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Bud Helms
July 6, 2009, 08:42 AM
There are an increasing number of multiple gun photos being entered in the monthly contests. Rule #1 and the supplemental paragraph, Tips, list specific exceptions to that rule. Read the rules, especially Rule #1 and "Tips" in Rule #1. Multiple guns in a photo will be tested against Rule #1.

Pictures that have the theme of a commercial flyer, whether or not you took the trouble to make it up for entry here, are not in the spirit of the contest. If your entry contains text overlay that lists the features of your gun and take on the appearance of a commercial flyer, it will be deleted.

IdahoG36
July 6, 2009, 01:40 PM
Seems like too many rules and restrictions for what is supposed to be a fun contest. Limiting somebody's creativeness to fit a certain format doesn't seem fair.
I can definitely see limiting everybody to one entry per month, but restricting the amount of firearms in the pic or the content of the pic is not acceptable in my opinion.
Don't forget, the photo of the year for 2008 had multiple firearms in it.

I see that you deleted another member's photo from the July contest that contained a Baby Eagle with the specs listed. That was a photo that somebody took the time to compose and edit for the enjoyment of other TFL members that participate in the contest. That doesn't seem to matter, as it was deleted.

I'm not trying to cause any problems, but I am not happy with these rules, and maybe some other TFL members feel the same. Just thought you might like some feedback.

RockyTop
July 6, 2009, 03:55 PM
I'm fairly new here, but I just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents anyway. Since this is a photo contest - and not a poster contest, brochure contest or a photoshop contest, I don't see a problem with just taking an artistic photo of a firearm and then entering it. While I do think some of the 'posters' look cool that's not what this is about. Although that may be a good idea for another contest.

Renny
July 6, 2009, 05:54 PM
My photo got deleted to, i did read the rules but i did not catch the two guns in one pic rule...to bad...almost every winning photo of 2008 had more than one gun in the picture

Smokin_Gun
July 7, 2009, 01:49 AM
Must be why mine got removed too...a Walker and a Dragoon. Well ya may as well take off the one i jus' posted top replace it then...I'll find a single Gun pic maybe...

Freakdaddy
July 7, 2009, 09:54 AM
I'm in full agreement with Idaho. Although it's good to have rules and guidelines to maintain structure, you need to be careful as there's also a fine line between fun and totalitarianism. I don't see any reason not to allow pics of multiple guns whether they "fit" in with each other or not. If someone want's to submit their entire gun collection than so be it as well. Even the Baby Eagle tech spec submission was fine with me. Would I have voted for it? Most likely not because of the writing overlay but that's just me. I don't think Art's Grandma would have been offended by it so it should have stayed. I don't think any member's submission should be "removed" unless it's distasteful or a hijacked photo from a manufacturer's website. What's next, no Photoshop effects? That's going to be bad news for Doogle LOL!

I've entered every one of these since it's inception and I look forward to seeing what new pics are going to get posted. I enjoy the creativity that many members have shown over the past year and it's great to see how much it has grown both in talent and participation. We need to get "back to basics" with minimal guidelines and expectations to maintain the initial purpose of the TFL Photo Contest...to have fun with a little friendly competition thrown in. I'm afraid if it becomes to regimed, participation will die off and we won't get to see all those wonderful gun pictures...which really is what it's all about.

Bud Helms
July 7, 2009, 10:39 AM
Well ... listen, these rules are not the type that can't be changed. If you guys want to allow some more leeway, there is no reason why we can't loosen up the rules some. This is supposed to be for fun.

Understand that we were just trying to keep things even and fair. If the new two gun rule is hampering the contest, then we can ease up on it. I notice there is another with two Dan Wessons I have not deleted yet.

How about this. I'll go back and undelete those entries that had two handguns in them ... if you guys want to open this up to distance shots of collections, I don't have a problem with it because it's a popularity contest: best photo wins. We can completely do away with a limit on the number of guns in a photo. That's up to you guys. But let's finish this July Contest with a limit of two, and we'll be liberal on that ... then I'll start a poll and try to get some opinions from you guys. Then in August we'll try to implement the results of the poll in August. There may be more than one poll to cover what you guys want to change. So chime in here and let's find out what you'd like to see polled for changes in the contest.

As far as the entries that look like manufacturer's flyers, I have a problem with them because we would have to go to the manufacturers website and search to make sure it wasn't a copy. That's not fair either. I already did that once a few months back. [Edit: we can leave these in the contest if you guys, the competitors, will go out and research the legitimacy of the photo.]

For those of you that had entries deleted, you may need to go back and reattach the photos. If the edit timer has timed out, just make another entry and I'll delete the first entry. It would help if you sent me a PM that you had to re-enter.

Fair enough?

Bud

Bud Helms
July 7, 2009, 10:57 AM
Okay, I have restored Smokin_Gun's entry and JohnPaul's entry.

One of these is a mfr's flyer type of entry ... up to you guys to prove it's not legit. ;)

Doogle
July 7, 2009, 11:13 AM
...& contests have rules. Part of creativity is to work within those rules.

Something to avoid, as much as possible, are rules that leave Bud having to make value judgements that leave him open to criticism.

One gun, two guns, a thousand...I don't mind.

hogdogs
July 7, 2009, 11:13 AM
Since it is a photography contest rather than a "pretty gun" contest... Multiple guns doesn't bother me. So long as there is all the qualities of a nice photo. But the text shouldn't be allowed as it totally ruins the photo aspect like sneezed scrambled egg all over the image.
Brent

Bud Helms
July 7, 2009, 11:33 AM
Thanks for that, Doogle.

hogdogs, I personally don't like the text overlay pics, ala mfr's flyer, but you know what(?) ... the voting will weed them out.

Freakdaddy
July 7, 2009, 11:38 AM
Sounds more than fair Bud. Thanks for listening.

But the text shouldn't be allowed as it totally ruins the photo aspect

I agree as it does take away from the photo and may be opening the door for all kinds of "sayings"...kind of like the motivational posters you see so often on the forums. Today it may be the specs of a weapon, tomorrow it may be "1911...It's what Jesus would shoot". Whatever the decision, let's implement it next month as well so no pictures get the boot again this month.

the voting will weed them out.

Precisely.

Bud Helms
July 7, 2009, 12:20 PM
Okay, you guys go to the photo contest rules (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=297618) thread and look for bolding and strikeouts. There are changes to support this agreement we have. Any changes I should have made and missed ... PM me.

Bud

IdahoG36
July 7, 2009, 01:29 PM
Well ... listen, these rules are not the type that can't be changed. If you guys want to allow some more leeway, there is no reason why we can't loosen up the rules some. This is supposed to be for fun.

Understand that we were just trying to keep things even and fair. If the new two gun rule is hampering the contest, then we can ease up on it. I notice there is another with two Dan Wessons I have not deleted yet.

How about this. I'll go back and undelete those entries that had two handguns in them ... if you guys want to open this up to distance shots of collections, I don't have a problem with it because it's a popularity contest: best photo wins. We can completely do away with a limit on the number of guns in a photo. That's up to you guys. But let's finish this July Contest with a limit of two, and we'll be liberal on that ... then I'll start a poll and try to get some opinions from you guys. Then in August we'll try to implement the results of the poll in August. There may be more than one poll to cover what you guys want to change. So chime in here and let's find out what you'd like to see polled for changes in the contest.

As far as the entries that look like manufacturer's flyers, I have a problem with them because we would have to go to the manufacturers website and search to make sure it wasn't a copy. That's not fair either. I already did that once a few months back. [Edit: we can leave these in the contest if you guys, the competitors, will go out and research the legitimacy of the photo.]

For those of you that had entries deleted, you may need to go back and reattach the photos. If the edit timer has timed out, just make another entry and I'll delete the first entry. It would help if you sent me a PM that you had to re-enter.

Fair enough?

Bud

I think that is very fair. Thank you for being open to discussion about the rules as well, instead of saying that's the way it is, live with it.:D

I think that starting a poll to see what everybody thinks about multiple gun pics and advertisement-like pics would be a good thing to do. See how people feel about it and go from there.

J.Netto
July 7, 2009, 03:06 PM
I think that is very fair. Thank you for being open to discussion about the rules as well

I agree, and thanks again Bud for helping me earlier today. :)

James

Bud Helms
July 7, 2009, 05:00 PM
No problem, gentlemen. As long as we maintain a spirit of fairness and you guys police each other, the contest is foremost. I've never seen such beautiful pics.

Bud Helms
July 8, 2009, 10:05 AM
Well, I'm having trouble building a poll. 'Can't seem to assemble the ideas to vote on, cause we've taken care of the one we had on the table, at least as far as I'm concerned.

Why don't you guys just come to this thread and make suggestions? We can discuss ideas right here. Are any of the existing contest rules too restrictive? Do any of the rules need to be maybe modified?

Brian Pfleuger
July 8, 2009, 10:10 AM
We need to make the mods work more....;)

Not monthly contest, but monthly contestS.

One pistol
One rifle
One pistol with one rifle
Two pistols
Two rifles
Two rifles with two pistols
Three or more pistols with one rifle
Three or more pistols with more than one rifle
and so on....:D:eek:;)

It would be the modern, politically correct thing to do. So many contests that there is only one entry per, ensuring that no one loses.

Freakdaddy
July 9, 2009, 01:02 AM
I sense someone is about to be banned LOL!

Bud Helms
July 9, 2009, 01:04 AM
I would then need to appoint people to monitor and administrate these contests. That'll teach ya.

Doogle
July 9, 2009, 05:45 AM
...after your amendments to the rules, Bud. You've addressed the main point that was raised.

In the end, be it one gun or many, the photographer still needs to produce a good image.

Thanks.

Bud Helms
July 9, 2009, 09:01 AM
Yes, I was thinking maybe it would be more responsive if we just brought our complaints here and if warranted, run a poll on that issue. In other words, deal with any perceived needed changes as they come along.

ClemBert
July 11, 2009, 10:13 PM
So what is the rule regarding using PhotoShop or some other PC tool to manipulate an original photo? I've seen a number of "photos" that appear to me to have been edited with software. I'm not saying I'm against it but I'm saying that in past contests it would appear that some were not playing by "the rules" by either significant enhancements or by creating transparent backgrounds then applying a fake background. Again...not a complaint but it would seem that some people had their photos removed whereas others were allowed to stay. Or am I just smokin' something funny?

Doogle
July 12, 2009, 04:29 AM
...and to similar ends as when I used film and paper techniques in a darkroom. Now I use a computer. Processing is part & parcel of the process for a photographer to create a final image. Processing may include adjustments to contrast, sharpness, colour correction, gamma, etc, or may include use of various filters and effects. This is photography, always has been. Taking the picture is only a beginning.

The rules state : "One picture post (one entry) per member. One angle. One photo shot."

I would expect that what you do with that one shot is up to you. Work within the rules and you should be OK.

Bud Helms
July 12, 2009, 04:44 AM
I'm in agreement with Doogle. At any rate, there's no way we could enforce a rule like "No Photoshopping".

It's ironic. I have a Canon A-1 in my closet. I have a FujiFilm 2400Z. Which one do you think I use? Yeah. I've taken the batteries out of the Canon for long term storage. When you start with a digital image and download it to your computer for printing or uploading here. The issue of manipulation is ... well, you start with size manipulation, and it goes from there. A simple dropdown menu, area selection, click of the button. Sometimes it is so subtle, you never know.

A natural shot seems to be the goal, but antiquing, tinting, sepia effects ... I think we're already there in this monthly contest. Without the original file and the specific application used to make the changes, there's no way to investigate each photo and enforce it. Some of it is obvious and some not so much.

This "new" approach and relaxation of the more-than-one-gun rule relies, without a doubt, on the vote to weed out the artificial. But then ... if that's what you all like it will stay. I look at past winners and I am encouraged at the obvious discerning taste and skills I see here each month. There are some outright professional quality entries here and I don't take it as accidental. ;)

JohnPaul
July 30, 2009, 03:58 PM
...but I will thow in my 2% of a buck as well. Most of my photos are "photoshop'd" as well, mainly because my camera sucks. I am still somewhat confused on all the rules because its just a fun contest, I would enter regardless of "winning"-whatever that means. I just want to see what pictures people take and what they do with the picture. I have been vilified as much as congradulated on my pictures, not sure why, I work hard on them to make them look nice and people claim they are "fake" what does that mean. I took the photo myself and processed it myself:confused:

JohnPaul
July 30, 2009, 04:57 PM
... there is nothing stopping us members that just want to share our photos and others just for fun from having our own monthly "show us your photo's - anything goes july, aug...." post

ClemBert
July 30, 2009, 05:13 PM
My question regarding use of PhotoShop or some other image enhancing software had nothing to do with use of such software to manipulate the light settings etc. It had to do with use of such software to merge two or more separate images together. On the one hand you have some people who are using such software to merge or add text. This is not what I'm talking about. My example had to do with taking a photo of a firearm then making that photo's background transparent then overlaying it on top of another image. Personally, I don't care. I just want to know what the rules are. IMHO, a photo contest is about displaying your one photo image even if processed not merging two photos or images together then calling that your photo. Based on my understanding of the rules or at least the spirit of the rules image enhancement is fine as long as the data being manipulated is already in the photo's image file. In other words, you aren't adding something to the picture that wasn't already in the image file when you "snapped" the picture. I think some of the "photos" I've seen from a few people where they merge two or more images together looks pretty cool! However, in the spirit of a photo contest I don't think they have any place competing with other people who took "one snap" then posted the photo. We just need to know what you can and what you can't do...basically, the rules are vague in this regard. I am for an all out "do whatever" contest or even perhaps a separate contest where you can present these kind of photos.

Bud Helms
July 31, 2009, 04:27 AM
JohnPaul, I take just a tad exception to your position. Since you decided to chime in the way you did, I'll respond. If you don't know the difference between a brochure advertising the technical dimensions and capacities of a firearm vs a simple, clean, eye pleasing image of a firearm in some supporting environment, that won't let you look away, then by all means continue to submit your "brochures". I don't care.

What I do care about is your innocent act, as though you are being mistreated. I don't accept that. The rules in this contest have been applied fairly and evenly from the beginning of this contest. In fact this entire discussion is about relaxing the rules. Despite the rules, there is a spirit to this competition that apparently escapes some of us. I personally don't think you will ever be competitive in this contest with your text-on-image overlay of technical specs. But that's fine. You enter the pics you think will win and the rest of us will vote for the ones we like. If we ever have a technical brochure contest, you will kick butt. I could never produce some of the art I've seen here, but I have made a living as a technical writer and editor and I know the difference between a page from a catalog and an artistic image that needs no explanation to appreciate, when I see it.

... there is nothing stopping us members that just want to share our photos and others just for fun from having our own monthly "show us your photo's - anything goes july, aug...." post We are sharing ... one photo at a time. If you want to share more, that is why PhotoBucket exists. This is a contest.

ClemBert, I sympathize with you, friend. Our approach is, no matter how strict (or vague) the rules, they are the same for everyone. That may not satisfy the really talented, but the fact that I may not have a camera (or other equipment) good enough to compete with some here should not a problem for any one but me and no reason to change the rules. Have no fear: this isn't NASCAR and we won't get into trying to "even the playing field". That's waaay too much work.

To your point: We just need to know what you can and what you can't do...basically, the rules are vague in this regard. ... the rules will continue to be vague in that regard. All I can say is, this was begun for fun and it needs to stay that way. I don't think members like you, Doogle and a few others have anything to worry about from the rest of us in this contest. ;)

So, bottom line is, if you guys want a "no photoshopping" rule, that's fine. But I have no way to determine compliance and it would be on the honor system. I could start a poll for a vote.

ClemBert
July 31, 2009, 11:02 AM
So, bottom line is, if you guys want a "no photoshopping" rule, that's fine. But I have no way to determine compliance and it would be on the honor system. I could start a poll for a vote.

Bud, you are being too kind. My photos are nothing more that amateur shots from an old 2 mega pixel Cannon Elph camera. I just try to take pics with a interesting outlay to them. Nothing more nothing less.

Again, I don't have a problem with the PhotoShopping, et al. I'm just curious to know if it is acceptable to take two images and merge them together. As I said before, if the data in your image you plan to present was not in the original photo file when you "snapped" it then aren't you in fact submitting TWO PHOTOs. The rules are ONE PHOTO. Merging portions of two photos or images into one is not "one snap" of the camera button. Manipulating data already in an image file is not what I'm talking about. It seems to me that simple cleanup of an image file should be acceptable as well as adding simple text to identify the author or the weapon. Let's just have clarification then work as "on your honor" with regard to the rules.

Submitted as JMHO.

Bud Helms
July 31, 2009, 02:34 PM
As I said before, if the data in your image you plan to present was not in the original photo file when you "snapped" it then aren't you in fact submitting TWO PHOTOs. The rules are ONE PHOTO. Merging portions of two photos or images into one is not "one snap" of the camera button.

Well, I see that you do have a point on this. And I had not seen it that way. The rules DO say one photo. I will see if the rules need emphasis or if it is clear as stated. I think this is reasonable.

Bud Helms
July 31, 2009, 03:01 PM
I have changed Rule #1 to reflect this change. There is also a couple of edits to Rule #9 that probably won't affect anything, but everyone needs to put their eyes on them so you can say you know about them.

Doogle
July 31, 2009, 11:03 PM
...as I have to date. If I ever feel the rules have gotten too fiddly for my liking I will retire without a fuss. This contest is, after all, intended to be enjoyable.

For the record, as people may not have a good understanding of how images can be created, I have ensured I stuck to the rules, "One picture post (one entry) per member. One angle. One photo shot." No replaced backgrounds, no elements taken from other images.

However, I must say that the idea of a "snapshot" is quite alien to a photographer :-)

ClemBert
August 1, 2009, 08:27 AM
Doogle, you always have some of the coolest pictures around! I always look forward to seeing yours.

Bud Helms
August 1, 2009, 08:58 AM
See, I expect that from you two, IdahoG36, ScottsGT, Renny, PDBreske, Angus Lincoln and a couple of others here.

There have been a couple of monthly contests that have had two or more entries that could win in any monthly contest.

Rule #12 says, "The winning photo in the monthly contest may not enter that photo again for one year," but it says nothing about the entry that got 12 votes behind a winner that got 13 votes! That #2 pic can come right back next month! ;)

Shadi Khalil
August 1, 2009, 05:54 PM
This is off topic but I think that links to photos should not be allowed. I think all photos should be posted in the thread or deleted.

Bud Helms
August 2, 2009, 04:17 AM
That is an interesting idea. I think so far, the only pics that weren't posted here were the ones that were too large. Still, I like your idea.

PDBreske
August 2, 2009, 06:24 AM
I don't like the idea of forcing entrants to post the images as attachments. The 244KB file size limit is fine for many photos, but some JPEG images may exceed that limit if they have lots of fine grain details (and are thus harder to compress to a small file size). The only way to get around this would be to save the file as a lower quality JPEG, and I cannot stand the way those compression artifacts affect my photos.

If I link to the images on my remote server, I'm not subject to this file size limit, and I'm saving the TFL servers from additional storage requirements.

I would, however, like to see a "maximum pixel dimension" rule. Say, 700 pixels on the longest side? That would permit all users to see good detail without forcing too much side-scrolling on older, smaller computer screens. The only reason to post an image 1200 pixels wide is because you don't know how to reduce it, and there are plenty of people here who can help with that.

Shadi Khalil
August 2, 2009, 10:07 AM
I didn't think of size limitations when posting on the site. I just like a nice uniform look.

Bud Helms
August 2, 2009, 12:15 PM
Hold on a minute ... there are 1) attachments, then there are 2) inline images, then there are 3) links to images. What are we talking about here?

An inline image is visible within the post. It is an image uploaded and hosted on TFL.

An attachment is a link in the post and may accompany an inline image or may not. The attachment may be uploaded from a url or from your computer, but it is uploaded onto TFL.

A link is a url link to an image hosted off site.

Shadi Khalil
August 2, 2009, 05:42 PM
An inline image is visible within the post. It is an image uploaded and hosted on TFL.

That's what I was talking about. If it were up to me, I would make it so all entries would have to be visible within the post. PD raised concerns that I'm sure others share as well...

PDBreske
August 2, 2009, 06:47 PM
After my post I thought about this for a while, and I have a suggestion: Instead of making like Congress and adding to the already complex tax code, how about we make the rules very short and basic?

[Suggested] Contest Rules:

1. One photo per TFL member per monthly contest.

2. Photos must be of a gun or guns personally owned by you.

3. Photos must be posted inline so they display in the post. Inline images hosted on your server are fine as long as they satisfy all other requirements of these rules.

4. The photos must be posted with no accompanying text - this is a photo contest, not a history class - and posted images must be free of descriptive text, including watermarks, logos, ads, etc.

5. Photo dimensions must be within [to be determined] pixels on the longest edge. Decorative borders are allowed, but the border must fall within the aforementioned size limitation.

6. One photo will be chosen as winner by popular vote. Voting will commence within one week after the end of the month and will last for one week. A voting tie will be decided by run-off popular vote.

7. Winning entries my not be re-entered for one calendar year. All other entries may re-enter at any time.

8. After the December winner has been chosen, all monthly winners for the previous year will be entered in an annual photo contest to decide the best photo of the year. Voting in that contest will be similar to the monthly voting scheme.

9. This is only an exhibition. Please: No wagering.

These rules are similar to rules I have seen on photography web sites that I frequent and I think they are pretty fair. Any other suggestions are welcome.

Bud Helms
August 2, 2009, 11:43 PM
'Looks pretty good to me.

Shadi Khalil
August 2, 2009, 11:55 PM
'Looks pretty good to me.

I second that.

Doogle
August 3, 2009, 05:08 AM
...that not including an inline image and/or making the image too large may both mitigate against their chances of success in such a contest.

If you don't have an image display some people may not bother clicking a link to view it.

Displaying an image that is too large, and requires people to scroll around to see it all, reduces the visual impact of the image as a whole.

Please also consider that resizing TOO small does digital images no favours, and most people these days have reasonably sized monitors working at resolutions that allow images a fair bit larger than 700 pixels wide that will display comfortably on screen. Imposing too small a size limit would impose quality restrictions that are neither necessary nor desirable.

I have no issue with text accompanying the images posted. Often I'm interested in the make/model of weapon pictured and many people give that info. I also enjoy thinking up cheesy titles for my pics :-) The current rule limiting it to one sentence seems suitable.

I thought the text within images issue had been resolved, and it was to be allowed.

I would question whether the inline image and image size rule changes are really necessary.

PDBreske
August 3, 2009, 05:32 AM
In my opinion, the rule disallowing text of any kind is the one rule that we do need in a photography contest.

I realize that we aren't all professional photographers, but if I were to post an image of a plain-Jane semi-automatic pistol and say it was used in the war by John F Kennedy, that would possibly sway some people to cast a vote just because they think that's a pretty cool fact. Of course, it would be a complete fabrication, but it would also be an unfair advantage.

If you want to know more about the posted gun, ask in a PM. There are plenty of other threads dedicated to gun knowledge — the photo contest should be solely based on the ability to display an artistic image of a firearm.

grymster2007
August 3, 2009, 08:18 AM
In my opinion, the rule disallowing text of any kind is the one rule that we do need in a photography contest. I like having the make/model of the gun displayed, because I don't always know what I'm looking at. While I personally like knowing what photog equipment was used, I don't really need that info, so I'd be happy with make/model only.

PDBreske
August 3, 2009, 09:54 AM
I feel so strongly about the text issue that I would favor some method of anonymously posting images if that were possible. The fairest way to choose a winning image would be to pick from a group of photos and only photos. No names, descriptions, or text of any kind. Pure photography.

I know this isn't going to happen (due to limitations of the vBulletin software, it's technically impossible without requiring many man hours of behind-the-scenes work by moderators), but it would be great if we could work toward something close.

This is my final comment on the topic. The decision is up to the moderators.

Bud Helms
August 3, 2009, 11:12 AM
Well, we allow a line (short sentence) of accompanying text. Is the issue here the text on the photo? That is the only text I've ever had an issue with.

PDBreske
August 3, 2009, 11:16 AM
I understand the current rules allows a short sentence accompanying the photo, but I'm proposing no text at all anywhere in the post. I know people can't seem to refrain from bragging about their guns, and that's fine, but if we're going to continue with a photo contest, it should be about photos and nothing else, in my opinion.

EDIT: I know I said that was my last comment, but I'm not being understood. There are currently 353,011 threads on TFL with over 3.5 million posts. Surely we can have ONE thread with only photos?

Bud Helms
August 3, 2009, 03:13 PM
That's fine, I just wanted to be clear on what you meant.

Shadi Khalil
August 6, 2009, 02:28 AM
I think the no text rule is a good one. Let the image speak for itself.

Bud Helms
August 6, 2009, 09:23 AM
People may wish to consider...>...that not including an inline image and/or making the image too large may both mitigate against their chances of success in such a contest.

If you don't have an image display some people may not bother clicking a link to view it.

Displaying an image that is too large, and requires people to scroll around to see it all, reduces the visual impact of the image as a whole.

I agree and I've always considered these disadvantages to be self-imposed by the contestant.

I thought the text within images issue had been resolved, and it was to be allowed.

It has been resolved ... it's now come back up for discussion. I don't think it's fair to you, the contestants, for me to keep making changes to the rules based on the last post here, so I'm not making any more changes on-the-fly. This needs to be settled and I'm just reading all this discussion for now. I'd like to see a fairness to the contestants and a fairness to the theme of the contest be part of any more changes.

I would question whether the inline image and image size rule changes are really necessary.

I too don't necessarily agree with a size change to the rules as a requirement to enter. That has always has been a "tip" as in, "If you want your entry to be easily viewed, then make it easy to view." ;) Then, so is the issue of whether an inline image is used versus an attachment the same: not a requirement. So far, we've let the contestant decide how much trouble he/she takes in order to make their entry easily viewable. Another self imposed disadvantage, if you will.

grymster2007
August 6, 2009, 10:29 AM
I think the no text rule is a good one.

I'll reiterate that I like knowing what I'm looking at. Many folks here can immediately identify most guns manufactured in the past century. I'm not one of them, so leaving the option for the poster to identify their entry is something I'd like to see continued. At the same time, I too am not taken by the "brochures", but I don't oppose someone posting them. They are simply unlikely to get my vote. In fact, I care even less for grainy, out-of-focus, cell-phone camera photos of stock 10-22s leaned up against the garage wall next to the rake and shovel. Or heavily photoshopped pics, adding unnatural effects. But I don't think there should be rules against them, simply let the membership decide what makes for a good gun photograph.

PDBreske
August 6, 2009, 10:53 AM
And I'll reiterate that any form of text does not belong in a photography contest. Do we agree this is a photo contest and not a lesson in gun recognition? No one needs to know what gun they are looking at to determine if the photo of it is good or bad.

And again I'll suggest that anyone who needs to know what they are looking at can simply send a PM to the gun owner and ask. If, at that point, you're swayed by his tale of receiving the firearm from his great-grandfather who, on his deathbed, swore the AR15 was given to him personally by the Hawaiian King Kamehameha, then, by all means, vote on it. (I happen to think that story is crap, but Gramps said it happened. He was old and dying so maybe he was also hallucinating. Besides, everyone knows Kamehameha preferred an XCR over an AR any day.)

ClemBert
August 6, 2009, 12:03 PM
And I'll reiterate that any form of text does not belong in a photography contest. Do we agree this is a photo contest and not a lesson in gun recognition? No one needs to know what gun they are looking at to determine if the photo of it is good or bad.

And again I'll suggest that anyone who needs to know what they are looking at can simply send a PM to the gun owner and ask. If, at that point, you're swayed by his tale of receiving the firearm from his great-grandfather who, on his deathbed, swore the AR15 was given to him personally by the Hawaiian King Kamehameha, then, by all means, vote on it. (I happen to think that story is crap, but Gramps said it happened. He was old and dying so maybe he was also hallucinating. Besides, everyone knows Kamehameha preferred an XCR over an AR any day.)

I agree with the highlighted statement. If you find the photo interesting you can PM the gun owner and ask him. Not only will you get the make and model but you can probably get an interesting story and make a new friend; Something that captioned text isn't going to give you.

And while we are reiterating, I would once again stress that a photo contest is not the same as an image contest. If the photo you present contains information in the data file that wasn't there when you "snapped" the picture then most likely you have an image and not a photo. Or, to put it another way your "photo" has been doctored up to contain visual data that wasn't there in the original photo to begin with. I'm not taking about simply using software to enhance the brightness, contrast, hue, saturation, or color balance. I'm taking about merging two image files together, or making the background of your photo file transparent then merging a background from some other photo or image file, or deciding you'll use software to add a texture to the background. If this is an image contest then that is fine. But I think this is a photo contest. With the exception of enhancing the brightness, contrast, hue, saturation, or color balance of the photo the background behind the firearm should remain as it was "snapped".

Please let me know if this is an image contest or photo contest. Just need to know the rules that's all. :D

Bud Helms
August 6, 2009, 02:14 PM
I thought this was understood by all of us.

There is a line/sentence of text permitted in the post which is NOT ON the image that can be used to identify what the gun is. In fact, I think that is the best use of it. It is a keyboard entry.

What we are discussing is text ON THE IMAGE.

PDBreske
August 6, 2009, 04:59 PM
What we are discussing is text ON THE IMAGE.


No, what I was discussing was any text, anywhere in the post. I thought I was clear on that. In fact, I'm sure I was very clear. Just in case:

I SUGGEST A RULE THAT PROHIBITS ANY AND ALL TEXT EITHER AS A SENTENCE NEXT TO THE ENTRY OR AS A PART OF THE ENTERED IMAGE.

This is the easiest of all rules to enforce and the least ambiguous. "Can I have a single line of text?" No. "Can I add text to my image?" No. "Can I describe the pictured gun?" No.

Any other rule that allows even a seemingly innocuous line of text leads to ambiguity and questions. Prohibiting all text makes it easy to keep everyone on a level playing field and I don't see how this can be argued. If you think your photo is enhanced by a descriptive line of text, than you have to agree that text somehow manages to skew the odds of winning in your favor. If you feel the text detracts from the image, you have to agree that allowing the text would subtract from your total vote count.

Why is this so hard to understand?

EDIT: I might add that photos don't lie. Anyone can make up a really cool backstory for a pictured gun and try to win favor with the voters by doing so, but a good photo is a good photo and deserves to stand on its own.

Bud Helms
August 6, 2009, 05:30 PM
Why is this so hard to understand?


Hold on a second there, big guy. This item: "4. The photos must be posted with no accompanying text - this is a photo contest, not a history class - and posted images must be free of descriptive text, including watermarks, logos, ads, etc." Does not alone make that clear.

Let's not get our panties wadded up just because I did not interpret to meet your intentions.

"posted with no accompanying text" and "images must be free of descriptive text, including watermarks, logos, ads, etc." are two different things. They would need to be separated if we were to use your list of rules.

Maybe it's time to start that poll.

PDBreske
August 6, 2009, 06:23 PM
I really hope that's not the only thing you took away from my previous post.

PDBreske
August 6, 2009, 06:40 PM
I think it's clear why a new set of rules would be a good thing. Look at all the questions about what can stay and what must go. It's too complicated! The current rules number twelve and span two full screens on my rather large monitor. My suggested rules number nine and are much less than half a page.

I can see how someone might be confused by my suggestion for #4:

4. The photos must be posted with no accompanying text - this is a photo contest, not a history class - and posted images must be free of descriptive text, including watermarks, logos, ads, etc.

Here's a revised version:

4. Text of any kind is prohibited. Your post may not include anything other than a photo of your gun, and the photo may not bear any text, writing, watermarks or logos other than that which is on the firearm itself.

Simple and easy to understand.

Bud Helms
August 6, 2009, 07:28 PM
I like the idea of condensing the rules. I think we'll do that.

I really hope that's not the only thing you took away from my previous post.

No, but it certainly stood out.

I like #4's rewrite.

Bud Helms
August 6, 2009, 07:35 PM
Rereading, I found this lost (to me) tidbit ...

... but I'm proposing no text at all anywhere in the post. Post #50.

*************

And while we are reiterating, I would once again stress that a photo contest is not the same as an image contest. If the photo you present contains information in the data file that wasn't there when you "snapped" the picture then most likely you have an image and not a photo. Or, to put it another way your "photo" has been doctored up to contain visual data that wasn't there in the original photo to begin with. I'm not taking about simply using software to enhance the brightness, contrast, hue, saturation, or color balance. I'm taking about merging two image files together, or making the background of your photo file transparent then merging a background from some other photo or image file, or deciding you'll use software to add a texture to the background. If this is an image contest then that is fine. But I think this is a photo contest. With the exception of enhancing the brightness, contrast, hue, saturation, or color balance of the photo the background behind the firearm should remain as it was "snapped".

Please let me know if this is an image contest or photo contest. Just need to know the rules that's all.

Well, it is a photo contest ... on the honor system.

Okay, I promise not to use "snapshot" again. ;)

DryGulch
August 7, 2009, 11:24 AM
Does the rule: 1 photo, mesn per month or 1 anytime?

PDBreske
August 7, 2009, 12:13 PM
You may enter only one photo in the monthy contest.

SKULLANDCROSSBONES65
August 7, 2009, 07:52 PM
G'day. I like to know what I am looking at as my ability to identify a firearm is limited. I would not bother to PM every photo entrant each month to ask what the gun was.
If you didn't see the text (image) in the viewfinder when you took the photo and you want/need to add text then type it onto the post.

CraigC
August 16, 2009, 11:49 AM
I like there to be a single descriptive sentence of what I'm looking at. We're not professional judges in a professional photographer's competition. We're shooters who like looking at pictures of guns and when I look at a picture of a gun, I like to know what it is. No accompanying storyline, no fluff. Just a description of what the picture depicts. I think all the nit-picking about text is taking away from the "spirit of the game". This shouldn't be taken too seriously and we shouldn't go out of our way to take the fun out of it.

I also agree that the picture should be contained within the post. I, for one, will rarely click on a link or attachment to see what it is. In the photo contest, I'll just browse right past it.

PS, you don't need a fancy camera to take a good picture. Most of mine were taken with a 12yr old Olympus 1.2MP camera. The biggest thing is proper lighting and I prefer natural settings, such as early morning or late day in overcast weather and no flash. The one I posted for July was taken with a Canon Rebel SLR but it's a rarity and I'm far from a professional.