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View Full Version : Had a few lessons re-affirmed the other night....


DGTigers
July 9, 2009, 03:52 PM
The other night I was trying to get to sleep and I decided to get up to get a bottle of water that I had left in the living room right outside of my bedroom. Just as I walked into the living room I noticed that somebody was trying to open the living room window to get in. I hurried back to the bed room and grabbed my trusty Winchester 1300 defender, and told my girlfriend to call 911 because somebody was trying to break in. I announced my presence (exactly as I learned in my CPL class) as loud as I could with the gun pointed towards the window as the man was sticking his head through the window.

The intruder stopped in his tracks as soon as I announced I was going to shoot if he came inside and left. Moments later the doorbell rings and I hear my roommate yelling my name and that it is him. Apparently he came back a couple days early from visiting family and his cell phone was dead. He had forgot his house key apparently and had rang the doorbell a couple times but I had not heard from my bedroom. After I saw who it was and let him in I went to the phone and my girlfriend to explain the situation to the police and tell them that their help was not needed. To my surprise my girlfriend was still waiting for the police to answer the phone!

This entire situation re-affirmed a couple lessons that I already knew. 1.) You need to be able to protect yourself and your loved ones because these situations happen so fast that the police are most likely not going to be able to arrive in time anyway, and 2.) Even at the most stressful/scary of times when you are feeling that it's "Go time" and you may have to fight for your own well being or your families, you need to keep your cool and not be too quick to use force until you know exactly what and who you are looking down the barrel at. I am very grateful of the training that I learned in my CPL course and the emphasis they put on safety in home defense situations as it made my instincts the right ones and helped avoid a terrible accident.

Needless to say that I didn't sleep too much that night as my adrenaline was still really going. I was also very shocked and upset that the police didn't even answer my girlfriend's call. Is it worth talking to someone about the non-response of my 911 call?

Anyway, I'm new to this site but thought if my story helped one person, it'd be worth sharing. Be safe everyone.

-DG

TailGator
July 9, 2009, 05:01 PM
If you had not been well drilled in the discipline of identifying your target, you would have suffered a great deal, both emotionally and legally - but you did, so well done.

As for dialing 911 and not even getting an answer - yes, I think you should contact whoever needs to know about that to get it fixed - emergency services director, sheriff, county commission, whatever. You might save some lives by complaining about that.

Dwight55
July 9, 2009, 05:40 PM
DG, . . . if it took that long for me to get a 911 call through, . . . THE NEXT DAY would have found a letter to the editor, . . . a call to each county commissioner, . . . a call to the mayor, . . . a visit to the next city council meeting, . . . and anything else I could have done to make a stink about that garbage.

Somebody would have had to stifle me real good to get me to shut up, . . . heck, . . . my blood pressure is probably up just thinking about that.

Give 'em what for, . . .

May God bless,
Dwight

ActivShootr
July 9, 2009, 06:07 PM
Did you stop to think that the dispatchers may have busy handling other emergencies? Unless you live in a huge city, your local county or small town dispatch office may only have two or three people working at one time.

Don't get too bent up about it.

DGTigers
July 9, 2009, 09:40 PM
I assumed they were probably busy with other calls and not on a coffee break, that is the only reason I wasn't down there chewing somebody out first thing in the morning. I just think it shows you that it's an absolute necessity that you are able to protect your family because odds are the authorities will not be able to answer your call and arrive in time if a threat were to present itself.

OldMarksman
July 9, 2009, 10:26 PM
I met a parole officerr last year who lives in a nearby city (second highest murder rate in the nation). He said he had had to call 911 three times and had been put on hold twice.

MTMilitiaman
July 9, 2009, 10:33 PM
I got done with college one semester and moved back in with my parents for the summer to begin work for the next year. My bedroom is in the basement, with a window right above the bed. About 3 in the morning I am awakened by whispering outside the window, which then slowly slides open. My heart thumping in my chest, I reach for the .45 at the head of the bed and level it towards the window. Slowly, the curtains part and a head peaks in. It surveys the room, eyes adjusting to the darkness, before focusing on the muzzle aimed at it from about a foot and a half away. I saw the whites of his eyes get really big, then heard the slurred "Please don't shoot me. It's me, Bob. I'm...I'm drunk..."

It just so happened that my arrival home had coincided with my bro's high school prom. He and a friend had stumbled home, completely sloshed. Since my brother and I shared the same room, he left the window unlocked, so he could get in. My parents lock the doors at night and he had obviously been locked out before. It was sobering to me, if not to him at the time, how close I had come to just shooting the first thing through the window. I almost shot my brother.

Identify your target and beyond!

This is why my current bedstand gun wears an Insight M3X.

Jason607
July 11, 2009, 12:29 AM
You handled it right. You're roomate is an idiot.

About the 911 call, that is unacceptable. Even goverment in many fields are trying to run on skeleton crews. Just wait as goverment gets further bogged down with more roles in our daily lives than ever, we'll see a lot more of this stuff.

DGTigers
July 11, 2009, 02:53 AM
I totally agree and I think even he will at this point. I don't think he knew that I would react that way because he has never grown up around guns and has no experience handling guns other than what I have taught him around the house. He knows that I have multiple firearms and I have taught him how to move them and use them but he is still extremely naive about guns and not used to thinking about things like that. I'm going to try to get him to go tot he range with me in the coming weeks to learn a lot more about all of my guns and how to use them all, but there is only so much you can do with someone that isn't very interested in them. Nontheless, I think that he will be much more careful in the future about "breaking" into the house as he almost had to get his pants drycleaned the next morning.

J.Smith
July 11, 2009, 06:58 AM
Related story. The little woman and my daughter live at home with her parents while I'm away at school during the year. Instead of living in the dorms, I rent a townhouse with 2 other guys who are card carrying lefties. They know I have guns in the house and avoid my room like the plague. We also have a couple of guys on GI bills who live a couple units over. So one night I'm sound asleep door locked Colt Government is beside my bed and my 590 loaded chamber empty hanging on a rack behind my headboard. I am shocked out of sleep by my door slamming open and 2 men in masks charging through the door. I grabbed for colt, but somehow proceeded to grab a statue that sits on my side table, and proceeded to leap out of bed. (My roommates understand that at night when my door is locked it means the room is off limits, you can knock, but don't under any circumstances come in unannounced). Doing the only thing I could, I cold cocked the one closest to me in the head with the granite statue that sits on my side table. I dropped the statue and grabbed the gun and leveled it at the other one's head. Immediately they both started screaming stop its a joke. My roommates came running in and flipped on my light switch and sure enough it was the 2 army guys. They had gone out drinking and apparently thought it would be funny to mess with one of my roommates who is a real lefty jerkoff. They had gotten the rooms mixedup and instead of charging into his room, they had charged into mine. The guy I hit with the statue had a bad concussion, and needed 22 stitches to his scalp. I made a point of chewing my roommates about the neccessity of locking the doors when they come in late, and also complained to the property owner and leasing agent. While a joke is funny, two idiots almost died that night.

They also had to pay for my door and doorjamb they broke through.

orionengnr
July 11, 2009, 10:15 AM
J Smith--
Great story.
Note to self--keep an eye out for a granite statue. :)

To the OP--
Good job. I agree with the people who say that you should contact city council, mayor's office, Police Chief's office, maybe your local newspaper and/or TV station.

TailGator
July 11, 2009, 10:48 AM
J. Smith: You have a better sense of humor than me. Forcible entry by masked intruders - they are lucky to be alive, and if on your jury I would have to vote justifiable homicide. Very, very fortunate for you and them that you did not choose to fire, but as you relate the story they did nothing that would have kept you from that decision.

Brian Pfleuger
July 11, 2009, 11:05 AM
I met a parole officerr last year who lives in a nearby city (second highest murder rate in the nation). He said he had had to call 911 three times and had been put on hold twice.


I've called the police three times in my life, using the general number. All three times were not what I would consider to be emergencies. Teenagers doing brake checks and being generally stupid and once for a VERY minor car accident that kind of thing, just things I thought an officer should check out. All three times I was told "Call 911". I was always taught that 911 was life and death territory, not loud neighbors, not stupid teenagers but house fires, bad car accidents, shootings, robbery in progress, etc.

I think the biggest reason that these cities are having so much trouble with 911 is that they've taught people to call 911 for every little nuisance.

When I call 911 they say "911, what is your emergency." I'd feel pretty stupid saying, "The neighbors dog is loose again." or "Some guy just backed into me in a the WalMart parking lot." but apparently most people don't.

Doc Intrepid
July 11, 2009, 12:11 PM
911 is something you try to use.

If it works, great.

But don't count on it working. Just leave the phone off the hook while you're on hold. Maybe they will record the sounds of the badguys attacking and the resulting gunshots.

(But don't count on that either...)

Its sort of one of those preliminary steps in your SOP - akin to loading your magazines well in advance.

jfrey123
July 11, 2009, 12:37 PM
DGTigers: Awesome control on your part! The most important aspect of self defense is to identify your target, and by announcing yourself to the intruder when you had the upper hand, you came out on top by far.


J.Smith: Same rule in my home with my roommates. My bedroom door gets locked when I'm asleep. If someone wants in my room that bad, they're going to make a terrible noise as they enter, which should (hopefully) wake me up. But if I wake up to that sort of noise, the roommates are very clear that it will be "Go time".

So this past April Fool's, my roommate gets the bright idea to prank me at 4 am. I have no idea of his plan, so I'm dead asleep. I awake to a furious pounding against my door, and what to me sounds like someone screaming bloody murder and shouting my nickname "Bob". Instantly after I awake the G17 is in my hands, I'm squared away at my door, and the image I have in my head is that my roommate is on the other side begging for help as someone does something unGodly to him. I close distance to my door, hand makes it to the handle, and right as I'm about to fling it open the commotion shops with him now shouting "April Fool's F---er!!!!"

He had his girlfriend record it, and this is what actually happened: the "screaming" I heard was a handheld airhorn he had purchased. He was sounding off the airhorn in various lengths of blasts, yelling my name, and beating on my door. His goal was to wake me up at a very early hour, nothing more. I did inform him of my reaction (many hours later, after the adrenaline was gone) and made sure he understands that my mind goes to the worst possible scenario first. He knows I carry, knows I eat/breathe/sleep self defense, and understands not to do it again.

Wildalaska
July 11, 2009, 01:16 PM
The only error you made was confronting the intruder.

Cover, cower, cellphone. You should have stayed in the bedroom.

WildthenyouwouldhavehadthesafeadvatageAlaska ™

Russ5924
July 11, 2009, 01:34 PM
They were busy, people calling that McDonalds were out of Chicken Mc nuggets. :eek: I have called 911 twice and they picked up right away never a problem.:)

Rich Miranda
July 11, 2009, 01:38 PM
Did you stop to think that the dispatchers may have busy handling other emergencies? Unless you live in a huge city, your local county or small town dispatch office may only have two or three people working at one time. Don't get too bent up about it.

Even if the above was what did occur that night, I still think he should inform PD of it. Maybe not 'complain', but inform. What if they've been considering adding a dispatcher/operator and his call reaffirms that need? If no one tells them about it, they won't know.

Of course, they can't keep an excessive number of people on duty 'just in case'. But if enough people tell them of excessive wait times, perhaps they'll recognize a problem and address it.

Rich Miranda
July 11, 2009, 01:42 PM
The only error you made was confronting the intruder.

Cover, cower, cellphone. You should have stayed in the bedroom.

WildthenyouwouldhavehadthesafeadvatageAlaska ™

Not to question your omniscience ;) , but wouldn't cowering encourage further intrusion and almost certainly lead to a confrontation where violence is more likely?

Seems to me he got the 'intruder' to run off well before he was actually inside, and that it was the right thing to do.

Ian0351
July 11, 2009, 01:56 PM
In the words of a famous American statesman, "A man who sacrifices his liberty for security deserves neither". In this instance the intruder was a person with legal rights to the domicile, however it could just has easily been a home invader, drugged up burglar or serial rapist. "Cower" has never been a word I use regarding the defense of my family, home or country.

Brian Pfleuger
July 11, 2009, 02:19 PM
Unless you live in a huge city, your local county or small town dispatch office may only have two or three people working at one time.

Do you know WHY they have one or two dispatchers? Because they only have one or two emergencies in a shift, generally. Or maybe 5 or 6, but almost never enough to keep two dispatchers tied up at the same time.

The vast majority of 911 problems I have seen are in large metropolitan areas with God only knows how many dispatchers and the reason they're busy is because of people calling 911 because their neighbors stereo is too loud.

Wildalaska
July 11, 2009, 02:42 PM
Not to question your omniscience , but wouldn't cowering encourage further intrusion and almost certainly lead to a confrontation where violence is more likely?


Not to question your question, can you see where confrontation could have resulted in the death of an innocent human being:D

In the words of a famous American statesman, "A man who sacrifices his liberty for security deserves neither"

In the words of another famous American and far more apropos: Testosterone is fleeting, a life sentence is 20 years. Last clear chance saves heartbreak, legal fees and misery. Run thou bravely into the fray, keep thine lawyer on retainer. Me, I cover,cower, cell phone, keeping in mind part of Mao's doctrine: when the enemy advances, withdraw...

WilddefenseisalwaysthebesttacticAlaska ™

Kyo
July 11, 2009, 02:57 PM
the confrontation saved the guys life. If the OP did not confront, just shot when the guy got near, then we might have a problem. You can't decide what will happen if a different choice is made. You can give an option, but no guarantee. I woulda done the same thing. Not confronting the intruder if it was in fact a real intruder might have also been worse. Once inside, the chances of it getting worse just got much higher. But if you catch a guy with his head in a window or midst break in, you have the advantage.
Mao's doctrine is retarded in this situation. My point is not everything you are taught is applicable in situations just because people say so.
Running and hiding yourself to a point where you have no where to go makes no sense to me. If thats right then im wrong

Wildalaska
July 11, 2009, 03:12 PM
Not confronting the intruder if it was in fact a real intruder might have also been worse. Once inside, the chances of it getting worse just got much higher. But if you catch a guy with his head in a window or midst break in, you have the advantage.

Really? Are you thinking critically, or just reacting to the word cower? Makes your skin crawl does it? The fact that it is the best possible solution in virtually ALL home defense scenarios...???

While I realize its far more manly to charge bravely into the face of the enemy and confront the scumevilbadanimalskellperp who would dare violate yor home, how would you like to volunteer to show us how that gives you the tactical advantage while considering the following scenario additions:

There is already someone in the house hidden. Your family members are defenseless without you. The lighting is poor and you dont have a flashlight, you are sleepy or hungover. You are backlit and making noise....

Und zo:

Hear noise. Go back to bedroom, grab "trusty" gun.Call 911. Cover and cower in bedroom with gf while shouting: I AM ARMED, I HAVE CALL THE POLICE, LEAVE OR I WILL SHOOT.

Hey dude, wait its me, Phred?

Phred? What the hell..........violins play hosannas and two men embrace, etc.....

As opposed to....Run to window, STOP I AM GONNA SHOOT....intepret motion of dropping back out of window as threat and start pumping slugs....Later outside, you see your FORMER roomate with those big round holes in his chest...

I have said it once and again and again and I will repeat it till you guys start thinking with the big head (or at least just start thinking).....

The best tactical choice you can mke in virtually all circumstances is cover, cower, cell phone.

WildbangbangAlaska ™

Ian0351
July 11, 2009, 03:13 PM
Cowering generally implies, as Kyo points out, that there are no options/exits left. Mao's doctrine generally leads that, having taken territory, one can tactically retreat to gain a defender's advantage should hostile forces advance. Moving into the house to investigate does not mean that you cannot retreat to a position of relative safety (such as a bedroom or 'safe-room'), but staying in the bedroom from the get-go may make it much harder to advance into the main area of the house... especially important if you have dependents who do not sleep in your room.

Ianthebestdefenseisagoodoffense0351

Vanya
July 11, 2009, 03:14 PM
Do you know WHY they have one or two dispatchers? Because they only have one or two emergencies in a shift, generally. Or maybe 5 or 6, but almost never enough to keep two dispatchers tied up at the same time.

The vast majority of 911 problems I have seen are in large metropolitan areas with God only knows how many dispatchers and the reason they're busy is because of people calling 911 because their neighbors stereo is too loud.

Yes, indeed. And in my semi-large metropolitan area, just TRY finding the non-emergency police number in the phone book... it's buried deep in the Gummint pages, and, I swear, wasn't there at all in one earlier edition. You'd think the phone company could be persuaded to put the regular number on Page 2, in large type...

Testosterone is fleeting, a life sentence is 20 years. Last clear chance saves heartbreak, legal fees and misery.

Or, as Hippocrates might have put it, "Virtus brevis, carcer longa, iudicium periculosum."

Now I'll prolly get flamed for the "manhood is short" thing... oh, well. :D

Brian Pfleuger
July 11, 2009, 03:20 PM
We should not confuse cowering in the best location with cowering in the furthest corner. No one is or was suggesting that you hide in the deep, dark recesses of your closet and leave the kids to fend for themselves. Making sure everyone is safe is an obvious prerequisite. If that requires temporarily taking position in a hallway while the rest of the family moves to the safety of one room then so be it. That is an entirely different tactic than saying "Well, my family is in two different rooms so I'd better charge the bad guy lest he gets in the house first.

Ian0351
July 11, 2009, 03:50 PM
I think certain persons also made assumptions about 'charging into the house'. According to the OP, he had simply been going into the room for a beverage and observed the potential interloper, then choosing to arm himself and investigate/defuse the situation, rather effectively.
Having read this forum for a little while now, I make no assumptions about what a person may or may not do in a given situation outside of the literal ramifications of their posting. Especially so regarding 'Tactics and Training'.

Rich Miranda
July 11, 2009, 04:14 PM
Call 911. Cover and cower in bedroom with gf while shouting: I AM ARMED, I HAVE CALL THE POLICE, LEAVE OR I WILL SHOOT.

Well, now this is different. You made no mention of shouting out a warning in your first post. Of course you're better off this way.

The only reason I had disagreed with you was because if you 'cover, cower' and are silent, they'll just keep coming until they are right on top of you. Then, all that's left is confrontation.

DougO83
July 11, 2009, 04:31 PM
RE: the word "cower"

WA is only using the definition that suits his agenda. There are 3 or 4 others that, in fact, imply running away in fear, etc. They are in another thread here somewhere.

RE:OP

I don't know that I would have returned to my room and retrieved a firearm, but it is likely. I certainly would have grabbed my .357 and put myself between the perceived threat and my loved one.

As far as the 911 call, it happens more often than one would like to think and, contrary to the incorrect opinion of some, it has nothing to do with the number of emergencies that may happen on a shift. That notion is ridiculous. It is a matter of population and funding. Small towns have less cops and auxillary personnel because they have less people to tax for money.

Wildalaska
July 11, 2009, 05:37 PM
WA is only using the definition that suits his agenda

Exactly. Agenda: Separate the thinkers from the thumpers.:D

The day you pull that trigger is gonna be the worst day of your life, rightly or wrongly. Make sure that you alleviate the misery, guilt, questioning, financial consequences, legal consequences et seq by being right

WildcccAlaska ™

skydiver3346
July 11, 2009, 07:31 PM
Quote: "The day you pull the trigger is going to be the worst day of your life"....

Maybe so Ken, but so can NOT pulling the trigger end up being the worst day of your life.... When I got attacked a few years back by 5 dudes in a Hilton Hotel parking garage (they came at me from all sides and held a sharpe knife to my throat from behind, cutting my neck), I would have given anything to have a gun but I didn't carry back then. I would not have thought twice about pulling the trigger when that happened. I still feel the same today, if not more so.

Now that was out in the open and not in my home (as DGTigers experienced). When in your home, it's even more justified to shoot, (Castle Doctrine). But I do see your point about it being a traumatic experience and something you would have to carry around for a long time. So is getting shot by the bad guy or your family being attacked, etc.

The roommate is a complete dummy and is extremely lucky he is still with us. Bottom line, be prepared. Some folks may want to warn the dirt bag (with a loud yell) that you have a gun and will shoot him if he does not leave immediately. Myself, I really don't care to yell at anyone who is breaking in my home myself as it could give my position away. Whatever happens after that, is up to the decision the intruder makes from then on. So be it.

J.Smith
July 11, 2009, 08:50 PM
Identify Threat
Judge Level of threat
Decide on Course of action
Execute correct amount of force

You've got 2 seconds.
Go
................

skydiver3346
July 11, 2009, 09:55 PM
Yep, (2 seconds), as JSmith just said. That is about all the time you will have when it actually goes down. You are lucky if the intruder is not armed, (but more than likely, he is armed and may have others with him)....

Hopefully, the time never comes, (when you have to respond to a situation like this). But when and if it does come, you won't have a lot of time to figure out what you are going to do and/or how you are going to implement your actions.

Be prepared!

Kyo
July 11, 2009, 10:09 PM
Hey wild you do it your way and I will do it mine. Its like arguing whats the better gun. I really don't care. I am not talking about the word cowering. I am saying even if you retreat, why would you retreat to an area you can't get out of? Why put yourself in that hole?
You assume that because people aren't you that they would screw up with all these fantasies about being heroes. Its not even about that. It is about common sense. The bad guy has outside to go. You have where? Deeper in the house? Really?
Just because you named a few additions to the same situation doesn't change anything. You can have a flashlight but it gives away your position.
I will say it again for you personally. Just because YOU think its the best option, doesn't mean it always is. You are just arguing this for the sake of being right for all of 5 seconds. Ok, your right in your head. fine. Not in other peoples heads.
What if you are on one side of the door in a room and your kids are in the other. You gonna go hide in a corner? What if you are on one floor and people are on the other. Gonna go cower then? Really? It isn't so black and white.

Sixer
July 11, 2009, 10:18 PM
Separate the thinkers from the thumpers.

Every single thread, regardless of the original topic, is turning into the same discussion. The fact is that it's not always so black and white. There is a gray area and most of us thinkers have a bit of "thump".

The day you pull that trigger is gonna be the worst day of your life, rightly or wrongly.

Nope, the day I hesitate to pull the trigger or "cower" and watch myself or loved ones get injured or killed will be the worst day of my life.

Brian Pfleuger
July 11, 2009, 11:26 PM
Yep, (2 seconds), as JSmith just said. That is about all the time you will have when it actually goes down. You are lucky if the intruder is not armed, (but more than likely, he is armed and may have others with him)....

Most burglars are unarmed and alone. It's entirely possible that they will be armed and not alone but that most certainly is not "most".

Lost Sheep
July 12, 2009, 03:02 AM
(edited for brevity and focus)
I was also very shocked and upset that the police didn't even answer my girlfriend's call. Is it worth talking to someone about the non-response of my 911 call?
Welcome to the forum, DGTigers and thanks for sharing.

I would definitely let someone know. If your police department has a citizen's liason office, let them know. Your city council probably holds the purse strings to resolve problems with the 911 system.

Yes, work to improve the 911 system. For yourself and others.

Lost Sheep.

Lost Sheep
July 12, 2009, 03:31 AM
Cower: to shrink away or crouch especially for shelter from something that menaces, domineers, or dismays

Cower suggests a display of abject fear in the company of threatening or domineering people <cowering before a bully>.

Perhaps Wildaslaska might consider a more appropriate wording, such as "take a defensive position"? Of course, that does not have the cool alliteration.

Lost Sheep.

TailGator
July 12, 2009, 06:53 AM
A new scenario seems about to burst into the same old flames and arguing about the meaning of the word "cower" all over again.

WA, your point that shooting is not the first option is well taken, but picking up a pistol does mean that your testosterone has taken over your brain. OP kept his wits about him rather well, I would say, by keeping in mind the principle of identifying his target before firing. We haven't seen the floor plan of his house, so it very well may be that he was already in the best position to defend himself and the other resident(s) of the house for which he felt some responsibility. Talking about how bad he would feel with his housemate on the ground outside dead is not really productive, because the OP did use his brain and his training and the result was that he did not wind up in a regrettable situation.

Perfect doesn't happen very often - pretty darn good is, well, pretty darn good.

Re4mer
July 12, 2009, 07:59 AM
About the 911 call, that is unacceptable. Even goverment in many fields are trying to run on skeleton crews. Just wait as goverment gets further bogged down with more roles in our daily lives than ever, we'll see a lot more of this stuff.

I understand what you are saying its never good to do an unneeded 911 call, but in his defense at the time he made the call he did not know who it was so it was the right thing to do given the information he had.

Mello2u
July 12, 2009, 10:29 AM
Make a lot of noise to the appropriate agencies to let them know that your call went unanswered.

It is the nature of government to only address those issues which will affect their reelection. The people who are dependent on government know the system and how to get their benefits. You as a tax payer are entitled to emergency services that work in a reasonable manner. If you do not let them know, there is no chance of improvement. Even if you let them know the chance of improvement is small.

Maybe a call to the local TV station or a letter to the editor might improve the system if a direct approach to the government does not yield improvement.

The amount of assets which politicians allocate to the 911 system is proportional to what their perception of the need is. The more they hear about failures the more money they tend to put into it. If there are no complaints then they assume it is working, and might even cut the budget.

20 years ago I was with a sheriff's department in Mississippi that only had one dispatcher that also took the 911 calls. The dispatcher also ran the computer checks on the license plates, VINs, and driver's licenses we called in too. That County only had a population of about 40,000 and over 800 square miles and only two deputies on patrol at any given time. Most of the population was concentrated in one city with about 30,000 that had it own police department. The deputies got paid $500 every two weeks. Our radios only covered about 95% of the county. Small budget.

Wildalaska
July 12, 2009, 10:33 AM
WA, your point that shooting is not the first option is well taken, but picking up a pistol does mean that your testosterone has taken over your brain. OP kept his wits about him rather well, I would say, by keeping in mind the principle of identifying his target before firing.

For many folks, the gun makes them feel invincible and/or manly. You see it hear all the time. Look at the vitriol tossed at the CCC rule. Look at some of the responses here

The OP went back into the bedroom to retrieve his shotgun and then left to confront the intruder. All of the correct steps he took in IDing the target and not shooting could have been done from a place of cover whilst shouting I've called 911, get out of here I'm armed and going to shoot. That would have permitted verbal response without the potential of gesture misinterpretation.

But hey, folks would rather screech and puff their chests than analyze stuff with a goal to ensuring the best possible outcome.

WildjustblowemawayiftheylooksidewaysatyouAlaska TM

OuTcAsT
July 12, 2009, 11:16 AM
When I got attacked a few years back by 5 dudes in a Hilton Hotel parking garage (they came at me from all sides and held a sharpe knife to my throat from behind, cutting my neck), I would have given anything to have a gun but I didn't carry back then. I would not have thought twice about pulling the trigger when that happened. I still feel the same today, if not more so.



Well now, this explains a lot, you were once victimized, and have now prepared yourself for the worst, that is fine. You have taken on the mindset that "I will not be a victim again" and that is also fine...to a point. If you react out of fear of that past event, and act inappropriately, that night in the garage may turn out to be one of the better of your days.

The roommate is a complete dummy and is extremely lucky he is still with us.

There is no question this was a stupid move, and if he were your roommate, he would likely not have been so lucky considering this;

When in your home, it's even more justified to shoot, (Castle Doctrine)

And This;

Some folks may want to warn the dirt bag (with a loud yell) that you have a gun and will shoot him if he does not leave immediately. Myself, I really don't care to yell at anyone who is breaking in my home myself as it could give my position away.

In the OP's case, his warning not only got the "dirt bag" AKA: his roommate, to leave, but come back and announce himself. Had he remained silent, and the roommate advanced, well, likely could have gone badly. The OP was prepared, but used some common sense to attempt to "identify" the threat.

Whatever happens after that, is up to the decision the intruder makes from then on

So, under the presumption that you would not announce that you are armed, and are gonna wait Yep, (2 seconds) Then take action, how would this situation have played out at your house ? Would you be able to justify (in your own mind) that you had killed your roommate ?

skydiver3346
July 12, 2009, 11:31 AM
:rolleyes: Well OutCast, at least you are consistent.

I would not expect your response to be any different than your normal (give the bad guy a break) slant on these type scenarios. A lot of us out there look at these home invasions a lot different than you do........

OuTcAsT
July 12, 2009, 11:33 AM
The OP went back into the bedroom to retrieve his shotgun and then left to confront the intruder. All of the correct steps he took in IDing the target and not shooting could have been done from a place of cover whilst shouting I've called 911, get out of here I'm armed and going to shoot. That would have permitted verbal response without the potential of gesture misinterpretation.

No Ken, that would make too much sense, and, some seem to think, takes away some sort of imagined "tactical advantage" by possibly "giving away your position".

If I am in a defensive position, I really do not see that I have lost any tactical advantage by announcing I am armed, aware of the BG's presence, and am prepared to shoot if necessary. I have just drawn a line in the sand, nothing more. If you are in a combat situation, outside, you may keep a tactical advantage by staying silent, inside , that advantage is moot.

Ask any LEO, or Soldier, or Marine, who has experience with clearing a building, they will tell you that ; Even knowing which room an armed person is in does not lessen that persons advantage to defend from inside by much, if any. Unless you are defending against an overwhelming force (SRT, large offensive force) You have lost no advantage, and might well diffuse the situation before violence erupts.

OuTcAsT
July 12, 2009, 11:42 AM
A lot of us out there look at these home invasions a lot different than you do........


We are not discussing a "home invasion" We are discussing the OP's response to his roommates bad decision making. As someone pointed out, this is not black/white, but has a shade of gray. Now, care to answer my question ?


I would not expect your response to be any different than your normal (give the bad guy a break) slant on these type scenarios.


This has nothing to do with "giving the BG a break" It's about identifying a threat before you pull the trigger, you remember, one of the "Rules" ? Give yourself a break.

Pbearperry
July 12, 2009, 11:42 AM
The 911 system only works well if the community has a normally high IQ.Every phone system has only so many operating lines and people screening the calls.Having 100's of calls from people asking if there is school today because of snowfall can wreak havoc on a system.Happens all the time.

skydiver3346
July 12, 2009, 09:49 PM
:p Yadda, Yadda, Yadda. The same old story. Don't do this and you shouldn't do that, etc., etc.

You need to give yourself a break and open YOUR eyes. You don't have all the answers my friend, (any more than I do). I am trying to explain about how I would handle these type scenarios in my home.

Try reading your own personal quote (at the bottom of each of your posts),
"Without freedom of THOUGHT, there can be no such thing as wisdom".... Exactly right! Other folks have ideas too.

MLeake
July 12, 2009, 10:08 PM
... would wind them up in prison, based on the things they say on this forum.

A lot of us know people who've startled friends and relatives when coming home unexpectedly. Probably more than a few of us have broken into our own homes, having mislaid keys or locked them in the car. Probably more than a few of us did this not wanting to wake up sleeping family, and not realizing quite how much noise we'd make raising that window that's never locked...

Probably more than a few of us have had roommates or relatives come home drunk, and try to enter the wrong doors.

Probably more than a few of us have had strangers mistake our place for our neighbor's down the road, with whom they are supposed to stay.

Shooting at things that go bump at the night is risky. Some folks seem pretty glib about the concept. Being prepared to defend doesn't mean you have to itch to pull a trigger.

skydiver3346
July 12, 2009, 10:51 PM
:confused: Who said anything about "itchy trigger fingers" and/or wanting to "shoot anything that goes bump in the night"? Those are your comments, not mine! You tend to put words in other people's mouths. If you actually read all of my post, you would see that I was referring to how I would address the intruder situation in MY home. I stated that (at night) you may only have a few seconds to recognize the threat and defend yourself before being attacked, (or in this case identifying your roommate). I never said shoot the guy as he is coming through the window. In the original scenario, the roommate was entering the home through a window (unannounced, just like a burglar would do). In either case, I would still be prepared and ready to react. Why? Because as you are standing there trying to have a discussion with this guy (to see if he is a drunk neighbor, roommate, or a real armed burglar) he may decide to plug YOU with a few holes while you are talking to him.......

My personal decision would be to blast the guy with a scorching 105 lumens of blinding light from my tactical flashlight (attached to my Glock 21) and identifying the intruder in short order. After that, if he doesn't immediately leave my home he has definitely made a bad decision, I can tell you that. That whole situation requires very little time (a few seconds at most) to identify the "intruder" coming through the window (friend or foe)....

DGTigers
July 12, 2009, 11:34 PM
Wild Alaska:

You might not have done much different than I did if you knew my exact layout of my house. The window he was coming through was probably 20 feet from my bedroom door. My girlfriend was in there and the nightstand that the phone was on also had my loaded 9mm handgun. She is very well versed in firearms herself so I'm not sure what she did as soon as I walked back out of the room but I would be very surprised if she didn't have that pistol in her hand or at least within reach if she heard a struggle take place. The door to my bedroom could see the window he was trying to enter through and I had only my bedroom or the bathroom in which to retreat behind me. My first thought was to protect myself and my loved ones and by placing myself between my loved ones and the intruder. We might still disagree that I should have went and waited in the bedroom with my girlfriend, but that also could have resulted in a bad situation if my roommate came to my door to say "hi". If I had been home alone at the time, my actions might have been different. However, I had to think about a little bit more than my own well being and my LCD tv.

I do appreciate the critique and I have definitely ran tons of scenarios through my head trying to determine if I could have handled the situation better even though the outcome was as good as I could have hoped for.

OuTcAsT
July 13, 2009, 06:08 AM
My personal decision would be to blast the guy with a scorching 105 lumens of blinding light from my tactical flashlight (attached to my Glock 21) and identifying the intruder in short order.

At least you are learning something, as your original response was;

Some folks may want to warn the dirt bag (with a loud yell) that you have a gun and will shoot him if he does not leave immediately. Myself, I really don't care to yell at anyone who is breaking in my home myself as it could give my position away.

I think anyone would take that to mean you had no intention of identifying the threat, that's how it reads. You originally were concerned about "giving your position away" You have now articulated that you do not feel that to be a sound strategy as you plan to "blast him with 105 Lumens" Thus identifying the threat. (that light will also "give away" your position, particularly if it is weapon-mounted, but that is, as I said before, a moot point)
Perhaps we are not as far apart as you might imagine, you just need to get off the defensive "soap box" and explain yourself a tad more clearly and completely.

I am trying to explain about how I would handle these type scenarios in my home.

And that is certainly your right to do so, however It seems clear that when someone points out different strategies, that put you at a lesser risk of making a fatal mistake, you take offense to that. No offense is intended, merely trying to share some knowledge based on experience. If it bugs you that much, take it with a grain of salt. Hopefully someone else may come away with more tactically sound ideas. MLeake said it perfectly;

Problem is, some other folks personal ideas...
... would wind them up in prison, based on the things they say on this forum.


This is not to much about personal criticism as it is broadening the lexicon of rational thought. I certainly would not claim I "have all the answers" but I do have a few ideas that have managed to get me through nearly five decades, and to remain alive, (through several defensive situations) and, on the right side of the law.

skydiver3346
July 13, 2009, 07:54 AM
Your quote: "At least you are learning something"......

Yep, too bad you can't be that adaptable. :rolleyes:

pax
July 13, 2009, 09:16 AM
Closed.

pax