow and show it to you. Now I just have to figure out how to add a picture(s) here.

Gringo

azredhawk44
July 12, 2009, 07:01 PM
While at the range, take a magazine and load a single round into it.

Load the rifle with the magazine.

Prior to shooting, eject the magazine so you have no mag in the rifle but the chamber is hot.

Fire the rifle.

Inspect the ejected case. Is the crease still there? If not, your creased cases are coming from the rounds below the bolt during the extraction of the hot brass.

If it's still there... it could be feed stroke damage while the cartridge is coming up into the chamber via the dual staggered feed ramps in the barrel (although the firing pressure "should" iron those out immediately when the cartridge goes off).

Another question: Does it only happen every other round, or to absolutely every round? Only the first round in a magazine? All but the first round? Does it happen to the last round in the magazine?

What about multiple magazines? Do you have more than 1 mag?

I guess my point I'm trying to make is I suspect your feed and ejection system, and in particular your magazine height in relation to the bolt.

And give us some pictures of the damaged brass!:D

GringoGrande
July 12, 2009, 07:10 PM
I never checked the mags but I believe the smith did. That is a very good call though and I will take it out tomorrow and check that. Yes I have more mags (10) and (4) - 5 round mags, both mil-surp and Civ mags. I never shot without a mag, very good call. It does however happen with all the mags in as I preload them before the range and cycle through them as I shoot.

It happens each and every round. I have shot one round from the mag, but not with the mag out. I have also hand cycled rounds through and NO damage, only happens during shooting.

I figured it was happening on extract - eject cycle, never thought of feed or the mag issue.

I will try that tomorrow and also take pictures of the brass.

Thanks - Gringo

azredhawk44
July 12, 2009, 07:28 PM
One last thing, Gringo:

Probably the single biggest complaint anyone can make about Springer Inc. M1A rifles are the extractors coming with the stuff over the last few years.

Not sure where they're getting them, but they are no longer USGI surplus and I've seen two break at the range.

While yours may not be broken, it could be stressed in an odd direction causing misaligned extraction.

Before spending the money to send it to SAI and get a bill for repairs, try replacing the extractor either on your own or have your gunsmith do it. It's a user-serviceable part as long as you dig up the correct information on how to do it. Wouldn't hurt to order a couple spare firing pins, extractors and spring sets for the bolt anyways. There is a way to disassemble the bolt using a .30-06 case in the chamber of the M1A (making the bolt stick out away from the closed position but still trapping the ejector in place - that spring is really strong!), but it's best to just use the proper tool for the job... you can do it with the M10 combination tool (it's a $10 combo tool that is pretty handy to have around for your M1A).

If you have a "real" M14 buttplate instead of the Springer rubberized buttplate you can get the buttstock cleaning kit and shove it back there... the M10 tool comes with the cleaning kit. Very handy.

csmsss
July 12, 2009, 07:33 PM
Before spending the money to send it to SAI and get a bill for repairsAre you suggesting that Springfield would actually charge him to repair a defective rifle or magazine(s) on a product that is only a few months old? If that's true, then that would certainly speak very poorly of Springfield's service policies.

azredhawk44
July 12, 2009, 07:40 PM
Are you suggesting that Springfield would actually charge him to repair a defective rifle or magazine(s) on a product that is only a few months old?

Srsly, why derail the thread with this?

OP posted that Springfield wants him to pay shipping to get the rifle to them, and may in fact charge him for any work. No word on return shipping costs. That's $70 or so just for rifle shipping.

In contrast, buying an M10 and spare parts for the bolt will cost him $40 from Brownells... and a copy of Walt Kuleck's M14 book over at Fulton Armory will set him back another $20 or so, and he'll be MOUNTAINS of information ahead on how to live with his rifle.

Considering the fact that his rifle "works" and it's just beating up brass, I expect springfield to bill him for work done and return shipping as well... and they still may not fix anything. After all, Springfield doesn't want anyone running reloads in their M1A rifles. What does it matter what the brass looks like as long as it comes out okay?

csmsss
July 12, 2009, 07:53 PM
Srsly, why derail the thread with this?

OP posted that Springfield wants him to pay shipping to get the rifle to them, and may in fact charge him for any work. No word on return shipping costs. That's $70 or so just for rifle shipping.

In contrast, buying an M10 and spare parts for the bolt will cost him $40 from Brownells... and a copy of Walt Kuleck's M14 book over at Fulton Armory will set him back another $20 or so, and he'll be MOUNTAINS of information ahead on how to live with his rifle.

Considering the fact that his rifle "works" and it's just beating up brass, I expect springfield to bill him for work done and return shipping as well... and they still may not fix anything. After all, Springfield doesn't want anyone running reloads in their M1A rifles. What does it matter what the brass looks like as long as it comes out okay?I don't think I derailed the thread. If you think that a new rifle that dents/dings ejected brass sufficiently that it cannot be reloaded isn't defective and in need of factory warranty (free of charge) repair, I don't know what to say. If that's Springfield's policy, then I have plenty to say and I'm not derailing anything. I don't find such an answer from the manufacturer to be satisfactory in the least; and certainly not on such an expensive rifle. Ejected brass need not be pristine, but it should certainly be reloadable without requiring major effort.

Oh, and no one should have to buy spare parts and manuals and books and have to perform DIY repairs on a brand new rifle. Just my opinion, but I suspect it's one that many others share. Oh, and by the way, the OP explicitly discusses how unhappy he is with Springfield's policy and their responses to his inquiry. So, in the politest manner I can muster, get bent.

Wildalaska
July 12, 2009, 08:45 PM
If you think that a new rifle that dents/dings ejected brass sufficiently that it cannot be reloaded isn't defective and in need of factory warranty (free of charge) repair, I don't know what to say.

Then every HK91 or G3 ever made is defective :)

WildsemiautosbeatbrassAlaska TM

AK103K
July 12, 2009, 08:59 PM
HK addressed the issue, and the port buffer solved it. While I never got the number of loadings from their brass that I did from my M1A's, I still had no problem reloading recovered brass from my 91's.

The issue at hand is not the norm for these type rifles. I've had a number of them, and only the last, and most recent one ever did anything to the brass. Springfield should cover it under their warranty at no cost.

The way everyone raves about their CS department on the internet, you'd think they'd make a house call.

azredhawk44
July 12, 2009, 09:00 PM
M14's do not extract brass with the loving tenderness of a benchrest boltgun shooter with a $100 worth of new Lapua brass.

My M14 is a custom rig that has been tuned by one of the better gentlemen in the industry and with the best components available. It visibly dents the brass on virgin cases in no less than 3 places. Frankly, I'm not quite certain what is responsible for each of the 3 nicks, and I don't care. I'm gonna be lucky to get 5 firings out of my brass at the most... probably only 3 really.

Another tactic for the OP to identify your nicks/marks:

When you single-load the cartridge I described above, take a black sharpie marker and put a line down the top of the case as a reference point. Once the case extracts, you'll never find "up" again, and you won't be able to tell what orientation the case was in when it was marked by a given line.

Post a picture of the black-line marked case from various angles around it.

AK103K
July 12, 2009, 09:05 PM
I'm gonna be lucky to get 5 firings out of my brass at the most... probably only 3 really.
I usually get 8-10, and sometimes even more out of mine (I do use commercial brass though), depending on where I'm shooting. Concrete is harder on the brass than the rifle, and most of my problems are due to concrete benches and slabs tearing up the case mouths.

GringoGrande
July 12, 2009, 09:17 PM
NP all, I have spares and the M10 and know how very well actually. One of the first things I did was take the bolt assy out to check for extr defects, none that I could see. I did hear at perry about the extractor problems thogh and you are right, they are not mil-spec anymore.

No, HK's were designed to destroy the brass, their thinking is, make the brass only good for scrap metal and not for the enemy to reload. The buffers do not work well either.

The Garand, M1A and dirivetives were not designed to destroy brass and I reload for my Garand all the time. So yes, something is wrong, not sure what yet, but the Mag sitting high or the bolt sitting low is a very good call to check out.

I did talk to the CS manager at SA and they said all the costs are up to me until they decide who or what is at fault. If it is their fault, they will fix it no charge, but S&H both ways is on my dime. All firearm companys are like that. They said if they determine it is my fault, any repairs will be esitmated and I will need to approve prior to repair. I have close to $1750 into it, 620 rounds fired, smith time and lots of head scratching by a few spring-shooters. I feel I need to at least give all parties involved a chance to see it made right.

The Gringo

GringoGrande
July 12, 2009, 09:25 PM
About the same time you posted the timing mark trick remark on the brass, I was thinking the same thing.

You do realize this does give me an excuse to go to the range again, the wifey will buy that:D I am going tomorrow and play. Anyone near Sandusky Ohio want to go play on a Monday when nobody will be at the range ? :cool:

The benches and ground at our club are all rubberized, feels like you are walking on the moon kind of, but is easy to clean and easy on the brass. The cases do not bounce much due to the kind of rubber (no I do not have any idea what) but they are panels that puzzle lock so pieces can be replaced.

The Gringo sittin Grande

lipadj46
July 12, 2009, 10:13 PM
Shipping a rifle UPS is not expensive but I am surprised SAI is not covering shipping these days. I would push them on that as it does not sound right. They definitely used to cover shipping specially if they determine the rifle is defective.

The SOCOMs have a different gas system than the regular M1A's and it sounds like yours is over gassed. You may want to try an adjustable gas plug first.

lipadj46
July 12, 2009, 10:15 PM
double tap

GringoGrande
July 12, 2009, 10:32 PM
Lipad, please explain what you are calling "double tap," I may know it as another term.

S&H to SA is $22, SA charges $35 return. The SA CS manager strictly said, they do not reimburse S&H, but if found to be a defective on their cause rifle. The parts and labor are covered free of charge. If it is found to be my fault, repairs are on my dime, either way, I pay S&H to and from. Their smith department charges $55 an hour.

lipadj46
July 12, 2009, 10:39 PM
The system doubled my post and I deleted the second one :cool:

GringoGrande
July 12, 2009, 10:42 PM
hahahaha Ok, where I am from a "double tap" is two to the head and two to the heart ;-)

azredhawk44
July 12, 2009, 10:46 PM
Lipad, please explain what you are calling "double tap," I may know it as another term.

He accidentally posted the same post twice.

S&H to SA is $22,

Is that overnight? Firearms have to go FedEx/UPS overnight.

The gas observation is a good one, too. The SOCOM has a non-standard gas system compared to the 18" scouts or the full size rifles from SAI and other manufacturers. An adjustable gas plug, while not an ideal permanent solution, would at least be a useful diagnostic tool to narrow down if the gas pressure is indeed the culprit.

My money's on extractor or ejector though. Probably extractor since it controls the angle of ejection by how it grabs the case extraction groove.

Shipping a rifle UPS is not expensive but I am surprised SAI is not covering shipping these days. I would push them on that as it does not sound right. They definitely used to cover shipping specially if they determine the rifle is defective.

I will say that Sig paid for my shipping of a lemon 1911 back to them, three times.

Never sent anything to SAI despite having owned an M1A Scout and an XD9. Both ran well with no lemon-work needed.

I would expect SAI to pay shipping, but if they said they won't then it makes more sense to me to play with the simple fixes on my own first before sending the weapon away for weeks.

lipadj46
July 12, 2009, 10:49 PM
Well yes that too. It's a common term in an internet forum like this to say double tap when you double post.

SAI used to pay shipping, I'm not sure what is up.

My SAI Loaded from 8/2008 has what appeared to be a USGI extractor so that may not be the case. I'm not sure if that was a stop gap measure while they tried to sort out their commercial extractors. You should be able to tell easily if your extractor is USGI or a good copy pretty easily.

GringoGrande
July 12, 2009, 11:54 PM
I think what is up with SA is the economy, people just do not have $2000 to lay out for a firearm(s) anymore. They got hurt so bad by the M6 fiasco they are still trying to recover from that. The XD brought them back a little bit.

I think before I change any parts ie the gas psiton or cap, nullyfying the warranty, I will try the timing mark and no mag shooting. I checked the bolt and the extractor looked good and good spring tension and nice clear extractor edges. I also looked at the back end of the brass under a magnifyer, the extractor marks look just like the garand marks.

If it is beyond that, I will have SA look at it. If I get a report back from them on parts I can replace and fix/fit myself, I will do that. If it is more extensive I will have SA do it. At $1750 for the rifle, I would rather them mess it up than me.

I think the thing I am most unhappy about is I was going to buy one of these for my son over in Afghan as their unit is months away from getting any M1A's of any kind. They have to call for a Marine unit 40 minutes away by air to get anything more then a 5.56 in the individuals hands. I do not want him to get anything that will mess up, even if it is only the brass. Those mountains over there are just not M4 friendly. He already has my Colt .45 he is using there, it is just better than that beretta he has. I also supplied him way better 2nd Chance Armor than what they have avail. I want what ever he gets to work and work well.

I guess I just do not like buying stuff for close to $2000 in a day and age of SPC, ISO9000 and all that jazz and still having a firearm that does not work the way it should. Then have CS say, well it may cost me. 3 week old rifle, 620 rounds. There is NO way I would let my kid go to war with something like that.

The Sleepy Gringo

Wildalaska
July 13, 2009, 12:46 AM
I think the thing I am most unhappy about is I was going to buy one of these for my son over in Afghan as their unit is months away from getting any M1A's of any kind. They have to call for a Marine unit 40 minutes away by air to get anything more then a 5.56 in the individuals hands. I do not want him to get anything that will mess up, even if it is only the brass. Those mountains over there are just not M4 friendly. He already has my Colt .45 he is using there, it is just better than that beretta he has.

Really. And how ever do you intend to get that rifle over to Afghanistan...and you are telling us that your son has a personally owned firearm over there.? really?

WildandidoubttheycareaboutthebrassaftertheyshootoverthereAlaska TM

GringoGrande
July 13, 2009, 04:39 AM
Yes, 110% Commander of his unit approved. How they get there is none of anyones biz. Personal firearms in war have happened as far back as wars have been fought. So please lets not make that the point of this thread and posts. When I was in the Navy I had my own Chiefs Special with me.

I ask, why is it people pick out the littlest things of a post and pick it apart and get way off subject? I added it to the thread to help show why I am very unhappy with this SA firearm!

Ok I am asking that the post get back onto subject of SA SOCOM/M1A/Garand Brass distortions and solutions. I am not the moderator so I really have no control on this aspect, but I am at least asking. :rolleyes:

So far:

Mag Height: will check at the range today
Bolt Height: will check at the range today
Op Rod dings: checked and can find no brass rubs on the op rod
Tight chamber :was checked with gages by the smith, all seems ok
Extractor / ejector: eyeball checked, may need measured
Gas tube / piston: I will wait to see what SA says is needed
Placing timing mark on the hand fed shell: will perform this today at the range.

Very good possible solutions all :)

The Happy Gringo (I get to go to the range today and do real sluthing)

nbkky71
July 13, 2009, 08:04 AM
OK GringoGrande... I assume you're talking about creases like this pic, which I found over on snipercentral:

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u84/bragil/P1010823.jpg

If that's the case, then it's definitely an ejection problem. The brass is being spun aggressively after extraction and is hitting something (receiver? op rod?). As mentioned, some folks have reported issues with the current SA, Inc extractors so a USGI replacement may not be a bad idea.

Also, check the ejector and ejector spring as well, but you'll need to disassemble the bolt to examine them. Make sure there's no gunk built up and the spring is not damaged. Worst case, you can always try trimming off a coil or two on the ejector spring. HP shooters have been doing that for years to 'tune' the ejection pattern on their M1A's.

Also, if you absolutely have to have SA, Inc look it, there may be an alternative to shipping. I see you're in Sandusky, so just drive over to Camp Perry next month (Port Clinton, OH) and SA, Inc. will have a retail booth on vendor's row during the National Matches. They also usually bring an armorer or two with them and will take a look for free.

lipadj46
July 13, 2009, 08:33 AM
The M1/M14 is designed to eject the shell and hit the op rod hump in order to deflect the shell in the proper direction. Small dents in the lower neck area are to be expected large ones can be a few things but the most common would be too much gas forcing everything to move much faster and exacerbating the crease. Like others have said you can get a new extractor and adjust your ejector.

freakshow10mm
July 13, 2009, 08:40 AM
Thanks for posting that information. If that is Springfield's policy, then I'll look to somewhere else to buy one. They should cover shipping both ways. I do on guns I build.

freakshow10mm
July 13, 2009, 08:44 AM
Is that overnight? Firearms have to go FedEx/UPS overnight.

Handguns go overnight. Long guns go ground or US mail.

azredhawk44
July 13, 2009, 08:45 AM
nbkky:

Two dings, nearly on the same place, and very deep. Anyone figure out how that was happening?

If I had to spitball a guess I'd say the cartridges in the above pic were coming straight back and hitting the clip feed guide hard before getting any extractor lateral tension, then bouncing sideways and getting whacked by the op-rod on their way out.

GringoGrande
July 13, 2009, 08:47 AM
On my way out the door to the range. The cases you show are close, but no dents, just along the case score and crease length wise, no circumference dents. Also, the entire case is slightly banana shaped, you can see it with your eye or lay the spent shell on a flat surface and roll to show the height of the middle of the case off the surface. Approximately .160 thousandths from the surface to the highest point of the case raduis using a round wire gage. It is almost like the case was pulled to one side or stretched and then the oposite 180 degrees there is the score down the length of the case. Some of the cases have a folded in 3/16" area of the lip, more of a push than a striking dent, like a fold over of sorts. the fold over is on the outside banana curve of the shell. Like the shell is being extracted out on one side faster then the other and coming out at a steep angle.

Off to the range I go. Range report later with pictures and if I figure it out a video.

Excellent call on the Perry Shoot and Springfield area booth. I go every year. My smith is actually one of the camp smiths at Perry.

azredhawk44
July 13, 2009, 08:53 AM
Yuck, evil description. Sounds like it is extracting out of alignment with the barrel. Which would make the barrel out of alignment with the receiver... or at least with the direction of the bolt's operation.

Get us pics of the marked case! And have fun at the range!

nbkky71
July 13, 2009, 09:23 AM
+1 to the evil description. That's WEIRD. The only other thing that I could think of would be the case striking the charger guide to cause a lengthwise crease.

You could also try turning off the gas spindle, firing a round and manually ejecting it to see if you can observe anything.

EDIT - Just re-read azredhawk44's post and he suggested the same clip guide impact. I'd still try replacing the extractor and tuning the ejection pattern

freakshow10mm
July 13, 2009, 09:37 AM
Almost seems as if the extraction is happening faster than the bolt moving rearward to clear. The mouth of the case is still in the chamber a bit as the head of the case is trying to clear the action and is being bent under force.

Would be cool to get a high speed camera to see what's happening upon extraction. Happening too fast to get an accurate idea.

johnwilliamson062
July 13, 2009, 10:20 AM
Springfield sent back an e-mail saying they do not know what is wrong but to send it back in at MY cost. They will let me know if fixes are needed and costs. COSTS, this is a NEW in the box rifle! I spent close to $1750 for it and I am not a happy guy.
I wouldn't be happy either.

I do see the point that the rifle is not designed to be getle on the brass, just to make sure it gets out.

lipadj46
July 13, 2009, 03:10 PM
The cases you show are close, but no dents, just along the case score and crease length wise, no circumference dents. Also, the entire case is slightly banana shaped, you can see it with your eye or lay the spent shell on a flat surface and roll to show the height of the middle of the case off the surface. It is almost like the case was pulled to one side or stretched and then the oposite 180 degrees there is the score down the length of the case.

I'm trying to imagine what would cause this, I'm at a loss. Need pics

Some of the cases have a folded in 3/16" area of the lip, more of a push than a striking dent, like a fold over of sorts.


That is normal and usually happens from hitting the op rod hump.

Off to the range I go. Range report later with pictures and if I figure it out a video.

Yes definitely that would be good.

I was kind of wondering what the affect of the panic volume would be on SAI's QC (already has a shaky reputation). This is not a good sign.

The fact that they refuse to cover shipping is unacceptable. I would read the CS manager the riot act and ask to talk to his boss and keep going up the food chain. Explain to them how you are an active member of many gun forums with large M1A owner populations and we are all watching to see the results of this. From your description it sounds like a definite problem with the rifle.

GringoGrande
July 20, 2009, 08:44 AM
Thank you to all for your input. Turns out, the mag is set too deep into the well. While at the range, a guy from Springfield was at the Gun / Pro shop there. He looked at the brass, looked at the rifle. He asked to take it with him and gave me a Springfield receipt for it. I just received my NEW SOCOM and had it out shooting on Sunday and works perfectly. I ran 225 rounds though it and my confidance has now been restored in Springfield and the SOCOM. The brass is now reloadable. No word or explaination from Springfield on the who, what, when, where and why. Just a note they are replacing it and a replacement was sent to the range gun shop. The replacement came with 5 new magazines and a couple cool accessories.

One word here though, I will be very honest.... I was more than a little nicked off at Wild Alaskans insinuations my son or unit is doing something wrong in using personal firearms or gear. It is and has been done throughout his unit with full permissions of the upper brass.

As far as the obfuscation on threads, I have noticed many seem to wander away from the subject and concentrait on details of the obvious such as spelling, a word, a mis-statement or phrase even when all is very much understood without the distraction of the human and sometimes inhumane spell or phrase checkers.

When it comes to my son and his safety in war, I damn well will do everything in my power to get him the equipment he needs to bring him safely back to his mother and I. If someone has a problem with that, they can blow it out their arse and write their congressman as I honestly do not care. With the help of his unit, god and his mother and I, he will come back to us in one piece. He is a good and honorable soldier and even the suggestion of dishonor makes me want to throttle someone.

Ok I am off my soap box.

Thanks all

Gringo

lipadj46
July 20, 2009, 08:56 AM
One word here though, I will be very honest.... I was more than a little nicked off at Wild Alaskans insinuations my son or unit is doing something wrong in using personal firearms or gear. It is and has been done throughout his unit with full permissions of the upper brass.

Don't sweat the pettiness that goes on here. For whatever reason this forum tends to be a little worse that it's sister site (THR even though it is mostly the same people). Glad you got taken care of too bad a bad CS person tried to cock block you. You should call and speak to a manager about the person's behavior (if you have that kind of time on your hands :D).

Wildalaska
July 20, 2009, 10:23 AM
One word here though, I will be very honest.... I was more than a little nicked off at Wild Alaskans insinuations my son or unit is doing something wrong in using personal firearms or gear. It is and has been done throughout his unit with full permissions of the upper brass.

Im a little ****** off that you give us some cock and bull story about personal firearms being allowed to be used in the Army and insinuate that you are going to break the law to get a gun over there.

And you can stand on your soapbox all you want.....I have three close personal friends, one of whom is one of our employees and the other two our married to our employees over there right now, all of whom I would be very pleased to have their own weapons with them..

WildiwontcommentontheotherchildishnessAlaska TM

GringoGrande
July 20, 2009, 01:48 PM
Again, thank you to all that inputed positive information to this post. I do agree with the pettiness statement and even more so now.

Cock and Bull story.... no wonder you are in Alaska. I will make personal sure that he and his unit's members and family know you are calling myself and all of them a liar.

I can see by how many posts you have, you seem to have an aweful lot of opinion, so be it, opinions are like a*holes, everyone has got one.

You need to check your MDOJ/PDJ/GCAJ laws and info before you even think to speak or write of this subject again. As long as the brass approves, the personal firearms and gear can be taken into and out of a war zone via military transport. There are only two rules, that any ammo used must abide by the G-convention and that the weapons or gear be apprived by the unit commander. END of Story.

Now if your friends or who ever are in crap units where the brass is worried about their ass and not their people, that is their problem, not mine or my son's or his unit..

The facts are it is done, has been done and will be done. This is especially true in SF/Spec Op units. Facts are you do not know your crap from shinola on this subject. FACTS are, I and most of the family of unit members have the unit commanders letter of approval that was also signed by the Division Commander to send the unit members gear and weapons. We only have to send a heads up on what is coming to the commander.

Also, tell the nice guys and gals from Blackwater, Pegasas and Retaunt that personal firearms are not allowed, after they stop laughing, they would seriously question your ability to even wake and roll out of bed w/o a heavy dose of anti inflamants for the brain.

I suggest your next post be in a PM and stop making a public arse of yourself.

Personally, I am done with you and this thread post, so ramble all you want about the stuff you really do not know about and from the looks of your very many posts, that does seem to cover an aweful lot.

Regards
Steve Allerton (The Gringo Grande)
USN - TM/E8 Retired
Sandusky, OH PD Retired

Wildalaska
July 20, 2009, 06:05 PM
http://www.tac.usace.army.mil/deploymentcenter/tac_docs/GO-1B%20Policy.pdf

WildandwiththatitstimetomoveonAlaska ™

MLeake
July 20, 2009, 06:43 PM
... I quote this from the General Order you posted.

"9. WAIVER AUTHORITY: Authority to waive or modify the prohibitions of Paragraph 2 of this General Order is hereby delegated to the Deputy Commander, USCENTCOM, and to the Chief of Staff, USCENTCOM. No further delegation is authorized."

So, this implies the possibility of waivers. Odds are, there are other regulations put out by the Commander, Deputy Commander, or Chief of Staff, USCENTCOM that define existing waivers, or the processes for requesting waivers.

From what SOF friends tell me, there are in fact ways of getting such waivers for personal firearms, but these are generally only for pretty elite units. If GringoGrande's son is in a Force Recon or MARSOC unit, he very well might have such a waiver.

Note: WA, you keep saying "Army." You may mean that generically. Please bear in mind that GG's said his son is a Marine. The CENTCOM theater guidance applies either way, but a lot of Marines take umbrage if told they are in the Army.

minijeff
July 20, 2009, 08:53 PM
If I am following the timeline of events correctly - in less than one week, you had your rifle hand carried back to SA (with no shipping charge), and a new replacement rifle, along with 5 free mags, back in your hands?

Wow.

I don't recall reading your post where you said that you stand corrected about Springfield Armory customer service.

GringoGrande
July 20, 2009, 11:11 PM
Hi MiniJeff:

No, not MY rifle. The Springfield rep called Springfield from the Pro Shop that Monday morn to have a NIB Spfld SOCOM 16 sent to me. The pro shop had it weds, I got it on Sat when I went to the pro shop and I was shooting it on Sunday. The outside box looks as though it was sent over-night from Springfield to the Pro Shop. They (Spfld) are keeping my origional rifle. I had a lil bit of basic paperwork to fill out and that was it.

The new rifle works perfect, no malfunctions what so ever. The brass is also reloadable.

No, the Springfield CS is still bad on the phone, this was a regional rep, for the regional rep....Kudos.---------- For Spfld CS (-1) for short answers and not really knowing what was at stake.

NO, My son is in the Army.... and if that knucklehead up North thinks for one second I am going to give exact unit and location, he is a bigger a*hole than I first thought. The simple basic facts are it is done with permissions, end of story. I did say however that the closest Marine unit with something bigger than a 5.56mm is 40 minutes by air away and is why the fams get their kids and fam members the stuff they need.

bobn
July 21, 2009, 06:37 AM
i love a good sea story. emfn netherland. usn 72 to 76

MLeake
July 21, 2009, 07:27 AM
You were correct about Army, I misread what he said about Marine units.

raven11
July 23, 2009, 09:57 PM
i've did a tour in Bagram AFB and i don't recall anyone having a personally owned M1A? and i was there for quite awhile

bufordtjustice
July 24, 2009, 09:18 AM
This thread is too good to die. I say we ask the op to kindly provide a photo of his son in country with said hogleg. Of course faces, unit markings, etc. can be obscured for OPSEC. Then, we can get to the bottom of this.

I personally am torn. I know for a fact that aircrew in the first gulf war were allowed to carry personally owned weapons due to a shortage of sidearms. However; I did a tour in Iraq and NEVER saw one individually owned weapon and I spent a fair amount of time traveling all over, doing stuff with SF, etc.

Anything is possible.

buzz_knox
July 24, 2009, 10:31 AM
We've got more than a few retired and active mil personnel on this site. I'm sure they will be along to give their opinions on personally owned weapons and the existence, or lack thereof, from the universal prohibition against them.

BADSBSNF81
July 26, 2009, 02:01 AM
POW's (personally owned weapons) out in the field in "peacetime" or in times of conflict in a HDP/HFP/CZ happen. It happens with or without offical approval. Consequences will depend on the situation and your chain of command. For myself, as a young LT in the FRG, my gentle butt chewing was along the lines of "next time your *** is grass, so, either ask or don't get caught". ;) It was good advice for the next 25 or so years I wore the uniform. I saw more than a few POW's. The vast majority were handguns although I personally know of one rifle and one shotgun. Unless you checked the sn, the long guns looked like issue.

GringoGrande
July 26, 2009, 02:22 AM
Buford: Me posting a pic of my kid in a war zone on the internet..... NOT going to happen. The uniform alone would give away the who, what, when, where....face or no face. Whoever is just gonna have to live with the fact my son and others over there have some persoally owned weapons.:eek:

I am satisfied that he will do well and that if my .45 gives him comfort, I am ok with that,. If the SOCOM I am going to send will give him and his unit comfort, I am also ok with that. :)

Since most not all of the posts here are for Iraq, I honestly cannot speak for that as my son is in Afghanistan somewhere. Almost all in his unit have "POW" of some kind as well as State Side accessories for the rails of the M4's they have. They also have Second Chance vests we bought on a group rate.

You ask almost any soldier, regardless of rank in their or simlar unit if the M4 and the Beretta are enough power for the style and range they shoot at there in Afghanistan, most will tell you NO. It is for that reason we parents and fam members send our boys and girls the stuff they want and need with the powers that be permissions. :D

Gringo

MEATSAW
July 26, 2009, 05:18 AM
I'll throw in my $.02:

I was in Afghanistan Feb-Sept in 2002. I don't recall ever seeing anyone with a personal firearm while I was there. I did, however, hear about it. Generally speaking we all know you just don't do it, and it fact it wasn't really required. We used M16s with ACOGs for the majority of our mountain operations (M4s were being used in units that were doing urban ops) and they served us well. If long shots were required for any missions that's what the snipers were there for, not us. I never recall me or any one I was with wishing we could have personal (or even "better") rifles. In fact I strongly believe that we were pretty well taken care of in that regard. The M9 on the other hand was frequently bad-mouthed. I don't know anyone whom I worked with while I was in that said anything nice about it and the FMJ 9mm that we shot. I am sure we all wished we could bring along a better sidearm, BUT I never saw it save for one husky SEAL who carried a 1911 but no one in my unit ever talked to him about it...no reason to.

I know much has changed since 2002 in Afghanistan, and I have no doubt that there are personal weapons in theater. I don't know how you could get away with carrying a personal M1A (even if one person gets it, then everyone else is gonna be bitchin' and moaning and then it becomes a big mess) but I guess it not impossible...a sidearm would be a whole lot easier to waiver.

Gringo, I hope I haven't said anything inflammatory to you or in regards to your son. I wish the best for your family.

GringoGrande
July 26, 2009, 05:46 AM
Meatsaw: Not at all Bro... you gave your facts and your experience and I salute you for your service as I do all military and vets.

One of the guys in his unit has a scoped .308 700BDL, two have their own shotguns, many have their own 9mm or 45 (mostly varied 1911's and USP). The only thing their Col said or laid a law on was that it or any weapon given be 12ga, .308, 9mm or ,45. No oddball ammo and all ammo must comply with the G-Con in that it be ball ammo. The M4's they have are really really worn and getting parts are like asking for ice water in hell. We send parts, accessories and stuff to them. Most of their M9's stay at the bunks.

Their unit does not have a so called "Sniper," per se. A reg M1A would be way too long for their ops. The SOCOM is perfect for what they need. The Marine unit 40 minutes away from them have M14's avail to them as well as some SAW's and some M2 .50, but my sons unit is LITE but truly in need of some heavier ords. The Col has requests in, but by the time they get filled, the war will be over. I want my son and his unit protected asap, not months from now.

Trust me, the unit is NOT a loose cannon, just has a few people that truly care, so they gave permissions of personal weapons with a few guide rules.

Regards, Gringo

bufordtjustice
July 26, 2009, 07:48 AM
So let me see if if I understand this. You won't post a photo of your son with his 1911 even with faces/names etc. blacked out because you say even that will give his unit away. This would seem to indicate that he was in some sort of specialized unit. Nevermind that countless others have done the same on the internet as well as countless books on the war. Many of these photo's have been vetted and approved by DOD before release to the public.

However; you will describe the weapons compliment and extremely limited arsenal of that same American unit in combat as well as how far away their nearest support is? Or how about the fact you discuss your sons unit at all instead of just posting questions/comments about a Socom you are having problems with? Really?

Also, this ultra-secret unit can't get equipment fixed so you routinely have to send them spare parts and weapons and stuff?

Furthermore, you are going to send an M1A Socom to this unit? Not to turn this into a Socom bashing thread but I owned one and after it repeatedly jammed I sold it. I certainly wouldn't choose one of them especially for CQB (of which I know a thing or two). Why not an LRB, Fulton Armory, or SEI or some such?

I am sure you appreciate the predicament we are in here. Many of us are veterans of this most current war. We don't want to call someone a liar or even insinuate it at the same time don't want to have our collective chains jerked. I have read what you have written with an open mind but at this point I do not believe you. Don't feel like you have to respond to me, I am going to exercise my freedom of choice and move to a new thread.

Palmetto-Pride
July 26, 2009, 09:52 AM
GringoGrande- If all you say is true, please thank your son and his unit for my freedom, and I also think it is a dame shame that parents have to send there kids anything to get the job done. The US military should provide absolutely every tool possible to our soldiers to kill the enemy and get home safety. As much money as this country spends on BS we can't even give our soldiers everything they need sickens me. God Bless all our troops.

mellow_c
July 26, 2009, 10:43 AM
I'm happy everything has worked out in your favor... Like you said, who wants to spend over $1750 on a new rifle which has problems of any sort. Thats pretty great that you got a new one with 5 magazines and a few accessories.

Good shooting to you, and best of luck to your son... there is nothing like good gear when you really need it, I'd take any advantage I could get, and I'm sure it would keep you feeling a little more safe... I'm sure he already has the training and common sense covered.
:)

boy412
July 26, 2009, 01:15 PM
Glad to hear that Springfield eventually "treated you right" and exchanged the rifle. Ridiculous that it had to escalate like that...but poor "tier 1" customer service is unfortunately the norm these days.

Not sure how this thread turned into an argument about posting pictures of family members in war zones.

:confused:

Cheers...

GringoGrande
July 26, 2009, 07:09 PM
LOL me either, W.A. decided to start a crap storm and it derailed the posts and degraded the thread. I noticed he does this on more than a few threads for some odd reason. I have asked the Mod to close this thread due to the derail and degradation.

Yes, the tier 1 was very poor, the Rep being at the range pro-shop was a fluke, but I think he was there in hopes to get the pro shop to carry more M1A and Garands in prep for Camp Perry Shoots.

Good day to all :))

Gringo